*** kilmarnock v Heart Of Midlothian - official match thread ***

[Debut 4]

46 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

You'd have Devlin and Hof playing before Beni? 

You think Beni is playing well?

[Berra than you]

I wonder if Beni and Boyce might be rested due to the surface. Neither started the last game there.

[Chimp]

4 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

You think Beni is playing well?

 

Yes. Wasn't at his best on Saturday but didn't do much wrong and no reason to be dropped, especially for inferior players.

[Luckies1874]

1 hour ago, Chimp said:

 

Nieuwenhof for Grant for me. The other 2 changes I agree with. 

 

Yep that's a fair shout and on recent evidence what Naismith Is more likely to do. 

[Chimp]

2 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Yep that's a fair shout and on recent evidence what Naismith Is more likely to do. 

 

Would be really surprised to see Grant start again either way. I don't actually know how many more chances he gets? Given plenty of opportunities to make his mark and never takes it. The odd flash of quality here and there but mostly invisible in games. He's 29, should be in his prime and if he's not by now then I don't see how he ever will be. Would imagine he's on a decent wage too and I'd be happy to see him moved on in January if there were any takers. 

[Luckies1874]

3 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Would be really surprised to see Grant start again either way. I don't actually know how many more chances he gets? Given plenty of opportunities to make his mark and never takes it. The odd flash of quality here and there but mostly invisible in games. He's 29, should be in his prime and if he's not by now then I don't see how he ever will be. Would imagine he's on a decent wage too and I'd be happy to see him moved on in January if there were any takers. 

 

Would agree with that, I said before the match on Saturday that it was another great opportunity for him and against opposition we should be dominating. He didn't impose himself nearly enough, kind of went through the motions and like several other's was pretty poor throughout. I'm not sure he will leave in January though, I think it's looking more likely that Halliday and Haring might be on their way and that Grant will stay until the summer. None of them are good enough for what we need in midfield on a regular basis so I hope that is the plan anyway. 

[Chimp]

10 minutes ago, Luckies1874 said:

 

Would agree with that, I said before the match on Saturday that it was another great opportunity for him and against opposition we should be dominating. He didn't impose himself nearly enough, kind of went through the motions and like several other's was pretty poor throughout. I'm not sure he will leave in January though, I think it's looking more likely that Halliday and Haring might be on their way and that Grant will stay until the summer. None of them are good enough for what we need in midfield on a regular basis so I hope that is the plan anyway. 

 

You're probably right. Grant most likely be here til summer. With Haring I'm not sure where he'd go and if they'd let him leave in Jan, I'm sure I read Naismith saying he was a big fan of him, even though he hasn't started recently. If we do manage to move those 3 mentioned on then that frees up a good chunk of a cash and I think we should reinvest that in 1 proper quality player. No more of these average squad fillers.

[Sooks]

54 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

You think Beni is playing well?

 

I do yes . I would like to see more of Beni and Hoff together actually

[PapaShango]

50 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

Would be really surprised to see Grant start again either way. I don't actually know how many more chances he gets? Given plenty of opportunities to make his mark and never takes it. The odd flash of quality here and there but mostly invisible in games. He's 29, should be in his prime and if he's not by now then I don't see how he ever will be. Would imagine he's on a decent wage too and I'd be happy to see him moved on in January if there were any takers. 

I was disappointed with him on Saturday. However I wouldn't be surprised if he starts on Saturday, I think he is one of the few players in the side who likes the artificial surface, he has always been decent down there and at Livi when others have struggled with it. I might be miles off with that but I wouldn't be surprised if he does. He didn't do a lot wrong at the weekend, just never imposed himself enough for me or got involved. I thought Hoff done what Grant should have been when he came on, carrying the ball forward and breaking the lines. 

[GinRummy]

2 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

Clark

Kingsley. Kent. Rowles. 
 

Oda.  Devlin. Nieuwenhoff Lowry. Cochrane. 
 

