David Munro/penalty ( merged )

[rmreido]

The thing that completely baffles me about the Boyce one is, the ref goes to the screen, has a look and still says no pen, wagging his finger when he comes back on the pitch, then, astonishingly, does an action to say he won the ball.... WTF ref!

Unbelievable!

[DS98]

It would be handy if Crawford Allan or someone from the SFA would come out and either explain the decision or admit their man got it wrong. An acceptance of wrongdoing would be a lot easier to accept.
 

Im not suggesting they do that for every contentious decision but in extremely baffling circumstances, like the Rangers penalty given and ours not given. The silence from them is the worst part for me. We don’t know if the ref is being punished, downgraded, warned or patted on the back. 

[Dennis Denuto]

2 hours ago, rmreido said:

The thing that completely baffles me about the Boyce one is, the ref goes to the screen, has a look and still says no pen, wagging his finger when he comes back on the pitch, then, astonishingly, does an action to say he won the ball.... WTF ref!

Unbelievable!

He is signalling no penalty, drop ball. He stopped the game for a head knock to Boyce and was signalling it would re-start with an uncontested drop to Motherwell.

[Gorgierools]

1 hour ago, DS98 said:

It would be handy if Crawford Allan or someone from the SFA would come out and either explain the decision or admit their man got it wrong. An acceptance of wrongdoing would be a lot easier to accept.
 

Im not suggesting they do that for every contentious decision but in extremely baffling circumstances, like the Rangers penalty given and ours not given. The silence from them is the worst part for me. We don’t know if the ref is being punished, downgraded, warned or patted on the back. 

Maybe we could demand an urgent meeting?ala the victims 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

13 hours ago, DS98 said:

 
Offsides

Pass backs

Dangerous play (with no contact)

Offensive, insulting, abusive language 

 

Basically anything without physical contact. 

 

Inside the box mate, fouls, I cant recall any free kick awarded as indirect in the attacking box bar passbacks, indirect fouls really aren't a thing. 

Real life examples please, where one has actually been awarded in the situation we are talking about from Saturday.

[DS98]

8 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Inside the box mate, fouls, I cant recall any free kick awarded as indirect in the attacking box bar passbacks, indirect fouls really aren't a thing. 

Real life examples please, where one has actually been awarded in the situation we are talking about from Saturday.

You never said that though. You just said there’s no such thing as indirect free kicks. But you get them all over the pitch several times a game. 

 

Inside the box for an attacking team is very rare but they’ll still happen. Pass backs, high feet with no contact or if a defender keeps the ball between his legs on the deck. All would be indirect free kicks. 
 

Also if a keeper has the ball in his hands, rolls it out to kick it but picks it back up again.

Edited November 14, 2023 by DS98

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, DS98 said:

It would be handy if Crawford Allan or someone from the SFA would come out and either explain the decision or admit their man got it wrong. An acceptance of wrongdoing would be a lot easier to accept.
 

Im not suggesting they do that for every contentious decision but in extremely baffling circumstances, like the Rangers penalty given and ours not given. The silence from them is the worst part for me. We don’t know if the ref is being punished, downgraded, warned or patted on the back. 

Only in Scotland could VAR fail to actually improve the standard of refereeing...

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Only in Scotland could VAR fail to actually improve the standard of refereeing...

 

VAR wasn't the issue.  The issue is the ego of the referee refusing to admit he got it wrong.

 

This referee surely has to be demoted.

[Spellczech]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

VAR wasn't the issue.  The issue is the ego of the referee refusing to admit he got it wrong.

 

This referee surely has to be demoted.

I wasn't implying that VAR is the issue...quite the opposite.

 

As you say, if VAR shows that he's wrong and he ignore this, then this surely requires action from the governing bodies, not silence.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Spellczech

[DS98]

16 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Inside the box mate, fouls, I cant recall any free kick awarded as indirect in the attacking box bar passbacks, indirect fouls really aren't a thing. 

