Jimmy Savile: A British Horror Story.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

in this world of conspiracy theories is there any dark corner of the internet claiming he’s innocent ?
 

esther rantzen used to say he was a great guy - paid great tribute to him after his death - what’s she got to cover up ? founder of childline or something great like that ?
 

 

[kevin_hmfc]

Really good show. A warning from history and it should not be censored or deemed inappropriate for TV.

[Morgan]

Sadly, there are more Jimmy Saviles out there than we will ever learn about.  

[Lone Striker]

I think we're all failing to understand just how difficult it would have been in the 70s and 80s for teenage girls to be taken seriously if they had complained to the BBC or even to the police about Savile's groping etc.   Was there any actual evidence of his sex assaults on young girls that could have been viewed ?   It would likely have come down to whether enough girls were willing to come forward so that sheer numbers might have swayed a jury to convict him.

 

 Like it or not, Savile's persona, charity work, access to pop stars & the PM & Royals made him a powerful character.

 

Its a bit  like Weinstein in recent years.  Loads of women in the film industry knew about him.  Many had been raped by him.  But none wanted to have their careers ruined so they kept quiet, until eventually a few plucked up the courage and then dozens more came forward too. These were grown women, but even they were  reluctant to rock  the boat.   Imagine how much more frightening it would have been for 16 year-old girls to come forward about Savile.

 

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

19 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

I think we're all failing to understand just how difficult it would have been in the 70s and 80s for teenage girls to be taken seriously if they had complained to the BBC or even to the police about Savile's groping etc.   Was there any actual evidence of his sex assaults on young girls that could have been viewed ?   It would likely have come down to whether enough girls were willing to come forward so that sheer numbers might have swayed a jury to convict him.

 

 Like it or not, Savile's persona, charity work, access to pop stars & the PM & Royals made him a powerful character.

 

Its a bit  like Weinstein in recent years.  Loads of women in the film industry knew about him.  Many had been raped by him.  But none wanted to have their careers ruined so they kept quiet, until eventually a few plucked up the courage and then dozens more came forward too. These were grown women, but even they were  reluctant to rock  the boat.   Imagine how much more frightening it would have been for 16 year-old girls to come forward about Savile.

 

 

 

You just need to see the way that the women murdered by Sutcliffe were spoken of by some of the police in Yorkshire, and the treatment of any survivors during the investigation. Women coming forward back then had to break through the barrier of male presumption and arrogance.

It's little wonder Saville got away with it and it took so long for Sutcliffe to be caught, by an alert bobby on the beat rather than those incompetent detectives.

[Mikey1874]

Reviews praise Coogan but ask what the point was. 

[henrysmithsgloves]

33 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Reviews praise Coogan but ask what the point was. 

 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, SectionDJambo said:

You just need to see the way that the women murdered by Sutcliffe were spoken of by some of the police in Yorkshire, and the treatment of any survivors during the investigation. Women coming forward back then had to break through the barrier of male presumption and arrogance.

It's little wonder Saville got away with it and it took so long for Sutcliffe to be caught, by an alert bobby on the beat rather than those incompetent detectives.

Yes, you're right.  And its still continuing today -  eg. the  Met Police have rapists & sex predators working as serving officers yet nobody felt like whistle-blowing  about Couzens or Carrick despite the locker-room "lads talk".    Another one in the news last week - Cliff Mitchell, charged with  5 rapes plus kidnap.

 

I see the Bible John case is being re-opened after a previous investigation suggested that the perpetrator may have been related to a senior Police officer who steered their inquiries away from the likely perpetrator.

 

[Cade]

Not to mention the MPs nonce dossier that Teresa May "lost" when she was Home Secretary.

 

 

[Lone Striker]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Reviews praise Coogan but ask what the point was. 

Aye - its a tough balance to justify, and how to make a watchable drama when the full extent of Savile's sexual crimes will probably never be known.        Savile was such a weirdo on TV, and  I suspect the majority of viewers just want to erase  him from their memory.       

