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Former concentration camp guard on trial


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jack D and coke
2 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

It's way easier to understand once you've read up on who was bankrolling them and to what extent. 

Is that not one of these myths? I’d love to read what you’ve read though. 

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The Hogfather
Just now, jack D and coke said:

Russia won the war really. 

 

Hitler made two massive errors in judgement that cost Germany the war. One was Operation Barbarossa and the other was declaring war on America after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. Had he left that well alone, it's entirely likely the US wouldn't have entered the European theatre. They wanted nothing to do with a European conflict, despite what Roosevelt felt.

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jack D and coke
15 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

The arrogance of power then?

Thought he could do anything without adverse consequences?

Went power crazy yeah maybe. 
These kind of people fascinate me. Insane as **** but obviously brilliant at the same time.
How can you possibly be in charge of something so enormous….how can you create that? 

Edited by jack D and coke
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jack D and coke
2 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

Hitler made two massive errors in judgement that cost Germany the war. One was Operation Barbarossa and the other was declaring war on America after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. Had he left that well alone, it's entirely likely the US wouldn't have entered the European theatre. They wanted nothing to do with a European conflict, despite what Roosevelt felt.

Yeah they wanted nowt to do with it. 
Our best pals.

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JudyJudyJudy
12 minutes ago, Nunya Business said:

 

The Germans never invaded Italy.

True . My mistake . An error . They would have though of Mussolini didn’t side with them I would guess 

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Don't know a huge amount about the subject but I found the old bbc series 'Nazis: a warning from history' fascinating.  You see colour tv interviews with everyday germans who were alive at the time.  Many of them seemed to find it incredible that the atrocities could happen, and I think some had the view that a lot of good people simply didn't fight against the movement as they should have.

 

Intersting discussion. In relative terms, at least he won't be too gutted if he gets life imprisonment!

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JudyJudyJudy
14 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

It's way easier to understand once you've read up on who was bankrolling them and to what extent. 

I’ll need to educate myself about that issue . It fascinates me really of all the war issues . Also why people do easily bought into it all . From my higher history we did study “ the weimer republic “ and the road to war but it wasn’t extensive . I do know the Germans felt angry after world war after the Treaty of Versailles settlement which was punitive and harsh to them . Therefore felt aggrieved and humiliated and wanted revenge and to regain their status as a world power . Hitler Cleverly capitalised on this collective grievance  and used it to his advantage . 

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JudyJudyJudy
3 minutes ago, Dia Liom said:

Don't know a huge amount about the subject but I found the old bbc series 'Nazis: a warning from history' fascinating.  You see colour tv interviews with everyday germans who were alive at the time.  Many of them seemed to find it incredible that the atrocities could happen, and I think some had the view that a lot of good people simply didn't fight against the movement as they should have.

 

Intersting discussion. In relative terms, at least he won't be too gutted if he gets life imprisonment!

Might be the shortest life sentence ever . 

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  • Kalamazoo Jambo changed the title to Former concentration camp guard on trial
28 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I still can’t understand how they managed to invade so many countries and take over them like France Italy Poland ? Maybe some one knows That answer ?

 

In 1939, Germany had the most powerful army and air force the world had ever seen.  In addition, their coordination of air support, artillery, fast tanks, and infantry was second to none. Their officers and NCOs were better trained than their opponents.  Put all that together with a sense of commitment in their personnel and you get Blitzkrieg, a new and successful way to win battles quickly.  For the first two years of the war no one could stop them.

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Savage Vince
33 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Is that not one of these myths? I’d love to read what you’ve read though. 

 

Maybe. However the contribution made by American capitalism/Wall Street towards German's military capabilities was nothing short of phenomenal. 

Edited by Savage Vince
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jack D and coke
2 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

Maybe. However the contribution made by American capitalism/Wall Street towards German's military capabilities was nothing short of phenomenal. 

Was it not supposed to be the Bush family? I’ve read some stuff…

Henry Ford a big contributor I think too. 
Of Ford motors. 

Edited by jack D and coke
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JudyJudyJudy
3 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

In 1939, Germany had the most powerful army and air force the world had ever seen.  In addition, their coordination of air support, artillery, fast tanks, and infantry was second to none. Their officers and NCOs were better trained than their opponents.  Put all that together with a sense of commitment in their personnel and you get Blitzkrieg, a new and successful way to win battles quickly.  For the first two years of the war no one could stop them.

I thought this as much .  And ofcourse a “charismatic “ leader who fed into the nations psyche. Incredible to think he wasn’t even German 

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jack D and coke
5 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I thought this as much .  And ofcourse a “charismatic “ leader who fed into the nations psyche. Incredible to think he wasn’t even German 

Germania though. I was blown away to find out Hearts are older than Germany. 