Shankland. Vargas 

That works better than the team I expect him to play. It'll be Nieuwenhof and Beni in the middle and Boyce up front. Oda done everything better than Forrest on Saturday so surely he starts

[GinRummy]

23 minutes ago, Sooks said:

 

I do yes . I would like to see more of Beni and Hoff together actually

I think he's improved. Would like to see Beni and Devlin in there, they were great together a couple of seasons ago.

[Percival King]

2 hours ago, Sooks said:

In all honesty though mate , Rangers have not actually done a whole lot better either . Minus the favourable decisions they get that others do not , they would be right in about the swamp with the rest of us . If we beat Kilmarnock away and St Mirren take anything at all , then we are suddenly closer to second than the bottom six 

You're right. There's always what ifs, every club will have them, but if we'd held on for the win at Ibrox a few weeks ago we'd only be 2 points behind them.

[Thomaso]

6 hours ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Fancy us to make it 4 league wins in a row 2-1 HMFC 

On that absolute tip of a pitch anything can happen. No surprise Killie are abysmal away from home on grass pitches.

[soonbe110]

10 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

That works better than the team I expect him to play. It'll be Nieuwenhof and Beni in the middle and Boyce up front. Oda done everything better than Forrest on Saturday so surely he starts

Think Oda would be even poorer than Forrest on defensive duties.  Wouldn’t surprise me if Sibbick starts at rwb on Saturday. Naismith isn’t that adventurous in away games. Killie have a couple of decent wide players esp Armstrong who switches sides pretty regularly in games. Hopefully he thinks will be doing it for us in Jan and doesn’t do anything silly on Saturday. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

16 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

On that absolute tip of a pitch anything can happen. No surprise Killie are abysmal away from home on grass pitches.

Quicker get rid of artificial surfaces the better

[GinRummy]

40 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Think Oda would be even poorer than Forrest on defensive duties.  Wouldn’t surprise me if Sibbick starts at rwb on Saturday. Naismith isn’t that adventurous in away games. Killie have a couple of decent wide players esp Armstrong who switches sides pretty regularly in games. Hopefully he thinks will be doing it for us in Jan and doesn’t do anything silly on Saturday. 

I honestly don’t see how he could be worse than Forrest on Saturdays showing although I will add Forrest has had some good games this season . Had forgot about Sibbick as an option, you could be right there. 

[TheBigO]

5 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I honestly don’t see how he could be worse than Forrest on Saturdays showing although I will add Forrest has had some good games this season . Had forgot about Sibbick as an option, you could be right there. 

Yeah I think Sibbick works for this game for me.  Remember he's very capable of pinning teams back with his athleticism.  I'd suggest he'd have produced as much if not more than Forrest offensively on Saturday (though Oda was the correct sub).  I'd prob go Sibbick RWB.

 

That leaves any one of Oda or Vargas (outside shout for Tagawa) to play right up top and run their line.

[HopeDiouf]

2 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Yeah I think Sibbick works for this game for me.  Remember he's very capable of pinning teams back with his athleticism.  I'd suggest he'd have produced as much if not more than Forrest offensively on Saturday (though Oda was the correct sub).  I'd prob go Sibbick RWB.

 

That leaves any one of Oda or Vargas (outside shout for Tagawa) to play right up top and run their line.

He's also capable of passing it to the opposing striker, or needlessly tripping someone up in the box.

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

He's also capable of passing it to the opposing striker, or needlessly tripping someone up in the box.

Hes also capable of running three quarters of the pitch and slamming home great strikes vs the vermin 

[Thomaso]

59 minutes ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Quicker get rid of artificial surfaces the better

No place for it in the SPL top league. Hopefully Livy go down and take there shambles of a pitch with them!

[HopeDiouf]

17 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Hes also capable of running three quarters of the pitch and slamming home great strikes vs the vermin 

indeed.  more of that and less of the brain farts, and i'd be comfortable with him in the team.  Struggling with the quantity of brainfarts tho.

[1971fozzy]

Always a good away trip , so looking forward to it and would take a win of any kind. 
I think 1-2 to us 

or a 0-0 draw 

 

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, HopeDiouf said:

indeed.  more of that and less of the brain farts, and i'd be comfortable with him in the team.  Struggling with the quantity of brainfarts tho.

