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22 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye and no. 

 

We'll be lucky to be within 25 points of whoever is champions. 

 

You need 90 points ( give or take) in general to be champions, we are miles of that consistency. 

 

For us or any other team to win the league would mean that the OF have failed miserably, for both them to have poor seasons at the same time is unlikely. 

 

Even to split them you'd need around  80 points if one of them has a poorer season. 

 

It's a massive ask. 

 

Not impossible, if we can get third a few times and in European group stages we can then maybe seriously threaten. 

Before then it's almost impossible. 

We will probably end with 60-63 points, Rangers and Celtic 80 odd points. 

 

It's 6, 7, 8 wins. That is the difference. If we had a forward line of goalscorers, we wouldn't be far away from them. That's what has let us down, drawing v teams we should have beating.

Edited by Cruyff
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Bongo 1874
Just now, Cruyff said:

We will probably end with 60-63 points, Rangers and Celtic 80 odd points. 

 

It's 6, 7, 8 wins. That is the difference. If we had a forward line of goalscorers, we wouldn't be far away from them. That's what has let us down, drawing v teams we should have beating.

Agree with this, an investment of £20mil into the playing squad i reckon would have us even closer. 

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Smith's right boot
19 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

We will probably end with 60-63 points, Rangers and Celtic 80 odd points. 

 

It's 6, 7, 8 wins. That is the difference. If we had a forward line of goalscorers, we wouldn't be far away from them. That's what has let us down, drawing v teams we should have beating.

 

All fair but I don't like the last sentence. Every club says the same. 

 

In theory Celtic and rangers "should" be beating us every time, but thankfully football doesn't work like that or you'd just decide leagues on a spreadsheet. 

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Smith's right boot
4 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Agree with this, an investment of £20mil into the playing squad i reckon would have us even closer. 

 

£30m we'd be even closer! 

😁

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Bongo 1874
Just now, Smith's right boot said:

 

£30m we'd be even closer! 

😁

Yeah but, don't reckon we would need that much😂 if Anderson has any spare cash haha. 

 

We have shown we can compete in most games this season, turning those draws into wins and we would be much closer in league table. 

 

In no way am i having a go at Savage and Robbie they are doing a great job, long may it continue. 

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Bongo 1874

We are lacking 3/4 players of genuine quality to challenge but we aren't far away. 

 

Experience would help too. 

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GinRummy
1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Aye and no. 

 

We'll be lucky to be within 25 points of whoever is champions. 

 

You need 90 points ( give or take) in general to be champions, we are miles of that consistency. 

 

For us or any other team to win the league would mean that the OF have failed miserably, for both them to have poor seasons at the same time is unlikely. 

 

Even to split them you'd need around  80 points if one of them has a poorer season. 

 

It's a massive ask. 

 

Not impossible, if we can get third a few times and in European group stages we can then maybe seriously threaten. 

Before then it's almost impossible. 

I agree. This season, if a few things had gone our way we could have been closer to them but we need to build the club so we can be closer to them regularly, not just once every ten years or so. 
 

Too many times we’ve had a good season followed by a bad season (understandable a lot of the time, considering what the club has been through). We need to be to see progress every season and not the one step forward then two steps back routine we have been playing out.  

Edited by GinRummy
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Led Tasso
39 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

All fair but I don't like the last sentence. Every club says the same. 

 

In theory Celtic and rangers "should" be beating us every time, but thankfully football doesn't work like that or you'd just decide leagues on a spreadsheet. 

 

Indeed.

 

Also, there's something a bit presumptuous about saying "we should be winning more but our front line is holding us back." We have an excellent midfield, a solid defense, and a keeper who's frankly way above what we could normally expect.

 

18 months into a complete rebuild, that's a pretty good place to be.

 

If we manage to maintain the quality through the rest of the squad and bring the final ball up to the same quality, that will be an outstanding achievement.

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Smith's right boot
30 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

I agree. This season, if a few things had gone our way we could have been closer to them but we need to build the club so we can be closer to them regularly, not just once every ten years or so. 
 

