'Plan Cruyff'

[Des Lynam]

Interesting article. The acceptance within Scottish football for years to never improve the style of play or take risks has always baffled me. This isn’t a let’s bash the football in this country thread as  I understand it’s not that easy and no doubt changes are being implemented in the youth groups to be more comfortable on the ball and play more attacking football. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59954007

Edited January 25, 2022 by Des Lynam

[Craig_]

The sad thing is that Scottish football is a dinosaur, run and played by halfwits who'll never accept change. Any young, skilful player is going to get the living shit kicked out of them before they even make the first team. And any managers with radical ideas had better prepare themselves for getting slaughtered in the media by the 'establishment'.

 

Reading Robbo's book at the moment and was shocked to learn that basic fitness training wasn't even a thing in Scottish football when Doddie (and Pilmar Smith) started insisting on it!

 

Sad state of affairs. I'm hoping Robbie's more gradual approach will pay dividends over time, he certainly appears to be moving in the direction of fast, flowing attacking football. Long may it continue.

[hmfc_liam06]

13 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I'm not sure whether the pressures in Dutch football are lower, but there's no way that Hearts fans would have been happy with a 3 year plan for promotion.  Although Hibs fans seemingly accepted such a plan.

 

To be honest I don't think there's a comparison with Hearts and Volendam.

 

Now if Dunfermline had proposed this to their fans, then absolutely they'd get behind it.

[AlimOzturk]

I like what Robbie and Savage are doing. Savage is clearly very adept at spotting talent and Neilson is very good at selling the club. Have read as well that if it wasn’t for Neilson Halkett/Kingsley may not have put pen to paper. Neilson was the one who convinced them their futures lie here. 
 

I am not convinced the academy is the route to success for us. Whilst we have to continue and develop our own talent, I think finding talent like Devlin/Atkinson/Beni is going to be more fruitful going forward. These guys have the potential to earn us many millions. 

[briever]

28 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

The sad thing is that Scottish football is a dinosaur, run and played by halfwits who'll never accept change. Any young, skilful player is going to get the living shit kicked out of them before they even make the first team. And any managers with radical ideas had better prepare themselves for getting slaughtered in the media by the 'establishment'.

 

Reading Robbo's book at the moment and was shocked to learn that basic fitness training wasn't even a thing in Scottish football when Doddie (and Pilmar Smith) started insisting on it!

 

Sad state of affairs. I'm hoping Robbie's more gradual approach will pay dividends over time, he certainly appears to be moving in the direction of fast, flowing attacking football. Long may it continue.

 

I think you overstate the aggressive nature of youth football in Scotland - there was an enormous change around about 15yrs ago where winning wasn't the be all to end all (in my experience this pissed the kids off more) - and on field aggressiveness was managed much better.  There does tend to be focus on selecting big athletes, but to be honest most Euro countries are like that.

 

What we need to ensure is we retain a route for skilful kids who are small until their mid teens but get overlooked - football is an early stage development sport, you can tell very early on whether a player has the skills and talent (the mental aspect is later) - but that shouldn't mean we toss aside a large chunk of the player population based on size.

 

The two things that are the biggest influence is the number and higher quality of youth coaches and the facilities.  3/4G pitches are helping as the kids aren't up to their knees in mud for 5 months of the year.  But more of indoor facilities are needed.  Kids develop good close contact skills when it's not -3 and pissing with rain.

Edited January 25, 2022 by briever

[jamboinglasgow]

26 minutes ago, hmfc_liam06 said:

 

To be honest I don't think there's a comparison with Hearts and Volendam.

 

Now if Dunfermline had proposed this to their fans, then absolutely they'd get behind it.

 

I agree with you there, I think there is scope for a team that is in the Dunfermline size of club (so like Raith Rovers, Falkirk, Partick Thistle etc) who is usually in the Championship but can reach the Premiership, to fully embrace a completely different style of play and style of running the club. To be unique, like this article play attacking football. Stand out a bit from the crowd. Fans would get behind that.

[Bazzas right boot]

7 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

I like what Robbie and Savage are doing. Savage is clearly very adept at spotting talent and Neilson is very good at selling the club. Have read as well that if it wasn’t for Neilson Halkett/Kingsley may not have put pen to paper. Neilson was the one who convinced them their futures lie here. 
 

I am not convinced the academy is the route to success for us. Whilst we have to continue and develop our own talent, I think finding talent like Devlin/Atkinson/Beni is going to be more fruitful going forward. These guys have the potential to earn us many millions. 

 

 

These guys have the potential to make us a good team, challenge for trophies and be consistent in the league. 

