Titanic "tourist" submarine

[JFK-1]

26 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

The end caps were one of the areas where the concerns were. 

 

Not surprising. I'm no engineer but I can conclude the standard steel sphere craft to be infinitely better than something cigar shaped with an attached end cap? 

 

I wouldn't want to be down there in something that is neither spherical nor depends on attached ends.

[JFK-1]

This is a real surprise, or at least to me it is. I thought they would be pretty much vapourised.

 

Human remains thought to be found in Titan sub debris

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66049789

[jack D and coke]

42 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

This is a real surprise, or at least to me it is. I thought they would be pretty much vapourised.

 

Human remains thought to be found in Titan sub debris

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66049789

Starting to sound like they definitely knew they were in trouble and tried to abort. 
I don’t know if I could think of a more terrifying end. Only plane crash I think…

[That thing you do]

3 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

This is a real surprise, or at least to me it is. I thought they would be pretty much vapourised.

 

Human remains thought to be found in Titan sub debris

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66049789

More confirmation James Cameron was right. Ballast was dropped they knew they were in trouble and were trying to resurface but the warning was followed minutes later by cracks then the carbon fibre tube collapsed.

 

I think they werent as low as first thought when they ran out of time

 

 

[ri Alban]

The same people criticising the exploration of the Titanic as ghoulish, now doing the same to the Titan. Swan necking is a human instinct.  You see it with car accidents or ambulances at residents. Nosy, intrusive *******s.

Edited June 29, 2023 by ri Alban

[been here before]

The JKB Experts On Everything are slowly beginning to assemble...

[JFK-1]

15 minutes ago, been here before said:

The JKB Experts On Everything are slowly beginning to assemble...

 

All I see is people discussing the latest news, expertly?

[ri Alban]

Why can't they do the recovery in private.  Broadcasting its every move now. ' Remains found ' That's someone's family,  show some respect and leave them to it.

[Daktari]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Why can't they do the recovery in private.  Broadcasting its every move now. ' Remains found ' That's someone's family,  show some respect and leave them to it.

Rolling 24 hour news channels and web sites have a lot to answer for in this regard. They either pick over the last remnants of a story when it should be left alone, or constantly regurgitate and repeat until things take on an importance and significance they don't actually merit. All in the name of filling space and time in their output because they have to.

[Victorian]

9 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

This is a real surprise, or at least to me it is. I thought they would be pretty much vapourised.

 

Human remains thought to be found in Titan sub debris

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66049789

 

It's an incredible set of theoretical stuff to try to appreciate.  Fluid dynamics and physics.  I think it was theorised that the ingressing water at approximately 400 atmospheres (bars) of pressure would be so immensely powerful and instantaneous that it would compress the air in the pressure capsule so quickly and that would result in the air super heating to a temperate similar to the surface of the sun,  thereby incinerating everything in an instant.  But surely at the same moment that is happening,  there is 400 bar of pressure of water occupying the same space,  thereby instantly extinguishing any super heated gases.  Could it possibly be that some solid matter within the capsule avoids incineration?  It's very alien and difficult to comprehend.

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

It's an incredible set of theoretical stuff to try to appreciate.  Fluid dynamics and physics.  I think it was theorised that the ingressing water at approximately 400 atmospheres (bars) of pressure would be so immensely powerful and instantaneous that it would compress the air in the pressure capsule so quickly and that would result in the air super heating to a temperate similar to the surface of the sun,  thereby incinerating everything in an instant.  But surely at the same moment that is happening,  there is 400 bar of pressure of water occupying the same space,  thereby instantly extinguishing any super heated gases.  Could it possibly be that some solid matter within the capsule avoids incineration?  It's very alien and difficult to comprehend.

