Toby Sibbick ( merged )

[sirwalter]

When he's been good he's been very, very good but when...

[Mr Elwood P]

3 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

In what way?

 

I'm saying it as I see it. Not need for a personal attack.

 

We have barely kept a clean sheet when he has played. He cost goals and isn't reliable. 

 

He isn't the only player I'd say isn't good enough but this thread is for him.

 

He doesn't play when Rowles and Halkett are fit. We will strengthen again at CB in January, no doubt it will be someone better than  Sibbick.

He's already played at a higher level than Halkett and will likely play there again. At 23 he's got massive potential to develop into a really top player. He's probably the player who can go for biggest fee if he continues to improve and develop.

[PaddysBar]

53 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Good stuff mate.  Goes a long way in getting him into the club for the next 70 years plus  

That’s already guaranteed. He’s Hearts daft and I’m proud as punch😀

[JAYEL]

3 hours ago, Robbies Tackle said:

He has vastly improved and out of the blue doesn't look like a headless chicken any longer. 

 

God knows what has triggered the transformation but he's really making me eat my words.

 

Well done Toby.  Now a big part of the squad. 

Yeah me too

 

So happy for him and hopefully he kicks on from here

 

Well done Toby. 👏👏👏

[Gorgieshed]

17 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

He's already played at a higher level than Halkett and will likely play there again. At 23 he's got massive potential to develop into a really top player. He's probably the player who can go for biggest fee if he continues to improve and develop.

Eh? 

 

What level is that?

 

Your heads in the clouds mate. Continue to improve? He has been brutal apart from a game against a striker who would be lucky to get a game for anyone in our league. Today, everyone got pass marks but I still blame him for switching off their 2nd goal.

 

Biggest fee? Your seriously at the wind up? Nobody would pay a fee for him just now. Literally the majority of our team would demand a higher fee than him.

[colinmaroon]

Just now, Gorgieshed said:

Eh? 

 

What level is that?

 

Your heads in the clouds mate. Continue to improve? He has been brutal apart from a game against a striker who would be lucky to get a game for anyone in our league. Today, everyone got pass marks but I still blame him for switching off their 2nd goal.

 

Biggest fee? Your seriously at the wind up? Nobody would pay a fee for him just now. Literally the majority of our team would demand a higher fee than him.

 

Oh ma sides!!!

 

 

[Mr Elwood P]

3 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

Eh? 

 

What level is that?

 

Your heads in the clouds mate. Continue to improve? He has been brutal apart from a game against a striker who would be lucky to get a game for anyone in our league. Today, everyone got pass marks but I still blame him for switching off their 2nd goal.

 

Biggest fee? Your seriously at the wind up? Nobody would pay a fee for him just now. Literally the majority of our team would demand a higher fee than him.

Where do you think we got him from? Looking forward to bumping this embarrassing rant in a year or two. Night!

[loveofthegame]

I really really want it to work for him but I’m still not convinced by him. He’s improved a lot recently but from a low bar. Still gets caught out of position, having now seen the highlights he’s a few yards ahead of the rest of the back line for the ball that ends up in behind him for the pen and he’s on his heals for the second when the cross comes in. First is being very harsh, second I think could def have done more.

 

Still v much 4th choice CH at club for me and I’d still like to see another one brought in in January. 
 

Seems a lovely kid but I’m not sure if he’ll ever be a consistent starter for Hearts in a fully fit squad. Something just lacking.

 

Happy for this post to be bookmarked and brought back out if I’m wrong. Time will tell. 

[Naisys Tackle]

5 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

Eh? 

 

What level is that?

 

Your heads in the clouds mate. Continue to improve? He has been brutal apart from a game against a striker who would be lucky to get a game for anyone in our league. Today, everyone got pass marks but I still blame him for switching off their 2nd goal.

 

Biggest fee? Your seriously at the wind up? Nobody would pay a fee for him just now. Literally the majority of our team would demand a higher fee than him.

English Championship level is a step up from Scottish Prem. 

 

You are being extremely critical of a player who is evidently getting better. 

[Gorgieshed]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Where do you think we got him from? Looking forward to bumping this embarrassing rant in a year or two.

Hearts is by far the highest level he has been?

 

I hope you do bump this thread and I am wrong. However from what I've seen, he won't play a higher level than us and he also won't get a game if everyone becomes fit.

[Gorgieshed]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

English Championship level is a step up from Scottish Prem. 

 

You are being extremely critical of a player who is evidently getting better. 

Aye OK then. Someone's been watching too much Sky Sports.

 

There are 4 or 5 teams, yes better standard but ultimately the majority a rank. He came from Barnsley, Hearts are a far bigger Club and standard than Barnsley. 