 

Its noticeable that the media reaction to Schofield when his denials fell apart was swift and maybe even a bit OTT considering there was no evidence of a crime, when you compare it to the lack of action about Savile despite rumours within the media & some celebs.

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

 Coogan is an outstanding actor so I’m not surprised he’s excellent as JS . The programme really portrays well how he had a certain charisma which aided him to commit his odious crimes . Gemma Jones was excellent as his mother . I met her a few years ago at a film premiere and she was very nice 

[Guest]

A tough watch, but will almost certainly win a BAFTA or two

[frankblack]

I've got to admit I felt deeply uncomfortable watching this.  Steve Coogan did a remarkable job.

 

Its the first time I've seen actual footage of Saville on Top of the Pops in decades, mind...

[Sooks]

The Reckoning was different for a few reasons . A dramatisation allows a redressing of the balance when it comes to the visual side of the story . Savile was in the entertainment business for 60 years and for the majority of that he was in front of a camera . All the docus about him previously have used the endless reams of genuine video footage of the man playing a character behind a mask . There are only fleeting moments amongst the verbal “ tricky “ diarrhoea where the mask slipped and he was there to be seen for what he really was . With the benefit of dramatisation built on eye witness accounts when the cameras and mics were not running , you can concentrate the majority of the on screen footage on what he was really like …….. behind the mask

 

I thought it was an excellent dramatisation and I like that it also used a psychological element to the acting of his crimes being committed . I have no interest in seeing a dramatisation of a child being abused . Concentrate on the victims and their emotions and fears rather than the gratification that this evil piece of shit garnered for himself

 

Just like the docus though . I am left feeling angry and frustrated that he was never brought to justice in life . I tried to take some comfort in him refusing to confess to a witness like a good Catholic and the ramifications that would have to him entering heaven , but as an atheist I gained no such satisfaction . He got away with it and the inscription on his tombstone says it all

 

Hopefully lessons have been learnt from this and all future evil *******s operating in the public glare are brought to justice , but I firmly believe they are protected by the establishment in life 

 

I would have loved to have had a quiet half an hour alone with the creature and let him experience the sort of pain and suffering he inflicted on those weaker than him 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Sooks

[Sooks]

Coogan was excellent 

[Lone Striker]

7 hours ago, Sooks said:

The Reckoning was different for a few reasons . A dramatisation allows a redressing of the balance when it comes to the visual side of the story . Savile was in the entertainment business for 60 years and for the majority of that he was in front of a camera . All the docus about him previously have used the endless reams of genuine video footage of the man playing a character behind a mask . There are only fleeting moments amongst the verbal “ tricky “ diarrhoea where the mask slipped and he was there to be seen for what he really was . With the benefit of dramatisation built on eye witness accounts when the cameras and mics were not running , you can concentrate the majority of the on screen footage on what he was really like …….. behind the mask

 

I thought it was an excellent dramatisation and I like that it also used a psychological element to the acting of his crimes being committed . I have no interest in seeing a dramatisation of a child being abused . Concentrate on the victims and their emotions and fears rather than the gratification that this evil piece of shit garnered for himself

 

Just like the docus though . I am left feeling angry and frustrated that he was never brought to justice in life . I tried to take some comfort in him refusing to confess to a witness like a good Catholic and the ramifications that would have to him entering heaven , but as an atheist I gained no such satisfaction . He got away with it and the inscription on his tombstone says it all

 

Hopefully lessons have been learnt from this and all future evil *******s operating in the public glare are brought to justice , but I firmly believe they are protected by the establishment in life 

 

I would have loved to have had a quiet half an hour alone with the creature and let him experience the sort of pain and suffering he inflicted on those weaker than him 

 

 

Excellent post.  I watched all 4 episodes today.    Very harrowing at times.  I didn't know anything of his early days as a  club DJ prior to being on Radio Luxemburg and then Radio 1 -  but he was obviously "at it" even back then.  His buddy  Ray Teret got 25 years in jail for his role in the abuse.

