Safe Standing Confirmed for England

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

So the above guess of about £100k is not that far off TBH depending how big a section. 
 

It is all about the demand tho tbf, that is what it would boil down to. Would it help put more bums on seats so to speak.

So 1,000 spaces ( assuming the above applies ) is about £120k. Less than I thought to be honest. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

2 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

No increases it. For every 3 people you can technically accommodate and additional 1.  That said.  I’m not sure revaluations in the U.K. allow for it

That was what I thought, because the seats are more compact flat things. I would assume the capacity would only be negligibly affected either way. You can’t just add big numbers to a stands capacity, there’s got to be enough fire exits, toilets and safety stuff for it to be compliant I think. So I’d be assuming the capacity would stay more or less the same, plus or minus tens or a hundred maybe depending how big the section

 

 

[Phil D. Corners]

11 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

No we are not. We are the majority shareholders. I would like to think there will be more consultation between who is ever on the board and ALL of the Hearts support in the future.

As to safe standing I would look at the lower Wheatfield sections A, B, and C to begin with. I am sure there will be discussions by all at Hearts on it.

I think the standing section should be at an End of a ground. So for us it would be the Gorgie stand. 
 

I love grounds in Germany where one end is always going full gas to the away fans on the other side. This is missing from Tyne IMO. 

[iwasthere1954]

5 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Seen the news today that the ban on standing is being lifted to allow safe standing in the top 2 leagues in the U.K. so with that precedent set along with Celtic, IMO we should get it in our ground,I’d buy a ticket for that section.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58357046?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

 

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this topic which periodically resurfaces every year or 2? 

Iirc were Celtic not some sort of trial club? Seems it’s now been proven safe and the argument has been won. What section of our ground should we turn into safe standing? If at all? Prefer to keep the whole stadium all seated? Is it compatible for Tynecastle or would we need to knock down / rebuild a stand?  I think we should install the rail seats all along the whole lower main stand imo. Bear pit. 

Yes lets knock down a stand and build a new one for several million pounds to allow us put in seats for standing. That will make sense. 

[sac]

Safe standing at Ibrox today without having to remove any seats

[JimmyCant]

4 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Think you are misunderstanding something here. The board answers to the owner of the club, the foundation of Hearts. That’s us. So that means if there is demand for this, the board must respond, engage, and provide ideas or facts relating to what the fans want. They run the club at the behest of us. This will not be some kind of dictatorship, this will be a democracy and those in charge report to the electorate - the boss.

 

If the section N thing is a big deal for you, raise it, get a petition going and see what support you get, meanwhile others will raise safe standing and that will get support. And based on what the fans want, the board must act. 

You’ve completely misunderstood how the club will be run in future. If you are an FOH member, every so often you will get the chance to vote for representatives on the board. That’s the only input you will get. If you’re not happy with what the board are doing,or a specific member is doing, you get to vote against them next time.

 

Of course they will take account of overall member wishes but you’re not getting to decide whether an area of the stadium gets a standing area and you’re definitely not getting to decide where that standing area would be.

[Zen Jambo]

I hate sitting. And I’m a lazy fat knacker. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

7 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You’ve completely misunderstood how the club will be run in future. If you are an FOH member, every so often you will get the chance to vote for representatives on the board. That’s the only input you will get. If you’re not happy with what the board are doing,or a specific member is doing, you get to vote against them next time.

 

Of course they will take account of overall member wishes but you’re not getting to decide whether an area of the stadium gets a standing area and you’re definitely not getting to decide where that standing area would be.

… you’ve pretty much said the same thing I’ve said? It’ll be democratic? At no point have I said I’m some 1 man band who will make decisions. If you look at the clown who i was responding to, he was saying the board will dictate to the fans, there’s “no chance”, and they will block what we want for our stadium, based on a few guys in section N saying the F word in a song. 
 

If there is sufficient demand among the fans for anything, it will be up to the board to respond to and act on the fans wishes. Because the fans are the owner. No we’re not going to be in there as some chaotic mob rule that is not the suggestion, there will be due parliamentary process. But as it’s democratic the board answer directly to the fans, from tomorrow onwards. 

 

As far as I am concerned, the only justification for not having a safe standing rail seats section, is a technical / feasibility one IE there’s a compatibility issue and I would expect supporting documents for that to be made fully public. But I can’t see any clear reason that rugby park and Celtic park would be able to do it but not Tynecastle. 

