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the Hearts way

Why can't we split them?

Thoughts,,, ?

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campbell

We don’t have the money! I’d love to do it & I believe in a one off one season someone could do & could even win the league I mean you’ve got to believe there is a Leicester season somewhere in the future but in my life following hearts no one has won the league & let’s be honest no one other than us 1 season & the season rangers were in the lower leagues no one has been close to splitting them! I’d settle for consistently finishing 3rd for now & build from there 

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the Hearts way

Agreed for settling for 3rd place,  for the time being but soon, we'll be splitting them. FOH.   Only Hearts.  

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Bongo 1874
Just now, the Hearts way said:

Why can't we split them?

Thoughts,,, ?

We can, with Savage in place I'm confident. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Bongo 1874 said:

We can, with Savage in place I'm confident. 

 

 

Doubt it. Because as soon as they think we are getting close, one or other cheek will offer him a job at triple his wage. It is just the Weegie way😉

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We won't split the OF this season.

 

They will finish 1st and 2nd.

 

We won't split the OF next season.

 

They will finish 2nd and 3rd.

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1 minute ago, martoon said:

We won't split the OF this season.

 

They will finish 1st and 2nd.

 

We won't split the OF next season.

 

They will finish 2nd and 3rd.

Nice thread to open?,then martoon gets post of the year in the first week , marvellous 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻.    👏🏻

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the Hearts way
Posted (edited)

Why do you not, think we'll split them next season? @ Martoon. First And  foremost ;) ! I get it. Talk of the toon!

Always room for recovery next season.  HHGH.  Onwards and upwards.  

 

Edited by the Hearts way
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You're forgetting the fact that we don't just have to beat Celtic and Rangers.  Everything in this county is set up to favour those of a Glasgow persuasion, from the media, to the mentality of other teams, to the very set up of the leagues. 

 

Teams are taught to fear them and respect them. A point is something that might be taken or stolen from them, but never earned and deserved.  They come to town, and teams shut up shop before the game even kicks off, in an attempt to keep the score down instead of having a go. The odd results sneak past, but it's usually pretty much the same thing any time a team plays the Old Firm: they don't play their normal way, they sit deep and try and keep it respectable, and once they inevitably concede, they're stuffed and have to open up to try and get back in the game, or accept getting beat.  It feels like that attitude is ingrained in all teams, and definitely not just in games we play against them.

 

The media has a lot more impact than just match reports.  We don't even have to be near them in the table to see the media reports of supposed transfer interest of our top players before we play them, in a thinly veiled (and quite frankly moronic) attempt to unsettle us.  It's not even just things like that, if one of their players commits a terrible foul, it is never given a second glance, and never even makes an airing on Sportscene, but if a non OF player so much as farts in the general direction of one of theirs, it starts a damned witchhunt in the papers and reports.  It happens time, and time again.  Think of the difference in reaction to the Aribo challenge versus us, and the Porteous challenge versus Rangers.  Both were horrific, but one was instantly vilified, and the other... Well.

 

Old Firm players get refereed differently, and teams are treated differently with what they are allowed to say or do before things like bans start getting thrown around.  Managers find themselves in the stands for a couple of games for daring to point out things that actually happened, but it doesn't fit the Green and Blue narrative. 

 

Everything is geared around treating those two like Billy Big Baws, and until that changes, I honestly don't see us having any chance of being allowed to get near the top.  The dodgy decisions and yellow cards to get top players banned for a couple of games will come out in full force if anyone manages a really good run.  Sure, we might get one over on them now and again, but if we start to threaten the Status Quo more regularly and consistently, it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner. 

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jamtartan74

It’s pretty simple. We shop in Morrisons they shop in Marks n Spencer’s. We might find a nice ready meal in said supermarket but they will buy the most freshest of ingredients in their said supermarket to make a delicious meal that ours couldn’t compete with… 


(Other supermarket chains are available) 

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54 minutes ago, jamtartan74 said:

It’s pretty simple. We shop in Morrisons they shop in Marks n Spencer’s. We might find a nice ready meal in said supermarket but they will buy the most freshest of ingredients in their said supermarket to make a delicious meal that ours couldn’t compete with… 


(Other supermarket chains are available) 

Nicely put , simply and sadly the squad isn’t not good enough to put together a sustained challenge throughout the season. 