 

I'm wondering if they're talking about little more than bone fragments or something. It's certainly not a body which is why they're calling it "human remains" 

[JFK-1]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's an incredible set of theoretical stuff to try to appreciate.  Fluid dynamics and physics.  I think it was theorised that the ingressing water at approximately 400 atmospheres (bars) of pressure would be so immensely powerful and instantaneous that it would compress the air in the pressure capsule so quickly and that would result in the air super heating to a temperate similar to the surface of the sun,  thereby incinerating everything in an instant.  But surely at the same moment that is happening,  there is 400 bar of pressure of water occupying the same space,  thereby instantly extinguishing any super heated gases.  Could it possibly be that some solid matter within the capsule avoids incineration?  It's very alien and difficult to comprehend.

 

Would you agree that it's difficult to imagine any soft tissue surviving it?

[Victorian]

20 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Would you agree that it's difficult to imagine any soft tissue surviving it?

 

Dunno.  It's such an other wordly concept overall.  

[JFK-1]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Dunno.  It's such an other wordly concept overall.  

 

Definitely other wordly in more ways than one, this is a first. There have been implosions of submarines I think but at nothing like these depths and i doubt anything left of the submarine implosions were examined like this probably due to lacking the technology we now have.

 

we're going find out what survives since something must, "human remains"

 

I will go for maybe a tooth or a bone fragment.

[Victorian]

11 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Definitely other wordly in more ways than one, this is a first. There have been implosions of submarines I think but at nothing like these depths and i doubt anything left of the submarine implosions were examined like this probably due to lacking the technology we now have.

 

we're going find out what survives since something must, "human remains"

 

I will go for maybe a tooth or a bone fragment.

 

Human remains certainly covers anything whatsoever.  But I suspect there still remains a possibility that some other tissue could feasibly remain.  The whole thing is gruesome.

[Daktari]

Also worth noting the exact wording - 'presumed human remains'. I think we're talking about small fragments of bone or tissue that are likely to be from the crew but so small and obscure they will need further testing to be sure. Any such fragments will be DNA tested where possible and identified though, firstly for legal reasons but also for closure for the families.

[JFK-1]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Human remains certainly covers anything whatsoever.  But I suspect there still remains a possibility that some other tissue could feasibly remain.  The whole thing is gruesome.

 

Gruesome indeed, though maybe the tragedy wont be entirely pointless. This could teach us something about the physics of precisely what happens during such an event.  

[JFK-1]

1 minute ago, Daktari said:

Also worth noting the exact wording - 'presumed human remains'. I think we're talking about small fragments of bone or tissue that are likely to be from the crew but so small and obscure they will need further testing to be sure. Any such fragments will be DNA tested where possible and identified though, firstly for legal reasons but also for closure for the families.

 

I missed the presumed bit, they're not even sure what it is. got me thinking they might even be finding scraps of deep sea life that was killed by implosion. I read someplace anything within a certain vicinity would be killed.

[Unknown user]

5 hours ago, been here before said:

The JKB Experts On Everything are slowly beginning to assemble...

 

Disgusting stuff, talking about things on a forum eh?

 

Much better to just hang about and make sure people know you're better than the current conversation 😘

[Victorian]

Just now, JFK-1 said:

 

Gruesome indeed, though maybe the tragedy wont be entirely pointless. This could teach us something about the physics of precisely what happens during such an event.  

 

It's fascinating.  It seems impractical to conduct an experiment at the exact conditions.  The sheer cost would be prohibitive.  Then there's the matter of devising and recovering whatever recording instrumentation required.  I wonder if science has the means to artificially replicate the water pressure conditions to that magnitude.  Doubt it.

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Daktari said:

Also worth noting the exact wording - 'presumed human remains'. I think we're talking about small fragments of bone or tissue that are likely to be from the crew but so small and obscure they will need further testing to be sure. Any such fragments will be DNA tested where possible and identified though, firstly for legal reasons but also for closure for the families.

 

It's not a nice thought but it does sound like stuff scraped of the bits of hull rather than a leg or something

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It's fascinating.  It seems impractical to conduct an experiment at the exact conditions.  The sheer cost would be prohibitive.  Then there's the matter of devising and recovering whatever recording instrumentation required.  I wonder if science has the means to artificially replicate the water pressure conditions to that magnitude.  Doubt it.