 

The dramatic on-off meetings with Dan Davies (the journalist) over several years made the whole story quite agonising - he came so close to getting admissions or reasons out of Savile, but never quite enough to publish anything with impunity.   

 

I felt the production team and writers did a good job by interspersing the drama with  comments from 4 of his actual victims.  It reminded the viewer that this actually happened and wasn't  made up.   

 

The film started with a real bang, showing Savile's actual funeral.  Huge attendance, military pall-bearers , glowing eulogy from the Archbishop.    

 

The incident when he picked up the 2 girls smoking outside the school was horrific .... as was the reaction of the police (via  a  LETTER  ffs) to the girl who reported him years later.   

 

In hindsight, I think this was indeed a film that had to be made. Savile got away scot-free, but this film showed the life-long harm he did to a few of his (alleged ) many victims.    

 

Coogan had his voice, mannerisms and walk spot on.

[Sooks]

37 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Excellent post.  I watched all 4 episodes today.    Very harrowing at times.  I didn't know anything of his early days as a  club DJ prior to being on Radio Luxemburg and then Radio 1 -  but he was obviously "at it" even back then.  His buddy  Ray Teret got 25 years in jail for his role in the abuse.

 

The dramatic on-off meetings with Dan Davies (the journalist) over several years made the whole story quite agonising - he came so close to getting admissions or reasons out of Savile, but never quite enough to publish anything with impunity.   

 

I felt the production team and writers did a good job by interspersing the drama with  comments from 4 of his actual victims.  It reminded the viewer that this actually happened and wasn't  made up.   

 

The film started with a real bang, showing Savile's actual funeral.  Huge attendance, military pall-bearers , glowing eulogy from the Archbishop.    

 

The incident when he picked up the 2 girls smoking outside the school was horrific .... as was the reaction of the police (via  a  LETTER  ffs) to the girl who reported him years later.   

 

In hindsight, I think this was indeed a film that had to be made. Savile got away scot-free, but this film showed the life-long harm he did to a few of his (alleged ) many victims.    

 

Coogan had his voice, mannerisms and walk spot on.

Very good post . I agree completely 

[Harry Potter]

On 12/10/2023 at 09:21, frankblack said:

I've got to admit I felt deeply uncomfortable watching this.  Steve Coogan did a remarkable job.

 

Its the first time I've seen actual footage of Saville on Top of the Pops in decades, mind...

Cant bring myself to watch it Frank, some stuff i just cant stomach.

[Lone Striker]

It wasn't shown in the film, but there's footage of him on ToTP behind a bunch of teenagers (mainly girls) talking into the camera, microphone in one hand. All of a sudden, one of the girls lurches forward in shock - you can guess what  Savile  was doing with his other hand.

[Spellczech]

On 10/10/2023 at 21:57, MoncurMacdonaldMercer said:

in this world of conspiracy theories is there any dark corner of the internet claiming he’s innocent ?
 

esther rantzen used to say he was a great guy - paid great tribute to him after his death - what’s she got to cover up ? founder of childline or something great like that ?
 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/video/2012/oct/15/esther-rantzen-jimmy-savile-video

 

She simply says the rumour was grapevine and from a junior researcher so "not fact"...She also tries to distance herself, saying she worked in another part of the BBC. Doesn't explain her eulogising though...

 

Abusers are truly monsters though - the lengths such people will go to to get into positions to do what they do...Ingratiating themselves with parents etc

 

I don't have kids so it is not really an area that I know much about... I came from a home where my father had no particular interest in his own kids let alone anyone else's, so for me the start point would always be to be wary of any man who is interested in kids other than his own! Which is a pretty low base admittedly, but then I have no kids in my life at all and no wish to have involvement with them. I'd rather deal with animals instead, any day of the week!

[Spellczech]

On 11/10/2023 at 20:02, Lone Striker said:

Aye - its a tough balance to justify, and how to make a watchable drama when the full extent of Savile's sexual crimes will probably never be known.        Savile was such a weirdo on TV, and  I suspect the majority of viewers just want to erase  him from their memory.       