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Kiwidoug

We need the players to believe like Martoon believes.

 

I'll settle for 3rs this season plus a shiny Scottish Cup.

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6 minutes ago, Kiwidoug said:

We need the players to believe like Martoon believes.

 

I'll settle for 3rs this season plus a shiny Scottish Cup.

Agreed, first and foremost we need the players, management, staff and supporters to believe along with a winning mentality. I’m disappointed after a good start in our first season back in the first flight that 3rd looks like our best opportunity now. However, we have added and continue to add some better calibre players, this gives me hope. Having so many top performers at the end of their contracts makes me a little nervous though. HHGH

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4 hours ago, martoon said:

We won't split the OF this season.

 

They will finish 1st and 2nd.

 

We won't split the OF next season.

 

They will finish 2nd and 3rd.

I like the cut of your jib, sir!

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As long as referees continue to give Celtic and Rangers pretty much every decision nothing will change,you notice when the two of then play in Europe the foreign refs generally give them nothing and the look of bemusement on players and fans faces alike is great to see 

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We can moan about the OF bias and use it as an excuse, but until we stop dropping points away at Ross County, at home to Dundee, Aberdeen, Hibs, lose away games at Motherwell, then there's no danger we will win the league, let alone split the OF.

To beat them we have to be like them. Ruthless for the whole length of the game.

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5 hours ago, Bongo 1874 said:

We can, with Savage in place I'm confident. 

 

 


I think we’ve started too slow this season. We got too many draws that should have been wins.

 

I do think Savage and Robbie have built the most solid foundations in a long time though and there is cup potential in this team.

 

Need to add a CB and some more forward options though (IMO) 

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Bull's-eye

If the playing field was level, possibly.

 

It's like a ski slope for everyone else though.

A sport run solely for the enjoyment of 2 despicable institutions.

It'll never change.

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sassenach

Absolutely we can!

 

The Cheeks have resources greater than the rest of us, but they only have so much room in their squads.  It's up to us to get the best of the remaining good players, and the great players that The Cheeks missed.  We should be the most attractive proposition outside of Glasgow, so there is no reason why we shouldn't be at least third most seasons.  I understand that history tells us otherwise, and we have no divine right, but I believe the point still stands.  Apart from everything else we are in Edinburgh, and this alone should give us an advantage.

 

We are still rebuilding after our expulsion, but we have already competed well against The Cheeks this season.  The next step is to become more consistent against the other teams.  We would already be above Celtic but for points dropped against St Johnstone, Dundee, Hibs etc.  Again, I know we have no divine right to beat these teams, but we have the resources to be able to.

 

A thing that I believe holds Scottish clubs back with recruitment is the money on offer at even mediocre clubs in England.  Unfortunately we can't compete with that, but if we can consistently finish third we can offer European football.  This could entice decent, motivated Scottish players to come to Hearts rather than just picking up a wage down south.  It could also encourage talented English players to consider moving north.

 

Once we have the things I have described in place and embedded, it would only take a bit of an off season by one of The Cheeks for us to finish above them.  Or even challenge for the title.  If we can consistently beat the rest, and compete with The Cheeks, we can be up there competing.

 

I know there are lots of ifs and buts in this.  But the OP said "why can't we?", not "will we?".  We now appear to have a decent backroom team in place, so absolutely we can.  I will always have that dream and belief, otherwise there would be no point.