 

One of the big problems is that the carbon fibre / epoxy hull experiences stresses between the two components with every dive. In a single material hull like steel, it all reacts as one and can be cycled hundreds of times, but with a composite hull the difference between the materials leads to tiny bits of damage that remain and get added to with every dive. They simply had no way of knowing how many dives this hull had in it.

 

N.B. not an expert, but James Cameron probably is 👍

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

One of the big problems is that the carbon fibre / epoxy hull experiences stresses between the two components with every dive. In a single material hull like steel, it all reacts as one and can be cycled hundreds of times, but with a composite hull the difference between the materials leads to tiny bits of damage that remain and get added to with every dive. They simply had no way of knowing how many dives this hull had in it.

 

N.B. not an expert, but James Cameron probably is 👍

 

I would imagine the science of how the materials and structural integrity of the vehicle perform would be much more reliable.  Finding out what happens to various materials within the air space would be much more theoretical and difficult to experiment.

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I would imagine the science of how the materials and structural integrity of the vehicle perform would be much more reliable.  Finding out what happens to various materials within the air space would be much more theoretical and difficult to experiment.

 

No one's daft enough to use carbon fibre over and over again so it's a bit of an unknown.

 

Plus, they sourced the carbon fibre cheap from Boeing (IIRC) as it was too old to use safely on planes. 

[Victorian]

Just now, Smithee said:

 

No one's daft enough to use carbon fibre over and over again so it's a bit of an unknown.

 

Plus, they sourced the carbon fibre cheap from Boeing (IIRC) as it was too old to use safely on planes. 

 

It seems to have been outrageous what they did.  

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

It seems to have been outrageous what they did.  

 

Aye it's a sin

[JFK-1]

25 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I would imagine the science of how the materials and structural integrity of the vehicle perform would be much more reliable.  Finding out what happens to various materials within the air space would be much more theoretical and difficult to experiment.

 

I think that's what it may come down to and yes it was James Cameron who first got me thinking it. Consider the standard craft, it's a steel/titanium alloy and it's a perfectly shaped sphere which will absorb the pressure equally in all dimensions.

I will speculate how they ight make one from scratch. Choose the materials, decide on the size of the sphere they want and make a mould. Melt your material, make sure it's perfectly blended and pour it into your mould. The end result will be a perfect sphere moulded from a material that's perfectly contiguous, there wont be a hint of a void in there if you do it properly. This can be checked when it cools and solidifies. right through. Then I envisage them using machines to hollow out and fashion the inside to the precise dimensions they want it to be.

 

So when it dives it's going to be compressed, when they hit great depths if you could measure the crafts dimensions it would be smaller than at the surface. But it has compressed perfectly contiguously, not a void or potential separation point in it so retains it's integrity. It will simply compress then when coming back to the surface expand and recover the original dimensions.

We know how much pressure these materials and these craft can absorb and how many times they can safely contract and expand, I don't know how many dives have been made in such craft but Cameron alone has been down dozens of times as have others in that community with not a single incident far less a fatality. And that's where the CEO of this company has been totally outrageous.

It was Cameron I first heard use the word "delaminatiion" when speaking of the incident, he means a separation of layers within the hull material ultimately creating a void allowing undesired movement. As you said, this craft was made of 2 different materials which are not perfectly blended like an alloy which will contract and expand at differing rates, because it's not a contiguous material like the cast steel sphere.

 

It's not even a sphere which to me compounds the issue because not only are the materials contracting and expanding at different rates but because it's not a sphere the pressure is not equally spread. So some parts of the hull itself will contract and expand at different rates as well as the material..

Cameron doesn't think such a material is suitable for these depths though he didn't mention the shape of the craft. In fact nobody in that industry though it was suitable, except for the CEO/founder of that company.

 

And he hadn't even submitted it to any of the standard testing. It survived a dive, that's his version of an acceptable test, and that's totally outrageous,. Even one of their own employees was fired for telling them this is not safe, begging them to have it certified.

He knew it wouldn't pass the certification process so he simply declined to have it certified, proclaiming their safety rules weren't suitable for innovators such as him, and in fact they were hampering innovation he said. He wasn't a stupid guy, I can't imagine what he was thinking of. He might have been a bit of a fantasist.