Too many times we’ve had a good season followed by a bad season (understandable a lot of the time, considering what the club has been through). We need to be to see progress every season and not the one step forward then two steps back routine we have been playing out.  

 

Yip, consistency in football and in life is under rated.

 

2/3 seasons of 3rd, get into the European group stages- then we can talk titles and splitting the arse cheeks in a serious way.

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Aussie Jambo

This pretty much sums it all up and seen from the eyes from the other side of the border. I actually like that he is questioning why and SFA being the cause. 

 

 

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PortyBeach
9 hours ago, Texaco said:

A sad fact of life. The smaller clubs who will never be up there challenging don't care and are happy to take the 'old firm' £ and west coast 'hospitalty' when it comes calling to piss in your garden. So we kinda stand alone on this apart for maybe hibs and Aberdeen. I hate lying down to bullies so from our point of view all we can do is chip away at it when the opportunity arises. Having FOH reps on the board I hope helps get the fans frustration across on these real issues. Little things like limiting thier fans at Tynecastle and club statements on issues big and small are important steps. Might not get us anywhere but at least I'd feel better calling them out than the usual move on nothing to see attitude. 

Very true. Too few clubs have the will to challenge the duopoly. Scotland’s geography is also a significant factor. 
The cluster of towns within Glasgow’s orbit have football clubs that are inevitably laden with players who support the Uglies and who would be playing for them if they were good enough.

For this reason, a Hearts team getting close to winning the title will always find in the run-up to the end of the campaign that players playing for teams based in Lanarkshire, Ayrshire, or Renfrewshire will be highly motivated to put a spoke in our wheels. 
 

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4 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

We can't split them unless one of them goes into freefall financially.

 

That already happened back in 2012 when Rangers went into liquidation.

 

The Scottish football authorities' solution? Pretend it didn't happen by re-writing history and airbrushing inconvenient facts out of the picture in order to maintain a (currently 36 year) duopoly and safeguard broadcasting and other commercial contracts.

 

The last time a non-Old Firm club won the top league title was back in 1985. Have a good long think about that; 36, going on 37 seasons with no other winner than Celtic or Rangers. That coincided with the ending of clubs sharing gate receipts, a policy change that was introduced entirely at the instigation of the Old Firm duo, designed to widen the already considerable financial gulf between the two best supported clubs and the rest.

 

The problem is - and the reason we will never finish higher than third - all the other clubs such as ourselves agreed to lie down and be walked over for eternity in return for a measly few crumbs from the table.    

Edited by newbie
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5 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Agree with this, an investment of £20mil into the playing squad i reckon would have us even closer. 

 

Just as a point, £25-ish Million was the amount of debt that nearly killed our club for good after the Romanov years. 

 

www.bbc.com/sport/football/21997929

 

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43 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

Just as a point, £25-ish Million was the amount of debt that nearly killed our club for good after the Romanov years. 

 

www.bbc.com/sport/football/21997929

 

With a LOT more spent than that, there were a few times debt was forgiven

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HeartsandonlyHearts

If we ever get to a point that we’re close to challenging then every game against the $#!t teams becomes their biggest game of the season to knock us down a peg. They’d never go into games against the @$$ cheeks with the same fervor. It’s in their DNA. Bend over and take it dry. Scottish football basically sucks.

 

I probably should have read other posts. Many on the same page.

Edited by HeartsandonlyHearts
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pettigrewsstylist

Stating the obvious its about consistency. That is acheived by depth of squad quality. To win our league i suspect that requires a bench worth more than our current starting 11. 3rd is best we can hope for. Newco have closed the gap now in the last 24mths.

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10 hours ago, Smithee said:

With a LOT more spent than that, there were a few times debt was forgiven

 

Oh yeah, of course, we spunked millions and millions of pounds over the years. Hundreds of millions. 

 

All I am saying is that thinking there is going to be a £20 Million investment into the playing squad is deluded fantasy land, and the sort of thinking that nearly finished our club off only a handful of years ago.

