Time for another rethink?

[Rudy T]

With 3rd place looking increasingly unlikely I think this might be a good time to have a think about where the money is going, what our recruitment strategy is, have an honest evaluation of our academy and look at what type of manager and coaching staff are required at all levels.

 

 If we did get 3rd, the club will go head first into the market trying to buy ready made players, and I’m not convinced that’s going to serve us we’ll longer term.

 

What Naismith has shown is there is absolutely no correlation between the first team and the academy, his style and Neilsons are so very different, is that why we don’t see any youngsters in the team?

 

If you look at the teams down south who are outperforming their size, such as Brighton, it comes down to clever recruitment coupled with actual coaching, not just a manager looking for ready made players but bringing in talent and making them better, surely it’s the only way for us to grow. I’m aware this isn’t a new concept or earth shattering news but we’re not getting it right.

 

The academy players should be mirroring the first team, the manager should be able to coach along with his staff.

 

Perhaps it’s time to look at every level of player and coach, be very ruthless and replace those not up to the job.

 

That first team squad has so many deficiencies it’s hard to believe we’ve spent so much money, we can’t defend cross balls, we’re too slow through midfield and there’s a number of players who just coast through games because IMO they are simply not good enough to implement a game plan and are way beyond learning now.

[jbee647]

You make many good points, but as a Hearts fan you only have to read this forum to realise there is absolutely no chance our fan base will be patient with inconsistency until things “might “ improve 

At a club like Hearts with our fan base there is absolutely no appetite for long  term planing or projects.

Results are everything and 99% of the fan base want the strongest team we can afford on the park at all times

Anything else is just a fantasy 

[Dia Liom]

16 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

What Naismith has shown is there is absolutely no correlation between the first team and the academy, his style and Neilsons are so very different, is that why we don’t see any youngsters in the team?

 

 

What do you mean here?  That Naismith hasn't been able to implement his own (attacking?) style due to the quality of the 1st team squad? 

[RustyRightPeg]

4 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

 

What do you mean here?  That Naismith hasn't been able to implement his own (attacking?) style due to the quality of the 1st team squad? 

I’d go the other way and say Neilson didn’t know how to set us up and play to our strengths properly. 
 

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Worth noting we are the only team that made the top 6 both years, two of last years 3 are 11 and 12, the other sacked 2 managers.

 

Maybe thinking too hard isnt that good either

[GinRummy]

One thing we do need to do is what we said we were doing when we came up from the championship. 
 

Many of the Hearts signings in this window have been in the mid-to-low twenties and Savage explained that the plan was always to lower the age of the squad and target youngsters with points to prove.

“That’s the type we want, young hungry players who wanted to go again.

 

That’s a quote from Joe Savage in September 2021 (link to full article below), we then sign Snodgrass and Grant. Renew Hallidays contract, taking up a wage and renew Michael Smith and Peter Haring , who although have been great servants are hardly going to give you the dynamism that youth should bring. 
 

My long winded point is, if we ain’t getting young players through from our youth team then we have to buy them in, like we did with Lewis Neilson, until we do. 
 

https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2021/09/joe-savage-reflects-on-a-successful-summer-window-at-hearts/

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

17 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Worth noting we are the only team that made the top 6 both years, two of last years 3 are 11 and 12, the other sacked 2 managers.

 

Maybe thinking too hard isnt that good either

Hardly a great achievement with out budget ! Set low expectations and that's what you'll accept 

[Ricardo Quaresma]

Let's just ****ing skelp the sheep before concluding anything

 

Do you run your life on assumptions & gambles?

[Valois No1]

With a wage bill several 100%s more than most clubs in the league, its criminal we don't win almost every game out with the OF and Aberdeen and even the scum (both have similar budgets). Any style should win against Livi and co and I certainly don't have the patience to watch us getting beat off these teams regularly whilst our players pick up 1000's more a week than they do. We have become way to soft as a club. Blood doesn't show on a maroon jersey should be the first message we tell new players. HHGH

[i8hibsh]

Every part of the football club has benefited since the FoH apart from the men's first team.  This pretty much tells me there is a serious lack of focus.

 

Said it so many times over the past 10 years that I bore myself but the men's first team winning football games is simply not a top priority.

 

 

 

 

[i8hibsh]

I get that our resources are eclipsed by the bigot twins but ffs Celtic are almost 50 points above us and we are only a few points here and there ahead of clubs with a fraction of ours.