 

 

[will-i-am-a-jambo]

3 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

English Championship level is a step up from Scottish Prem. 

 

You are being extremely critical of a player who is evidently getting better. 

Your first sentence is controversial. Yes the English Championship is the fourth richest league in Europe but there are some utter shite teams in there. I've been to a few games at that level and Hearts would do well in that league given the same financial footing. 

[Gorgieshed]

4 minutes ago, loveofthegame said:

I really really want it to work for him but I’m still not convinced by him. He’s improved a lot recently but from a low bar. Still gets caught out of position, having now seen the highlights he’s a few yards ahead of the rest of the back line for the ball that ends up in behind him for the pen and he’s on his heals for the second when the cross comes in. First is being very harsh, second I think could def have done more.

 

Still v much 4th choice CH at club for me and I’d still like to see another one brought in in January. 
 

Seems a lovely kid but I’m not sure if he’ll ever be a consistent starter for Hearts in a fully fit squad. Something just lacking.

 

Happy for this post to be bookmarked and brought back out if I’m wrong. Time will tell. 

100% where I'm at.

 

Everyone wants him to do well because his confidence was shattered.

 

His level was so low that it was near impossible not to improve! He is still a weak link and isn't good enough to be a starter at a team like Hearts.

 

Again, would love to be proved wrong.

[bobby bombscare]

Sibbicks recent performances raised the following thoughts for me:

 

With Rowles and Sibbick, we don't need to rush Halkett, we have depth in our defence again. 

 

This is the squad depth that Robbie has been speaking of building (sibbick/halkett at RCB, Kingsley/Rowles at LCB).

 

We could have a future star if he keeps developing (we may even get a fee for him!).  

 

Still think we need another CB and think Neilson could do with 6 months at on loan in the championship to develop playing weekly but Sibbick is coming on leaps and bounds!

[Mr Elwood P]

8 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

Hearts is by far the highest level he has been?

 

I hope you do bump this thread and I am wrong. However from what I've seen, he won't play a higher level than us and he also won't get a game if everyone becomes fit.

Clearly some fundamental gaps in your football knowledge, which explains the failure to see the potential in Sibbick.

[Naisys Tackle]

6 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

Aye OK then. Someone's been watching too much Sky Sports.

 

There are 4 or 5 teams, yes better standard but ultimately the majority a rank. He came from Barnsley, Hearts are a far bigger Club and standard than Barnsley. 

 

 

No there's 4 or 5 teams with a bigger budget than the Old Firm.  Every single team in that league has a bigger budget than us and we are the 3rd biggest in the country. 

 

The standards much higher in that league. 

[hearts00]

40 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

He's already played at a higher level than Halkett and will likely play there again. At 23 he's got massive potential to develop into a really top player. He's probably the player who can go for biggest fee if he continues to improve and develop.

Some truth in this but he needs to develop massively. Shows none of the natural instincts you would expect from a defender. 

[Gorgieshed]

4 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Clearly some fundamental gaps in your football knowledge, which explains the failure to see the potential in Sibbick.

So Barnsley are a higher level than Hearts?

[hearts00]

5 minutes ago, bobby bombscare said:

Sibbicks recent performances raised the following thoughts for me:

 

With Rowles and Sibbick, we don't need to rush Halkett, we have depth in our defence again. 

 

This is the squad depth that Robbie has been speaking of building (sibbick/halkett at RCB, Kingsley/Rowles at LCB).

 

We could have a future star if he keeps developing (we may even get a fee for him!).  

 

Still think we need another CB and think Neilson could do with 6 months at on loan in the championship to develop playing weekly but Sibbick is coming on leaps and bounds!

I kind of know what you are saying but coming in leaps and bounds?

 

The cold facts are he was principally to blame for Celtic’s winning goal, he lost his man for Ross County’s first goal and failed to defend the box for Motherwell’s equaliser. 
 

So he is playing well for long spells in games but is shipping a goal every match. 

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

So Barnsley are a higher level than Hearts?

They league they played in was, yes. 

[Gorgieshed]

7 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Clearly some fundamental gaps in your football knowledge, which explains the failure to see the potential in Sibbick.

 

You're telling me Hearts isn't the highest level club he has played at?

 

Think your knowledge has gaps if you believe that.

 

If your referring to opposition, Rangers, Celtic, Fiorentina and Istanbul will be better than  any team he has faced.

[bobby bombscare]

2 minutes ago, hearts00 said:

I kind of know what you are saying but coming in leaps and bounds?

 

The cold facts are he was principally to blame for Celtic’s winning goal, he lost his man for Ross County’s first goal and failed to defend the box for Motherwell’s equaliser. 
 