[TyphoonJambo]

4 hours ago, washniklaw said:

Because of the sight line issue of some people standing and other sitting it has to be in a corner of a stand or a whole stand. I wouldn’t be against the whole of the Gorgie stand being turned into a kop like experience (maroon wall). I think it could almost be the party stand with the gorgie suite repurposed to allow for an amazing day out for a regular supporter. We have other suites and space to move match day dining into the main stand.
 

It comes with challenges, but it would create something unique.

100% gets my vote. I'm well old but I'd be right in there.  Sitting watching football is not the same.

[Famous 1874]

In the top row of the bottom section in the Wheatfield. Could the disabled seats still see if people stood? 

[Cruyff]

Makes for a better atmosphere so I hope it happens. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Could make the gorgie suite part of the safe standing match day experience as well. Plenty lounges now, need something to differentiate it as an experience. 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Could make the gorgie suite part of the safe standing match day experience as well. Plenty lounges now, need something to differentiate it as an experience. 

How much should they charge for safe standing spots compared to seats?

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, davemclaren said:

How much should they charge for safe standing spots compared to seats?

I would expect all the commercials to come out in the feasibility study / consultation? It’s just got to be looked at in fine detail hasn’t it, and planned, and the fans need informed. It would have implications for season tickets as well. I’m pushing for it, but there’s a lot of ins and outs as to where it could go (if anywhere) - eg the financials and the post above about disabled seats, I’m no expert on the matter but it’s up to the club to produce the report. If we’re looking at a few hundred thousand to install, and the fans want it, why not. 

 

Iirc, I swear I remember a couple of years ago there was another thread where there was an event on at Tynecastle by a company that installs them. So the club must have looked at it already but we heard nothing 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I would expect all the commercials to come out in the feasibility study / consultation? It’s just got to be looked at in fine detail hasn’t it, and planned, and the fans need informed. It would have implications for season tickets as well. I’m pushing for it, but there’s a lot of ins and outs as to where it could go (if anywhere) - eg the financials and the post above about disabled seats, I’m no expert on the matter but it’s up to the club to produce the report. If we’re looking at a few hundred thousand to install, and the fans want it, why not. 

 

Iirc, I swear I remember a couple of years ago there was another thread where there was an event on at Tynecastle by a company that installs them. So the club must have looked at it already but we heard nothing 

There was a photo of a trial. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

6 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

There was a photo of a trial. 

To be fair, it must have been not that long before covid. So maybe it was looked at but fizzled out… not much point installing new seats last season  

[davemclaren]

[A_A wehatethehibs]

17 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’s the wheatfield isn’t it? 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

That’s the wheatfield isn’t it? 

Think so. 

[The Treasurer]

5 hours ago, davemclaren said:

£100k to install safe standing? I think that’s a big underestimate. 

Especially as there will be no increase in income. Probably the opposite as standing areas will no doubt be cheaper than seating 

[Phil D. Corners]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I’ve seen standing/rail seat systems that have had a far thiner profile then those. Those look huge and take up a lot of room. 
 

1 hour ago, The Treasurer said:

Especially as there will be no increase in income. Probably the opposite as standing areas will no doubt be cheaper than seating 

 

Depends on what we want more. I would forgo some income in order to get a Gorgie kop. Long term this would enhance the atmosphere and bring more people to game. 

[washniklaw]

2 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

Especially as there will be no increase in income. Probably the opposite as standing areas will no doubt be cheaper than seating 

I think there is opportunity to increase revenue by positioning safe standing in the full Gorgie stand.

Approx 1/3rd of the stand is currently sold at Bronze level pricing. If we introduced a unique experience, a standing season ticket, we could easily sell them at a higher pricing structure. If we repurposed the Gorgie suite and used the 2nd floor of the main stand for dining we could have supporters spending more when they are in the stadium. 
 

I can only speak for myself but I think we are in a really enviable position of having space to move quickly on this. We have a full floor approx 2000m2 lying vacant and are about to become fan owned. We have the financial backing of the foundation and could create something special by investing in the match day experience.

 

[allystrachan]

Georgie stand incorporating a match day experience is a great idea. Money maker for the club with people drinking & other secondary spend. The atmosphere could be brilliant too.

[7628mm]

6 hours ago, davemclaren said:

 

That looks completely over engineered, far too flimsy and will be easily damaged rendering them unsafe long term.

This design suggests to me that the designer has no appreciation of human behaviour (human factors) or Mechanical strength in engineering a product suitable for the use it is intended. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by 7628mm

[JimmyCant]

Our stands are too steep for an entire stand to be converted to safe standing without major and costly reconstruction.(to level the sloping) 

 

if we’re having it all it will be in the front sections of one of the stands, most likely the Gorgie and there is still some levelling that would need done to get approval and a safety certificate for it

[Phil D. Corners]

47 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Our stands are too steep for an entire stand to be converted to safe standing without major and costly reconstruction.(to level the sloping) 

 

if we’re having it all it will be in the front sections of one of the stands, most likely the Gorgie and there is still some levelling that would need done to get approval and a safety certificate for it

I would still like the club to investigate what it would take. 
 