 

But ignoring safety standards within a tried and tested industry you're a newbie in isn't innovation if you're risking lives, it's criminal recklessness.

 

I see them getting around the international waters thing by legislating that for example if you're based in say the US, we don't care where you're taking it. You operate out of our country you need the certification or you're not diving at all.

[JFK-1]

I meant to mention the cost of how I envisaged the steel sphere being made, that would probably be a tidy sum indeed from the materials and then engineering to hollow it out. This guy was trying to do it on the cheap with something that to me is almost knitted or woven rather than moulded. 

[kila]

11 hours ago, been here before said:

The JKB Experts On Everything are slowly beginning to assemble...

 

Do you ever learn new things that you tell folk about? Curious as to why you get so upset about discussions on forums yet never argue with facts of your own!

[il Duce McTarkin]

8 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

I'm wondering if they're talking about little more than bone fragments or something. It's certainly not a body which is why they're calling it "human remains" 

 

I'll be able to let you know once the photo's start arriving in the whattsapp group chats.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Dirk McTarkin

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

 

I'll be able to let you know once the photo's start arriving in the whattsapp group chats.

 

 

😂

[henrysmithsgloves]

Opened can of meat🤮

[kila]

29 minutes ago, Dirk McTarkin said:

I'll be able to let you know once the photo's start arriving in the whattsapp group chats.

 

Will you be able to tell the difference from spam?

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

Has anyone else seen the unverified leaked transcript between Titan and The Polar Prince?  

[Ked]

8 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

Has anyone else seen the unverified leaked transcript between Titan and The Polar Prince?  

Do tell

[Unknown user]

9 hours ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

Has anyone else seen the unverified leaked transcript between Titan and The Polar Prince?  

 

Not real according to these guys

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/titan-sub-transcript/

[Taffin]

19 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Not real according to these guys

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/titan-sub-transcript/

 

Reading through that I wonder if someone has padded out/reworked something genuine to make it more readable and engaging for a layman. Seems too detailed and close to their protocols to have just been totally made up.

[ri Alban]

15 hours ago, Ked said:

Do tell

Is Ked a horse fly?

[Ked]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Is Ked a horse fly?

Last time I looked in the mirror I wasn't.

 

[JFK-1]

23 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Not real according to these guys

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/titan-sub-transcript/

 

It's that easy, more people should do what you just did with a lot more shit 😉

[JFK-1]

A suggestion in this video that the CEO Stockton Rush who also died when it imploded always knew this was going to happen, in fact it was an objective. One motive being this guy had a craving to be a historic figure, well, he is now. First submersible implosion in history and took two billionaires with him.

 

Why the Titanic sub imploded | 60 Minutes Australia

 

They had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, but the prize for the passengers onboard the OceanGate submersible, Titan, was supposed to be worth every cent. They were promised the chance to visit the most iconic shipwreck in history, the Titanic.

But somewhere along the journey, 3.8 kilometres down into the hostile depths of the north Atlantic Ocean, catastrophe struck. As Amelia Adams reports, valuable lessons must be learned from this tragedy. The brutal reality is this wasn’t an adventure. Rather, like the Titanic, it was a disaster just waiting to happen.

 

 

[Sooperstar]

26 minutes ago, JFK-1 said:

A suggestion in this video that the CEO Stockton Rush who also died when it imploded always knew this was going to happen, in fact it was an objective. One motive being this guy had a craving to be a historic figure, well, he is now. First submersible implosion in history and took two billionaires with him.

 

Why the Titanic sub imploded | 60 Minutes Australia

 

They had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, but the prize for the passengers onboard the OceanGate submersible, Titan, was supposed to be worth every cent. They were promised the chance to visit the most iconic shipwreck in history, the Titanic.

But somewhere along the journey, 3.8 kilometres down into the hostile depths of the north Atlantic Ocean, catastrophe struck. As Amelia Adams reports, valuable lessons must be learned from this tragedy. The brutal reality is this wasn’t an adventure. Rather, like the Titanic, it was a disaster just waiting to happen.