[JamboAl]

I think a rethink MAY already begun.

Snodgrass and Humphrys have been emptied with the possibility of other journeymen to follow to make space for new signings AND to allow the likes of Wilson, Stevenson, Rathie, McCluckie etc to get bedded in over the course of next season.  History shows not all of these graduates will be a success.

Add to that the delay in appointing a new manager which suggests they want to get it right but I would suspect such a plan would take more than one season to yield the desired dividends and, if next season was to be transitional, so be it.

I know it is not easy to get rid of contracted players but I doubt if Savage or any Board member can realistically believe that players such as Halliday, Grant, Stewart (to name but three) are anywhere near the calibre we need to take us much closer to the arse cheeks.

[H2]

5 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I think a rethink MAY already begun.

Snodgrass and Humphrys have been emptied with the possibility of other journeymen to follow to make space for new signings AND to allow the likes of Wilson, Stevenson, Rathie, McCluckie etc to get bedded in over the course of next season.  History shows not all of these graduates will be a success.

Add to that the delay in appointing a new manager which suggests they want to get it right but I would suspect such a plan would take more than one season to yield the desired dividends and, if next season was to be transitional, so be it.

I know it is not easy to get rid of contracted players but I doubt if Savage or any Board member can realistically believe that players such as Halliday, Grant, Stewart (to name but three) are anywhere near the calibre we need to take us much closer to the arse cheeks.

Humphreys emptied? When did that happen?

[Dia Liom]

1 hour ago, RustyRightPeg said:

I’d go the other way and say Neilson didn’t know how to set us up and play to our strengths properly. 
 

 

I don’t disagree with you. Do you think Naismith has made much of a difference?

[i8hibsh]

Naismith 1 win in 4 and conceded first in 3 of the 4 games.

 

It is pretty much as it was.

Edited May 15, 2023 by i8hibsh

[soonbe110]

31 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

I think a rethink MAY already begun.

Snodgrass and Humphrys have been emptied with the possibility of other journeymen to follow to make space for new signings AND to allow the likes of Wilson, Stevenson, Rathie, McCluckie etc to get bedded in over the course of next season.  History shows not all of these graduates will be a success.

Add to that the delay in appointing a new manager which suggests they want to get it right but I would suspect such a plan would take more than one season to yield the desired dividends and, if next season was to be transitional, so be it.

I know it is not easy to get rid of contracted players but I doubt if Savage or any Board member can realistically believe that players such as Halliday, Grant, Stewart (to name but three) are anywhere near the calibre we need to take us much closer to the arse cheeks.

Suspect the four young guys you mention have been signed to play in the Lowland League not the top league. We need a LL squad of at least 20 players for next season. 
Savage signed Grant and gave Halliday a new contract. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

6 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Naismith 1 win in 4 and conceded first in 3 of the 4 games.

 

It is pretty much as it was.

Nausmith blameless imo , the problems had festered before he took over but in saying that I don't want Naismith getting the job

[RustyRightPeg]

11 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

I don’t disagree with you. Do you think Naismith has made much of a difference?

I think our identity is a lot clearer. Front foot, higher intensity and press high where possible. 
 

Later stages under Neilson I don’t really know what we were trying to do. It was passive at best. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

Hardly a great achievement with out budget ! Set low expectations and that's what you'll accept 

Better achievement than Hibs or Aberdeen though eh?

[ramrod]

6 minutes ago, RustyRightPeg said:

I think our identity is a lot clearer. Front foot, higher intensity and press high where possible. 
 

Later stages under Neilson I don’t really know what we were trying to do. It was passive at best. 

Wasn't in evidence much on Saturday , it basically looked like an away performance under Neilson. Infact if we hadn't got that last minute penalty most fans would have been absolutely raging at the performance yet again.

Hibs game was much the same although that was early doors.

Anything less than 2 home wins in our next 3 games and the Naismith experiment is dead in the water for me.

[Bull's-eye]

Some supporters should lower their expectations and the seethe function in their tiny brains. 

 

Just about every thread on here lately started by the same few doomongers with noted additions from a few more depressed doomongers is all about how Shit everything is. 

 

It's just not, we're still in with a chance of 3rd, we have a great chance of getting into Europe again.

 

It's like a concerted effort is being made to look smart and attempt to suck the enjoyment out of supporting the club. Seriously,  it's much more enjoyable supporting the club and looking at the good things rather than disappearing up your own arse desperately searching for anything to moan and grizzle about. 

