Former concentration camp guard on trial

[Jambo-Jimbo]

13 hours ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Not sure how the whole things worked with the Germans but the Luftwaffe certainly ran POW camps, Great Escape was about a Luftwaffe camp.

 

PS, I worked in a West German factory in the late 80s that was owned by an ex SS officer, he still carried a handgun for whatever reason.

 

I didn't mention P.O.W. camps because they were completely different from concentration/death camps, and as @Maple Leafsaid, captured service personal were usually sent to corresponding P.O.W. camps overseen by either the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine (Navy), the concentration/death camps were run by the SS.   I assumed everyone knew that.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 

I think the actual POW camps were a different thing to the , Belsen types. The Pow camps a far as I recall were run by the services they were guarding i.e Luftwaffe for Air force and German army for others. The Jews were in camps as were many Poles and other Slav, Serb nationals whom Hitler merely saw as lesser mortals. The average German soldier was just like our own men, they were given a job to do for their Country, and done it to the best of their ability. I remember German prisoners in the Mid Calder area working on the farms and the people they worked with or associated with thought they were nice young guys. The Italians were in the camp at Duddingston and wandered about the Southside like they were locals , other than the prison uniform they wore with the patches sewn on to it telling their category. The war was a strange experience, you hated a nation but found the nationals you met were just like ourselves.

 

And this is the difference between your average German soldier and members of the SS, who were anything but your average squaddie.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

13 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Was it not supposed to be the Bush family? I’ve read some stuff…

Henry Ford a big contributor I think too. 
Of Ford motors. 

 

Yip, that was in a good documentary on Sky not that long ago, which was basically charting who financed the Nazi's rise to power, and Henry Ford's name was one name mentioned.  However many of the early backers never thought that their money was going to end up creating the abomination that the Nazi's were to become.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

13 hours ago, Jeffros Furios said:

Due to the work I used to do with Israeli tourists I was told a few horror stories regarding thier families .

 

It doesn't matter what age these nazis are they must be held accountable .

 

 

 

Especially the SS.

[Governor Tarkin]

3 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

My grandad was POW of the Japanese. I can’t even begin to imagine the atrocities. However, he had a very similar view to the person you describe. 
 

My mum, to this day, has issues with the Japanese. Not in like a hatred/racist way but essentially wants nothing to do with Japanese in anyway.

 

My dad wanted to go to Japan for a holiday. My mum refused point blank, saying she couldn’t go to that country after what they did to her dad. She even had a long chat with her brother about the issue, I assume to rationalise it all. She still came to the same conclusion. 
 

The truth is I can’t and never will be able to, thankfully, understand. I wouldn’t even say it was hatred with my mum it’s more a fear. 

 

Old boy that lived downstairs from us when I was a kid had been a prisoner of the Japanese. He only had half a stomach left.

Absolutely despised them. Said they were inhumanly wicked.

 

1 hour ago, SectionDJambo said:

looked around him and exclaimed, "Ah, ze Pentland Hills!".

 

Nice bit of light hearted casual racism there. I like it, although If you'd tried it with a Japanese L and R you'd have been on a warning.

[Governor Tarkin]

15 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And this is the difference between your average German soldier and members of the SS, who were anything but your average squaddie.

 

One of my Grandad's  mates was a former German POW. Married a local lassie at the end of the war and lived out his days in Scotchland.

Strangely, he used to pal about with an ex Polish soldier who'd come back to Scotland after the war too. They'd been born and brought up in towns barely a couple of miles apart.

A bunch of young men with everything in common pitted against each other by murderous ideological tyrants. War itself is a crime against humanity. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

13 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Old boy that lived downstairs from us when I was a kid had been a prisoner of the Japanese. He only had half a stomach left.

Absolutely despised them. Said they were inhumanly wicked.

 

 

Yip, knew one as well, and he also hated the Japanese with an absolute passion.

 

7 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

One of my Grandad's  mates was a former German POW. Married a local lassie at the end of the war and lived out his days in Scotchland.

Strangely, he used to pal about with an ex Polish soldier who'd come back to Scotland after the war too. They'd been born and brought up in towns barely a couple of miles apart.

A bunch of young men with everything in common pitted against each other by murderous ideological tyrants. War itself is a crime against humanity. 