 

That is what is important. 

[Bazzas right boot]

6 minutes ago, briever said:

 

I think you overstate the aggressive nature of youth football in Scotland - there was an enormous change around about 15yrs ago where winning wasn't the be all to end all (in my experience this pissed the kids off more) - and on field aggressiveness was managed much better.  There does tend to be focus on selecting big athletes, but to be honest most Euro countries are like that.

 

What we need to ensure is we retain a route for skilful kids who are small until their mid teens but get overlooked - football is an early stage development sport, you can tell very early on whether a player has the skills and talent (the mental aspect is later) - but that shouldn't mean we toss aside a large chunk of the player population based on size.

 

The two things that are the biggest influence is the number and higher quality of youth coaches and the facilities.  3/4G pitches are helping as the kids aren't up to their knees in mud for 5 months of the year.  But more of indoor facilities are needed.  Kids develop good close contact skills when it's not -3 and pissing with rain.

 

Good Post. 

[hmfc_liam06]

1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I agree with you there, I think there is scope for a team that is in the Dunfermline size of club (so like Raith Rovers, Falkirk, Partick Thistle etc) who is usually in the Championship but can reach the Premiership, to fully embrace a completely different style of play and style of running the club. To be unique, like this article play attacking football. Stand out a bit from the crowd. Fans would get behind that.

 

Totally.

 

All of those clubs fans would get right behind a clear vision. Especially Dunfermline.

[Craig_]

24 minutes ago, briever said:

 

I think you overstate the aggressive nature of youth football in Scotland - there was an enormous change around about 15yrs ago where winning wasn't the be all to end all (in my experience this pissed the kids off more) - and on field aggressiveness was managed much better.  There does tend to be focus on selecting big athletes, but to be honest most Euro countries are like that.

 

What we need to ensure is we retain a route for skilful kids who are small until their mid teens but get overlooked - football is an early stage development sport, you can tell very early on whether a player has the skills and talent (the mental aspect is later) - but that shouldn't mean we toss aside a large chunk of the player population based on size.

 

The two things that are the biggest influence is the number and higher quality of youth coaches and the facilities.  3/4G pitches are helping as the kids aren't up to their knees in mud for 5 months of the year.  But more of indoor facilities are needed.  Kids develop good close contact skills when it's not -3 and pissing with rain.

 

Thanks for posting, very interesting. Do you think there's been a similar change at lower levels as players are coming through from youth ranks?

 

As a country, we seem to have a real problem with promising 16-22yos falling by the wayside, wondering what the reasons for this are.

[buzzbomb1958]

1 hour ago, Craig_ said:

The sad thing is that Scottish football is a dinosaur, run and played by halfwits who'll never accept change. Any young, skilful player is going to get the living shit kicked out of them before they even make the first team. And any managers with radical ideas had better prepare themselves for getting slaughtered in the media by the 'establishment'.

 

Reading Robbo's book at the moment and was shocked to learn that basic fitness training wasn't even a thing in Scottish football when Doddie (and Pilmar Smith) started insisting on it!

 

Sad state of affairs. I'm hoping Robbie's more gradual approach will pay dividends over time, he certainly appears to be moving in the direction of fast, flowing attacking football. Long may it continue.

Great post

[briever]

8 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

 

Thanks for posting, very interesting. Do you think there's been a similar change at lower levels as players are coming through from youth ranks?

 

As a country, we seem to have a real problem with promising 16-22yos falling by the wayside, wondering what the reasons for this are.

 

I have no idea what happens to our players 16+

 

If you look at how our age group teams perform they are always very competitive, even more so the younger the age group.  I wonder if that's down to other countries prioritising late teens?

 

Far too many of our young talented players seem to fall off a cliff in late teens - but pro sport is as much about the mental aspect than football talent - maybe that's where they lacking.

 

Youth sports tend to lose players are fairly predictable stages - S1/2 when the delights of alternatives at high school await and 15/16 when the delights of girls and partying really take hold.

[Carl Fredrickson]

I also think that the lack of reserve/U23 league will hinder development as it is a huge leap from youth games to first team. 

 

I like the idea of B teams in the lower leagues to allow younger players game time against seasons pros. 

[boag1874]

6 minutes ago, Craig_ said:

 

Thanks for posting, very interesting. Do you think there's been a similar change at lower levels as players are coming through from youth ranks?

 

As a country, we seem to have a real problem with promising 16-22yos falling by the wayside, wondering what the reasons for this are.