 

 

[Des Lynam]

2 hours ago, Rudy T said:

With 3rd place looking increasingly unlikely I think this might be a good time to have a think about where the money is going, what our recruitment strategy is, have an honest evaluation of our academy and look at what type of manager and coaching staff are required at all levels.

 

 If we did get 3rd, the club will go head first into the market trying to buy ready made players, and I’m not convinced that’s going to serve us we’ll longer term.

 

What Naismith has shown is there is absolutely no correlation between the first team and the academy, his style and Neilsons are so very different, is that why we don’t see any youngsters in the team?

 

If you look at the teams down south who are outperforming their size, such as Brighton, it comes down to clever recruitment coupled with actual coaching, not just a manager looking for ready made players but bringing in talent and making them better, surely it’s the only way for us to grow. I’m aware this isn’t a new concept or earth shattering news but we’re not getting it right.

 

The academy players should be mirroring the first team, the manager should be able to coach along with his staff.

 

Perhaps it’s time to look at every level of player and coach, be very ruthless and replace those not up to the job.

 

That first team squad has so many deficiencies it’s hard to believe we’ve spent so much money, we can’t defend cross balls, we’re too slow through midfield and there’s a number of players who just coast through games because IMO they are simply not good enough to implement a game plan and are way beyond learning now.

It might hinder us initially but I’d ban all loan deals except those with an option to buy. The other question is do we go down the data driven route that has worked so well for other clubs? Do we have the profile or funds available to make it work? 
 

The noises from the club have been that academy players must have a pathway to the first team and this simply hasn’t been happening. Maybe that’s why Naismith might be the preferred candidate. 
 

Naismith highlighted after the match that the players didn’t follow instructions and this was more than obvious at times under Neilson. We seem to sign nice players but it’s about time we signed some right utter *****. Those with real drive and passion. 

 

We seem completely lost in styles of football. We play a possession game with statistics so impressive I’ve barely seen whilst watching Hearts but we’re so ineffective most times it’s frustrating to watch. 

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, Bull's-eye said:

Some supporters should lower their expectations and the seethe function in their tiny brains. 

 

Just about every thread on here lately started by the same few doomongers with noted additions from a few more depressed doomongers is all about how Shit everything is. 

 

It's just not, we're still in with a chance of 3rd, we have a great chance of getting into Europe again.

 

It's like a concerted effort is being made to look smart and attempt to suck the enjoyment out of supporting the club. Seriously,  it's much more enjoyable supporting the club and looking at the good things rather than disappearing up your own arse desperately searching for anything to moan and grizzle about. 

 

 

Honestly you aren’t that bright to be questioning the intelligence of others. 
 

You called the Aberdeen away game pre split a free hit. A free hit ffs. 
 

Madness. 

[RustyRightPeg]

10 minutes ago, ramrod said:

Wasn't in evidence much on Saturday , it basically looked like an away performance under Neilson. Infact if we hadn't got that last minute penalty most fans would have been absolutely raging at the performance yet again.

Hibs game was much the same although that was early doors.

Anything less than 2 home wins in our next 3 games and the Naismith experiment is dead in the water for me.

I think that’s more on the players than Naismith though - I’ve barked on about it today but they look so comfortable and bar a few, they don’t look like they care about losing enough. 
 

I’m confident Naismith will get the best out this group in the home games left. If we could sneak a point at Ibrox then we’re right in it. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

18 minutes ago, Lord Beni of Gorgie said:

Better achievement than Hibs or Aberdeen though eh?

They haven't got the amount of season ticket holders we have , they haven't got £140+ foh money every month nor have they got James Anderson plus others 

[Carter]

1 hour ago, Valois No1 said:

With a wage bill several 100%s more than most clubs in the league, its criminal we don't win almost every game out with the OF and Aberdeen and even the scum (both have similar budgets). Any style should win against Livi and co and I certainly don't have the patience to watch us getting beat off these teams regularly whilst our players pick up 1000's more a week than they do. We have become way to soft as a club. Blood doesn't show on a maroon jersey should be the first message we tell new players. HHGH

3 away wins all season endorses your point. Huge under achievement. 

 

We should be taking maximum points off a number of clubs in this league yet we don't. Two points from three games against Livingston for example. There's just no legitimate grounds to even try and justify that. 