So he is playing well for long spells in games but is shipping a goal every match. 

And in our season in the championship, you could have applied all of those things to Halkett for periods of time. He's developing and it is as much about who you play next to to rely on (as we saw with Halkett). 

 

If he is playing next to Halkett, I think we will see more improvement again. As great as Cochrane has been, Cochran is also a young LB being played out of position. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

13 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

Where do you think we got him from? Looking forward to bumping this embarrassing rant in a year or two. Night!

The English Championship?  How many games did he play there?  He wasn’t getting a game, that’s how we got him.  Seems his Barnsley manager didn’t rate him and Robbie clearly doesn’t rate him either.   Only gets a game as a last resort with injuries and when everyone is fit he’s out the team again so can’t see us getting a big transfer fee for him.  Yes, he has time to improve but I don’t see him ever being a good CB, he doesn’t react quick enough to danger.  Maybe more suited to playing RB.

[hearts00]

1 minute ago, bobby bombscare said:

And in our season in the championship, you could have applied all of those things to Halkett for periods of time. He's developing and it is as much about who you play next to to rely on (as we saw with Halkett). 

 

If he is playing next to Halkett, I think we will see more improvement again. As great as Cochrane has been, Cochran is also a young LB being played out of position. 

That is a very fair point. 

[Naisys Tackle]

1 minute ago, Gorgieshed said:

 

You're telling me Hearts isn't the highest level club he has played at?

 

Think your knowledge has gaps if you believe that.

 

If your referring to opposition, Rangers, Celtic, Fiorentina and Istanbul will be better than  any team he has faced.

He came on and scored in a 4-2 win over West Ham so that is incorrect also. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

6 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

So Barnsley are a higher level than Hearts?

They were a couple of seasons ago, not now.

[Gorgieshed]

1 minute ago, Mr Elwood P said:

They league they played in was, yes. 

My god, that doesn't reflect on how good he is or potential for selling on.

 

Thats a league he has played in, not a standard he is at. Barnsley were rotten when he was in the Championship. 

[Mr Elwood P]

2 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

 

You're telling me Hearts isn't the highest level club he has played at?

 

Think your knowledge has gaps if you believe that.

 

If your referring to opposition, Rangers, Celtic, Fiorentina and Istanbul will be better than  any team he has faced.

This is painful.

 

1 minute ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

The English Championship?  How many games did he play there?  He wasn’t getting a game, that’s how we got him.  Seems his Barnsley manager didn’t rate him and Robbie clearly doesn’t rate him either.   Only gets a game as a last resort with injuries and when everyone is fit he’s out the team again so can’t see us getting a big transfer fee for him.  Yes, he has time to improve but I don’t see him ever being a good CB, he doesn’t react quick enough to danger.  Maybe more suited to playing RB.

^

[bobby bombscare]

Just now, hearts00 said:

That is a very fair point. 

Did we just manage to have a civilised debate on Kickback?! What is happening 😂

[Mr Elwood P]

Just now, Gorgieshed said:

My god, that doesn't reflect on how good he is or potential for selling on.

 

Thats a league he has played in, not a standard he is at. Barnsley were rotten when he was in the Championship. 

Wow.

[Gorgieshed]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

He came on and scored in a 4-2 win over West Ham so that is incorrect also. 

Came on against West Ham reserves.  Love it, keep clutching at straws.

 

Sibbick is currently playing for the highest level club he has played at in his career. Fact 

[hearts00]

Just now, bobby bombscare said:

Did we just manage to have a civilised debate on Kickback?! What is happening 😂

The reality is several things can be true at once. Very few things in life are black or white.  
 

We’ve established:

 

1) sibbick is improving but still costing us goals. 
2) He would benefit greatly from playing next to a dominant CB who can talk him through the game.

3) He has all the physical attributes to make it and has great potential. 

 

 

[loveofthegame]

7 minutes ago, hearts00 said:

I kind of know what you are saying but coming in leaps and bounds?

 

The cold facts are he was principally to blame for Celtic’s winning goal, he lost his man for Ross County’s first goal and failed to defend the box for Motherwell’s equaliser. 
 

So he is playing well for long spells in games but is shipping a goal every match. 

Yep. That’s my issue. He does some positive things in games but gets caught out of position weekly. He also lacks composure at times and I’m still not sure he’s aggressive enough.

 

Hes got the physical attributes- I remain unconvinced he’s got the mental and technical attributes. 
 

As I’ve already said, time will tell but I can’t wait to have Halkett back. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

7 minutes ago, Mr Elwood P said:

This is painful.