Edited by sassenach
Poor sentence structure. I'm a pedant 🤣
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portobellojambo1

Even accepting that the playing field isn't equal, in as much as many of the referees/linesmen/officials have a bias towards one side of the OF or the other, in some cases both, creating a unit that can and wil compete, and beat the OF has to start internally. I look at both halves of the OF, and maybe I'm looking at them with clouded eyes, but I don't see any players within either team who I'd class as superstars. What I do see is two sets of players who are filled with beleief and operate in an environment where the only acceptable outcome of a football game is a win. The last time I really saw a similar attitude at Tynecastle was when George Burley was the manager. With a few additions, some good some not so good, he took the players we had at Tynecastle and put beleif in their heads, had them beleiving they were all good football players, and approached games in the right manner. He was only here for a far too short period of time but in the vast majority of the games we had them won by half time. It wasn't a case of sitting off the opposition, especially the OF, and packing the defence to create frustration. It was getting in front, once in front looking to extend that lead and then playing out the game. We'll never know how that season coud have finished but it would have been delightful to find out. I'm fairly sure that Joe Savage will look to bring in players which fit his image, and hopefully that of the present coach/management, players who can take us to the next level and win football games, which is what Savage believes in. He wants winners at Tynecastle, and if it transpires that the present management team aren't best placed to convert the players into a sodie who can compete with, split or be better than both havles of the OF then we have to consider changes at management level as well. This season if we can maintain third place then that in itself will bring benefits to the club, in the form of additional finance, both from competing in Europe and from the additional fan numbers that a successful team. Then we can look to do something domestically from next season. But it does need a change in style, if aby club, not just HMFC, want to change how the top of the league pans out it involves a change, in as much as piling players into defence and hoping to defen to success has to be set aside and the playing style should reflect a desire to change the very approach to not just games versu OF, but all games, go into each lininig up and looking to win. At the end of the day goals win games, points bring prizes and that is the way the game should be played and the sort of beleif that needs to be built into the players.

Edited by portobellojambo1
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Smith's right boot

Might need patience. 

 

IMO we can't realistically think  about splitting the of unless we are in the European league stages regularly. 

 

We just can't attract the quality of player or get the squad size needed without this to challenge for the title. 

That is the first step, and Aberdeen won't take it lying down. 

 

If we can get in about the European league stages, pay more and add more quality we can consolidate 3rd and look up. 

 

We haven't even been 3rd for about 5 seasons. 

We need to make that ours then go From here. 

 

Ambition has to be tempered with realism. 

 

 

 

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Smith's right boot
7 hours ago, Canscot said:

Doubt it. Because as soon as they think we are getting close, one or other cheek will offer him a job at triple his wage. It is just the Weegie way😉

 

Yip, even if we finish 3rd say for two seasons in a row and are improving the team and mgt will be ripped apart. 

 

However, if we get to any European group stage, then financially the gap closes. 

 

We need European group stage football imo before we can think about the title. 

 

If we can get that next season it will be huge step forward. 

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1971fozzy

Not this season but  if we can get 3rd, get Europa groups and with the  FOH money coming in we have a chance.

thankfully now we have very good recruitment, and won’t spunk money away on has beens or unmotivated garbage like we did under Leveins reign.

looks very promising.

The corrupt referees etc are the one problem that is nigh on impossible to fix, however maybe VAR will help.

 

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2 hours ago, Boris said:

We can moan about the OF bias and use it as an excuse, but until we stop dropping points away at Ross County, at home to Dundee, Aberdeen, Hibs, lose away games at Motherwell, then there's no danger we will win the league, let alone split the OF.

To beat them we have to be like them. Ruthless for the whole length of the game.

 

This is it right here! 

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8 hours ago, the Hearts way said:

Why can't we split them?

Thoughts,,, ?

We can. We’ve did it before, albeit rarely but more than other non OF clubs.

 

I think some things need to align though.  We need to win more games and have the drive to do so and not settle for draws in cagey games, you sometimes need one of the OF to be slightly off it than normal too.

 

I hope our attitude is turning again in the club under JS. I want us to be that club again who is more consistently closer to them than others and we are the ones who steal in when the chance comes.  

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8 hours ago, martoon said:

We won't split the OF this season.

 

They will finish 1st and 2nd.

 

We won't split the OF next season.

 

They will finish 2nd and 3rd.