Real life examples please, where one has actually been awarded in the situation we are talking about from Saturday.

https://youtu.be/9gnOfzQE8nY?si=BuxZ-1bqqs7Rzdj-

 

[OTT]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

VAR wasn't the issue.  The issue is the ego of the referee refusing to admit he got it wrong.

 

This referee surely has to be demoted.

 

demoted? I would say thats gross misconduct and should be sacked. 

 

He's saw the error in real time (he was looking right at it ffs) then was given a chance by VAR to correct his error, and refused. 

 

He's not suitable to be a referee. If a ref cannot admit they're wrong, they are ill suited to being an official. 

 

We should be pushing for his badges, and being ****ing vindictive about it too. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by OTT

[DS98]

Just now, OTT said:

 

demoted? I would say thats gross misconduct and should be sacked. 

 

He's saw the error in real time (he was looking right at it ffs) then was given a chance by VAR to correct his error, and refused. 

 

He's not suitable to be a referee. If a ref cannot admit their wrong, they are ill suited to being an official. 

 

We should be pushing for his badges, and being ****ing vindictive about it too. 

That might seem harsh but as said previously, these types of irresponsible decisions can have a huge impact on a teams season. Millions of pounds in the balance and people jobs on the line. Honest mistakes you can forgive but he had 2 bites at the cherry and consciously chose to do the wrong thing. 

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, DS98 said:

That might seem harsh but as said previously, these types of irresponsible decisions can have a huge impact on a teams season. Millions of pounds in the balance and people jobs on the line. Honest mistakes you can forgive but he had 2 bites at the cherry and consciously chose to do the wrong thing. 

 

Exactly. All clubs invested significant sums of money into providing the referees with VAR to improve standards. If they're going to misuse and ignore VAR then we need to be extremely harsh in our response. They've been provided the tools and training. There are no more excuses. 

 

We get zero leeway with referees, I think that should be reciprocated at board level. 

 

He's proven himself unfit to be a referee, I want his badges. 

 

If anyone thinks for a second that the OF wouldn't do the exact same thing, I have magic beans to sell them. Our board is soft as shite in dealing with the SFA and its becoming rage inducing. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by OTT

[south morocco]

16 minutes ago, DS98 said:

That might seem harsh but as said previously, these types of irresponsible decisions can have a huge impact on a teams season. Millions of pounds in the balance and people jobs on the line. Honest mistakes you can forgive but he had 2 bites at the cherry and consciously chose to do the wrong thing. 

I just can’t see how a so called professional ref can see it in real time, then VAR and give nothing. It’s just blatant cheating. No other explanation can rationally be given.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

27 minutes ago, DS98 said:

https://youtu.be/9gnOfzQE8nY?si=BuxZ-1bqqs7Rzdj-

 

11 years ago, my point is pretty valid, referees dont give indirect free kicks inside the box these days, they give penalties

[south morocco]

17 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Exactly. All clubs invested significant sums of money into providing the referees with VAR to improve standards. If they're going to misuse and ignore VAR then we need to be extremely harsh in our response. They've been provided the tools and training. There are no more excuses. 

 

We get zero leeway with referees, I think that should be reciprocated at board level. 

 

He's proven himself unfit to be a referee, I want his badges. 

 

If anyone thinks for a second that the OF wouldn't do the exact same thing, I have magic beans to sell them. Our board is soft as shite in dealing with the SFA and its becoming rage inducing. 

We should be calling this out behind the scenes but I doubt it. We’ll just meekly accept it. 

[Wee Mikey]

13 hours ago, gnasher75 said:

But the game restarted with a goal kick????

 

I'm pretty sure that the game re-started with a free kick taken by their 'keeper well outside the 6 yard box; thus the decision could only have been that Boyce was at fault (he clearly wasn't, in my opinion).

 

That 👇 seems to be how it panned out.