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On 08/01/2022 at 10:40, Ron Burgundy said:

The reason we never will is that dropping points to garbage teams is accepted. When anyone complains they are met with the old stop being entitled crap and we have only won blah blah in blah blah years so we should know our place.

 

We should be third each season at a canter with the amount of cash we spunk but can't even manage that.

 

This.

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the Hearts way

Cheers for all your replies and thoughts on this. Appreciated.  Onwards and upwards HHGH 👍 FTA.  Only Hearts.  

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Spellczech

Something particularly annoying is that Hearts debut a superb young LB at a time when Scotland NT has its best 2 players as LBs and Rangers debut a great young RB at a time when Scotland have no RBs and next thing you know they get 10m for him!

 

Our failures to tie up Patterson, Hickey and now Souttar on long-term deals and watch them leave for nothing or for less than we'd hope for is galling. With us back in the Top 3 you'd hope this gets addressed but it appears not with Souttar...

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GinRummy
2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Something particularly annoying is that Hearts debut a superb young LB at a time when Scotland NT has its best 2 players as LBs and Rangers debut a great young RB at a time when Scotland have no RBs and next thing you know they get 10m for him!

 

Our failures to tie up Patterson, Hickey and now Souttar on long-term deals and watch them leave for nothing or for less than we'd hope for is galling. With us back in the Top 3 you'd hope this gets addressed but it appears not with Souttar...

 

 

I’d imagine contract length will be Savage’s direct responsibility and hope we can do better. Decent lengths of initial contract for both Beni and Devlin is encouraging. Souttar is an unusual case though, not long back from injury when we wouldn’t realistically offer him a fresh contract. 

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Jamhammer
On 08/01/2022 at 03:15, tian447 said:

You're forgetting the fact that we don't just have to beat Celtic and Rangers.  Everything in this county is set up to favour those of a Glasgow persuasion, from the media, to the mentality of other teams, to the very set up of the leagues. 

 

Teams are taught to fear them and respect them. A point is something that might be taken or stolen from them, but never earned and deserved.  They come to town, and teams shut up shop before the game even kicks off, in an attempt to keep the score down instead of having a go. The odd results sneak past, but it's usually pretty much the same thing any time a team plays the Old Firm: they don't play their normal way, they sit deep and try and keep it respectable, and once they inevitably concede, they're stuffed and have to open up to try and get back in the game, or accept getting beat.  It feels like that attitude is ingrained in all teams, and definitely not just in games we play against them.

 

The media has a lot more impact than just match reports.  We don't even have to be near them in the table to see the media reports of supposed transfer interest of our top players before we play them, in a thinly veiled (and quite frankly moronic) attempt to unsettle us.  It's not even just things like that, if one of their players commits a terrible foul, it is never given a second glance, and never even makes an airing on Sportscene, but if a non OF player so much as farts in the general direction of one of theirs, it starts a damned witchhunt in the papers and reports.  It happens time, and time again.  Think of the difference in reaction to the Aribo challenge versus us, and the Porteous challenge versus Rangers.  Both were horrific, but one was instantly vilified, and the other... Well.

 

Old Firm players get refereed differently, and teams are treated differently with what they are allowed to say or do before things like bans start getting thrown around.  Managers find themselves in the stands for a couple of games for daring to point out things that actually happened, but it doesn't fit the Green and Blue narrative. 

 

Everything is geared around treating those two like Billy Big Baws, and until that changes, I honestly don't see us having any chance of being allowed to get near the top.  The dodgy decisions and yellow cards to get top players banned for a couple of games will come out in full force if anyone manages a really good run.  Sure, we might get one over on them now and again, but if we start to threaten the Status Quo more regularly and consistently, it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner. 

Superb post.

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Bongo 1874
On 08/01/2022 at 21:01, Aussie Jambo said:

This pretty much sums it all up and seen from the eyes from the other side of the border. I actually like that he is questioning why and SFA being the cause. 

 

 

Either we secure significant investment from someone, or this would be the road to go down, as much as that Conway is a **** he's spot on with that. 