He seems to just lose confidence sometimes . He was very good against Motherwell , and before Naismith ****ed up the defence he was excellent against Hibs too

[Berrassobad]

Canna keep up with the constant mind changing over the season - is my summary even close ?

 

Forrest was great - now meh

Grant should be given a chance - but is now old and tosh

Devlin was the golden child then silver - now not on the podium

Sibbick was in, out in out and now doing the hokey cokey - because thats what its all about

Beni was the best thing since sliced bread - now unfit because he lies down despite an acl

Shankland is fat  - and still is

Rowles - remember him ? went from hero to zero yet his stock has risen again

Naismiths a twat - unqualified or qualified -  regardless of results

Harings off

Boyce is....oh frik knows

He who must not be named will be at Livi soon

 

[HopeDiouf]

3 minutes ago, Sooks said:

He seems to just lose confidence sometimes . He was very good against Motherwell , and before Naismith ****ed up the defence he was excellent against Hibs too

concentration for me.  possibly confidence affecting it too.  Not any effort issue IMO.  

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, HopeDiouf said:

concentration for me.  possibly confidence affecting it too.  Not any effort issue IMO.  

Felt for the boy in the semi . He was totally dejected and despondent looking . I would be getting him to speak to the guy that helped Sean Clare if it was me 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Forrest has historically played in small bursts, long before he played for us, Livi were willing to let him go to St Johnstone, he refused and went on a burst. His current burst is over, Oda is a far superior player and needs back in the team. Whenever Nieuwenhof plays, despite some of the shite that circulates, we look a better team. 

 

Both back in the team Saturday for me. Also hoping we dont continue with SK at right back much longer, thats a very good square peg wasted in a round hole

[Carter]

2 hours ago, Chimp said:

 

Would be really surprised to see Grant start again either way. I don't actually know how many more chances he gets? Given plenty of opportunities to make his mark and never takes it. The odd flash of quality here and there but mostly invisible in games. He's 29, should be in his prime and if he's not by now then I don't see how he ever will be. Would imagine he's on a decent wage too and I'd be happy to see him moved on in January if there were any takers. 

Grant hid in plain sight for much of the 2nd half on Saturday until he was eventually hooked. That's the type of game he should be looking to take a grip of. He's just nowhere near what we need imo. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

15 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

No place for it in the SPL top league. Hopefully Livy go down and take there shambles of a pitch with them!

This!

[GinRummy]

38 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Yeah I think Sibbick works for this game for me.  Remember he's very capable of pinning teams back with his athleticism.  I'd suggest he'd have produced as much if not more than Forrest offensively on Saturday (though Oda was the correct sub).  I'd prob go Sibbick RWB.

 

That leaves any one of Oda or Vargas (outside shout for Tagawa) to play right up top and run their line.

Aye fair comment. 
 

He’ll go for Boyce and Shankland up front with Lowry behind. I’d prefer Vargas personally. 

[Carter]

Just now, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Forrest has historically played in small bursts, long before he played for us, Livi were willing to let him go to St Johnstone, he refused and went on a burst. His current burst is over, Oda is a far superior player and needs back in the team. Whenever Nieuwenhof plays, despite some of the shite that circulates, we look a better team. 

 

Both back in the team Saturday for me. Also hoping we dont continue with SK at right back much longer, thats a very good square peg wasted in a round hole

It's still a bit baffling that our wage bill has got beyond £15M and we remain so short in quality in the middle of the park. I'm pretty sure we've got quite a few players getting paid at levels they couldn't command elsewhere. I'm fairly sure Jorge Grant is one such example. 

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, Carter said:

Grant hid in plain sight for much of the 2nd half on Saturday until he was eventually hooked. That's the type of game he should be looking to take a grip of. He's just nowhere near what we need imo. 

He flatters to deceive! Some nice touches but drifts out of games. 

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

Aye fair comment. 
 

He’ll go for Boyce and Shankland up front with Lowry behind. I’d prefer Vargas personally. 

I just don’t get the hype with Lowry - he’s a wimp and a passenger!