I like the cut of your cloth sir. 👏

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Ron Burgundy

The reason we never will is that dropping points to garbage teams is accepted. When anyone complains they are met with the old stop being entitled crap and we have only won blah blah in blah blah years so we should know our place.

 

We should be third each season at a canter with the amount of cash we spunk but can't even manage that.

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AlphonseCapone

I hate the term and concept of splitting the old firm. It's a very Glasgow mentality where everything is based around them and the assumption they will always be 1st and 2nd. 

 

If we're going to think big, about our potential, we should do it properly. Can we win the league? 

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Both arse cheeks had a "wobble" at the early part of the season, since then they have looked stronger with players getting fit/bedding in. They will strengthen again over the next 6 months. Meanwhile (jokes a side) Aberdeen and Hibs have been rotten and will improve slowly but surely and in return make the league steonger.

Therefore I see nothing to suggest a changing of the guard.

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Ex member of the SaS

Any serious attempt to split them will fail due to the way the officials run the games. It's not just against them it filters down to playing the rest as decisions in these games means a win loss or draw that can change your season.

As soon as it looks like we will split them the rules change.

The only realistic way we would split them is if Sevco have another meltdown and lose loads of players.

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Ex member of the SaS
36 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

I hate the term and concept of splitting the old firm. It's a very Glasgow mentality where everything is based around them and the assumption they will always be 1st and 2nd. 

 

If we're going to think big, about our potential, we should do it properly. Can we win the league? 

We as a club have to be careful that we don't chase the rainbow and over spend trying to split them. It is a simple fact that football in Scotland from the top down to the linesmen is geared around these two clubs.

A top to bottom change is needed before we ever see anything like a level playing field.

League money split in their favour

TV money split in their favour 

Entry into Champs league is geared in their favour. 

League voting is geared in their favour.

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Spellczech
14 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

We as a club have to be careful that we don't chase the rainbow and over spend trying to split them. It is a simple fact that football in Scotland from the top down to the linesmen is geared around these two clubs.

A top to bottom change is needed before we ever see anything like a level playing field.

League money split in their favour

TV money split in their favour 

Entry into Champs league is geared in their favour. 

League voting is geared in their favour.

Officials "errors" are geared in their favour

Work permits are geared in their favour

Media coverage of fake transfer rumours is geared in their favour

 

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gowestjambo
2 hours ago, portobellojambo1 said:

Even accepting that the playing field isn't equal, in as much as many of the referees/linesmen/officials have a bias towards one side of the OF or the other, in some cases both, creating a unit that can and wil compete, and beat the OF has to start internally. I look at both halves of the OF, and maybe I'm looking at them with clouded eyes, but I don't see any players within either team who I'd class as superstars. What I do see is two sets of players who are filled with beleief and operate in an environment where the only acceptable outcome of a football game is a win. The last time I really saw a similar attitude at Tynecastle was when George Burley was the manager. With a few additions, some good some not so good, he took the players we had at Tynecastle and put beleif in their heads, had them beleiving they were all good football players, and approached games in the right manner. He was only here for a far too short period of time but in the vast majority of the games we had them won by half time. It wasn't a case of sitting off the opposition, especially the OF, and packing the defence to create frustration. It was getting in front, once in front looking to extend that lead and then playing out the game. We'll never know how that season coud have finished but it would have been delightful to find out. I'm fairly sure that Joe Savage will look to bring in players which fit his image, and hopefully that of the present coach/management, players who can take us to the next level and win football games, which is what Savage believes in. He wants winners at Tynecastle, and if it transpires that the present management team aren't best placed to convert the players into a sodie who can compete with, split or be better than both havles of the OF then we have to consider changes at management level as well. This season if we can maintain third place then that in itself will bring benefits to the club, in the form of additional finance, both from competing in Europe and from the additional fan numbers that a successful team. Then we can look to do something domestically from next season. But it does need a change in style, if aby club, not just HMFC, want to change how the top of the league pans out it involves a change, in as much as piling players into defence and hoping to defen to success has to be set aside and the playing style should reflect a desire to change the very approach to not just games versu OF, but all games, go into each lininig up and looking to win. At the end of the day goals win games, points bring prizes and that is the way the game should be played and the sort of beleif that needs to be built into the players.