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Savage Vince
6 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Was it not supposed to be the Bush family? I’ve read some stuff…

Henry Ford a big contributor I think too. 
Of Ford motors. 

 

I think you can go down the rabbit hole where the Bush family are concerned. George Snr is alleged to have been involved in all sorts of dodgy goings on, including the assassination of JFK. 

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1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

I think I read somewhere too that people of German descent make up the majority of Americans. 

 

The Americans of German descent, and German immigrants to the USA, pushed the "America First" mantra very hard, trying to keep America out of the war.  Champion among these was Charles Lindbergh.  Many people in the Irish community in the USA felt the same.  Their champion was Joe Kennedy, father of JFK.

 

And it is well known that many Americans from the German community went back and fought in the German army.  

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jack D and coke
Just now, Savage Vince said:

 

I think you can go down the rabbit hole where the Bush family are concerned. George Snr is alleged to have been involved in all sorts of dodgy goings on, including the assassination of JFK. 

Aye very true man, that’s why I take all these things with a pinch of salt these days. 
There was a day I read that stuff regardless of who wrote it and thought it gospel.

Will we ever know? I doubt it. 

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

The Americans of German descent, and German immigrants to the USA, pushed the "America First" mantra very hard, trying to keep America out of the war.  Champion among these was Charles Lindbergh.  Many people in the Irish community in the USA felt the same.  Their champion was Joe Kennedy, father of JFK.

 

And it is well known that many Americans from the German community went back and fought in the German army.  

Ok. Interesting👍🏼

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Doctor FinnBarr
8 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

The SS were fanatical Nazi's, thugs and killers, unlike your ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers who were largely just following orders, the SS on the other hand were a whole different kettle of fish entirely, rarely if ever they were coerced or just following orders, especially when Jews were concerned, no they were front and centre when it came to killing Jews, Gypsies, Roma, Gay's, Russians/Slav's and anybody else the Nazi state wanted rid off, the job was usually given to the SS. 

 

It was the SS who were put in charge of the concentration/death camps, not the Wehrmacht or the Luftwaffe but the SS, and of course there was a reason for that. 

 

An SS concentration camp guard, especially one who was a guard for 3 years is most certainly going to have witnessed/been involved in the killings that took place in the camp over that 3 year period, therefore imo it is right that they are brought in front of the courts to answer for potential crimes, even 80 years after the event.

 

Not sure how the whole things worked with the Germans but the Luftwaffe certainly ran POW camps, Great Escape was about a Luftwaffe camp.

 

PS, I worked in a West German factory in the late 80s that was owned by an ex SS officer, he still carried a handgun for whatever reason.

Edited by FinnBarr Saunders
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Savage Vince
4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Aye very true man, that’s why I take all these things with a pinch of salt these days. 
There was a day I read that stuff regardless of who wrote it and thought it gospel.

Will we ever know? I doubt it. 

 

Aye, I was the same. 

 

I dated a Greek girl for a year and work with a few Spanish lads and these folk aren't taught the exact same as what we are. It's interesting listening to their world view on such matters. 

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Just now, Savage Vince said:

 

Aye, I was the same. 

 

I dated a Greek girl for a year and work with a few Spanish lads and these folk aren't taught the exact same as what we are. It's interesting listening to their world view on such matters. 


One of my pet peeves is our schooling teaches you what they want you to know not what the truth is sadly.

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Savage Vince
Just now, sadj said:


One of my pet peeves is our schooling teaches you what they want you to know not what the truth is sadly.

 

Agreed. As Jack D posted, we'll likely never know what we are not meant to. 

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6 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

I think you can go down the rabbit hole where the Bush family are concerned. George Snr is alleged to have been involved in all sorts of dodgy goings on, including the assassination of JFK. 

 

I haven't heard about Bush's alleged involvement in the Kennedy killing, although nothing about Texas politics should surprise me.  Texas oilmen have always had a disproportionate influence in American politics and oilman Lyndon Johnson conveniently got the top job in the USA after Kennedy was killed. 

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jack D and coke
Just now, sadj said:


One of my pet peeves is our schooling teaches you what they want you to know not what the truth is sadly.

A good point but what is the truth? If you think about it it’s just your confirmation bias at the end of the day. 
We could watch the same game of football for example and not see it anything like the same. Then who writes the article? 

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4 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Not sure how the whole things worked with the Germans but the Luftwaffe certainly ran POW camps, Great Escape was about a Luftwaffe camp.