 

^

Bookmark it and come back to me when we sell him for millions then.

[Naisys Tackle]

2 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

Came on against West Ham reserves.  Love it, keep clutching at straws.

 

Sibbick is currently playing for the highest level club he has played at in his career. Fact 

Yes because Fiorentina played their best team right enough.  

 

It wasn't a reserve team either it was 1st team.  

 

Stop moving the goalposts.

 

He's played at a higher level.  Fact.  He's played against bigger clubs.  Fact. 

[Gorgieshed]

2 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

Yes because Fiorentina played their best team right enough.  

 

It wasn't a reserve team either it was 1st team.  

 

Stop moving the goalposts.

 

He's played at a higher level.  Fact.  He's played against bigger clubs.  Fact. 

No he hasn't.

 

Rangers and Celtic are far bigger clubs than his cameo vs West Ham.

 

Hearts are a bigger club than Barnsley.

 

Playing Europa Conference is a higher level than Championship.

[Naisys Tackle]

3 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

No he hasn't.

 

Rangers and Celtic are far bigger clubs than his cameo vs West Ham.

 

Hearts are a bigger club than Barnsley.

 

Playing Europa Conference is a higher level than Championship.

No Rangers or Celtic players would get in the West Ham team.   They are nowhere near as big anymore.  Sorry.  They even have 60000 sell outs every week.

 

We are.  But the level we play at is lower than the Championship.

 

No it's not.  None of the big leagues even take take the Conference seriously, especially the group stages. 

[Gorgieshed]

3 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

No Rangers or Celtic players would get in the West Ham team.   They are nowhere near as big anymore.  Sorry.  They even have 60000 sell outs every week.

 

We are.  But the level we play at is lower than the Championship.

 

No it's not.  None of the big leagues even take take the Conference seriously, especially the group stages. 

That wasn't the debate who would get in what team. You said played against bigger clubs. Celtic and Rangers far bigger clubs than West Ham, in every way shape or form.  Only money pumped in by Sky and the Premier League make them get better players. I'd still argue Celtic would beat them over 2 legs.

 

Hearts are bigger than Barnsley.

 

Istanbul and Fiorentina would get promoted or be in playoffs in the Championship 100%.

 

Apart from a cameo against West Ham, he hasn't played against better quality opposition than the 4 I mentioned. 

 

He is playing in the best team he has ever been at and hasn't faced harder opposition than he has this season anywhere he has played. 

 

I don't see how that can even be argued with?

[Fozzyonthefence]

15 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

No Rangers or Celtic players would get in the West Ham team.   They are nowhere near as big anymore.  Sorry.  They even have 60000 sell outs every week.

 

We are.  But the level we play at is lower than the Championship.

 

No it's not.  None of the big leagues even take take the Conference seriously, especially the group stages. 

What’s West Ham got to do with anything?  He came on as a sub for League 1 Wimbledon in the 86th minute against them once!  Sibbick can’t get in the Hearts team when everyone is fit never mind West Ham.  Doesn’t really matter if he’s played against West Ham, Fiorentina, Istanbul, Rangers or Celtic, what does matter is the goals he concedes against them and whether he learns from them or not.  I see the same mistakes getting repeated again and again.  
 

I didn’t see the game today so not sure how he played but saw the highlights and Motherwell’s 2nd goal I’d say is a very typical goal we’re getting used to losing when Sibbick plays - caught on his heels, not quick enough to react. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Fozzyonthefence

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, Gorgieshed said:

That wasn't the debate who would get in what team. You said played against bigger clubs. Celtic and Rangers far bigger clubs than West Ham, in every way shape or form.  Only money pumped in by Sky and the Premier League make them get better players. I'd still argue Celtic would beat them over 2 legs.

 

Hearts are bigger than Barnsley.

 

Istanbul and Fiorentina would get promoted or be in playoffs in the Championship 100%.

 

Apart from a cameo against West Ham, he hasn't played against better quality opposition than the 4 I mentioned. 

 

He is playing in the best team he has ever been at and hasn't faced harder opposition than he has this season anywhere he has played. 

 

I don't see how that can even be argued with?

Does it matter?  What matters is he struggles against wee teams like Motherwell, Ross County, etc.  Needs to play like he did against RFS on a much more regular basis before he is likely to be a regular starter for Hearts. 

[Naisys Tackle]

2 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

That wasn't the debate who would get in what team. You said played against bigger clubs. Celtic and Rangers far bigger clubs than West Ham, in every way shape or form.  Only money pumped in by Sky and the Premier League make them get better players. I'd still argue Celtic would beat them over 2 legs.

 

Hearts are bigger than Barnsley.