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, Carter said:

It's still a bit baffling that our wage bill has got beyond £15M and we remain so short in quality in the middle of the park. I'm pretty sure we've got quite a few players getting paid at levels they couldn't command elsewhere. I'm fairly sure Jorge Grant is one such example. 

Thought he summed up the game Saturday, started very well and then faded

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Just now, Thomaso said:

I just don’t get the hype with Lowry - he’s a wimp and a passenger!

Young Michael Stewart Lowry, thinks he owns the pitch for one piece of inspiration from a million attempts. Perhaps on a superior wavelength though in his defence, he does play balls into good spaces, spaces so good our forwards are looking and thinking, "should i have been there?"

[TheBigO]

2 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Aye fair comment. 
 

He’ll go for Boyce and Shankland up front with Lowry behind. I’d prefer Vargas personally. 

Yeah think so too.  Argh, I kinda get the Shanks and Boyce thing, I do.  And in theory there;s heehaw space behind these teams anyway cos they all sit in deep, so having two guys with strength + nous just about makes sense ,doesn't it!!!  And then you can bring on the flying machines.

 

What I'd say is if it's Boyce and Shanks, perhaps it ISN'T Lowry.  Maybe it;s one of the quick guys instead of him!? Apart from anything else, I see games like this there being plenty second balls.  Vargas and Oda better at picking them up and driving than Lowry perhaps?

 

Duno!!!

[GinRummy]

Just now, Thomaso said:

I just don’t get the hype with Lowry - he’s a wimp and a passenger!

He is undoubtedly both of those things at time. He’s also the guy most likely to play that killer pass. He’s there for a ‘moment’ as Neilson used to call it. By the time he finds real form and has learned a bit he’ll be back along the m8 but he definitely has potential. 

[Carter]

2 minutes ago, Thomaso said:

He flatters to deceive! Some nice touches but drifts out of games. 

Massively flatters to deceive. It's his complete absence of athleticism. Olly Lee was the same. We struggled to get Lee out the door permanently too.

 

Two examples where we've gone into Engkish market and evidently paid far higher salaries than those who would be interested in that market. If Grant goes in January it's most likely a loan deal. Whereas I think Sibbick gets sold. 

[TheBigO]

Just now, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Young Michael Stewart Lowry, thinks he owns the pitch for one piece of inspiration from a million attempts. Perhaps on a superior wavelength though in his defence, he does play balls into good spaces, spaces so good our forwards are looking and thinking, "should i have been there?"

Oh I like the kid, he's a good player.  But yeah I think you look at him and Barrie (with 7/8 years more experience is probably all it is) and Barrie retains possession and makes better choices AND tries those killer balls.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, TheBigO said:

Oh I like the kid, he's a good player.  But yeah I think you look at him and Barrie (with 7/8 years more experience is probably all it is) and Barrie retains possession and makes better choices AND tries those killer balls.

I guess I am still handicapped in my own mind who the parent club are! He has talent but still very much got the L plates on

[GinRummy]

1 minute ago, TheBigO said:

Yeah think so too.  Argh, I kinda get the Shanks and Boyce thing, I do.  And in theory there;s heehaw space behind these teams anyway cos they all sit in deep, so having two guys with strength + nous just about makes sense ,doesn't it!!!  And then you can bring on the flying machines.

 

What I'd say is if it's Boyce and Shanks, perhaps it ISN'T Lowry.  Maybe it;s one of the quick guys instead of him!? Apart from anything else, I see games like this there being plenty second balls.  Vargas and Oda better at picking them up and driving than Lowry perhaps?

 

Duno!!!

It’s hard because if there’s only one of Boyce or Shankland at the club then they play every week. The two of them together? I think we‘d improve if we had more pace, not to say those two can’t combine well and get goals but you only need to look at the problems Gino’s pace caused defences last season. 

[Thomaso]

1 minute ago, GinRummy said:

He is undoubtedly both of those things at time. He’s also the guy most likely to play that killer pass. He’s there for a ‘moment’ as Neilson used to call it. By the time he finds real form and has learned a bit he’ll be back along the m8 but he definitely has potential. 