 

16 hours ago, maroonsgotop said:

ref gave a foul by Boyce before the ball reached Shankland

 

I think that you are correct. Boyce merely stood his ground, and, if I'm not mistaken, did all he could not to impede; but that was the ref's 'get out'.

 

I'm convinced that the ref, whistle to his lips, was on the verge of awarding a pen prior to the assistant ref waving furiously.

 

Hearts' 'controversial' incidents seem to get extra special scrutiny.

[DS98]

32 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

11 years ago, my point is pretty valid, referees dont give indirect free kicks inside the box these days, they give penalties

I give up. 

[Back to 2005]

Very disappointing that we are not asking for an explanation. If it was Celtic he wouldn’t referee in the top flight again. 
 

[Bull's-eye]

7 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Very disappointing that we are not asking for an explanation. If it was Celtic he wouldn’t referee in the top flight again. 
 

 

Really dont understand this logic.

 

They dont give decisions like this against Celtic or Rangers, thats 100% of the problem here.

 

Its not about making mistakes, its about the complete lack if fairness to the rest of the league..

 

How can they give explanations, something like "yes we understand everyones frustration at the years of absolute howling decisions that go in favour of the old firm and the couldn't care less attitude about the rest of the league, we're sorry but dont expect it to change anytime soon".

 

No wonder they keep schtum.

[TheBigO]

1 hour ago, Dennis Denuto said:

He is signalling no penalty, drop ball. He stopped the game for a head knock to Boyce and was signalling it would re-start with an uncontested drop to Motherwell.

And here's where it gets messy.  If he stopped the game for a headknock on Boyce, how the flip did he think Boyce got the headknock in the first place!?!??!  OK Boycie put his hands up to his face but did quickly change that to his chest.  But if the game was stopped for a headknock, which it was, how in the name jehova can he have also thought there was no contact!?!?!?  Surely by his own action, this means he should have given the penalty and then overturned it on a VAR check?!

 

It's mental.  Properly mental.

 

And we're all debating this one.  The one on Shankland was possibly worse.  Imagine an OF player getting a foul against them for what Boyce did.  IE, stand still while the ball is 3 yards above his and the defender's head!?  Christ in the last 2 weeks we've had players pushed with both hands in the back to the ground and not been given a foul!!!

 

Madness!!!

[section s heart]

3 hours ago, DS98 said:

It would be handy if Crawford Allan or someone from the SFA would come out and either explain the decision or admit their man got it wrong. An acceptance of wrongdoing would be a lot easier to accept.
 

Im not suggesting they do that for every contentious decision but in extremely baffling circumstances, like the Rangers penalty given and ours not given. The silence from them is the worst part for me. We don’t know if the ref is being punished, downgraded, warned or patted on the back. 

Agree, for all that the EPL has had its dodgy moments with VAR, Howard Webb comes out and defends or disagrees with decisions, and refs can get a free weekend or two for their misdemeanours.

 

Webb at least gives the impression of trying to drive up standards, Allan should be doing the same, as well as  explaining (to clubs at least) what is being done to address the west coast imbalance of refs.

[south morocco]

20 minutes ago, section s heart said:

Agree, for all that the EPL has had its dodgy moments with VAR, Howard Webb comes out and defends or disagrees with decisions, and refs can get a free weekend or two for their misdemeanours.

 

Webb at least gives the impression of trying to drive up standards, Allan should be doing the same, as well as  explaining (to clubs at least) what is being done to address the west coast imbalance of refs.

The whole system needs overhauled and some accountability required. Fans are constantly getting shortchanged by the GFA. Unfortunately they won’t want their cosy wee set up disrupted. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by south morocco

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, south morocco said:

The whole system needs overhauled and some accountability required. Fans are constantly getting shortchanged by the GFA. Unfortunately they won’t want their cosy wee set up disrupted. 

 

Not whilst our CEO who is sitting on the SFA board pointedly refuses to show any leadership on the issue. 