 

Its noticeable that the media reaction to Schofield when his denials fell apart was swift and maybe even a bit OTT considering there was no evidence of a crime, when you compare it to the lack of action about Savile despite rumours within the media & some celebs.

 

 

I think the "over-reaction" with Schofield was directly linked to the heads in the sand re Saville. Schofield's problem was his dishonesty, and I think he knows that too - bosses clearly felt that if he lied to them, then there could be more lies to unfold...

Edited October 14, 2023 by Spellczech

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

33 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/video/2012/oct/15/esther-rantzen-jimmy-savile-video

 

She simply says the rumour was grapevine and from a junior researcher so "not fact"...She also tries to distance herself, saying she worked in another part of the BBC. Doesn't explain her eulogising though...

 

Abusers are truly monsters though - the lengths such people will go to to get into positions to do what they do...Ingratiating themselves with parents etc

 

I don't have kids so it is not really an area that I know much about... I came from a home where my father had no particular interest in his own kids let alone anyone else's, so for me the start point would always be to be wary of any man who is interested in kids other than his own! Which is a pretty low base admittedly, but then I have no kids in my life at all and no wish to have involvement with them. I'd rather deal with animals instead, any day of the week!

I wish I could find the video of her paying tribute to him after his death as you say the big contradiction 

 

she was coming out with lines like the great person you see on the screen is exactly the same great person you see off the screen and every other compliment you can imagine - all through tear-filled (almost) doe eyes

 

now she hardly knew this john savile guy or whatever his name was

 

🙈

 

 

 

[Spellczech]

3 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

It wasn't shown in the film, but there's footage of him on ToTP behind a bunch of teenagers (mainly girls) talking into the camera, microphone in one hand. All of a sudden, one of the girls lurches forward in shock - you can guess what  Savile  was doing with his other hand.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xunhgp

 

Taking a risk with my search history but this one...The 70s must've been a great time to be a perv!🫢

[Sooks]

3 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xunhgp

 

Taking a risk with my search history but this one...The 70s must've been a great time to be a perv!🫢

Imagine my shock to see George Galloway all over him in the next video 

[Korky]

On 11/10/2023 at 21:41, Black Swan said:

A tough watch, but will almost certainly win a BAFTA or two

Don’t they only give these to Helen Mirren?

[JudyJudyJudy]

I think Coogan might win the Bafta and Gemma Jones best supporting actress.

[1971fozzy]

It boils my piss that he got that funeral.  I hope he’s in the depths of hell.

Quite how those who covered it all up were never jailed is another crime 

[I P Knightley]

I watched episode one last night. Jumping back and forth between the 'present' time of the interview and the historic time of the abuse was an interesting approach: sort of now/then/now/then...

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

23 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

I watched episode one last night. Jumping back and forth between the 'present' time of the interview and the historic time of the abuse was an interesting approach: sort of now/then/now/then...

 

 

 

[henrysmithsgloves]

He was well known in police circles,even in Edinburgh in the 1980s😳 To paraphrase a retired copper " he was untouchable,and he knew it"🤬🤬 Even were rumours he and Edward heath and others went sailing over to the channel Islands to get kids, once they had their way , dumped them overboard 🤬😳

[Fitzroy Pointon]

3 minutes ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

He was well known in police circles,even in Edinburgh in the 1980s😳 To paraphrase a retired copper " he was untouchable,and he knew it"🤬🤬 Even were rumours he and Edward heath and others went sailing over to the channel Islands to get kids, once they had their way , dumped them overboard 🤬😳

 

Ted the Beast and his plastic hand. 

[I P Knightley]

42 minutes ago, Салатные палочки said:

 

Ted the Beast and his plastic hand. 