Aye instead of giving our young players game time to develop their potential we’re playing a Rangers player who apart from one goal has been a huge disappointment. He has had some shockers and is a waste of a jersey!

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Just now, GinRummy said:

It’s hard because if there’s only one of Boyce or Shankland at the club then they play every week. The two of them together? I think we‘d improve if we had more pace, not to say those two can’t combine well and get goals but you only need to look at the problems Gino’s pace caused defences last season. 

Where Tagawa was meant to come in I dare say, however thus far, we are waiting for him to settle. One you would have to be a fly on the wall to understand the situation there

[GinRummy]

Just now, Thomaso said:

Aye instead of giving our young players game time to develop their potential we’re playing a Rangers player who apart from one goal has been a huge disappointment. He has had some shockers and is a waste of a jersey!

Would tend to agree. Right now I’m in the wait and see camp. He’s had wee glimpses of how he could be but will he show any consistency between now and the end of the season? 

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Jambo in Bathgate said:

With 5 subs now. We tend to keep our powder dry especially those players coming back from injury. It was noticeable that Oda, Vargas, Devlin and Calem made a difference against tiring players. 

I get that but we can sometimes start the fire right away, as our options get fit we really need our quicker players starting and the slow guys coming off the bench once the game slows down.   Beni needed replaced too, Haring or Tagawa should’ve come on really. 

[Carter]

2 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Young Michael Stewart Lowry, thinks he owns the pitch for one piece of inspiration from a million attempts. Perhaps on a superior wavelength though in his defence, he does play balls into good spaces, spaces so good our forwards are looking and thinking, "should i have been there?"

Boyce and Shankland need the service to be pretty precise given neither have the pace or the legs/mobility. That's what appears to make those types of game such an endurance test and it is problematic. Most of that game on Saturday was played in front of St Johnstone. Not many examples of their backline being turned and facing their own goal. All needs to be incredibly precise.

 

Shankland is clearly an excellent finisher, particularly at this level. But he's not scoring that goal that Miovski got yesterday for example because he's just not pulling away from a backline in that fashion. That's what'll curtail a big move for Shankland imo. That's a different subject though.

[GinRummy]

Just now, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Where Tagawa was meant to come in I dare say, however thus far, we are waiting for him to settle. One you would have to be a fly on the wall to understand the situation there

Yep, no idea what’s going on there. I’d guess nothing other than a couple of injuries but who knows. 

[TheBigO]

5 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

I guess I am still handicapped in my own mind who the parent club are! He has talent but still very much got the L plates on

Absolutely.  If he was our own kid, we'd be waxing lyrical about his potential is the truth.  But he isn't and a loan player needs to provide for us within the loan period is the hard truth.  He's doing OK, but I'm looking forward to having Baz back (saw him at Oriam on Friday and he was managing to carry a wee boot bag without limping, which I took as promising!!)

[TheBigO]

6 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

It’s hard because if there’s only one of Boyce or Shankland at the club then they play every week. The two of them together? I think we‘d improve if we had more pace, not to say those two can’t combine well and get goals but you only need to look at the problems Gino’s pace caused defences last season. 

Agreed.  And as much as his pace, which is part of it, we miss his power.  He was really aggressive which I think was kinda overlooked a bit as people didn't see him like that.  He actually bullied defenders.  We do miss that.  And what a strike he had.  We defo miss that!!!!

 

I think when Barrie is back and "hopefully" Tagawa clicks, we'll see a big difference.  I still really like Oda too, he has a lot to give us.  We've been unlucky with injury in those areas and will get them all up and running again.  Pollock has pace and power too actually, though more from wide and deep.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 minute ago, TheBigO said:

Absolutely.  If he was our own kid, we'd be waxing lyrical about his potential is the truth.  But he isn't and a loan player needs to provide for us within the loan period is the hard truth.  He's doing OK, but I'm looking forward to having Baz back (saw him at Oriam on Friday and he was managing to carry a wee boot bag without limping, which I took as promising!!)

McKay is a big difference, he teases players out and makes overlaps for Cochrane or Kingsley look easy. Having Atkinson as a natural right back too gives us much better balance.

 

Some hard calls to make soon for the manager.