[cazzyy]

1 hour ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

11 years ago, my point is pretty valid, referees dont give indirect free kicks inside the box these days, they give penalties

 

😄 Your point which was that indirect free kicks haven't been a thing for 20 years is absolutely not valid.

[south morocco]

5 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Not whilst our CEO who is sitting on the SFA board pointedly refuses to show any leadership on the issue. 

Bet they all snigger when he walks in to the room! What a farce our game is..

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, cazzyy said:

 

😄 Your point which was that indirect free kicks haven't been a thing for 20 years is absolutely not valid.

Yet nobody seems to be providing me with any examples bar one from La Liga 11 years ago.

 

Hilarious eh.

[John Findlay]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

VAR wasn't the issue.  The issue is the ego of the referee refusing to admit he got it wrong.

 

This referee surely has to be demoted.

No chance. Promotion now a certainty.

[Wee Mikey]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

No chance. Promotion now a certainty.

 

Odds on we'll see him again in the not too distant future.

 

He's earned his stripes.

[John Findlay]

1 minute ago, Wee Mikey said:

 

Odds on we'll see him again in the not too distant future.

 

He's earned his stripes.

Guaranteed.

[sac]

8 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

No chance. Promotion now a certainty.

Watch how many pens he gives the OF this season.

[Wee Mikey]

2 hours ago, TheBigO said:

 ... The one on Shankland was possibly worse.  Imagine an OF player getting a foul against them for what Boyce did.  IE, stand still while the ball is 3 yards above his and the defender's head!?  Christ in the last 2 weeks we've had players pushed with both hands in the back to the ground and not been given a foul!!!

 

Madness!!!

 

Boyce merely stood his ground and, if anything, tried not to impede.

 

Time for another 'A Song For Every Occasion':-

 

 

[cazzyy]

48 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Yet nobody seems to be providing me with any examples bar one from La Liga 11 years ago.

 

Hilarious eh.

 

There was one in a Spanish game last week where the keeper actually let the ball go into the net because he knew it was indirect.

If I find it I'll post it and you can accept you were talking bollocks and we'll move on.

 

Edit: Didn't take me long, not Spain but point stands.

 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/cassio-ramos-corinthians-indirect-goal-31416530

Edited November 14, 2023 by cazzyy

[frankblack]

4 hours ago, Wee Mikey said:

 

Odds on we'll see him again in the not too distant future.

 

He's earned his stripes.

 

Guaranteed red card and pen against next game with him.  Probably the Easter Road derby.

[colinmaroon]

 

 

Don't bother looking up BBC iPlayer Sportscene to see Michael Stewart ripping the ref about that penalty.  Didn't even show it in the highlights of the second show.  Too busy spending hours on the Uglies.

[sadj]

6 hours ago, south morocco said:

Bet they all snigger when he walks in to the room! What a farce our game is..

Should be in attendance at a meeting of the chairmen/senior board members. You’d soon re-evaluate that first part. The second is spot on sadly. 

[south morocco]

11 hours ago, sadj said:

Should be in attendance at a meeting of the chairmen/senior board members. You’d soon re-evaluate that first part. The second is spot on sadly. 

Was meaning the SFA boardroom.

[jackal]

Has Munro phoned yet to apologise and say he got it wrong?

[Kirky Jambo]

In a weird way I can accept the Boyce one not being given in real time if the ref feels Boyce has simulated. 
 

For me, it’s a foul if there is contact, and even if there isn’t a boot that close to your face is likely to imbalance you or cause you to take evasive action, so is still a foul.

 

I can’t accept a professional ref watching it on VAR and deciding the Motherwell player got the ball. As he appeared to do.

 

I also struggle to accept Kevin Clancy (with the benefit of replays) not giving a penalty for the foul on Shankland. It is a clear foul and I don’t think I’ve seen any argument to the contrary. It’s just been swept under the rug due to the attention being on the Boyce one.