 

An old Polish guy used to live over the road from me, got to know him quite well, usual story, fled Poland in 1939, 17 I think he was, joined the Polish army in the UK, fought in Italy etc.  He didn't mind your average normal German, he could tolerate them, but he absolutely hated the Russians, only ever went back to Poland in the 1990's after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Tazio]

27 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

An old Polish guy used to live over the road from me, got to know him quite well, usual story, fled Poland in 1939, 17 I think he was, joined the Polish army in the UK, fought in Italy etc.  He didn't mind your average normal German, he could tolerate them, but he absolutely hated the Russians, only ever went back to Poland in the 1990's after the fall of the Soviet Union.

I remember when I was a kid my uncle who worked at Bilston Glen colliery telling me they used to try and keep the Polish miners out the way when a Russian trade delegation visited. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, Tazio said:

I remember when I was a kid my uncle who worked at Bilston Glen colliery telling me they used to try and keep the Polish miners out the way when a Russian trade delegation visited. 

 

Not the best of buddies the Poles & Russians.

 

Centuries old hatred between them, I think.

[CF11JamTart]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

And this is the difference between your average German soldier and members of the SS, who were anything but your average squaddie.

And there's a view that when it was inevitable that Germany were losing the war and Russia was moving towards Berlin, the SS were ordering the Army to the Eastern front to inevitably get slaughtered. But it would buy the SS some time to escape (e.g. to Argentina via Rome) or change identifies. 

 

They were absolutely not your average squaddie and a lot of tension between SS and Army.

[felix]

4 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Pretty much the way I see it, it was a stand out crime in human history. Conducted by a highly advanced nation on an industrial scale using all the resources of Germany and others.

As for the guard I have heard of the story but know nothing of him aside form his age and the fact he was SS.

Millions of people died of starvation, disease, exhaustion from forced labour and other causes, as well as through medical experiments and systematic SS extermination operations including shootings, hangings and gassing.

This crime must always get special attention.

 

No it shouldn't . There's equally heinous crimes & genocides conveniently forgotten.

Shouldn't really be categories of importance in areas like this. But of course, there is.

 

[SectionDJambo]

3 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Old boy that lived downstairs from us when I was a kid had been a prisoner of the Japanese. He only had half a stomach left.

Absolutely despised them. Said they were inhumanly wicked.

 

 

Nice bit of light hearted casual racism there. I like it, although If you'd tried it with a Japanese L and R you'd have been on a warning.

I'm half German. I think I'm  safe enough. 

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Their squaddies were also off their tits on crystal meth and could fight non stop for days on end feeling like they were invincible.

 

Basically an army of highly trained and disciplined, well armed, well coordinated, well supported, berserkers.

 

Yip. 

I saw that in a documentary about the Blitzkrieg ethos and why it was so effective.  

As you say they were ripped oot their nuts on Pervitin. 

[Tazio]

45 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yip. 

I saw that in a documentary about the Blitzkrieg ethos and why it was so effective.  

As you say they were ripped oot their nuts on Pervitin. 

As were allied troops. 

[Cade]

Allied troops were issued with amphetamines in their ration packs, to be opened only on the orders of their commanding officer.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

37 minutes ago, Tazio said:

As were allied troops. 

 

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

Allied troops were issued with amphetamines in their ration packs, to be opened only on the orders of their commanding officer.

 

I'd heard they joined the party a bit late.

 

The Blitzkrieg through the low countries and into France was phenomenal.

Other than a sudden inexplicable stop by the Germans they'd have annihilated the BEF at Dunkerque.

 

It must be good shit to keep you on the metal for 6 weeks solid.

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

One of my Grandad's  mates was a former German POW. Married a local lassie at the end of the war and lived out his days in Scotchland.

Strangely, he used to pal about with an ex Polish soldier who'd come back to Scotland after the war too. They'd been born and brought up in towns barely a couple of miles apart.

A bunch of young men with everything in common pitted against each other by murderous ideological tyrants. War itself is a crime against humanity. 

 

Jaysus, GT, a redraft there and you could have said that a bayonet is a weapon with a worker at both ends.

[Cade]

Opium and morphine both in pill form and styrettes was common even before WW1.

In WW1 the British Army issued cocaine pills under the brand name "forced march".

 

Nazi germany halted mass production and supply of amphetamines to troops as early as 1941.

The allies kept on with issuing it.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Cade

[JFK-1]

8 hours ago, felix said:

 

No it shouldn't . There's equally heinous crimes & genocides conveniently forgotten.