 

Best post so far. Whether you think you can or you cannot you are right. If you don't believe deep down you can achieve then it wont happen. Thats why many Sports clubs employ Motivation Guru's to change players attitudes. Great things can happen when you believe, history is full of examples. However, Belief has to start at the top and be reinforced continually until it becomes second nature. Negative people around the club have to be binned or accept the new mind set.

 

The fact that most Hearts supporters don't believe it can happen, needs to be changed. As PJ1 mentioned, look at what happened with how the team started each game when Burley was in charge.

 

Getting something from the game, having more possession, making excuses and playing your way into the game have to be consigned to history.

 

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I think first thing to do is add teams to the league so we only play each other twice. No point beating Rangers or Celtic at home once then getting pumped in Glasgow 4 times. 

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GinRummy

As far as league form goes we struggle to string 2 or 3 seasons together and have done for a long time.  That’s on us. We will need to sustain and build over several years before we can challenge the old firm. Needs investment and continuous good recruitment in management and players and it could be done. 

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8 hours ago, tian447 said:

You're forgetting the fact that we don't just have to beat Celtic and Rangers.  Everything in this county is set up to favour those of a Glasgow persuasion, from the media, to the mentality of other teams, to the very set up of the leagues. 

 

Teams are taught to fear them and respect them. A point is something that might be taken or stolen from them, but never earned and deserved.  They come to town, and teams shut up shop before the game even kicks off, in an attempt to keep the score down instead of having a go. The odd results sneak past, but it's usually pretty much the same thing any time a team plays the Old Firm: they don't play their normal way, they sit deep and try and keep it respectable, and once they inevitably concede, they're stuffed and have to open up to try and get back in the game, or accept getting beat.  It feels like that attitude is ingrained in all teams, and definitely not just in games we play against them.

 

The media has a lot more impact than just match reports.  We don't even have to be near them in the table to see the media reports of supposed transfer interest of our top players before we play them, in a thinly veiled (and quite frankly moronic) attempt to unsettle us.  It's not even just things like that, if one of their players commits a terrible foul, it is never given a second glance, and never even makes an airing on Sportscene, but if a non OF player so much as farts in the general direction of one of theirs, it starts a damned witchhunt in the papers and reports.  It happens time, and time again.  Think of the difference in reaction to the Aribo challenge versus us, and the Porteous challenge versus Rangers.  Both were horrific, but one was instantly vilified, and the other... Well.

 

Old Firm players get refereed differently, and teams are treated differently with what they are allowed to say or do before things like bans start getting thrown around.  Managers find themselves in the stands for a couple of games for daring to point out things that actually happened, but it doesn't fit the Green and Blue narrative. 

 

Everything is geared around treating those two like Billy Big Baws, and until that changes, I honestly don't see us having any chance of being allowed to get near the top.  The dodgy decisions and yellow cards to get top players banned for a couple of games will come out in full force if anyone manages a really good run.  Sure, we might get one over on them now and again, but if we start to threaten the Status Quo more regularly and consistently, it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner. 

A sad fact of life. The smaller clubs who will never be up there challenging don't care and are happy to take the 'old firm' £ and west coast 'hospitalty' when it comes calling to piss in your garden. So we kinda stand alone on this apart for maybe hibs and Aberdeen. I hate lying down to bullies so from our point of view all we can do is chip away at it when the opportunity arises. Having FOH reps on the board I hope helps get the fans frustration across on these real issues. Little things like limiting thier fans at Tynecastle and club statements on issues big and small are important steps. Might not get us anywhere but at least I'd feel better calling them out than the usual move on nothing to see attitude. 

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10 hours ago, maggieb said:

Nice thread to open?,then martoon gets post of the year in the first week , marvellous 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻.    👏🏻

 

10 hours ago, the Hearts way said:

Why do you not, think we'll split them next season? @ Martoon. First And  foremost ;) ! I get it. Talk of the toon!

