VAR ( merged )

[August Landmesser]

14 minutes ago, brux said:

I GLT not already in operation with the watch buzz anyway?

Nope.

[manaliveits105]

8 hours ago, Australis said:

Only two sides in Scotland will constantly benefit from VAR.

 

The cheating will continue on all the big screens for everyone to see.

 

 

Brought in now to ensure the uglies had settled in 1st and 2nd before any potential controversial var decisions 

[The Hogfather]

13 hours ago, brux said:

I GLT not already in operation with the watch buzz anyway?

Not in Scotland, no. 

[The Old Tolbooth]

2 minutes ago, The Hogfather said:

Not in Scotland, no. 

 

I honestly thought it was 

[The Hogfather]

3 hours ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

I honestly thought it was 

 

No idea if it's been installed at Tynecastle, Ibrox and Parkhead for the benefit of European games, but it's certainly not in use for domestic duty.

[The Old Tolbooth]

3 minutes ago, The Hogfather said:

 

No idea if it's been installed at Tynecastle, Ibrox and Parkhead for the benefit of European games, but it's certainly not in use for domestic duty.

 

Ah right, cheers for that, I've no idea why I thought it was, and it's messing with my head  

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

3 hours ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

Ah right, cheers for that, I've no idea why I thought it was, and it's messing with my head  

 

It was used in the cup final a couple of years ago, Stephen Kingsley's goal. 

[The Old Tolbooth]

13 hours ago, Stupid Sexy Flanders said:

 

It was used in the cup final a couple of years ago, Stephen Kingsley's goal. 

 

Thanks for that

[Rogue Daddy]

...apologies if this has already been posted. Thought it was a decent article on how VAR will be used from this weekend.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63309192

 

VAR in Scotland: How will it work in the Premiership?

[TexasAndy]

Hopefully will highlight Martin Boyle's diving skills.

[Tommy Brown]

1 hour ago, TexasAndy said:

Hopefully will highlight Martin Boyle's diving skills.

Don't forget Porto (media's darling of the moment)

[Ribble]

2 hours ago, Rogue Daddy said:

...apologies if this has already been posted. Thought it was a decent article on how VAR will be used from this weekend.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63309192

 

VAR in Scotland: How will it work in the Premiership?

 

Summary

 

We'll not get a straight red but expect plenty 2nd bookings against the OF as yellows/2nd yellow's are not reviewed by VAR

We'll get plenty pen's against awarded retrospectively and plenty pens for will be revoked for a made up foul in the build up

We'll have plenty goals for revoked for fouls in the build up

The only time there's a mistaken identity our player that's incorrectly been sent off will have already left the field of play and VAR can't get involved

Ref's can still cheat like normal around throw in's, corners and yellow cards

[Rogue Daddy]

7 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Summary

 

We'll not get a straight red but expect plenty 2nd bookings against the OF as yellows/2nd yellow's are not reviewed by VAR

We'll get plenty pen's against awarded retrospectively and plenty pens for will be revoked for a made up foul in the build up

We'll have plenty goals for revoked for fouls in the build up

The only time there's a mistaken identity our player that's incorrectly been sent off will have already left the field of play and VAR can't get involved

Ref's can still cheat like normal around throw in's, corners and yellow cards

😆... pretty much!

 

I've said before (elsewhere) i think we'll see more penalties given (ie. for the uglies when they need one) at corners. There's always shirt pulling and pushing going on at corners, now (selectively) this is where they'll get their pens IMO.

[Rudy T]

Is this it fully implemented at all grounds or is it just being trialed at ER tonight??

[Ribble]

3 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

Is this it fully implemented at all grounds or is it just being trialed at ER tonight??

All top flight games from tonight although only half the teams have big screens for the VAR decisions to be displayed, rest will just be stadium announcers 

[Wee Mikey]

From our own site:-

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/var-explainer

[Rudy T]

29 minutes ago, Ribble said:

All top flight games from tonight although only half the teams have big screens for the VAR decisions to be displayed, rest will just be stadium announcers 

It’s just tinpot really. There’s going to be no confusion with that set up 😂

[Ribble]

48 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

It’s just tinpot really. There’s going to be no confusion with that set up 😂

Not to mention that it’s 6 cameras as a default but at least 12 if the game is on telly, so non televised matches will have less angles to check and TV games the var delay could be longer

[Saint Jambo]

So a couple of things to be aware of....

 

- The late flagging of offsides will be even worse.