Shouldn't really be categories of importance in areas like this. But of course, there is.

 

 

And there are categories, levels if you like, for very good reason. There is nothing equally heinous to what they did using the entire scientific and industrial resources of a top level nation.

What they did is the gold standard of atrocities so to speak and will always get special attention for that very reason. Nothing is "conveniently forgotten"

Most mass atrocities such as this are committed during a relatively brief rampage. Such as the Nanjing massacre when Japanese soldiers slaughtered up to 300,000 Chinese men women and children inside about 6 weeks.

These rampages in the heat of war are entirely different from the calculated planning and execution of the Nazi crime. 

 

Quote

On January 20, 1942, 15 high-ranking Nazi Party and German government officials gathered at a villa in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee to discuss and coordinate the implementation of what they called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question."

The mass murder of the Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators required the coordination and cooperation of governmental agencies throughout Axis-controlled Europe.

The Wannsee Conference was a high-level meeting of German officials to discuss and implement the so-called “Final Solution of the Jewish Question” (mass killing).

The SS envisioned that some 11 million Jews, some of them not living on German-controlled territory, would be eradicated as part of the Nazi program.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/wannsee-conference-and-the-final-solution

 
This was on an unimaginable level which puts it into a category all on it's own. That wont change. Not now not in a thousand years from now unless somebody were to carry out a similar but even more successful such plan during the intervening time.

[felix]

2 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

And there are categories, levels if you like, for very good reason. There is nothing equally heinous to what they did using the entire scientific and industrial resources of a top level nation.

What they did is the gold standard of atrocities so to speak and will always get special attention for that very reason. Nothing is "conveniently forgotten"

Most mass atrocities such as this are committed during a relatively brief rampage. Such as the Nanjing massacre when Japanese soldiers slaughtered up to 300,000 Chinese men women and children inside about 6 weeks.

These rampages in the heat of war are entirely different from the calculated planning and execution of the Nazi crime. 

 

 
This was on an unimaginable level which puts it into a category all on it's own. That wont change. Not now not in a thousand years from now unless somebody were to carry out a similar but even more successful such plan during the intervening time.

Gold standard  - FFS .

Of course there's equal or worse levels of atrocity .

As for the 11 million  jews quoted - they don't have a monopoly on atrocity . You know that  ..and you know the numbers involved ?

[JFK-1]

On 09/10/2021 at 19:36, felix said:

Gold standard  - FFS .

Of course there's equal or worse levels of atrocity .

 

 

Give me an example.

[Jeffros Furios]

5 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Give me an example.

Mao in China was responsible for upwards of 30 million deaths 

 

And I think the poster was insinuating that Gold Standard was maybe a bit crass .

[jack D and coke]

On 09/10/2021 at 16:17, The Mighty Thor said:

 

I'd heard they joined the party a bit late.

 

The Blitzkrieg through the low countries and into France was phenomenal.

Other than a sudden inexplicable stop by the Germans they'd have annihilated the BEF at Dunkerque.

 

It must be good shit to keep you on the metal for 6 weeks solid.

Imagine being in charge of weapons after 6 weeks of taking that gear? 
Bloody hell…

The paranoia would be truly off the scale…

No wonder they committed atrocities. 

 

[jack D and coke]

On 09/10/2021 at 18:18, Cade said:

Opium and morphine both in pill form and styrettes was common even before WW1.

In WW1 the British Army issued cocaine pills under the brand name "forced march".

 

Nazi germany halted mass production and supply of amphetamines to troops as early as 1941.

The allies kept on with issuing it.

 

 

Every day is a school day as they say. 
Id always thought speed was a Nazi invention for their troops. 

[Peakybunnet]

My Grandad was senior NCO in a POW camp in Southern Poland. He was a Sgt in the Black Watch and was captured at St Valerie. 

 

The Germans commended him on his service before he evacuated to Germany to escape the Soviets. 

 

He used to manage the sporting activities and loved his boxing. Here are some pics taken in the camp.

 

He said the Germans never mistreated them. 

 

In his post war interview he was questioned about any possible collaboration. 

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Peakybunnet said:

My Grandad was senior NCO in a POW camp in Southern Poland. He was a Sgt in the Black Watch and was captured at St Valerie. 

 

The Germans commended him on his service before he evacuated to Germany to escape the Soviets. 

