HCA

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

I don't think it's particularly helpful to suggest being trans is a "new cool fad", quite the opposite.

 

I think it's generally seen by a lot of people in the UK/US certainly on social media as fair game for targeting and ridicule. Certain prolific figures don't help this particularly away from the traditional "mainstream". Young people are likely to get entertainment from watching gaming streamers etc now with how online we all are and there's a hell of a lot of anti-trans toxicity in some of those communities. Not exactly encouraging to someone struggling with transgender identity.

 

Now that's not to say that it's eclipsed homophobic hate or anything (also a very important issue and covered in the HCA), the data shows how prevalent that sadly is but in my own experience as someone in their late 20s I certainly know more people who are comfortable expressing anti-trans views than homophobic ones. There probably are people out there who would rather their kids were trans than gay but I think they'll be a tiny minority, I think if someone wouldn't accept their kids as gay they probably won't want them to be trans either, although again that's purely based off my own experiences.

 

I agree kids need reassured that being gay/lesbian/bisexual, whatever else, is absolutely fine and so it should be, but also I think that saying "awk they'll grow out that trans thing" reminds me of the attitudes of many people towards bisexuals when I was in school, it was seen as a fad that would pass once people stopped being "confused". 

As noted in my posting the stats do indeed confirm that most young people “ grow out of it “ . “ cool fad” was in inverted commas . ! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, boag1874 said:

their kids were trans than gay but I think they'll be a tiny minority, I think if someone wouldn't accept their kids as gay they probably won't want them to be trans either, although

You clearly didn’t understand my posting 

[redjambo]

20 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

As in, 'gender-starved redjambo'?

 

 

Shit, I didn't realise that you know me in real life.

[theshed]

2 hours ago, Pete Elliott said:

 

Scottish drug deaths drop to lowest level for five years

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66572155.amp

Think you will find those are figures from 2 years ago. Drugs deaths went up 10% last year 

[Pete Elliott]

7 minutes ago, theshed said:

Think you will find those are figures from 2 years ago. Drugs deaths went up 10% last year 

Apologies, I hadn’t seen the new figures released a few weeks ago 👍🏻

[JudyJudyJudy]

😂😂

[JudyJudyJudy]

Dearie me . Here was me led to believe its  “ tufton street /right wingers “ who were pushing the “ cultural wars “ . What a silly man he is . 
 

 

[doctor jambo]

6 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

There's no stopping the SNP and their continued successes.

To be fair, this is not really the fault of the SNP.

Anyone who has spent a lot of time with addicts knows that there are many factors at play and until you can deal with the underlying issues then they wont stop.

some will never stop, 

there are now more treatments and options than ever, yet the deaths climb.

we need to stop people starting drugs.

 

[Pete Elliott]

9 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Dearie me . Here was me led to believe its  “ tufton street /right wingers “ who were pushing the “ cultural wars “ . What a silly man he is . 
 

 

His full quote for a bit of context:

 

"JK Rowling's tweets may well be offensive, upsetting and insulting to trans people.

 

"But it doesn't mean that they meet a threshold of criminality of being threatening or abusive and intending to stir up hatred."

 

Not his biggest fan but not sure what’s wrong with what he’s said here tbh.

 

i suspect JKR’s real anger here is at herself as she really has done the govt a huge favour this week.

Edited April 4 by Pete Elliott

[Dawnrazor]

What did JK Rowling say that was upsetting to trans people?

 

 

[Australis]

Scottish football authorities say they have been left in the dark by Humza Yousaf.

They have had no hate law guidance from the first minister, with the Rangers v Celtic game just days away.

 

With Celtic fans being locked out of the stadium they are expecting Celtic supporters to flood the new system with reports about songs Rangers fans will be singing 

 

 

 

A complete and utter feck up.