[Carter]

1 minute ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

They haven't got the amount of season ticket holders we have , they haven't got £140+ foh money every month nor have they got James Anderson plus others 

Correct. Pointing out this reality doesn't appear to sit well with some of our support. 

 

Hearts have largely served up a pile of shite away from home for the past 20 years or so. We've convinced ourselves that Perth and Paisley etc are really hard places to go and win. 

 

A club of our scale in this domestic environment should be sitting with far more than 49 points from 35 games. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

3 minutes ago, Carter said:

Correct. Pointing out this reality doesn't appear to sit well with some of our support. 

 

Hearts have largely served up a pile of shite away from home for the past 20 years or so. We've convinced ourselves that Perth and Paisley etc are really hard places to go and win. 

 

A club of our scale in this domestic environment should be sitting with far more than 49 points from 35 games. 

Simply not good enough 

[Doc Rob]

1 hour ago, H2 said:

Humphreys emptied? When did that happen?

Club announced yesterday that he has gone back to Wigan and won’t play for us again this season.

 

Official reason is because Wigan have been relegated and he needs to be there to secure his future. Rumours are of a bust-up at training.

[Kev1998]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

Correct. Pointing out this reality doesn't appear to sit well with some of our support. 

 

Hearts have largely served up a pile of shite away from home for the past 20 years or so. We've convinced ourselves that Perth and Paisley etc are really hard places to go and win. 

 

A club of our scale in this domestic environment should be sitting with far more than 49 points from 35 games. 

10000000% right lad

[jr ewing]

34 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

Club announced yesterday that he has gone back to Wigan and won’t play for us again this season.

 

Official reason is because Wigan have been relegated and he needs to be there to secure his future. Rumours are of a bust-up at training.

Chasing Wigan for his wages. 

[Bazzas right boot]

2 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

Naismith 1 win in 4 and conceded first in 3 of the 4 games.

 

It is pretty much as it was.

 

Because the defensive issues won't be fixed untill the transfer window.

 

He's pissing with the same cock as Bob.

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

They haven't got the amount of season ticket holders we have , they haven't got £140+ foh money every month nor have they got James Anderson plus others 

 

Aberdeen also weren't relegated/ demoted twice in the last 10 years and had ti rebuild.

[Cruyff]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

Correct. Pointing out this reality doesn't appear to sit well with some of our support. 

 

Hearts have largely served up a pile of shite away from home for the past 20 years or so. We've convinced ourselves that Perth and Paisley etc are really hard places to go and win. 

 

A club of our scale in this domestic environment should be sitting with far more than 49 points from 35 games. 

Some of them seem to be trapped in a time warp where they think it's still the 90's. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Carter said:

Correct. Pointing out this reality doesn't appear to sit well with some of our support. 

 

Hearts have largely served up a pile of shite away from home for the past 20 years or so. We've convinced ourselves that Perth and Paisley etc are really hard places to go and win. 

 

A club of our scale in this domestic environment should be sitting with far more than 49 points from 35 games. 

 

 

And yet you and others constantly hounded out the only manager to deliver 3rd place finishes in the last 10 years.

 

You cannae make it up sometimes. 

 

 

[Rudy T]

1 hour ago, Bull's-eye said:

Some supporters should lower their expectations and the seethe function in their tiny brains. 

 

Just about every thread on here lately started by the same few doomongers with noted additions from a few more depressed doomongers is all about how Shit everything is. 

 

It's just not, we're still in with a chance of 3rd, we have a great chance of getting into Europe again.

 

It's like a concerted effort is being made to look smart and attempt to suck the enjoyment out of supporting the club. Seriously,  it's much more enjoyable supporting the club and looking at the good things rather than disappearing up your own arse desperately searching for anything to moan and grizzle about. 

 

 

I hardly think suggesting a way to better the clubs playing squad through a different approach using our fairly fortune financial situation is doomongering ffs.

 

I think you’ll struggle to find many of my posts that predict Armageddon. 
 

From what we’ve witnessed this season a more joined up approach with well coached players from academy upwards would be better than trying to buy our way to be the recognised consistent 3rd force and compete in Europe more.

[pointon]

We need a five year plan

[Bazzas right boot]

Hopefully the thinking was done before we binned Bob and two players before the season ended.

 

If we're winging it then the likley hood is things will probably get worse for a bit.

 

 

[Rudy T]

3 hours ago, Dia Liom said:

 

What do you mean here?  That Naismith hasn't been able to implement his own (attacking?) style due to the quality of the 1st team squad? 