 

He used to manage the sporting activities and loved his boxing. Here are some pics taken in the camp.

 

He said the Germans never mistreated them. 

 

In his post war interview he was questioned about any possible collaboration. 

 

 

👍👍👍

[felix]

9 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

 

Give me an example.

Examples of levels of atrocity ? -  Cololnial treatment of Boers, Indians or Kenyans.  Dropping an atomic bomb on innocent civilians. Any conflict brings out atrocity.

 

Examples of scale ? - 10 million Congolese for  European ivory & rubber. Racial genocide of 10 million native Americans, 8 million Hispanic Americans or deporting 20 million Africans to death/slavery.

 

The Holocaust's been politicised & exploited in many ways. One angle is to view it as the worst crime in history. The gold standard you might say.  Often easier to deplore crimes of others to divert gaze from what you don't want to see.   Holocaust memorials continue to rise, whilst specialist study's avaiable in unis throughout most US states. Monuments, courses  or museums to any of the above atrocities, remain fairly sparse by comparison.  

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, felix said:

Examples of levels of atrocity ? -  Cololnial treatment of Boers, Indians or Kenyans.  Dropping an atomic bomb on innocent civilians. Any conflict brings out atrocity.

 

Examples of scale ? - 10 million Congolese for  European ivory & rubber. Racial genocide of 10 million native Americans, 8 million Hispanic Americans or deporting 20 million Africans to death/slavery.

 

The Holocaust's been politicised & exploited in many ways. One angle is to view it as the worst crime in history. The gold standard you might say.  Often easier to deplore crimes of others to divert gaze from what you don't want to see.   Holocaust memorials continue to rise, whilst specialist study's avaiable in unis throughout most US states. Monuments, courses  or museums to any of the above atrocities, remain fairly sparse by comparison.  

 

 Very well

said . Excellent posting 

[AlphonseCapone]

On 08/10/2021 at 14:55, JamesM48 said:

Only have to look at today’s world to see how people can be coerced and controlled by Govts to do what they want . It’s nothing new . These people were brain washed and also frightened too . They had no choice . If they made the moral choice of not participating in being guards , secretaries etc they would have been killed . Simple as that . And it would still happen today 

 

Not sure the bolded is a sentence appropriate to a thread like this. Nothing is as simple as it seems and I'm always wary when folk think otherwise. 

 

On 08/10/2021 at 16:25, Japan Jambo said:

 

Interesting perspective. Is there not a marked difference by a young squaddie making a mistake when in fear for his own life facing an angry mob say in January 1972 or ignoring and facilitating the daily processing and slaughter of passive civilians over a number of years?

 

 

Very, very telling descriptions you use here. Says a lot about your own personal views/bias. 

 

On 08/10/2021 at 21:30, Maple Leaf said:

 

In 1939, Germany had the most powerful army and air force the world had ever seen.  In addition, their coordination of air support, artillery, fast tanks, and infantry was second to none. Their officers and NCOs were better trained than their opponents.  Put all that together with a sense of commitment in their personnel and you get Blitzkrieg, a new and successful way to win battles quickly.  For the first two years of the war no one could stop them.

 

They also got some experience using their new toys during the Spanish civil war I believe. 

 

On 08/10/2021 at 21:53, sadj said:

One of my pet peeves is our schooling teaches you what they want you to know not what the truth is sadly.

 

I don't think anyone every knows what the truth is when it comes to history, because of conscious and unconscious bias. 

[sadj]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Not sure the bolded is a sentence appropriate to a thread like this. Nothing is as simple as it seems and I'm always wary when folk think otherwise. 

 

 

Very, very telling descriptions you use here. Says a lot about your own personal views/bias. 

 

 

They also got some experience using their new toys during the Spanish civil war I believe. 

 

 

I don't think anyone every knows what the truth is when it comes to history, because of conscious and unconscious bias. 

Probably a very fair point , what is taught is what the chosen national history is and that becomes the accepted history. One of the positives of social media is the fact you can now do deeper research yourself on subjects

[John Findlay]

History is no different to nowadays in that there is one side's truth, the other side's truth, and THE truth.

Edited October 11, 2021 by John Findlay

[JFK-1]

On 11/10/2021 at 08:19, felix said:

Examples of levels of atrocity? -  Cololnial treatment of Boers, Indians or Kenyans.  Dropping an atomic bomb on innocent civilians. Any conflict brings out atrocity.