 

when you then consider the VAR intervention for the penalty in 90 min at Ibrox, the whole thing stinks to high heaven

[Shaggy2]

1 hour ago, Kirky Jambo said:

In a weird way I can accept the Boyce one not being given in real time if the ref feels Boyce has simulated. 
 

For me, it’s a foul if there is contact, and even if there isn’t a boot that close to your face is likely to imbalance you or cause you to take evasive action, so is still a foul.

 

I can’t accept a professional ref watching it on VAR and deciding the Motherwell player got the ball. As he appeared to do.

 

I also struggle to accept Kevin Clancy (with the benefit of replays) not giving a penalty for the foul on Shankland. It is a clear foul and I don’t think I’ve seen any argument to the contrary. It’s just been swept under the rug due to the attention being on the Boyce one.

 

when you then consider the VAR intervention for the penalty in 90 min at Ibrox, the whole thing stinks to high heaven

Going to play Devil’s Advocate a wee bit. The Boyce penalty is a disgraceful decision but I don’t think he was saying Casey played the ball, rather I think he was just asking for the ball to get game restarted. It was the wrong signage to use at that time and had massive potential to cause confusion.

As for the 2nd, he’s given a foul against Boyce before Shankland is fouled. He’s simply made an arse of it and the ball is technically dead when Shankland is fouled. Clancy probably told him this so he’s had to go with his original (wrong) on field decision. Similar to the one Walsh got wrong when Ralston scored against Hearts in the very first VAR game. 
Doesn’t matter if the decision is wrong if the referee has stopped the game by blowing his whistle. You can’t even go back and say it was a mistake. That’s why the directive is to let play continue and if there’s a clear error (ie Boyce has committed a foul) then you CAN go back. 

[TheBigO]

3 minutes ago, Shaggy2 said:

Going to play Devil’s Advocate a wee bit. The Boyce penalty is a disgraceful decision but I don’t think he was saying Casey played the ball, rather I think he was just asking for the ball to get game restarted. It was the wrong signage to use at that time and had massive potential to cause confusion.

As for the 2nd, he’s given a foul against Boyce before Shankland is fouled. He’s simply made an arse of it and the ball is technically dead when Shankland is fouled. Clancy probably told him this so he’s had to go with his original (wrong) on field decision. Similar to the one Walsh got wrong when Ralston scored against Hearts in the very first VAR game. 
Doesn’t matter if the decision is wrong if the referee has stopped the game by blowing his whistle. You can’t even go back and say it was a mistake. That’s why the directive is to let play continue and if there’s a clear error (ie Boyce has committed a foul) then you CAN go back. 

You're right on the first one.  Ridic as it is!

 

Second one, I think you're right in the decision that was reached but I dont think the whistle went?  Did it?  I'm sure play was active when Shanks was brought down.  Why else review it apart from anything else?  You can't review it, in fact.  I think he decided it was a foul by Boyce, didn't give the penalty, then somehow managed to watch it and stick by his decision.  But the whistle, I'm sure didn't go until after Shanks was brought down.  I watched on telly and I'm sure I got excited cos the whistle went when Shanks went down and I assumed - REASONABLY!! - that it was a pen!  Dunno!?

[Shaggy2]

4 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

You're right on the first one.  Ridic as it is!

 

Second one, I think you're right in the decision that was reached but I dont think the whistle went?  Did it?  I'm sure play was active when Shanks was brought down.  Why else review it apart from anything else?  You can't review it, in fact.  I think he decided it was a foul by Boyce, didn't give the penalty, then somehow managed to watch it and stick by his decision.  But the whistle, I'm sure didn't go until after Shanks was brought down.  I watched on telly and I'm sure I got excited cos the whistle went when Shanks went down and I assumed - REASONABLY!! - that it was a pen!  Dunno!?

To be honest I’ve only watched it on my phone. I’ll get on Hearts TV and have a better look but I thought Munro was indicating a free-kick to Motherwell before the “2nd” foul.