I remember as a kid hearing whispers about him that I was perhaps too young and naive to understand at the time. Even as a teenager, if I thought back, I'd have assumed it was just that he was gay and, of course, in the early 1970s, gays hadn't been properly invented so you couldn't possibly be an MP and be one. Except for Jeremy Thorpe, but there's no way there could ever have been two.

 

Of course, now, with all the stories of corruption and sleaze going to the top of 'society', it's far easier to understand that Heath could well have been a nonce.

 

But the 'plastic hand'? You've got me there!

[Fitzroy Pointon]

4 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

I remember as a kid hearing whispers about him that I was perhaps too young and naive to understand at the time. Even as a teenager, if I thought back, I'd have assumed it was just that he was gay and, of course, in the early 1970s, gays hadn't been properly invented so you couldn't possibly be an MP and be one. Except for Jeremy Thorpe, but there's no way there could ever have been two.

 

Of course, now, with all the stories of corruption and sleaze going to the top of 'society', it's far easier to understand that Heath could well have been a nonce.

 

But the 'plastic hand'? You've got me there!

 

Allegedly he was so ashamed of himself and his abuse of kids that he used a fake hand to touch them with rather than use his own. 

[I P Knightley]

5 minutes ago, Салатные палочки said:

 

Allegedly he was so ashamed of himself and his abuse of kids that he used a fake hand to touch them with rather than use his own. 

I'm prepared to accept that as fact. Weird fat fokker.

[Sooks]

1 hour ago, henrysmithsgloves said:

He was well known in police circles,even in Edinburgh in the 1980s😳 To paraphrase a retired copper " he was untouchable,and he knew it"🤬🤬 Even were rumours he and Edward heath and others went sailing over to the channel Islands to get kids, once they had their way , dumped them overboard 🤬😳

The boat had a nickname like Morning Terror or Horror , I think 

 

The powers that be did a great job of covering up Heaths evil predilections 

[been here before]

Tried watching it but, maybe its just me here, it's Alan Partridge in a funny wig.

 

Makes it difficult to take too seriously. 

[Lone Striker]

46 minutes ago, Sooks said:

The boat had a nickname like Morning Terror or Horror , I think 

 

The powers that be did a great job of covering up Heaths evil predilections 

Is there any actual evidence about Heath ?  Or is it all rumour ?   The whole area of child abuse by powerful people (military top-brass & politicians)  has been seriously muddied after the Carl Beech claims - which were thrown out by a jury 4 years ago, and Beech was convicted himself of child abuse.     He had named Heath, Brittan, Proctor etc as part of a VIP child abuse ring.  The claims were supported by Tom Watson in Parliament, who had to apologise to Proctor and Brittan's widow.

 

If you're suggesting that Heath  actually was a child molester, then you'd also have to question the police investigation into Beech's claims (which yielded no other victims, afaik)..... and the evidence they convicted Beech on.   In other words, a police conspiracy ?

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Is there any actual evidence about Heath ?  Or is it all rumour ?   The whole area of child abuse by powerful people (military top-brass & politicians)  has been seriously muddied after the Carl Beech claims - which were thrown out by a jury 4 years ago, and Beech was convicted himself of child abuse.     He had named Heath, Brittan, Proctor etc as part of a VIP child abuse ring.  The claims were supported by Tom Watson in Parliament, who had to apologise to Proctor and Brittan's widow.

 

If you're suggesting that Heath  actually was a child molester, then you'd also have to question the police investigation into Beech's claims (which yielded no other victims, afaik)..... and the evidence they convicted Beech on.   In other words, a police conspiracy ?

You just need to look at the role the police played in protecting Savile from justice . He was in the club 

[Sooks]

Regarding Heath - the Chief Constable of Wiltshire police was convinced that Heath was a paedophile due to the dovetailing and similarities of the accusations and accounts of the witnesses . There was a brothel owner who was going to testify that she procured underage boys for him , but the trial fell apart because the witnesses decided not to testify . It is widely believed that Wiltshire police sabotaged the trial , a view shared by the Chief Constable 

[Lone Striker]

26 minutes ago, been here before said:

Tried watching it but, maybe its just me here, it's Alan Partridge in a funny wig.