 

The Luftwaffe ran POW camps for captured airmen, the German army ran the POW camps for captured soldiers, and the German Navy ran the POW camps for captured sailors.

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Doctor FinnBarr
2 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

The Luftwaffe ran POW camps for captured airmen, the German army ran the POW camps for captured soldiers, and the German Navy ran the POW camps for captured sailors.

 

That makes sense.

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Savage Vince
4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

A good point but what is the truth? If you think about it it’s just your confirmation bias at the end of the day. 
We could watch the same game of football for example and not see it anything like the same. Then who writes the article? 

 

We are definitely in the Age of Bullshit now. The value of truth/the truth is less than zero. Opinions are far more important now. 🙄

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Jeffros Furios

Due to the work I used to do with Israeli tourists I was told a few horror stories regarding thier families .

 

It doesn't matter what age these nazis are they must be held accountable .

 

 

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jack D and coke
2 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

We are definitely in the Age of Bullshit now. The value of truth/the truth is less than zero. Opinions are far more important now. 🙄

Misinformation, it’s just nuts. 
You worry how bad it might get. I’ve had some very weird conversations with good friends the last 18 months. 

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JudyJudyJudy

I recall when I visited my German “ pen pal “ ( blast from the past ) her father was almost in tears one night apologising to me about the Second World War and Germany’s Involvement . It was all a bit heavy really . I was just there to have a good time . I was 17!

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Savage Vince
4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Misinformation, it’s just nuts. 
You worry how bad it might get. I’ve had some very weird conversations with good friends the last 18 months. 

 

I agree. We are instructed to respect everything except the truth. It's a crazy time to be alive. 

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jack D and coke
17 minutes ago, Savage Vince said:

 

I agree. We are instructed to respect everything except the truth. It's a crazy time to be alive. 

Am I right? Are they right? 😂

Madness. 

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54 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

Not sure how the whole things worked with the Germans but the Luftwaffe certainly ran POW camps, Great Escape was about a Luftwaffe camp.

 

PS, I worked in a West German factory in the late 80s that was owned by an ex SS officer, he still carried a handgun for whatever reason.

 

I think the actual POW camps were a different thing to the , Belsen types. The Pow camps a far as I recall were run by the services they were guarding i.e Luftwaffe for Air force and German army for others. The Jews were in camps as were many Poles and other Slav, Serb nationals whom Hitler merely saw as lesser mortals. The average German soldier was just like our own men, they were given a job to do for their Country, and done it to the best of their ability. I remember German prisoners in the Mid Calder area working on the farms and the people they worked with or associated with thought they were nice young guys. The Italians were in the camp at Duddingston and wandered about the Southside like they were locals , other than the prison uniform they wore with the patches sewn on to it telling their category. The war was a strange experience, you hated a nation but found the nationals you met were just like ourselves.

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Doctor FinnBarr
37 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

I recall when I visited my German “ pen pal “ ( blast from the past ) her father was almost in tears one night apologising to me about the Second World War and Germany’s Involvement . It was all a bit heavy really . I was just there to have a good time . I was 17!

 

I got invited to an 18th when I worked over there, I was only in my mid 20s at the time so that was ok. Got intraduced to the father who'd been a POW in Russia until 10 years after the war ended. Things were fine until he got drunk and kicked off, everyone was advised to walk along a corridor and get out, I made the mistake of opening the living room door to say goodnight and had a glass smashed off the wall over my head as he shouted "Russki"

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JudyJudyJudy
9 minutes ago, FinnBarr Saunders said:

 

I got invited to an 18th when I worked over there, I was only in my mid 20s at the time so that was ok. Got intraduced to the father who'd been a POW in Russia until 10 years after the war ended. Things were fine until he got drunk and kicked off, everyone was advised to walk along a corridor and get out, I made the mistake of opening the living room door to say goodnight and had a glass smashed off the wall over my head as he shouted "Russki"

😂😂😂

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Doctor FinnBarr
14 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 

I think the actual POW camps were a different thing to the , Belsen types. The Pow camps a far as I recall were run by the services they were guarding i.e Luftwaffe for Air force and German army for others. The Jews were in camps as were many Poles and other Slav, Serb nationals whom Hitler merely saw as lesser mortals. The average German soldier was just like our own men, they were given a job to do for their Country, and done it to the best of their ability. I remember German prisoners in the Mid Calder area working on the farms and the people they worked with or associated with thought they were nice young guys. The Italians were in the camp at Duddingston and wandered about the Southside like they were locals , other than the prison uniform they wore with the patches sewn on to it telling their category. The war was a strange experience, you hated a nation but found the nationals you met were just like ourselves.