 

Istanbul and Fiorentina would get promoted or be in playoffs in the Championship 100%.

 

Apart from a cameo against West Ham, he hasn't played against better quality opposition than the 4 I mentioned. 

 

He is playing in the best team he has ever been at and hasn't faced harder opposition than he has this season anywhere he has played. 

 

I don't see how that can even be argued with?

 

What way are they bigger clubs?  Budget?  Wages?  Attendances?  League they play in?    They completely dwarf the Old Firm in every aspect.   Celtic can't even beat the Ukranian side playing in Poland home or away.  

 

So apart from West Ham now then?  nobodys even heard of the Turkish team tbh. 

 

He is playing in the best team though I would agree.  Playing in that team that gets pumbled off Rangers and Celtic doesn't make it a good standard when the rest is against shite like Hibs and Ross County. 

 

 

[Gorgieshed]

3 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

Does it matter?  What matters is he struggles against wee teams like Motherwell, Ross County, etc.  Needs to play like he did against RFS on a much more regular basis before he is likely to be a regular starter for Hearts. 

Oh I agree with you. 

 

I don't think he is good enough for our level, that's my point.

[Naisys Tackle]

7 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

What’s West Ham got to do with anything?  He came on as a sub for League 1 Wimbledon in the 86th minute against them once!  Sibbick can’t get in the Hearts team when everyone is fit never mind West Ham.  Doesn’t really matter if he’s played against West Ham, Fiorentina, Istanbul, Rangers or Celtic, what does matter is the goals he concedes against them and whether he learns from them or not.  I see the same mistakes getting repeated again and again.  
 

I didn’t see the game today, only the highlights, so not sure how he played but saw the highlights and Motherwell’s 2nd goal I’d say is a very typical goal we’re getting used to losing when Sibbick plays - caught on his heels, not quick enough to react. 

 

Was in reply to him never playing against bigger clubs.   Or a higher level. 

 

He may or may not end up really good for us but that was untrue. 

[Gorgieshed]

19 minutes ago, Robbies Tackle said:

No Rangers or Celtic players would get in the West Ham team.   They are nowhere near as big anymore.  Sorry.  They even have 60000 sell outs every week.

 

We are.  But the level we play at is lower than the Championship.

 

No it's not.  None of the big leagues even take take the Conference seriously, especially the group stages. 

The West Ham team Sibbick got 4 minutes against.

[Gorgieshed]

1 minute ago, Robbies Tackle said:

 

Was in reply to him never playing against bigger clubs.   Or a higher level. 

 

He may or may not end up really good for us but that was untrue. 

And I am correct.

 

He hasn't, isn't really hard to see or understand. 

 

He is at his highest level now, Hearts. Which IMO he isn't good enough for.

[Fozzyonthefence]

1 minute ago, Gorgieshed said:

Oh I agree with you. 

 

I don't think he is good enough for our level, that's my point.

He certainly hasn’t been good enough for us so far.  But the RFS game showed he maybe can be.  I’m not convinced it will be at CB though, he makes too many mistakes there imo.  Maybe a spell at RB would benefit him.

[Naisys Tackle]

3 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

The West Ham team Sibbick got 4 minutes against.

 

Not one reserve player.  

[Naisys Tackle]

2 minutes ago, Gorgieshed said:

And I am correct.

 

He hasn't, isn't really hard to see or understand. 

 

He is at his highest level now, Hearts. Which IMO he isn't good enough for.

 

As a club.  Yes.

 

As a league.  No. 

[john thomas]

45 minutes ago, loveofthegame said:

Yep. That’s my issue. He does some positive things in games but gets caught out of position weekly. He also lacks composure at times and I’m still not sure he’s aggressive enough.

 

Hes got the physical attributes- I remain unconvinced he’s got the mental and technical attributes. 
 

As I’ve already said, time will tell but I can’t wait to have Halkett back. 

Think he gets better all the time .

Wee physical confrontation with Moult today perhaps shows a stronger mental attitude ?

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, loveofthegame said:

I really really want it to work for him but I’m still not convinced by him. He’s improved a lot recently but from a low bar. Still gets caught out of position, having now seen the highlights he’s a few yards ahead of the rest of the back line for the ball that ends up in behind him for the pen and he’s on his heals for the second when the cross comes in. First is being very harsh, second I think could def have done more.

 

Still v much 4th choice CH at club for me and I’d still like to see another one brought in in January. 
 

Seems a lovely kid but I’m not sure if he’ll ever be a consistent starter for Hearts in a fully fit squad. Something just lacking.

 

Happy for this post to be bookmarked and brought back out if I’m wrong. Time will tell. 

 

Second was Smith's fault.