 

 

Seems a bit of a stretch to me. More likely a case of a bad combination of arrogance and stupidity. 

[Maple Leaf]

I'll wait for all the facts to come out about the Titan before drawing my conclusions about causes of the accident.

 

But I do take exception to the "Titanic was an accident waiting to happen" line.  Titanic had two sister ships, identical in design.  First built was the Olympic, which was launched a year before Titanic, successfully completed it's maiden voyage to New York amid great fanfare, and sailed the oceans without incident until it was scrapped after about 25 years.  Titanic probably would have had a similar career.

 

We all know the circumstances of the Titanic's loss, and human error was the biggest factor. No ship ever built, or ever will be built, is "unsinkable."  It was a foolish thing for anyone to say.

 

The other sister ship, the Britannic, the third of the three, hit a mine and sank in the Aegean Sea in WWI.

 

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

49 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

The other sister ship, the Britannic, the third of the three, hit a mine and sank in the Aegean Sea in WWI.

 

 

The Brittanic was unlucky.  It hit a mine but had the portholes  open orders.  Had those portholes not been open it should have survived. 
 

 

[CavySlaveJambo]

On 14/07/2023 at 06:55, Smithee said:

 

Not real according to these guys

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/titan-sub-transcript/

There is two pieces of evidence at play here. One journalist with a list of codes,  and then a BBC film that shows text being sent back and forth.   Either of these could have been true, and Snopes are heavily relying on a photo from a journalist. 

[Maple Leaf]

12 minutes ago, CavySlaveJambo said:

The Brittanic was unlucky.  It hit a mine but had the portholes  open orders.  Had those portholes not been open it should have survived. 
 

 

That's right.  Despite it being a hospital ship, "only" 30 lives were lost.  They were crewmen who foolishly launched two lifeboats while the engines were still running.  The lifeboats and the 30 men were chopped to bits by the propellers.

 

The wreck was located in the 1970s by Jacques Cousteau and is still in good shape,

[rudi must stay]

The next thing they should do surely is raise the titanic

[Maple Leaf]

36 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

The next thing they should do surely is raise the titanic

That would certainly reduce the need for submersibles.

[JFK-1]

I thought it was significant that one guy who went down mentioned loud gunshot like cracking sounds every few minutes. Now i'm no engineer nor materials expert, but that noise has to be the body of the hull being contracted, right?

And such a sound sharp as he describes it cannot be anything but internal flaws developing in the material, cracks. I don't know if that guy went back down, I wouldn't have. And I would never have gone down in a craft made of that material again.

Plus given it wasn't even the optimal shape, a sphere is the optimal shape, I think this was a disaster waiting to happen. I think experienced people in the industry knew it, and this Stockton Rush guy had to know that if a disaster isn't exactly certain, it's likely, at best.

I don't know if his mindset was as suicidal and even malevolent as they think it might have been, given the opinion of people who knew a lot more than he did it was beyond negligent.   

[JFK-1]

On 30/07/2023 at 10:59, Maple Leaf said:

I'll wait for all the facts to come out about the Titan before drawing my conclusions about causes of the accident.

 

But I do take exception to the "Titanic was an accident waiting to happen" line.  Titanic had two sister ships, identical in design.  First built was the Olympic, which was launched a year before Titanic, successfully completed it's maiden voyage to New York amid great fanfare, and sailed the oceans without incident until it was scrapped after about 25 years.  Titanic probably would have had a similar career.

 

We all know the circumstances of the Titanic's loss, and human error was the biggest factor. No ship ever built, or ever will be built, is "unsinkable."  It was a foolish thing for anyone to say.

 

The other sister ship, the Britannic, the third of the three, hit a mine and sank in the Aegean Sea in WWI.

 

 

 

Yes they phrased that very poorly. Titanic was a good ship which was run into an iceberg at top speed, any ship would have gone down. They knew there was ice they should have stopped or at least slowed down. The ship was not to blame