 

 

[theshed]

39 minutes ago, Pete Elliott said:

Apologies, I hadn’t seen the new figures released a few weeks ago 👍🏻

No probs 👍

[il Duce McTarkin]

12 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What did JK Rowling say that was upsetting to trans people?

 

 

 

Women can't have a penis?

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What did JK Rowling say that was upsetting to trans people?

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What did JK Rowling say that was upsetting to trans people?

 

 

Harry Potter isn’t real . 

[The Real Maroonblood]

51 minutes ago, theshed said:

Think you will find those are figures from 2 years ago. Drugs deaths went up 10% last year 

Although that is terrible I would imagine the majority of people won’t be interested in these statistics are they will have more to worry about.

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 minutes ago, Australis said:

Scottish football authorities say they have been left in the dark by Humza Yousaf.

They have had no hate law guidance from the first minister, with the Rangers v Celtic game just days away.

 

With Celtic fans being locked out of the stadium they are expecting Celtic supporters to flood the new system with reports about songs Rangers fans will be singing 

 

 

 

A complete and utter feck up.

 

 

It’s gonna be popcorn at the ready on Sunday ! 

[boag1874]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

You clearly didn’t understand my posting 

Apologies for any misunderstanding, in your first paragraph you stated “some parents prefer this too” in regards to kids thinking it’d be easier to be trans rather than gay

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, boag1874 said:

Apologies for any misunderstanding, in your first paragraph you stated “some parents prefer this too” in regards to kids thinking it’d be easier to be trans rather than gay

👍

[boag1874]

44 minutes ago, Australis said:

Scottish football authorities say they have been left in the dark by Humza Yousaf.

They have had no hate law guidance from the first minister, with the Rangers v Celtic game just days away.

 

With Celtic fans being locked out of the stadium they are expecting Celtic supporters to flood the new system with reports about songs Rangers fans will be singing 

 

 

 

A complete and utter feck up.

 

 

I’d say that perfectly illustrates a huge part of the problem with Scottish football tbh. The Scottish football authorities are more concerned about people flooding the system to complain about the songs being sung than about what’s actually being sung and what they along with everyone else clearly know & expect will be sung.

[Taffin]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

online has replaced real time.

Dads in particular being absent is a real problem .

Kids have no  stability when they need it most.

The "system" does nothing to encourage family units to stay together, you are better off separating.

The church has pretty much gone.

people are seeking alternative places to belong, and to fit in.

its tragic

IF keeping families together was more of a priority then many ills would be solved, though its not a one size fits all.

 

I'm not sure about that, but appreciate what follows is anecdotal. My parents never separated but I never really felt part of a family unit, we didn't have routines or traditions particularly and weren't church goers. Probably added to by virtue of being an only child. I still had a fantastic youth though, with great friends at a young age.

 

We were probably the last generation who weren't fully online, that only came nearer our twenties really. 

 

I do agree about the general gist, I'm just not 100% sure it must come from a traditional family. Although that said, maybe I'd be less isolated as an adult if I'd had a different lived experience.

 

Who knows. Probably a bit off topic anyway.

[XB52]

1 hour ago, Pete Elliott said:

His full quote for a bit of context:

 

"JK Rowling's tweets may well be offensive, upsetting and insulting to trans people.

 

"But it doesn't mean that they meet a threshold of criminality of being threatening or abusive and intending to stir up hatred."

 

Not his biggest fan but not sure what’s wrong with what he’s said here tbh.

 

i suspect JKR’s real anger here is at herself as she really has done the govt a huge favour this week.

She's just upset that her trolling didn't work.

[XB52]

6 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

With everything else going on in Scotland, homelessness, food banks, drug issues and the elephant in the room sectarianism the fact our politicians have time to spend on this bullshit is quite sad.

Yes, it's terrible trying to ensure all strands of society feel protected. 