I'd say it's a mix of

a) Scottish/UK drinking culture among people that age

b) Clubs not doing enough to protect their young players (mentally as well as physically)

c) Individual mentalities

 

The best thing a promising Scottish player can do for their career is get out of Scottish football sadly.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

I like what Robbie and Savage are doing. Savage is clearly very adept at spotting talent and Neilson is very good at selling the club. Have read as well that if it wasn’t for Neilson Halkett/Kingsley may not have put pen to paper. Neilson was the one who convinced them their futures lie here. 
 

I am not convinced the academy is the route to success for us. Whilst we have to continue and develop our own talent, I think finding talent like Devlin/Atkinson/Beni is going to be more fruitful going forward. These guys have the potential to earn us many millions. 

 

I know you mean this in a positive way but i want to see Devlin/Atkinson/Beni lifting trophies in maroon rather than playing in the English Championship.

 

Like any club, our players have a price but we should be looking to hold our top players unless silly money comes in that we can reinvest in a replacement of similar quality.

[briever]

22 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I know you mean this in a positive way but i want to see Devlin/Atkinson/Beni lifting trophies in maroon rather than playing in the English Championship.

 

Like any club, our players have a price but we should be looking to hold our top players unless silly money comes in that we can reinvest in a replacement of similar quality.

 

Spot on, we all started contributing to the FOH to save the club, but it also means might be shielded from constantly having to sell our best players.

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, Craig_ said:

The sad thing is that Scottish football is a dinosaur, run and played by halfwits who'll never accept change. Any young, skilful player is going to get the living shit kicked out of them before they even make the first team. And any managers with radical ideas had better prepare themselves for getting slaughtered in the media by the 'establishment'.

 

Reading Robbo's book at the moment and was shocked to learn that basic fitness training wasn't even a thing in Scottish football when Doddie (and Pilmar Smith) started insisting on it!

 

Sad state of affairs. I'm hoping Robbie's more gradual approach will pay dividends over time, he certainly appears to be moving in the direction of fast, flowing attacking football. Long may it continue.

Does he not favour sending youngsters out to get the living shit kicked out of them at lower levels in Scotland?

[Pasquale for King]

I would say the attitude that we know best and nobody needs to tell us how to play football has saw a our game slide into the poor state it’s in. 
The game is run for two clubs and now they’re getting back into the CL nothing will change. 

[Locky]

2 hours ago, sassenach said:

I'm not sure whether the pressures in Dutch football are lower, but there's no way that Hearts fans would have been happy with a 3 year plan for promotion.  Although Hibs fans seemingly accepted such a plan.

Volendam haven't been in the Eredivisie since 2009 I think, so I'm not sure there's a huge degree of expectation to get back so quickly.

[Rudy T]

It’s not so much the Scottish clubs approach to the game that holds us back, it’s the structure of the leagues and the screwed up voting system. The pressure on managers is ridiculous in our leagues because they’re too small. From 12th to 6th in the current league all those teams want to do is stay up, none of those managers can risk implementing long term strategies or developing too many youth players. We’re seeing it with Davidson a double cup winner on the brink of the sack after a run of bad results. From 6th to 3rd it’s about European football, could Robbie for example introduce a few academy players now and the fans accept it’s the future.. no chance.

 

The championship is no different either and when you get the seasons where a heavyweight gets relegated (or unfairly demoted) then that league is all about a play off and staying up.

 

The leagues need expanded so there’s a middle set of teams who don’t fear relegation but know they can’t get europe/play offs so they can relax a bit and bed in the future players and develop them. Yes there will be meaningless games but for the good of Scottish football it’s the only thing that’ll improve our game.

[Locky]

Strangely, when I read Wim Jonk's name in the article, I briefly confused him with ex-Celtic gaffer Wim Jansen, Then I go on Twitter and read that Wim Jansen has passed away.

[HeartsandonlyHearts]

1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

I would say the attitude that we know best and nobody needs to tell us how to play football has saw a our game slide into the poor state it’s in. 
The game is run for two clubs and now they’re getting back into the CL nothing will change. 

It is quite depressing. Worse is that no one writes “Pasquale for King you talk $#!te”

We all know it, every fan from every team knows it. Club owners know it. And we all just bend over season after season and take it. My love of all things Hearts is all I care about with regards to Scottish football. Living abroad helps a little, not being around OF fans on a daily basis and having to listen to them. I wish we could witness change but they’re stuck in the dark ages.