 

 Celtic are going to sign Riley McGree, pm mate 👍

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Hearts1975

The bottom line is that over the last 7 years or so, now is probably the time that everyone should be able to see that there is a clear plan in place, and most importantly, everything is progressing nicely. 
Not much is said about McKinley but again, and like Savage, this is proving to be a rather astute move by AB and getting him in place 

Not just Savage, but he has obviously brought some quality into the recruitment team 

It just feels like we are now being influenced by some really good people - JA joining the board etc 

Small steps and we continue to build the blocks and to progress the club. We aren’t trying to buy our way out of trouble either - we can now leave that to the Leith Junkies and piss ourselves laughing when the wheels come off 

We won’t win the league - for a while anyway. If we are ever going to do it I genuinely believe that the way we are going about our business is the only real way we could get close to the OF but still, it will take time and patience is required 

Good times ahead me thinks 

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the Hearts way
On 08/01/2022 at 20:01, Aussie Jambo said:

This pretty much sums it all up and seen from the eyes from the other side of the border. I actually like that he is questioning why and SFA being the cause. 

 

 

Great Post,  thanks HHGH Onwards and upwards 👍 

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the Hearts way
On 09/01/2022 at 17:00, Spellczech said:

Something particularly annoying is that Hearts debut a superb young LB at a time when Scotland NT has its best 2 players as LBs and Rangers debut a great young RB at a time when Scotland have no RBs and next thing you know they get 10m for him!

 

Our failures to tie up Patterson, Hickey and now Souttar on long-term deals and watch them leave for nothing or for less than we'd hope for is galling. With us back in the Top 3 you'd hope this gets addressed but it appears not with Souttar...

If Souttar signs for Rangers on a pre-contract,  then in my opinion he's the lowest of the low. We stuck by him through his terrible injuries and his 'thanks' ....is 

"see ya's,  I'm chasing the coin" 

He could easily sign a two year contract with us, so we receive decent money for all our faith and commitment we've put into his (injury laden) career 👏.  Cheers Soupy ya selfish fud ! 

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buzzbomb1958
On 09/01/2022 at 11:27, tian447 said:

 

Oh yeah, of course, we spunked millions and millions of pounds over the years. Hundreds of millions. 

 

All I am saying is that thinking there is going to be a £20 Million investment into the playing squad is deluded fantasy land, and the sort of thinking that nearly finished our club off only a handful of years ago.

I agree maybe I’m wrong but we really need to bring in some foreign coaches for our academy because the Scottish way is old fashioned and boring. If you do not inject new ideas and new ways of introducing new training methods which actually concentrate on ball skills and especially fitness which I feel are badly lacking in young lads these days.If you look at foreign players of the same age the majority seem to be years ahead of our lads . If we continue with the old age run of the mill ideas our leagues will be left further and further adrift and before people say ah but some of the football we have to watch is absolutely cronic, someone has to be brave and change the systems which exist .

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Pasquale for King
1 hour ago, buzzbomb1958 said:

I agree maybe I’m wrong but we really need to bring in some foreign coaches for our academy because the Scottish way is old fashioned and boring. If you do not inject new ideas and new ways of introducing new training methods which actually concentrate on ball skills and especially fitness which I feel are badly lacking in young lads these days.If you look at foreign players of the same age the majority seem to be years ahead of our lads . If we continue with the old age run of the mill ideas our leagues will be left further and further adrift and before people say ah but some of the football we have to watch is absolutely cronic, someone has to be brave and change the systems which exist .

I agree but we have plenty of Scottish coaches who have learnt their trade abroad and want to play in a more modern way, dare i say we had one in Cathro and Hibs also have one now. 
As long as they want to challenge the old order I’m not particularly bothered where they come from. 
 

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On 08/01/2022 at 20:01, Aussie Jambo said:

This pretty much sums it all up and seen from the eyes from the other side of the border. I actually like that he is questioning why and SFA being the cause. 

 

 

 

Hard to disagree with much of what this guy says. Does it need a foreign owner to implement though? I'd like to see us try the moneyball method for a few seasons with an attacking team like he says. You need to be prepared to sell your best players after the first season though, and have a conveyor belt ready to replace then. 