Always room for recovery next season.  HHGH.  Onwards and upwards.  

 

 

2 hours ago, poultry said:

I like the cut of your cloth sir. 👏

 

👍😊

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Spellczech
48 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

As far as league form goes we struggle to string 2 or 3 seasons together and have done for a long time.  That’s on us. We will need to sustain and build over several years before we can challenge the old firm. Needs investment and continuous good recruitment in management and players and it could be done. 

That is a tactic of the OF. Any team that gets even close to them gets ripped apart in the summer by them taking their pick of players whether they want them or not....Then add in that the Welsh clubs appear to regard Scotland as good pickings for cheap talent...

 

Bosman has destroyed any chance of anyone doing what the New Firm did in the early 80s. Splitting the OF isn't worth it - frightful return on investment. You have to try to catch them both in transition years. This year was probably a good year to have a go but it came too soon for us.

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GinRummy
Just now, Spellczech said:

That is a tactic of the OF. Any team that gets even close to them gets ripped apart in the summer by them taking their pick of players whether they want them or not....Then add in that the Welsh clubs appear to regard Scotland as good pickings for cheap talent...

 

Bosman has destroyed any chance of anyone doing what the New Firm did in the early 80s. Splitting the OF isn't worth it - frightful return on investment. You have to try to catch them both in transition years. This year was probably a good year to have a go but it came too soon for us.

Pretty much agree. We just need to do our bit better by consistently being the best of the rest and build our club the best we can. Easier to resist fast cash from the old firm when we are doing well financially. 

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Mysterion

Will be interesting to see if VAR improves decisions that frequently go against non Glasgow teams.

 

It leaves less room for referees to hide from giving crowd influenced decisions.

 

With stability and growth Hearts will gradually eat away at some aspects of Rangers/Celtic’s size advantages. It’s all about small improvements year on year.

 

This year (IMO) the improvement is the supporters who are backing the team in higher numbers which looks to improves the team.

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We can't do it this season but we aren't miles away either. We've put I'm good performances v the OF and have had our chances in those games. We lack a wee bit of quality in forward areas that would have had us very close to them imo. The rest of our team is pretty solid. 

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Led Tasso

Whether we split them or not, we need to be consistently nipping at their heels. Even if we don’t do it this year, I want them hitting the split with at least one of them fully worried about their European places because of us.

 

As for how to do it, to be the best you have to beat the best. Savage and Neilson have the right idea—we need wins in Glasgow. 

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11 hours ago, tian447 said:

You're forgetting the fact that we don't just have to beat Celtic and Rangers.  Everything in this county is set up to favour those of a Glasgow persuasion, from the media, to the mentality of other teams, to the very set up of the leagues. 

 

Teams are taught to fear them and respect them. A point is something that might be taken or stolen from them, but never earned and deserved.  They come to town, and teams shut up shop before the game even kicks off, in an attempt to keep the score down instead of having a go. The odd results sneak past, but it's usually pretty much the same thing any time a team plays the Old Firm: they don't play their normal way, they sit deep and try and keep it respectable, and once they inevitably concede, they're stuffed and have to open up to try and get back in the game, or accept getting beat.  It feels like that attitude is ingrained in all teams, and definitely not just in games we play against them.

 

The media has a lot more impact than just match reports.  We don't even have to be near them in the table to see the media reports of supposed transfer interest of our top players before we play them, in a thinly veiled (and quite frankly moronic) attempt to unsettle us.  It's not even just things like that, if one of their players commits a terrible foul, it is never given a second glance, and never even makes an airing on Sportscene, but if a non OF player so much as farts in the general direction of one of theirs, it starts a damned witchhunt in the papers and reports.  It happens time, and time again.  Think of the difference in reaction to the Aribo challenge versus us, and the Porteous challenge versus Rangers.  Both were horrific, but one was instantly vilified, and the other... Well.