 

In the event of a close call, now the linesmen won't flag until either a goal is scored or it is clear a goal won't be scored from that phase of play. I find the delayed flag really irritating and worse than the delay for checking goals. It really breaks up the flow of the game. Deciding when it is 'a close call' is also another way for officials to subtly bias the results (intenonally or not) leaving the flag down for OF attacks on the grounds the call is close but flagging immediately for opponent attacks on the grounds it is not close. If a linesman flags but it is shown to be onside, it is too late for the VAR to do anything.

 

- There will potentially be a lot more added time.

 

The time for VAR checks will potentially be added to the end of each half. We will see more 90+ minute goals as a result. Also worth being aware of if you use public transport and have a tight connection after games, especially mid-week.

[Ribble]

Another thing to be aware of is that if a Pen is missed (either wide, high or off the woodwork) then there should be no VAR check on whether or not the keeper is off his line as he's not had a material impact 

[TexasAndy]

30 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

So a couple of things to be aware of....

 

- The late flagging of offsides will be even worse.

 

In the event of a close call, now the linesmen won't flag until either a goal is scored or it is clear a goal won't be scored from that phase of play. I find the delayed flag really irritating and worse than the delay for checking goals. It really breaks up the flow of the game. Deciding when it is 'a close call' is also another way for officials to subtly bias the results (intenonally or not) leaving the flag down for OF attacks on the grounds the call is close but flagging immediately for opponent attacks on the grounds it is not close. If a linesman flags but it is shown to be onside, it is too late for the VAR to do anything.

 

- There will potentially be a lot more added time.

 

The time for VAR checks will potentially be added to the end of each half. We will see more 90+ minute goals as a result. Also worth being aware of if you use public transport and have a tight connection after games, especially mid-week.

That delayed flag thing can be infuriating although I do think it was designed to avoid play stopping in the event the player might be onside when the linesman has flagged.  It defo needs refined.  

[Jammy T]

On 15/10/2022 at 12:41, MattyK82 said:

Apparently it’s been operated without goal line technology 😳

 

On 15/10/2022 at 13:11, MattyK82 said:

I think so, but it seems crazy having VAR without GLT too! 🤯 Considering the aim of the game is to score goals! 😂

 

VAR and GLT are different systems/software.

 

As I understand it, part of VAR's role in deciding whether a goal is valid will be to use the cameras to check the ball has cross the line.

 

So there will be no "hawkeye" type software and a buzzer on the ref's arm but VAR will check every stage in the move to the goal, including whether or not it crossed the line.

[dougal]

On 16/10/2022 at 13:48, Dazo said:

Decent watch. The final test game though really showed potential problems over the penalty incident. 3 of them looking at it weren’t sure and changed their mind several times before basically saying **** it penalty stands. If they weren’t sure it really should have been no pen imo. 

To me it looked like they got the final decision wrong. Was never a penalty.  Just goes to show that there will still be incidents where people disagree. 

[Thunder and Lightning]

2 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Summary

 

We'll not get a straight red but expect plenty 2nd bookings against the OF as yellows/2nd yellow's are not reviewed by VAR

We'll get plenty pen's against awarded retrospectively and plenty pens for will be revoked for a made up foul in the build up

We'll have plenty goals for revoked for fouls in the build up

The only time there's a mistaken identity our player that's incorrectly been sent off will have already left the field of play and VAR can't get involved

Ref's can still cheat like normal around throw in's, corners and yellow cards

 

Aye, the whole footballing world is out to get us. Ffs. 

[SpruceBringsteen]

Rangers and Celtic will continue to get every decision going. It's just we now get to pay for that "privilege"

[Ribble]

46 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

 

VAR and GLT are different systems/software.

 

As I understand it, part of VAR's role in deciding whether a goal is valid will be to use the cameras to check the ball has cross the line.

 

So there will be no "hawkeye" type software and a buzzer on the ref's arm but VAR will check every stage in the move to the goal, including whether or not it crossed the line.

 

For non-live broadcast games there are only 6 camera's, 2 in the gantry at half way line, one each at the 18 yard line and 1 high behind one goal, with the last one being low behind the opposite goal so there won't be camera's looking right along the line for goal line decisions (EPL do as a minimum 1 halfway line, 1 on each 18 yard line and 1 on each goal line)

[Ribble]

36 minutes ago, Thunder and Lightning said:

 

Aye, the whole footballing world is out to get us. Ffs. 

 

Nope not the whole footballing world, just the inherently biased referee's from the west of scotland referee's associations that make up 99% of grade 1 officials.

 

Lets give it a few weeks and see how many of my scenarios happen or not?

[Dazo]

1 hour ago, dougal said:

To me it looked like they got the final decision wrong. Was never a penalty.  Just goes to show that there will still be incidents where people disagree. 

Yep I did also more so because they couldn’t agree it was a penalty. On that basis how they **** can you give it or not ask the ref to look. 