Naismith wants to play a more direct attacking style, much like what he did with the b team, Neilsons style was very different more deliberate with possession a key stat for him. So the B team learn one way, get to the first team and have to change their approach to get in the team. It’s just not that great a plan really.

[Rudy T]

1 minute ago, Bazzas right boot said:

Hopefully the thinking was done before we binned Bob and two players before the season ended.

 

If we're winging it then the likley hood is things will probably get worse for a bit.

 

 

I don’t believe much thinking was done beyond bin him and see what happens with Naismith. I can’t believe anyone thinks differently to that.

[Bazzas right boot]

9 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

I don’t believe much thinking was done beyond bin him and see what happens with Naismith. I can’t believe anyone thinks differently to that.

 

Well, that's a shit plan and an appointed board when making such big changes should have a ****ing plan tbh.

 

They're not fans that can scream "oot" and just Hope things get better and make snap decisions based on  emotions.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Bazzas right boot

[Bazzas right boot]

11 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

Naismith wants to play a more direct attacking style, much like what he did with the b team, Neilsons style was very different more deliberate with possession a key stat for him. So the B team learn one way, get to the first team and have to change their approach to get in the team. It’s just not that great a plan really.

 

Was the B team doing that well under him and his style?

[Bazzas right boot]

14 minutes ago, pointon said:

We need a five year plan

 

A plan you say?

 

 

 

[WageThief]

We should just copy what teams in other leagues do, where the 3rd biggest budget, finishes at least 3rd every season, and wins 99% of games home and away. 

 

Only in Scotland do we accept the "criminal" behaviour of our clubs.  In other countries there are hearts that are full up like a landfill but there are no cup shocks and no surprises.

 

 

[JamboAl]

2 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Suspect the four young guys you mention have been signed to play in the Lowland League not the top league. We need a LL squad of at least 20 players for next season. 
Savage signed Grant and gave Halliday a new contract. 

You may well be right re the 4 youths.

I agree what you say re Grant and Halliday but we are talking about a rethink and Savage might have to rethink if he currently believes they are realistically capable of closing the gap on the OF.

[soonbe110]

27 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

I don’t believe much thinking was done beyond bin him and see what happens with Naismith. I can’t believe anyone thinks differently to that.

I’d be surprised if that was the case.  Could be though. Dereliction of duty by the Board if true though. 

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

You may well be right re the 4 youths.

I agree what you say re Grant and Halliday but we are talking about a rethink and Savage might have to rethink if he currently believes they are realistically capable of closing the gap on the OF.

He doesn’t though otherwise he is a bigger fool than most of them. Virtually none of the players he has signed would get close to even Rangers and Celtic B teams so how he thinks the likes of Kio, Grant, Hill et al will help us close the gap is mind-boggling. The goal for us has to be to create a gap between us and the other non-OF clubs.  Once that’s established we can start to look upwards. 

[JamboAl]

3 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

He doesn’t though otherwise he is a bigger fool than most of them. Virtually none of the players he has signed would get close to even Rangers and Celtic B teams so how he thinks the likes of Kio, Grant, Hill et al will help us close the gap is mind-boggling. The goal for us has to be to create a gap between us and the other non-OF clubs.  Once that’s established we can start to look upwards. 

But we're not 3rd just now.  We can certainly aim for 3rd and achieve it but creating a gap is not within our power.

[The White Cockade]

Be very interesting to see who the new manager is

Let's hope he's an upgrade and knows what he's doing and gets the players onside going forward

Most on here are against Naismith getting the job but no guarantee the new man will follow

Naismith's tactics of high press and positive attacking approach

What we definitely need are some new players

Defence is awful and need proper ball winning centre backs and a strong right back

Definitely at least one attacking goalscoring midfielder

Decent backup for Shanks and also another pacy winger/forward

I wonder if Mr Anderson will put in money for the transfer kitty but that's bot a sustainable model

going forward

We need to strengthen and then have a proper system to bring through a youngster or two to the

first team squad each season

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Selkirkhmfc1874 said:

They haven't got the amount of season ticket holders we have , they haven't got £140+ foh money every month nor have they got James Anderson plus others 

Bit naive, Aberdeen and Hibs have had plenty cash thrown at it. They also didn't have to recover from a season in the Championship. 

 

But these things don't matter eh, damned truth