If the feedback is we need to rebuild the gorgie stand and it would cost a few million etc at least we can decided if that something we would want to do. 
 

Thanks to FoH and others we have a new main stand, so it could be possible. 

[The Gorgie]

If other clubs do it then we will eventually do it too. Lower section of the gorgie to start with and if the demand is there expand it section by section.

[Savage Vince]

12 hours ago, Phil D. Corners said:

as of Monday, we are the board. 
 

 

Worrying. 

[Tommy Brown]

13 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

No increases it. For every 3 people you can technically accommodate and additional 1.  That said.  I’m not sure revaluations in the U.K. allow for it

I dont believe your figures KA.

A standard seat is about 2' wide (600mm)

Your pretty much shoulder to shoulder.

4 people arent suddenly going to fit into 6' wide.

Maybe 10 seats could gain an extra  not 3.

 

Sorry, imo.

[fila]

Build on the atmosphere , potentially increase capacity , guaranteed to sell out  , fans would love it ............................ not a hope in hell this is happening !! 

[The Treasurer]

People who think standing areas would automatically improve the atmosphere obviously weren't around when the old terracing was there.

[Nookie Bear]

20 hours ago, davemclaren said:

 

Not gonna lie, i thought it would be bigger but it's a start 🤷‍♂️

[DETTY29]

If possible, I'd put it in front tiers of the Gorgie Stand and then expand into Sections A and S and the other lower tiers in time.

Edited August 30, 2021 by DETTY29

[hughesie27]

Section N lower is effectively a standing section already. Making g it official would just be a waste of money and bring nothing extra to the atmosphere.

 

I was sure Budge gas spoken to this in the past and said it would only be introduced to the Gorgie stand.

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Section N lower is effectively a standing section already. Making g it official would just be a waste of money and bring nothing extra to the atmosphere.

 

I was sure Budge gas spoken to this in the past and said it would only be introduced to the Gorgie stand.

It was discussed a lot when we were looking to build the new stand. Ann answered a couple of questions on the subject during the consultation sessions. Can’t remember the answers though. 😄

[JimmyCant]

On 29/08/2021 at 09:52, kingantti1874 said:

No increases it. For every 3 people you can technically accommodate and additional 1.  That said.  I’m not sure revaluations in the U.K. allow for it

Rail seating/standing is 1 for 1 ( each standing person still has to have a seat)so no impact either way in capacity

Edited August 30, 2021 by JimmyCant

[Stu_HMFC]

Quick question - If we had railed seats down the bottom of the gorgie and moved supporters into it who want to stand throughout the match would this not restrict the view of the goal and corners for the fans in the lower part of the upper gorgie ?

 

Also I know a few fans who have sat down the bottom but the back row of it Imagine if they never wanted to move or stand 😂 An argument waiting to happen between fans. 

[fabienleclerq]

Why are people saying lower out of interest? Surely the upper sections make more sense as they aren't then blocking people's view? Tbh the new stand should've been built with this in mind imo. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

4 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said:

Why are people saying lower out of interest? Surely the upper sections make more sense as they aren't then blocking people's view? Tbh the new stand should've been built with this in mind imo. 

Not sure, folk seem to think there’s a steepness issue or something, but we’ve seen no official proof that’s the case from an engineering perspective. I think the only difference that would make is the handrails need to be a bit taller. But that isn’t a blocker, just would add cost.

 

I actually agree and think the upper gorgie would make the most sense, maybe 2 sections which I think would be 1000 or so spaces. I think it would be popular 

 

 

[DETTY29]

While I would say Gorgie Stand for standing, what happens if you go to the cost of safe standing but some (not all) of G and N who stand anyway, don't move because their key match day experience is noising up away fans.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by DETTY29

[Byyy The Light]

+1 for whole of Gorgie stand and Gorgie suite experience.

 

Not sure it would increase the atmosphere against the smaller teams but Cat A would be excellent.  Hopefully the same way Easter Road is at our end on derby day.  A lot of the problem with atmosphere is folk feel stupid belting stuff out when nobody around them joins in.

 

No scientific evidence but I'm sure you'd probably find a link with people happy to stand, have a bit nonsense and who appreciate the more noisy atmospheres.  Should be something for everyone on matchday, families, young team ultras, over the hill casuals (😜), wannabe hangers on, sweetie paper rustlers etc.  As long as everyone knows what they are getting depending on where they sit then all good.