[Saint Jambo]

1 hour ago, Ribble said:

Another thing to be aware of is that if a Pen is missed (either wide, high or off the woodwork) then there should be no VAR check on whether or not the keeper is off his line as he's not had a material impact 

 

Which to my mind is ridiculous if that is the case. A bit like the idea that a striker can't be interfering in play just because he didn't touch the ball.

 

If a striker comes through 1-on-1 with the keeper, the keeper will come off his line to narrow the angle, often resulting in the striker putting the ball wide. The same applies to a penalty. If the keeper moves early off his line towards the ball he forces the striker to try to put it closer to the post, increasing the possibility he puts it wide. The keeper has materially impacted in play.

[BelgeJambo]

How do we pull the plug on this if we score a dodgy winner tomorrow?

[Rampant]

33 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Yep I did also more so because they couldn’t agree it was a penalty. On that basis how they **** can you give it or not ask the ref to look. 

In this scenario, yours (and others) response seems to be that where VAR isn't sure if a decision is correct or not, we should be overruling the on-field decision.  That to me is where the waters get really murky.  VAR says "I don't know" leading to "referee is wrong".  I don't get that.  I don't think the rule is to give the benefit of doubt to the attacker or defender, either way. The rule is whether it's a foul or not and that rule is enforced by the referee.

 

This should be simple enough to me - VAR says "I don't know", so no further action is taken and the on field decision stands.  If people want to dispute it's a penalty in the aftermath, fair enough.  That's what would happen now anyway, but it avoids a prolonged stop in play whilst we replay an action for nth time to try and understand if something is clearly and obviously wrong. 

 

If 3 people can't make up their mind after looking at a few angles, it's not a clear and obvious error and the on-field decision should stand.  I don't think the point of the system when designed was to start overturning decisions because we're not sure. It was never about taking decisions away from the referee, quite the opposite, it was to prevent poor, game changing mistakes being made.  In the case of the penalty decision in this doc, I don't see how we can conclude a poor decision, an obvious mistake, has been made?  Whether or not you disagree with the decision.

[leith_dude]

Not looking forward to this coming in at all.

 

We will still be left with contentious decisions and the fact a player could still be sent off when the referee has incorrectly booked the player twice makes the whole idea a farce in my eyes. 

 

Just another way for teams to be shafted by incompetent officials. 

 

And the incompetent officials we do have are now basically getting overtime for their services. 

 

Boo!

[jock _turd]

So is it tonight that Hibs become the first team in Scotland to have VAR ? If it is I hope they lose out on a last minute winner/equaliser because of it 🤣

[milky_26]

Just now, jock _turd said:

So is it tonight that Hibs become the first team in Scotland to have VAR ? If it is I hope they lose out on a last minute winner/equaliser because of it 🤣

i would prefer a last minute penalty winner for st j given by VAR

[jock _turd]

40 minutes ago, Rampant said:

In this scenario, yours (and others) response seems to be that where VAR isn't sure if a decision is correct or not, we should be overruling the on-field decision.  That to me is where the waters get really murky.  VAR says "I don't know" leading to "referee is wrong".  I don't get that.  I don't think the rule is to give the benefit of doubt to the attacker or defender, either way. The rule is whether it's a foul or not and that rule is enforced by the referee.

 

This should be simple enough to me - VAR says "I don't know", so no further action is taken and the on field decision stands.  If people want to dispute it's a penalty in the aftermath, fair enough.  That's what would happen now anyway, but it avoids a prolonged stop in play whilst we replay an action for nth time to try and understand if something is clearly and obviously wrong. 

 

If 3 people can't make up their mind after looking at a few angles, it's not a clear and obvious error and the on-field decision should stand.  I don't think the point of the system when designed was to start overturning decisions because we're not sure. It was never about taking decisions away from the referee, quite the opposite, it was to prevent poor, game changing mistakes being made.  In the case of the penalty decision in this doc, I don't see how we can conclude a poor decision, an obvious mistake, has been made?  Whether or not you disagree with the decision.

 

I thought it was the referee that decided whether or not he had made a mistake? For example VAR says that it thinks it was a hand ball/ foul  or whatever and brings it to the attention of the ref who is then obliged to decide whether or not he wants to agree with the VAR team?

[Dazo]

51 minutes ago, Rampant said:

In this scenario, yours (and others) response seems to be that where VAR isn't sure if a decision is correct or not, we should be overruling the on-field decision.  That to me is where the waters get really murky.  VAR says "I don't know" leading to "referee is wrong".  I don't get that.  I don't think the rule is to give the benefit of doubt to the attacker or defender, either way. The rule is whether it's a foul or not and that rule is enforced by the referee.