 

Old Firm players get refereed differently, and teams are treated differently with what they are allowed to say or do before things like bans start getting thrown around.  Managers find themselves in the stands for a couple of games for daring to point out things that actually happened, but it doesn't fit the Green and Blue narrative. 

 

Everything is geared around treating those two like Billy Big Baws, and until that changes, I honestly don't see us having any chance of being allowed to get near the top.  The dodgy decisions and yellow cards to get top players banned for a couple of games will come out in full force if anyone manages a really good run.  Sure, we might get one over on them now and again, but if we start to threaten the Status Quo more regularly and consistently, it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner. 


Beautiful summary. I couldn’t have put it better. The only thing missing is that it is incredibly difficult for a club like ours to build a successful team. To do so usually takes some years of stability, and the moment a non-OF team in the SPL has two decent seasons, it gets gutted, with the OF at the front of the queue. Look what happened post-98.

 

My hope was that now that we are debt-free and fan-owned, and we have the FoH income stream, that we might be able to avoid this happening, and indeed we may be less vulnerable to players being sold because the bank insists. But if we live within our means, which we must, then it means we will struggle to re-sign our best players, because their agents will tell them to see out their contracts and get a big payday from the English Championship, or one of the OF.

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11 hours ago, tian447 said:

You're forgetting the fact that we don't just have to beat Celtic and Rangers.  Everything in this county is set up to favour those of a Glasgow persuasion, from the media, to the mentality of other teams, to the very set up of the leagues. 

 

Teams are taught to fear them and respect them. A point is something that might be taken or stolen from them, but never earned and deserved.  They come to town, and teams shut up shop before the game even kicks off, in an attempt to keep the score down instead of having a go. The odd results sneak past, but it's usually pretty much the same thing any time a team plays the Old Firm: they don't play their normal way, they sit deep and try and keep it respectable, and once they inevitably concede, they're stuffed and have to open up to try and get back in the game, or accept getting beat.  It feels like that attitude is ingrained in all teams, and definitely not just in games we play against them.

 

The media has a lot more impact than just match reports.  We don't even have to be near them in the table to see the media reports of supposed transfer interest of our top players before we play them, in a thinly veiled (and quite frankly moronic) attempt to unsettle us.  It's not even just things like that, if one of their players commits a terrible foul, it is never given a second glance, and never even makes an airing on Sportscene, but if a non OF player so much as farts in the general direction of one of theirs, it starts a damned witchhunt in the papers and reports.  It happens time, and time again.  Think of the difference in reaction to the Aribo challenge versus us, and the Porteous challenge versus Rangers.  Both were horrific, but one was instantly vilified, and the other... Well.

 

Old Firm players get refereed differently, and teams are treated differently with what they are allowed to say or do before things like bans start getting thrown around.  Managers find themselves in the stands for a couple of games for daring to point out things that actually happened, but it doesn't fit the Green and Blue narrative. 

 

Everything is geared around treating those two like Billy Big Baws, and until that changes, I honestly don't see us having any chance of being allowed to get near the top.  The dodgy decisions and yellow cards to get top players banned for a couple of games will come out in full force if anyone manages a really good run.  Sure, we might get one over on them now and again, but if we start to threaten the Status Quo more regularly and consistently, it will be dealt with in the appropriate manner. 

 

:greatpost:

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ToqueJambo
8 hours ago, Boris said:

We can moan about the OF bias and use it as an excuse, but until we stop dropping points away at Ross County, at home to Dundee, Aberdeen, Hibs, lose away games at Motherwell, then there's no danger we will win the league, let alone split the OF.

To beat them we have to be like them. Ruthless for the whole length of the game.

 

So basically we have to break the habit of a lifetime?

 

There's a reason the OF are more consistent and tend to pull away in the second half of the season. Injuries and suspensions and fatigue don't hit them nearly so hard as other teams because they have 10 times the money of other teams to enable them to always have a squad capable of coping with missing key players and the challenges of a long season. They trend not to lose important players to other clubs at key moments in the season, unless they want them to leave. And if they do leave they get whopping fees, 5 times what non OF clubs would get for players with similar potential. Give Neilson another 10-20m to upgrade all our key positions and have good reserves and we'd be a lot closer. Really the OF should be more points ahead every season than they usually are.