 

[Spitonastranger]

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Spitonastranger said:

 

He totally slaughters it. Usually the darling of the " left " too....hhhhhmmmmm mind%%%%

[Spitonastranger]

1 minute ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He totally slaughters it. Usually the darling of the " left " too....hhhhhmmmmm mind%%%%

No darling of the left just being truthful, better slaughtering Tories though 

[John Findlay]

25 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Yes, it's terrible trying to ensure all strands of society feel protected. 

 

Explain to me how they were not protected before this law came into being?

[JudyJudyJudy]

What does the Scottish Hate Crime and Public Order Act really say? | Michael Foran | The Critic Magazine

 

" 

"Some people are genuinely concerned that offensive speech or misgendering could now be a crime. But they didn’t get that idea out of nowhere. It wasn’t just drummed up by those opposed to this Act. They heard it from Police Scotland and out of the mouth of government ministers.

This social context matters when attempting to correct misinformation. The people who have believed what the police and government has told them and become worried are not the ones to be blamed for their reaction to this.

 

Fault lies with people who have responsibility for the Act. If a government minister brought on radio to explain and defend the Act can’t unequivocally tell you that misgendering isn’t a crime and says that’s a matter for the police, you can’t blame people for thinking it might be a crime." 

[Ulysses]

3 hours ago, henryheart said:

 

What you are saying is all perfect sense and is how it all should work.

 

However, the context of my posting was confusion amongst police officers and that created by the wording on the Police Scotland website. Logic would suggest that there should always be evidence of the crime, but there is a problem with the definition of a hate crime which includes the words "understood by the victim or any other person as being motivated (wholly or partly) by malice or ill will towards a social group".  

 

If the wording of the legislation is taken literally, in the case of a recording or written message where there is no doubt about what has been said, no matter how innocent or unintentional, if the victim understands there has been malice or ill will intended then, according to the definition, there has been a hate crime. A non crime hate incident could therefore only apply where there was no proof or evidence. Thankfully common sense is being applied. 

 

    

 

 

I get what you're saying, but it remains the case that it is not for a "victim" to decide if there's been a hate crime.  It is for the police to decide if there's enough in a report to investigate, and only the legal sequence of police, PF and courts can decide if there's been a crime.  If those processes reach the conclusion that there's been no crime.  And if there's no crime then by definition there can't be a hate crime.

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, Pete Elliott said:

His full quote for a bit of context:

 

"JK Rowling's tweets may well be offensive, upsetting and insulting to trans people.

 

"But it doesn't mean that they meet a threshold of criminality of being threatening or abusive and intending to stir up hatred."

 

Not his biggest fan but not sure what’s wrong with what he’s said here tbh.

 

i suspect JKR’s real anger here is at herself as she really has done the govt a huge favour this week.

She's an attention-seeking arsehole, always looking for a fight and a bully on social media.

Being the mediocre author of children's books rammed full of ideas stolen from other authors*, allegedly, does not make one a sage and anyone who treats her every word as gospel is a buffoon.

*https://elftor.medium.com/harry-potter-and-the-possible-plagiarism-of-one-j-rowling-c19f1b05595c

[XB52]

15 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Explain to me how they were not protected before this law came into being?

What is wrong with ensuring that hatred is dealt with?? Our new HCA law just brings us more into line with other countries, including England and Wales. Why is it only if Scotland makes a law does it suddenly become controversial?? Why not just admit you hate the fact we have  a Scottish parliament as that's what it boils down to with the right wing media and their poster buddies on here

[JudyJudyJudy]

13 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

She's an attention-seeking arsehole, always looking for a fight and a bully on social media.

Being the mediocre author of children's books rammed full of ideas stolen from other authors*, allegedly, does not make one a sage and anyone who treats her every word as gospel is a buffoon.

*https://elftor.medium.com/harry-potter-and-the-possible-plagiarism-of-one-j-rowling-c19f1b05595c

 

[John Findlay]

1 minute ago, XB52 said:

What is wrong with ensuring that hatred is dealt with?? Our new HCA law just brings us more into line with other countries, including England and Wales. Why is it only if Scotland makes a law does it suddenly become controversial?? Why not just admit you hate the fact we have  a Scottish parliament as that's what it boils down to with the right wing media and their poster buddies on here

Hatred was dealt with under existing law.