 

This should be simple enough to me - VAR says "I don't know", so no further action is taken and the on field decision stands.  If people want to dispute it's a penalty in the aftermath, fair enough.  That's what would happen now anyway, but it avoids a prolonged stop in play whilst we replay an action for nth time to try and understand if something is clearly and obviously wrong. 

 

If 3 people can't make up their mind after looking at a few angles, it's not a clear and obvious error and the on-field decision should stand.  I don't think the point of the system when designed was to start overturning decisions because we're not sure. It was never about taking decisions away from the referee, quite the opposite, it was to prevent poor, game changing mistakes being made.  In the case of the penalty decision in this doc, I don't see how we can conclude a poor decision, an obvious mistake, has been made?  Whether or not you disagree with the decision.

Rather than going round in circles as we’ve discussed it before and don’t disagree with what you. What I am saying is the I don’t agree with the usage of var for clear & obvious errors. I think for penalties if var looks at it and isn’t convinced either way then the ref should look at it. If he isn’t sure then no pen.  

[Thunder and Lightning]

2 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

Nope not the whole footballing world, just the inherently biased referee's from the west of scotland referee's associations that make up 99% of grade 1 officials.

 

Lets give it a few weeks and see how many of my scenarios happen or not?

Whatever you like. U will see any decision not given to us as proof. You have already made up your mind. 

[john thomas]

6 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

Don't forget Porto (media's darling of the moment)

Lee Johnson did say it would affect how teams were coached

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

It's a cast-iron certainty that if we somehow manage to go a goal up tomorrow, VAR will scroll back 2 or 3 minutes of footage to find a reason to rule it out.

 

I'll see how it goes but I can honestly see this being the end for me and football. If you can't celebrate a goal at the time it's scored, then what's the point?

[Uncle Buck]

Boyle already been booked for diving. Is he too thick to realise he’ll get caught out from now on?

 

Cheat.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

5 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

Boyle already been booked for diving. Is he too thick to realise he’ll get caught out from now on?

 

Cheat.

Another first.

 

[Tommy Brown]

[hectornicol]

VAR worked perfectly tonight!

[sadj]

3 hours ago, jock _turd said:

So is it tonight that Hibs become the first team in Scotland to have VAR ? If it is I hope they lose out on a last minute winner/equaliser because of it 🤣

Job done there

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Uncle Buck said:

Boyle already been booked for diving. Is he too thick to realise he’ll get caught out from now on?

 

Cheat.

Him and Porty are fecked now - their whole game is based on cheating!

[Tom Hardy’s Dug]

6 hours ago, Ribble said:

 

For non-live broadcast games there are only 6 camera's, 2 in the gantry at half way line, one each at the 18 yard line and 1 high behind one goal, with the last one being low behind the opposite goal so there won't be camera's looking right along the line for goal line decisions (EPL do as a minimum 1 halfway line, 1 on each 18 yard line and 1 on each goal line)

Cameras don’t need to be on the line for a check re ball over line.

[Mikey1874]

That's a great example tonight of VAR working very well with the late offside potential  penalty decision.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Mikey1874

[Rampant]

4 hours ago, jock _turd said:

 

I thought it was the referee that decided whether or not he had made a mistake? For example VAR says that it thinks it was a hand ball/ foul  or whatever and brings it to the attention of the ref who is then obliged to decide whether or not he wants to agree with the VAR team?

Yeah I think you're right. The final decision ultimately sits with the ref. Perhaps they could ask to see if they're really unsure, but I think the idea is that VAR brings things to the attention of the ref.  The issue I have is it seems things are brought to the attention to the referee when there's a bit of uncertainty either way, which to me goes against the principle of VAR, to prevent clear and obvious errors.

 

The way we saw it in the film I think is standard, whereby VAR review each major event, and can hit a red button to advise the ref to go to a screen, or otherwise speak through the earpiece.

 

I would hope the game is refereed as if VAR isn't there, but VAR can step in to assist the ref when necessary.  Using it in this way would seem the most efficient, whilst solving the biggest problem people have with VAR, being that it disrupts the flow and takes too long.

[Australis]

Caught out the diving cheats tonight.

Not all bad.

 

[Footballfirst]

9 minutes ago, Rampant said:

Yeah I think you're right. The final decision ultimately sits with the ref. Perhaps they could ask to see if they're really unsure, but I think the idea is that VAR brings things to the attention of the ref.  The issue I have is it seems things are brought to the attention to the referee when there's a bit of uncertainty either way, which to me goes against the principle of VAR, to prevent clear and obvious errors.

The VAR will make decisions of fact without the ref's confirmation, i.e. offside/onside goals and inside/outside the box for penalty decisions.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Footballfirst