 

Makes it difficult to take too seriously. 

Steve Coogan's impersonation of him was spot-on.  A million miles away from Alan Partridge.   He's proved in several films just how good an actor he is.

 

 

[been here before]

7 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Steve Coogan's impersonation of him was spot-on.  A million miles away from Alan Partridge.   He's proved in several films just how good an actor he is.

 

 

 

See the bit where I said "maybe its just me"?

[Lone Striker]

2 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

See the bit where I said "maybe its just me"?

I did, but didn't want you to take a mention of it  the wrong way.  😉 

[Dawnrazor]

3 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

See the bit where I said "maybe its just me"?

Not just you, I don't rate him as an actor, I liked some of his comedy characters but a straight actor, not for me.

[been here before]

2 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

I did, but didn't want you to take a mention of it  the wrong way.  😉 

 

Not likely to happen.

 

Partridge was such a great creation over the 2 series, the numerous podcasts, Mid Morning Matters, This Time and all the rest of it  i just cant take Coogan seriously in anything alse he's ever done. All I can see is Alan Partridge.

[Lone Striker]

15 minutes ago, Sooks said:

Regarding Heath - the Chief Constable of Wiltshire police was convinced that Heath was a paedophile due to the dovetailing and similarities of the accusations and accounts of the witnesses . There was a brothel owner who was going to testify that she procured underage boys for him , but the trial fell apart because the witnesses decided not to testify . It is widely believed that Wiltshire police sabotaged the trial , a view shared by the Chief Constable 

In that case, you'd also have to question the circumstances which resulted in the CC's  contract not being renewed at Wiltshire Police.  Again, another example of  police conspiracy ? 

 

The bottom line for investigating the validity of abuse claims against a now deceased person really has to involve survivors coming forward with dates & details which the police could somehow check for corroboration.  Did any come forward for the police to interview & investigate ?

 

 

[Sooks]

1 minute ago, Lone Striker said:

In that case, you'd also have to question the circumstances which resulted in the CC's  contract not being renewed at Wiltshire Police.  Again, another example of  police conspiracy ? 

 

The bottom line for investigating the validity of abuse claims against a now deceased person really has to involve survivors coming forward with dates & details which the police could somehow check for corroboration.  Did any come forward for the police to interview & investigate ?

 

 

They did and despite being entirely separate from each other and not in any way related or associated with each other , their claims were very similar and names and places and circumstances added up . They just suddenly decided not to testify

[henrysmithsgloves]

1 hour ago, Sooks said:

The boat had a nickname like Morning Terror or Horror , I think 

 

The powers that be did a great job of covering up Heaths evil predilections 

Morning glory iirc. I mentioned "others" due to fact some are still living 😳 

[Lone Striker]

1 minute ago, Sooks said:

They did and despite being entirely separate from each other and not in any way related or associated with each other , their claims were very similar and names and places and circumstances added up . They just suddenly decided not to testify

Hmmm..... it does arouse suspicions.  Establishment cover-up  ?      As I said above though, the Carl Beech case shows that some folk making allegations to the police about being a victim just make stuff up for some weird reason - which then casts doubt on future allegations.     

 

Its a murky world for honest police officers to try to unravel.

 

 

[henrysmithsgloves]

3 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

 

 

Its a murky world for honest police officers to try to unravel.

 

 

No chance if they want to keep their career and pension ..I will leave it at that

Edited October 14, 2023 by henrysmithsgloves

[The Mighty Thor]

17 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Hmmm..... it does arouse suspicions.  Establishment cover-up  ?      As I said above though, the Carl Beech case shows that some folk making allegations to the police about being a victim just make stuff up for some weird reason - which then casts doubt on future allegations.     

 

Its a murky world for honest police officers to try to unravel.

 

 

Difficult one to pursue when Saville has the ear of Thatcher and is good mates with the current King.

 

It stinks.