[cazzyy]

23 hours ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Yet nobody seems to be providing me with any examples bar one from La Liga 11 years ago.

 

Hilarious eh.

 

22 hours ago, cazzyy said:

 

There was one in a Spanish game last week where the keeper actually let the ball go into the net because he knew it was indirect.

If I find it I'll post it and you can accept you were talking bollocks and we'll move on.

 

Edit: Didn't take me long, not Spain but point stands.

 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/cassio-ramos-corinthians-indirect-goal-31416530

 

Still waiting for a response to this.

 

Hilarious eh.

[cazzyy]

22 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

You're right on the first one.  Ridic as it is!

 

Second one, I think you're right in the decision that was reached but I dont think the whistle went?  Did it?  I'm sure play was active when Shanks was brought down.  Why else review it apart from anything else?  You can't review it, in fact.  I think he decided it was a foul by Boyce, didn't give the penalty, then somehow managed to watch it and stick by his decision.  But the whistle, I'm sure didn't go until after Shanks was brought down.  I watched on telly and I'm sure I got excited cos the whistle went when Shanks went down and I assumed - REASONABLY!! - that it was a pen!  Dunno!?

 

The referee never looked at the Shankland one again, VAR didn't ask him to.

[Shaggy2]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

You're right on the first one.  Ridic as it is!

 

Second one, I think you're right in the decision that was reached but I dont think the whistle went?  Did it?  I'm sure play was active when Shanks was brought down.  Why else review it apart from anything else?  You can't review it, in fact.  I think he decided it was a foul by Boyce, didn't give the penalty, then somehow managed to watch it and stick by his decision.  But the whistle, I'm sure didn't go until after Shanks was brought down.  I watched on telly and I'm sure I got excited cos the whistle went when Shanks went down and I assumed - REASONABLY!! - that it was a pen!  Dunno!?

https://clipchamp.com/watch/IU1hXNt01o0 - you're bang on, it's an horrendously late call by Munro. No idea why I thought he'd blown as soon as Boyce committed his "foul"

1 hour ago, cazzyy said:

 

The referee never looked at the Shankland one again, VAR didn't ask him to.

https://clipchamp.com/watch/1hrj4wg71NG - good point, you can clearly hear the PA stating that VAR are checking a possible penalty. Clancy to blame for this one? Seems he never asked Munro to check it.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Shaggy2

[cazzyy]

25 minutes ago, Shaggy2 said:

https://clipchamp.com/watch/IU1hXNt01o0 - you're bang on, it's an horrendously late call by Munro. No idea why I thought he'd blown as soon as Boyce committed his "foul"

https://clipchamp.com/watch/1hrj4wg71NG - good point, you can clearly hear the PA stating that VAR are checking a possible penalty. Clancy to blame for this one? Seems he never asked Munro to check it.

 

Exactly.

[TheBigO]

3 hours ago, Shaggy2 said:

https://clipchamp.com/watch/IU1hXNt01o0 - you're bang on, it's an horrendously late call by Munro. No idea why I thought he'd blown as soon as Boyce committed his "foul"

https://clipchamp.com/watch/1hrj4wg71NG - good point, you can clearly hear the PA stating that VAR are checking a possible penalty. Clancy to blame for this one? Seems he never asked Munro to check it.

Mental!!!!

[Wee Mikey]

1 hour ago, TheBigO said:

Mental!!!!

 

It's what we have to endure, though.

[mickycameron98]

I just can't get my head round why neither was given!! The 2nd one should have called the ref over to monitor. Absolutely astonishing decisions that need explained. They were both clear penalties and at this point I can only point to corruption as the only reason.

[Wee Mikey]

2 hours ago, mickycameron98 said:

I just can't get my head round why neither was given!! The 2nd one should have called the ref over to monitor. Absolutely astonishing decisions that need explained. They were both clear penalties and at this point I can only point to corruption as the only reason.

 

If only there was a song ...

 

"incompetence"

 

😆