 

Even when we do have money, like 2005/06, we saw the lengths Scottish football went to to maintain the status quo.

 

It also has to be said that some our fans need to stop banging on about style of football and booing narrow or hard-fought wins against smaller teams, and when we get a manager like Neilson who is very good at picking up points and having us in and about the top 2-3 positions most of the time they need to recognise that as a very good thing. The OF win ugly and narrowly many times during a typical season, and usually lose a couple too, always against teams they should beat comfortably given the gulf in resources.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

So basically we have to break the habit of a lifetime?

Pretty much!

 

7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

There's a reason the OF are more consistent and tend to pull away in the second half of the season. Injuries and suspensions and fatigue don't hit them nearly so hard as other teams because they have 10 times the money of other teams to enable them to always have a squad capable of coping with missing key players and the challenges of a long season. They trend not to lose important players to other clubs at key moments in the season, unless they want them to leave. And if they do leave they get whopping fees, 5 times what non OF clubs would get for players with similar potential. Give Neilson another 10-20m to upgrade all our key positions and have good reserves and we'd be a lot closer. Really the OF should be more points ahead every season than they usually are.

 

Not arguing against that.

 

7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Even when we do have money, like 2005/06, we saw the lengths Scottish football went to to maintain the status quo.

 

Hmmm...as I've said, blaming it on dodgy referees is the easy excuse. Listen, not saying they don't play any part, but 85/86 and 97/98 don't really recall anything as dodgy as the Takis incident.  05/06 saw us (Vlad) shoot ourselves in the foot more than anything.

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ToqueJambo
10 minutes ago, Boris said:

Pretty much!

 

 

Not arguing against that.

 

 

Hmmm...as I've said, blaming it on dodgy referees is the easy excuse. Listen, not saying they don't play any part, but 85/86 and 97/98 don't really recall anything as dodgy as the Takis incident.  05/06 saw us (Vlad) shoot ourselves in the foot more than anything.

 

I was more meaning the press and blazers as well as officials.

 

I've seen us get in between the OF four times in the top league and finish above Rangers in another league once. It's only ever happened when the financial gap has been a lot less than it is now or has been most of the last 30 odd years, including the last time in 05/06 so that's the key thing, especially if we want to do it consistently rather than a great one-off season. Everyone brings up Leicester but they still spent a fortune to win the EPL and continued spending to establish themselves as a top side. They'll still never be near the title ever again though.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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25 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I was more meaning the press and blazers as well as officials.

 

I've seen us get in between the OF four times in the top league and finish above Rangers in another league once. It's only ever happened when the financial gap has been a lot less than it is now or has been most of the last 30 odd years, including the last time in 05/06 so that's the key thing, especially if we want to do it consistently rather than a great one-off season. Everyone brings up Leicester but they still spent a fortune to win the EPL and continued spending to establish themselves as a top side. They'll still never be near the title ever again though.

It's pretty obvious the way the cards are stacked in Scottish football, always has been the case.

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Smith's right boot
4 hours ago, Cruyff said:

We can't do it this season but we aren't miles away either. We've put I'm good performances v the OF and have had our chances in those games. We lack a wee bit of quality in forward areas that would have had us very close to them imo. The rest of our team is pretty solid. 

 

Aye and no. 

 

We'll be lucky to be within 25 points of whoever is champions. 

 

You need 90 points ( give or take) in general to be champions, we are miles of that consistency. 

 

For us or any other team to win the league would mean that the OF have failed miserably, for both them to have poor seasons at the same time is unlikely. 

 

Even to split them you'd need around  80 points if one of them has a poorer season. 

 

It's a massive ask. 

 

Not impossible, if we can get third a few times and in European group stages we can then maybe seriously threaten. 

Before then it's almost impossible. 

Edited by Smith's right boot
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