You can't help yourself can you?.

Everyone that has a view different to you is a right wing fanatic, no if buts or maybes.

In my opinion, you are one of, if not, the most narrow minded poster on this forum.

[JudyJudyJudy]

3 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

right wing fanatic,

 

[henryheart]

33 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

I get what you're saying, but it remains the case that it is not for a "victim" to decide if there's been a hate crime.  It is for the police to decide if there's enough in a report to investigate, and only the legal sequence of police, PF and courts can decide if there's been a crime.  If those processes reach the conclusion that there's been no crime.  And if there's no crime then by definition there can't be a hate crime.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. As I said in my most recent response to our conversation, and not the one that you attached to your comments above, "I think you are right; if the police can't prove a crime took place, then a crime didn't take place, regardless of what the "victim" thinks".

 

Edited April 4 by henryheart
further clarification

[Thunder and Lightning]

45 minutes ago, XB52 said:

What is wrong with ensuring that hatred is dealt with?? Our new HCA law just brings us more into line with other countries, including England and Wales. Why is it only if Scotland makes a law does it suddenly become controversial?? Why not just admit you hate the fact we have  a Scottish parliament as that's what it boils down to with the right wing media and their poster buddies on here

 

Here he goes, right wing this right wing that. 😂 

[i wish jj was my dad]

2 hours ago, boag1874 said:

I’d say that perfectly illustrates a huge part of the problem with Scottish football tbh. The Scottish football authorities are more concerned about people flooding the system to complain about the songs being sung than about what’s actually being sung and what they along with everyone else clearly know & expect will be sung.

Agree but sadly it extends well beyond Scottish football.  The authorities have no interest in tackling the most prevalent form of hate in the country.  Governments, polis and media actively ignore sectarianism because the know the crap they would have to deal with if they actually did something about it.  They'd have a lot more to deal with than just a fringe group of noisy social media warriors getting wet knickers.      

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Humza having a mare.

 

You love to see it.

 

Diane ‘Fat Mess’ Abbott will be wanting her race card back pronto but ol’ Donations To Hamas is going to have to cling to it big time now.

 

Looking forward to his resignation speech, which can only be six to eight months away.

[Malinga the Swinga]

2 hours ago, Gizmo said:

She's an attention-seeking arsehole, always looking for a fight and a bully on social media.

Being the mediocre author of children's books rammed full of ideas stolen from other authors*, allegedly, does not make one a sage and anyone who treats her every word as gospel is a buffoon.

*https://elftor.medium.com/harry-potter-and-the-possible-plagiarism-of-one-j-rowling-c19f1b05595c

Alternatively, she's a highly successful author who fights to defend women's rights whilst idiots like Humza seek to undermine them while jealous bitter people post garbage about her online.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Alternatively, she's a highly successful author who fights to defend women's rights whilst idiots like Humza seek to undermine them while jealous bitter people post garbage about her online.

 

 

Shes everything insular , dour , miserable unionists hate . A self made billionaire , worked hard to achieve success . Has opinions they can’t stand and isn’t afraid to express them . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

[Tazio]

8 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Shes everything insular , dour , miserable unionists hate . A self made billionaire , worked hard to achieve success . Has opinions they can’t stand and isn’t afraid to express them . 

This doesn’t make much sense to me. You’re saying dour unionists are all for trans rights and against self made successful people? 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, henryheart said:

 

I'm not disagreeing with you. As I said in my most recent response to our conversation, and not the one that you attached to your comments above, "I think you are right; if the police can't prove a crime took place, then a crime didn't take place, regardless of what the "victim" thinks".