 

I think Robbie's doing a great job just now, but it would need a change in mindset from the coaching staff, as people are more likely to come in and poach players from a team that's attacking and tearing up the rest of the league than one which is more ponderous. 

 

PS Atkinson another good length of contract - assuming that he is a good player for us! 

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2 hours ago, Forrest said:

 

Hard to disagree with much of what this guy says. Does it need a foreign owner to implement though? I'd like to see us try the moneyball method for a few seasons with an attacking team like he says. You need to be prepared to sell your best players after the first season though, and have a conveyor belt ready to replace then. 

 

I think Robbie's doing a great job just now, but it would need a change in mindset from the coaching staff, as people are more likely to come in and poach players from a team that's attacking and tearing up the rest of the league than one which is more ponderous. 

 

PS Atkinson another good length of contract - assuming that he is a good player for us! 

Like I said with Devlin. I’ve been watching A league since 2005. Thats when it started going. Dwight Yorke played for my second team Sydney FC. Devlin played for us. I know Atkinson very well. He’s a machine. Wait till he plays. He’s one cool cookie and he loves to have a shot at goal. 

Just say that myself & @fila will let you know anything about A-League. But I wasn’t wrong with Devlin. In definitely right about Atkinson. You’ll love him. Devlin & Atkinson know each other from A-League. Plus Australia National team. They are definitely both legends. 

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Smith's right boot
8 hours ago, Forrest said:

 

Hard to disagree with much of what this guy says. Does it need a foreign owner to implement though? I'd like to see us try the moneyball method for a few seasons with an attacking team like he says. You need to be prepared to sell your best players after the first season though, and have a conveyor belt ready to replace then. 

 

I think Robbie's doing a great job just now, but it would need a change in mindset from the coaching staff, as people are more likely to come in and poach players from a team that's attacking and tearing up the rest of the league than one which is more ponderous. 

 

PS Atkinson another good length of contract - assuming that he is a good player for us! 

 

It's hard to disagree other than that it's yet to be done.

In theory it makes some sense but in practice it's far more difficult or every club would do it.

 

Hibs and  Aberdeen will be thinking the same, not to mention celtic and Rangers.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Forrest said:

 

Hard to disagree with much of what this guy says. Does it need a foreign owner to implement though? I'd like to see us try the moneyball method for a few seasons with an attacking team like he says. You need to be prepared to sell your best players after the first season though, and have a conveyor belt ready to replace then. 

 

I think Robbie's doing a great job just now, but it would need a change in mindset from the coaching staff, as people are more likely to come in and poach players from a team that's attacking and tearing up the rest of the league than one which is more ponderous. 

 

PS Atkinson another good length of contract - assuming that he is a good player for us! 

 

Football metrics are much harder to sort out than baseball metrics (where Billy Beane developed Moneyball). In baseball, teamwork is important in a handful of situations, but on the whole it's far easier to break out a player's individual value. E.g., slugging average, throw-outs from the outfield, and so forth. From this, you can use statistical decomposition to estimate that total win value for each player, then check that against their existing contracts. Moneyball was all about trading for players who had high win value to salary ratios, developing them, then trading again (or simply keeping them and winning pennants). While there are slight differences in the way that managers deploy players, generally a right fielder is a right fielder is a right fielder. You don't have to worry about "fit."

 

In football, a player can very easily be brilliant in one system and gash in another, or simply have an outstanding connection with one teammate and have their production disappear if that player leaves or gets hurt. That's why the Red Sox ownership group, which had hired Beane himself to win their first World Series since they traded away Babe Ruth, completely failed at Liverpool when they tried to directly apply the same principles. Liverpool didn't win a title until they brought in a proper football manager with significant control over the whole operation and simply supplemented him with metrics information.

 

I think we're trying something close to the Moneyball approach. Whereas Levein was happy to sop up higher level players on the downhill slope of their careers, Savage has switched to the "under 26" model, which for most football players means they're likely to improve still.