 

I'm going to guess the Midcalder camp was actually Kirknewton that turned into a British Army camp til the mid 80s. Still have a son of a German soldier staying in Blackburn now, loads od Polish named families too as they were demobbed at Polkemmet House in Whitburn.

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JudyJudyJudy
41 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 

I think the actual POW camps were a different thing to the , Belsen types. The Pow camps a far as I recall were run by the services they were guarding i.e Luftwaffe for Air force and German army for others. The Jews were in camps as were many Poles and other Slav, Serb nationals whom Hitler merely saw as lesser mortals. The average German soldier was just like our own men, they were given a job to do for their Country, and done it to the best of their ability. I remember German prisoners in the Mid Calder area working on the farms and the people they worked with or associated with thought they were nice young guys. The Italians were in the camp at Duddingston and wandered about the Southside like they were locals , other than the prison uniform they wore with the patches sewn on to it telling their category. The war was a strange experience, you hated a nation but found the nationals you met were just like ourselves.

Fascinating to hear this 👍

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jack D and coke

Just remembered I was working for a guy a few weeks ago and he got talking about his old man. I know him well so it’s not a random story.  His dad was a paratrooper in WW2 and was actually involved in the dam busters missions. He was dropped in somewhere and told to take no prisoners as they made progress and to do the job they were supposed to do no matter what. They came across and captured these Germans and were supposed to do the thing with them. He said his dad couldn’t do it but this other guy did and took them away and he heard the gunshots etc. He said it was one of the only stories his dad ever told him about the war because years later he heard the same guy boasting about it in a pub down leith and he lost it and attacked the guy and battered him. 
Just mental that stuff. 

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3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Just remembered I was working for a guy a few weeks ago and he got talking about his old man. I know him well so it’s not a random story.  His dad was a paratrooper in WW2 and was actually involved in the dam busters missions. He was dropped in somewhere and told to take no prisoners as they made progress and to do the job they were supposed to do no matter what. They came across and captured these Germans and were supposed to do the thing with them. He said his dad couldn’t do it but this other guy did and took them away and he heard the gunshots etc. He said it was one of the only stories his dad ever told him about the war because years later he heard the same guy boasting about it in a pub down leith and he lost it and attacked the guy and battered him. 
Just mental that stuff. 

A para involved in the dambusters? 

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jack D and coke
Just now, Tazio said:

A para involved in the dambusters? 

Well doing some groundwork I don’t know. They had to take out positions or something.
I don’t think he was bullshitting me. 

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jack D and coke

His mum is a German too.

Big hibby he is but proper lovely guy. 
I’m well into the bevvy too I might have some details incorrect 🤣

Edited by jack D and coke
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30 minutes ago, Tazio said:

A para involved in the dambusters? 

 

28 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Well doing some groundwork I don’t know. They had to take out positions or something.
I don’t think he was bullshitting me. 

 

Nope.  The only members of the armed forces involved in the Dambuster raid (Operation Chastise) were the crews of the 19 Lancasters.

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

Nope.  The only members of the armed forces involved in the Dambuster raid (Operation Chastise) were the crews of the 19 Lancasters.

Ok I’ve obviously picked it up wrong. Like I said, I’ve had a few😬👍🏼🤪
I’ll see him next week I’ll get him to clarify. 
Cheers

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JudyJudyJudy
33 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

His mum is a German too.

Big hibby he is but proper lovely guy. 
I’m well into the bevvy too I might have some details incorrect 🤣

😂😂😎👀

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Kalamazoo Jambo
3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I think I read somewhere too that people of German descent make up the majority of Americans. 


No, it’s about 16% that claim some German heritage. That is however the biggest self-reported national ancestry (Irish and Mexican are next). And German influence was significant, as Maple Leaf mentioned.


Check out the German American Bund’s fascist rally at (checks notes) Madison Square Garden in 1939...

 

D1EF795C-DE83-4468-98A6-41EC01B2D22E.jpeg

 


https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan

 

 

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Governor Tarkin
11 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

In 1939, Germany had the most powerful army and air force the world had ever seen.  In addition, their coordination of air support, artillery, fast tanks, and infantry was second to none. Their officers and NCOs were better trained than their opponents.  Put all that together with a sense of commitment in their personnel and you get Blitzkrieg, a new and successful way to win battles quickly.  For the first two years of the war no one could stop them.

 

Their squaddies were also off their tits on crystal meth and could fight non stop for days on end feeling like they were invincible.

 

Basically an army of highly trained and disciplined, well armed, well coordinated, well supported, berserkers.