 

 

 

Yep.  I haven’t had a chance to get a proper look at the Police Scotland guidance for how to process this stuff, but the England and Wales version of the procedures is both clear and reassuring. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

The authorities have no interest in tackling the most prevalent form of hate in the country.  

 

That makes sense. However, and at the risk of being pedantic, the object of the HCA isn't to deal with hate, but to deal with hate crime.  How much of what passes for hate behaviour in Scotland qualifies as criminal?

[i wish jj was my dad]

9 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

That makes sense. However, and at the risk of being pedantic, the object of the HCA isn't to deal with hate, but to deal with hate crime.  How much of what passes for hate behaviour in Scotland qualifies as criminal?

Others may have a different view but my interpretation is that repeatedly referring to groups and individuals as f*nian or orange b'stards because of the team they support or church they associate with would be in the eyes of most reasonable people constitute a crime of hate.  

It is openly displayed and witnessed by police and media every week. If the authorities were inclined to tackle it they could. 

[Ulysses]

Just now, i wish jj was my dad said:

Others may have a different view but my interpretation is that repeatedly referring to groups and individuals as f*nian or orange b'stards because of the team they support or church they associate with would be in the eyes of most reasonable people constitute a crime of hate.  

It is openly displayed and witnessed by police and media every week. If the authorities were inclined to tackle it they could. 

 

I disagree.  It can be something we fear, or that we hate, or that horrifies us, or that is plain wrong, but none of that means it's a crime. 

 

That's why, despite the complaints of the naysayers, I'm not sure that the HCA is a bad thing (and before anyone jumps on me that's not the same as saying it's a good thing).  It doesn't seek to criminalise hate; it seeks to penalise crime which has its roots in hate. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

I disagree.  It can be something we fear, or that we hate, or that horrifies us, or that is plain wrong, but none of that means it's a crime. 

 

That's why, despite the complaints of the naysayers, I'm not sure that the HCA is a bad thing (and before anyone jumps on me that's not the same as saying it's a good thing).  It doesn't seek to criminalise hate; it seeks to penalise crime which has its roots in hate. 

I suppose that's a fair way to look at the legislation and how it should be interpreted. On the example I offered, I still think that is projecting hate which i would expect to be a criminal offence that shoud merit action from the authorities. It doesn't particularly frighten or upset me when it is directed at me but it does offend me and it offends me more that the authorities won't take action to prevent or stop it.  Whether this legislation is the vehicle for that action to be taken isn't something I particularly care about but if it makes it easier to prevent or tackle any form of hate crime I am all for it being used. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

46 minutes ago, Tazio said:

This doesn’t make much sense to me. You’re saying dour unionists are all for trans rights and against self made successful people? 

Eh ? 

Edited April 4 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

58 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Shes everything insular , dour , miserable separatists hate . A self made billionaire , worked hard to achieve success . Has opinions they can’t stand and isn’t afraid to express them . 

FI for myself 😂 it’s been a long day 

[Ulysses]

5 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I suppose that's a fair way to look at the legislation and how it should be interpreted. On the example I offered, I still think that is projecting hate which i would expect to be a criminal offence that shoud merit action from the authorities. It doesn't particularly frighten or upset me when it is directed at me but it does offend me and it offends me more that the authorities won't take action to prevent or stop it.  Whether this legislation is the vehicle for that action to be taken isn't something I particularly care about but if it makes it easier to prevent or tackle any form of hate crime I am all for it being used. 

 

I think that's where we differ.  I don't think projecting hate or feeling hate should be a crime.  It's completely ****ing dumb and best left for loser sadsacks, but that's a different issue.

 

[Pete Elliott]

1 hour ago, Tazio said:

This doesn’t make much sense to me. You’re saying dour unionists are all for trans rights and against self made successful people? 

Can’t beat a sweeping generalisation. The problem is that when it’s a sweeping generalisation lifted from social media, rather than your own thoughts, you struggle to understand or engage with any challenge of it.