[briever]

4 hours ago, Rudy T said:

It’s not so much the Scottish clubs approach to the game that holds us back, it’s the structure of the leagues and the screwed up voting system. The pressure on managers is ridiculous in our leagues because they’re too small. From 12th to 6th in the current league all those teams want to do is stay up, none of those managers can risk implementing long term strategies or developing too many youth players. We’re seeing it with Davidson a double cup winner on the brink of the sack after a run of bad results. From 6th to 3rd it’s about European football, could Robbie for example introduce a few academy players now and the fans accept it’s the future.. no chance.

 

The championship is no different either and when you get the seasons where a heavyweight gets relegated (or unfairly demoted) then that league is all about a play off and staying up.

 

The leagues need expanded so there’s a middle set of teams who don’t fear relegation but know they can’t get europe/play offs so they can relax a bit and bed in the future players and develop them. Yes there will be meaningless games but for the good of Scottish football it’s the only thing that’ll improve our game.

 

This is spot on - our game is being ruined because Doncaster and SKY demand we have 4 bigotfest matches every season - it's infuriating.

 

The Premiership is too small - everyone who cares about Scottish fitba knows this - will anything be done about it - nope.

Edited January 25, 2022 by briever

[jambo19]

8 hours ago, boag1874 said:

I'd say it's a mix of

a) Scottish/UK drinking culture among people that age

b) Clubs not doing enough to protect their young players (mentally as well as physically)

c) Individual mentalities

 

The best thing a promising Scottish player can do for their career is get out of Scottish football sadly.

I'd also add money although maybe that's mentality. Any young player with talent may get offered higher wages at the Old Firm which at a young age may dictate their next step. They end up stalling and breaking through too late, missing key years in development when they could be playing every week elsewhere but for less money. 

More European clubs play their youths from 17 onwards. In Scotland how many players are waiting into their 20s. 

[Factuer Moi]

Scottish football has to step forward in producing strikers, the school system is shite. I would prefer it if young talent was invited into Academy football on scholarships from the age of 14. Designated in refining strengthening that talent. As a small nation we were one of the most advanced attack minded countries in football, being an inside right i was always dreaming about being a Bobby or Keegan type player. I never enjoyed chasing the ball or running back, loved getting at the defence though. My own dreams ended in Bangor hospital 1980.

Sport is fun at the end of the day, Pro sport is much more lethal in culling any talent out there that is stifled at age 14. Way to many negative coaches in the system looking to safe guard their positions before success or failure. That mentality seeps into the youth of the nation, they all want to be worldy on the FIFA games. That is where we are at and competing with, no amount of world class coaching will change it until we can offer them something better. Fencing off the Astro parks , charging use. That has to go first. Open the parks for the kids, give them something to aim for. 

[Hectormasson]

14 hours ago, Bazzas right boot said:

 

 

These guys have the potential to make us a good team, challenge for trophies and be consistent in the league. 

 

That is what is important. 

👏👏👏👏👌

[Bazzas right boot]

13 hours ago, jambo19 said:

I'd also add money although maybe that's mentality. Any young player with talent may get offered higher wages at the Old Firm which at a young age may dictate their next step. They end up stalling and breaking through too late, missing key years in development when they could be playing every week elsewhere but for less money. 

More European clubs play their youths from 17 onwards. In Scotland how many players are waiting into their 20s. 

 

 

I think the lure of the English clubs is a barrier to that as well. 

 

Players don't stay long enough with clubs like Hearts,Hibs or Aberdeen anymore.

 

Any promise and they are away and don't develop. 

[Japan Jambo]

23 hours ago, briever said:

 

I have no idea what happens to our players 16+

 

If you look at how our age group teams perform they are always very competitive, even more so the younger the age group.  I wonder if that's down to other countries prioritising late teens?

 

Far too many of our young talented players seem to fall off a cliff in late teens - but pro sport is as much about the mental aspect than football talent - maybe that's where they lacking.

 

Youth sports tend to lose players are fairly predictable stages - S1/2 when the delights of alternatives at high school await and 15/16 when the delights of girls and partying really take hold.

 

It'll be interesting to see if we do have a striker up our sleeve transfer wise but with Gnando/Walker gone and Henderson having been on form one would have thought that now might be the time for him to step up to the plate. There were glimpses of something at the end of last season and a few appearances off the bench in front of the faithful may be the making of the lad.

[briever]

1 minute ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

It'll be interesting to see if we do have a striker up our sleeve transfer wise but with Gnando/Walker gone and Henderson having been on form one would have thought that now might be the time for him to step up to the plate. There were glimpses of something at the end of last season and a few appearances off the bench in front of the faithful may be the making of the lad.

 

This the right thread?

[Japan Jambo]

1 minute ago, briever said:

 

This the right thread?

 

possibly not, was triggered by your comment with regard to what happens with our younger players.