 

 

[Ribble]

22 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

Rail seating/standing is 1 for 1 ( each standing person still has to have a seat)so no impact either way in capacity

 

it's not, 1:1 only applies to European games that mandate seating, for regular games the regulations (called the Green Guide) allow 1.8 people standing for every person seated, a section of 40 seats can hold 72

 

If we take the Gorgie as an example (leaving steepness of the stand to the side)

 

Current capacity seated is approx 3650, with an average ticket price of say £30 brings in a total of almost £2.1m in ticket sales over 19 home games

 

Safe standing capacity would be 6570, a reduced average ticket price of £20 would still bring in over £2.5m

[davemclaren]

16 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

it's not, 1:1 only applies to European games that mandate seating, for regular games the regulations (called the Green Guide) allow 1.8 people standing for every person seated, a section of 40 seats can hold 72

 

If we take the Gorgie as an example (leaving steepness of the stand to the side)

 

Current capacity seated is approx 3650, with an average ticket price of say £30 brings in a total of almost £2.1m in ticket sales over 19 home games

 

Safe standing capacity would be 6570, a reduced average ticket price of £20 would still bring in over £2.5m

If it was full. 

[Ribble]

11 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

If it was full. 

 

Statement kinda applies to any capacity based discussion, no?

[davemclaren]

Just now, Ribble said:

 

Statement kinda applies to any capacity based discussion, no?

Yes, but the assumption is we will sell more than it currently does, which it might not. 

 

Also, If it did you would likely be taking people from existing seats elsewhere in the stadium ( likely pricier ) so there may be a net financial loss. 
 

 

[Ribble]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Yes, but the assumption is we will sell more than it currently does, which it might not. 

 

Exact same argument could have been made against the main stand being rebuilt

 

Point is that capacity could be increased by safe standing and you also only need to price a safe standing area at above 55% of the price of a seated ticket in order to at least break even, points that were made in response to comments thinking that it wouldn't increase capacity

[Cruyff]

I know the green guide for safe standing suggests the gradient or pitch of the stand for safe standing should be no more than 28°c. However, the legal pitch for stairs/stands of a non-domestic structure is 34°c, which I believe our stands are so there could be some ambiguity surrounding what guidance states and what the actual statute suggests is safe. Considering we already have a safety certificate for the use of our stands for which people already stand in, I can't see how we would not get a safety certificate for safe standing. 

I think the only obstacles here are, cost of implementation and ensuring others, such as wheel chair users, views are not obscured. 

[JimmyCant]

35 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I know the green guide for safe standing suggests the gradient or pitch of the stand for safe standing should be no more than 28°c. However, the legal pitch for stairs/stands of a non-domestic structure is 34°c, which I believe our stands are so there could be some ambiguity surrounding what guidance states and what the actual statute suggests is safe. Considering we already have a safety certificate for the use of our stands for which people already stand in, I can't see how we would not get a safety certificate for safe standing. 

 

I think the only obstacles here are, cost of implementation and ensuring others, such as wheel chair users, views are not obscured. 

Good info, but the safety certificate specifies that fans are seated. The fact that they choose not to sit is irrelevant and probably a breach of the certificate, which is why the club bring it up so often. If we wanted any standing area the gradient would need to be reduced from 34 to 28 somehow IMO.

[davemclaren]

56 minutes ago, Ribble said:

 

Exact same argument could have been made against the main stand being rebuilt

 

Point is that capacity could be increased by safe standing and you also only need to price a safe standing area at above 55% of the price of a seated ticket in order to at least break even, points that were made in response to comments thinking that it wouldn't increase capacity

The main stand had to be replaced regardless of ultimate capacity. It was life expired. Increased capacity was a secondary factor and a bonus. 
 

Still not convinced with your assumptions as, if it’s as popular as made out, folk will move from other areas of the stadium meaning potentially less income overall. 

[davemclaren]

57 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I know the green guide for safe standing suggests the gradient or pitch of the stand for safe standing should be no more than 28°c. However, the legal pitch for stairs/stands of a non-domestic structure is 34°c, which I believe our stands are so there could be some ambiguity surrounding what guidance states and what the actual statute suggests is safe. Considering we already have a safety certificate for the use of our stands for which people already stand in, I can't see how we would not get a safety certificate for safe standing. 

 

I think the only obstacles here are, cost of implementation and ensuring others, such as wheel chair users, views are not obscured. 

Our safety certificate doesn’t allow standing.