 

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22 hours ago, leginten said:

There’s nothing irrational about the guilt. It still shapes the consciousness of most Germans, their outlook on the world and their caution in foreign affairs. Germans have money, they can and do travel all over the world, but they are painfully aware of themselves as Germans. The past is still ever-present even for those growing up now. (I am, of course, referring to a majority here. There is no shortage of neo-Nazis in parts of Germany today.)

 

You cannot relativise the Holocaust, treat it as just another tragic event in human history that needs to be moved on from, although goodness knows there are many people in today’s world who would be more than delighted to do so for various reasons. The number of children murdered in Auschwitz alone would fill Hampden four times. When Hans Frank said “1000 years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased”, he was right. For this reason it is right that people associated with the slaughter should still be brought to trial. For me, and I think most Germans, we’re still living in the aftermath of the Holocaust and will be for a long time yet.


Pretty much the way I see it, it was a stand out crime in human history. Conducted by a highly advanced nation on an industrial scale using all the resources of Germany and others.

As for the guard I have heard of the story but know nothing of him aside form his age and the fact he was SS.

Millions of people died of starvation, disease, exhaustion from forced labour and other causes, as well as through medical experiments and systematic SS extermination operations including shootings, hangings and gassing.

This crime must always get special attention.

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SectionDJambo
10 hours ago, Sharpie said:

 

I think the actual POW camps were a different thing to the , Belsen types. The Pow camps a far as I recall were run by the services they were guarding i.e Luftwaffe for Air force and German army for others. The Jews were in camps as were many Poles and other Slav, Serb nationals whom Hitler merely saw as lesser mortals. The average German soldier was just like our own men, they were given a job to do for their Country, and done it to the best of their ability. I remember German prisoners in the Mid Calder area working on the farms and the people they worked with or associated with thought they were nice young guys. The Italians were in the camp at Duddingston and wandered about the Southside like they were locals , other than the prison uniform they wore with the patches sewn on to it telling their category. The war was a strange experience, you hated a nation but found the nationals you met were just like ourselves.

We were told a story, years ago, by an old family friend who lived in the Rosewell area. He said that there was a POW camp for captured Germans in Penicuik, probably what is now Glencourse. 

He said they used to fly the prisoners into Turnhouse, but in order to disguise where the camp was, the army would then pack them into the back of big trucks, which the Germans couldn't see out of, and drive them around for hours, before eventually going to Penicuik. This was to discourage any attempt to escape by not letting them know in which location the camp was. They would maybe recognise Turnhouse, but then could have been taken miles away, for all they knew.

One day, after such a long drive, a truck load of German POWs arrived at the Penicuik camp and were disembarked. One of them, who had just been let out of the back of the truck, looked around him and exclaimed, "Ah, ze Pentland Hills!". It turned out he had studied at Edinburgh University before the war and loved to hike over the Pentlands in his free time.

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JudyJudyJudy
12 hours ago, sadj said:


One of my pet peeves is our schooling teaches you what they want you to know not what the truth is sadly.

Yes as much as there is criticism about conspiracy theories , Fake news etc today at least there is an abundance of media outlets which have different news so one can read different perspectives and come to their own conclusions . Unlike then when it was state controlled media such as radio and probably much of the papers ( come to think about it has it realy changed ? ) 

9 hours ago, Kalamazoo Jambo said:


No, it’s about 16% that claim some German heritage. That is however the biggest self-reported national ancestry (Irish and Mexican are next). And German influence was significant, as Maple Leaf mentioned.


Check out the German American Bund’s fascist rally at (checks notes) Madison Square Garden in 1939...

 

D1EF795C-DE83-4468-98A6-41EC01B2D22E.jpeg

 


https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan

 

 

This is almost hidden history . Fascinating. 

55 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

We were told a story, years ago, by an old family friend who lived in the Rosewell area. He said that there was a POW camp for captured Germans in Penicuik, probably what is now Glencourse. 

He said they used to fly the prisoners into Turnhouse, but in order to disguise where the camp was, the army would then pack them into the back of big trucks, which the Germans couldn't see out of, and drive them around for hours, before eventually going to Penicuik. This was to discourage any attempt to escape by not letting them know in which location the camp was. They would maybe recognise Turnhouse, but then could have been taken miles away, for all they knew.

One day, after such a long drive, a truck load of German POWs arrived at the Penicuik camp and were disembarked. One of them, who had just been let out of the back of the truck, looked around him and exclaimed, "Ah, ze Pentland Hills!". It turned out he had studied at Edinburgh University before the war and loved to hike over the Pentlands in his free time.

😂👍

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