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the Hearts way
10 hours ago, Aussie Jambo said:

Like I said with Devlin. I’ve been watching A league since 2005. Thats when it started going. Dwight Yorke played for my second team Sydney FC. Devlin played for us. I know Atkinson very well. He’s a machine. Wait till he plays. He’s one cool cookie and he loves to have a shot at goal. 

Just say that myself & @fila will let you know anything about A-League. But I wasn’t wrong with Devlin. In definitely right about Atkinson. You’ll love him. Devlin & Atkinson know each other from A-League. Plus Australia National team. They are definitely both legends. 

That is exactly 💯 %, in the know.  

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On 10/01/2022 at 12:05, Bongo 1874 said:

Either we secure significant investment from someone, or this would be the road to go down, as much as that Conway is a **** he's spot on with that. 

 

 Celtic are going to sign Riley McGree, pm mate 👍


good to see they couldn’t afford him 

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Just now, fila said:


good to see they couldn’t afford him 

Yeah have you seen much of him mate? 

 

Would he have added to there squad? 

 

Going to start following the A- league myself, seems to be very underrated. 

Edited by Bongo 1874
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5 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Yeah have you seen much of him mate? 

 

Would he have added to there squad? 

 

Going to start following the A- league myself, seems to be very underrated. 

He has played overseas for a few years so haven’t seen him live , although he gets good reviews 

 

alwasy pleasing to see them miss out on a player 

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the Hearts way
7 minutes ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Yeah have you seen much of him mate? 

 

Would he have added to there squad? 

 

Going to start following the A- league myself, seems to be very underrated. 

Their squad are not A square not of nowt from

HEART OF MIDLOTHIAN FOOTBALL CLUB 

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Just now, the Hearts way said:

So, we're on the same wavelength! HHGH Onwards and upwards 👍 

Mate I've always been on the same wavelength, Hearts have the potential to do something great, we can challenge the old firm, this bullshit mentality of we can't annoys me so much. 

 

But to challenge them you have to put the fundamentals in place, by either getting good investment, it would help if we could make more revenue from our stadium, which in 10 years time I think will be too small so you could expand the capacity but again this will take time and money. 

 

And can we make more on player sales, I don't see the need in a new training ground, we have the best facilities in Scotland in my opinion the best academy. 

 

 

 

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the Hearts way
16 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

Mate I've always been on the same wavelength, Hearts have the potential to do something great, we can challenge the old firm, this bullshit mentality of we can't annoys me so much. 

 

But to challenge them you have to put the fundamentals in place, by either getting good investment, it would help if we could make more revenue from our stadium, which in 10 years time I think will be too small so you could expand the capacity but again this will take time and money. 

 

And can we make more on player sales, I don't see the need in a new training ground, we have the best facilities in Scotland in my opinion the best academy. 

 

 

 

I agree 100%, our selling of our best player's has been atrocious over the year's

Craig Gordon being the only exception as far as I'm concerned!

Believe.

  HHGH Onwards and upwards 👍 

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We won’t if we sell or allow our good players to wear the weegie colours. 
 

One day we may decided not to allow the likes of Soutter to go to the dark side by offering them decent money. 

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5 hours ago, Boy Daniel said:

We won’t if we sell or allow our good players to wear the weegie colours. 
 

One day we may decided not to allow the likes of Soutter to go to the dark side by offering them decent money. 

We probably offered Souttar as much as we could afford but the orca will always have more money to spend on wages than us. Nothing will change that unless we have a stadium and fill it with 40-50,000

Champions league regular is the other way to catch them but then u would have to split the arse cheeks and regularly 

 

When we sign players we should write into their contracts that they can’t sign for the OF.
 

The ambitious ones who want to get to England will still come, but it will stop the unambitious ones, like Souttar, who are playing for a move 50miles down the nearest motorway and a fatter pay check to play in the same shitehouse Scottish league, that they were playing in previously 

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Reality is most European leagues are dominated by  two clubs, including the so called competitive English setup. The only difference in Scotland is that the two dominant clubs owe their position to Sectarian bigotry.

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Never understood the mentality of trying to split them. If you're aiming to finish above one of them you might as well aim to finish above both. 

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