What we're talking about in terms of Nazi Germany is the entire scientific and technical resources of a highly advanced nation being committed to a genocide.

They built mass murder factories where they dispatched millions in a conveyor belt like fashion. And if their efforts hadn't been hindered, if they had won the war, they would have accounted for countless millions more in eastern Europe.

There has never been anything else like it in the modern era.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

What we're talking about in terms of Nazi Germany is the entire scientific and technical resources of a highly advanced nation being committed to a genocide.

They built mass murder factories where they dispatched millions in a conveyor belt like fashion. And if their efforts hadn't been hindered, if they had won the war, they would have accounted for countless millions more in eastern Europe.

There has never been anything else like it in the modern era.

 

If they had won the war, then after there were no more Jews, they would have just turned on someone else, eventually it would have been if you didn't have some Germanic DNA in you.................then off to a camp you'd go.

[XB52]

10 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

If they had won the war, then after there were no more Jews, they would have just turned on someone else, eventually it would have been if you didn't have some Germanic DNA in you.................then off to a camp you'd go.

That was their whole point. All non Aryan people were rounded up. If you weren't pure blooded Germans you were out. That included gays as they weren't considered real Germans either. 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, XB52 said:

That was their whole point. All non Aryan people were rounded up. If you weren't pure blooded Germans you were out. That included gays as they weren't considered real Germans either. 

 

 

Doh, of course it was.

 

That's what I get for not having something to eat first thing.

[felix]

5 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

What we're talking about in terms of Nazi Germany is the entire scientific and technical resources of a highly advanced nation being committed to a genocide.

They built mass murder factories where they dispatched millions in a conveyor belt like fashion. And if their efforts hadn't been hindered, if they had won the war, they would have accounted for countless millions more in eastern Europe.

There has never been anything else like it in the modern era.

Your take on history is obviously different to mine.

You ever been to one of the mass murder factories they built ?

[Ray Gin]

1 hour ago, felix said:

Your take on history is obviously different to mine.

You ever been to one of the mass murder factories they built ?

 

I have. It was grim.

 

[Morgan]

Will this thread be Russian targeted in a few years time?

 

Bloody well should be.

[Cade]

101 year old handed a 5 year jail term this week.

 

 

 

 

[Cade]

Yes, some crimes are so bad that statute of limitations doesn't exist for them.

Yes, justice should be sought for those crimes.

But prosecuting 100-year-olds because they were simply a guard at a camp and didn't actually personally kill anyone? Is that justice or is that vengeance?

Are we going to be dragging up 100 year old Russian troopers to the dock in 80 years time?

The UK government is trying to halt all prosecutions of its "brave boys" for various war crimes. Pick the bones out of that.

[Tazio]

14 minutes ago, Cade said:

Yes, some crimes are so bad that statute of limitations doesn't exist for them.

Yes, justice should be sought for those crimes.

But prosecuting 100-year-olds because they were simply a guard at a camp and didn't actually personally kill anyone? Is that justice or is that vengeance?

Are we going to be dragging up 100 year old Russian troopers to the dock in 80 years time?

The UK government is trying to halt all prosecutions of its "brave boys" for various war crimes. Pick the bones out of that.

Two words. 
My Lai. 
Hundreds of people massacred. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

41 minutes ago, Cade said:

Yes, some crimes are so bad that statute of limitations doesn't exist for them.

Yes, justice should be sought for those crimes.

But prosecuting 100-year-olds because they were simply a guard at a camp and didn't actually personally kill anyone? Is that justice or is that vengeance?

Are we going to be dragging up 100 year old Russian troopers to the dock in 80 years time?

The UK government is trying to halt all prosecutions of its "brave boys" for various war crimes. Pick the bones out of that.

They are just show trials . 

[Cade]

27 minutes ago, Tazio said:

Two words. 
My Lai. 
Hundreds of people massacred. 

Correct.

Double standards.

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, Morgan said:

Will this thread be Russian targeted in a few years time?

 

Bloody well should be.

Agreed. And Blair and Bush, what about them?

[John Gentleman]

On 10/10/2021 at 01:38, Cade said:

Allied troops were issued with amphetamines in their ration packs, to be opened only on the orders of their commanding officer.

 

The Wehrmacht depended on Pervitin.