Trans athletes

[JudyJudyJudy]

Great interview.  " gender identity" is meaningless

 

 

 

[Hansel]

4 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Great interview.  " gender identity" is meaningless

 

 

 

I hate fox news and Tucker Carlson is an absolute bell end.

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Hansel said:

I hate fox news and Tucker Carlson is an absolute bell end.

I like it and hes a dish .  ps dont shoot the messenger...listen to what she is saying. unfortunately the only common  sense coming from this debate is from the more traditional right wing sources. The so called " left" have rolled over. 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

To be honest he lost me when he said his foster daughter “. Claimed “ to be bisexual . Why use the term “ claimed “ it’s not something young people really make up , acceptance is everything at that age . 

 

2 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

And what if she'd claimed to be a boy in the wrong body?

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

No One Is Born in ‘The Wrong Body’ (quillette.com)

[JudyJudyJudy]

Transgender psychologist who helped hundreds of teens transition suggests peer pressure is behind rise in children coming out (gbnews.uk)

[The Dragon Reborn]

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

knew I was gay and knew it was going to be a harder journey in life due to that but I didn’t cop out and go down the trans route as I wasn’t influenced by any of it

I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way but that could come across as a bit offensive to those who do make the decision to go down the trans route. I agree with most of what you’ve written on this issue but we all just need to be careful we’re approaching this issue with tolerance and understanding of others.
 

On another thread (apologies if it wasn’t you) I think you also had a go at those who choose to remain ‘in the closet’. We need to respect everyone’s choices (as long as they don’t impinge on the rights of others) as we all only have one life and are doing the best we can. Walk a mile in my shoes etc.

[The Dragon Reborn]

15 hours ago, graygo said:

 

Also I will argue all day long that violence by anyone is equally abhorrent regardless of which sex is doing it to whatever sex.

Do you also agree therefore that some of the trans rights being demanded make that violence more likely?

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way but that could come across as a bit offensive to those who do make the decision to go down the trans route. I agree with most of what you’ve written on this issue but we all just need to be careful we’re approaching this issue with tolerance and understanding of others.
 

On another thread (apologies if it wasn’t you) I think you also had a go at those who choose to remain ‘in the closet’. We need to respect everyone’s choices (as long as they don’t impinge on the rights of others) as we all only have one life and are doing the best we can. Walk a mile in my shoes etc.

The cop out reference should have been made clearer. What i meant is that some young gay or lesbian may believe it is easier to believe themselves to be trans as its more socially acceptable to them ( in their thinking) . Its been well documented that some parents would prefer that their child was trans than being gay or lesbian. Hence the " cop out" term.  Its the easier route * well perceived to be. It follows the   " medical model" Ie " they cant help whom they are its biological. 

 

Yes I did think after i had wrote the comment on the other thread about those in the closet not coming out.  It is their choice and as you say as long as they are not making anti gay / lesbian statements well that's their business. However i was more thinking about their own sense of self and who they are. They are not being their real self. They are being inauthentic and it saddens me. They could also be great role models for young gay and lesbians if they came out.  Those role models in politics are sorely needed. We need more people who have influence and power who are unapologetically who they are and wear their self with pride.  It inspires others. 

 

I grew up in a time when there were no real gay role models. In fact gay and lesbians were ridiculed and mocked as well as abused. Visibility is everything. 

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by JamesM48

[The Dragon Reborn]

46 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

The cop out reference should have been made clearer. What i meant is that some young gay or lesbian may believe it is easier to believe themselves to be trans as its more socially acceptable to them ( in their thinking) . Its been well documented that some parents would prefer that their child was trans than being gay or lesbian. Hence the " cop out" term.  Its the easier route * well perceived to be. It follows the   " medical model" Ie " they cant help whom they are its biological. 

 

Yes I did think after i had wrote the comment on the other thread about those in the closet not coming out.  It is their choice and as you say as long as they are not making anti gay / lesbian statements well that's their business. However i was more thinking about their own sense of self and who they are. They are not being their real self. They are being inauthentic and it saddens me. They could also be great role models for young gay and lesbians if they came out.  Those role models in politics are sorely needed. We need more people who have influence and power who are unapologetically who they are and wear their self with pride.  It inspires others. 

 

I grew up in a time when there were no real gay role models. In fact gay and lesbians were ridiculed and mocked as well as abused. Visibility is everything. 

 

Thanks for clarifying. Couldn’t agree more with the part in bold 👍🏻

[JudyJudyJudy]

39 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Thanks for clarifying. Couldn’t agree more with the part in bold 👍🏻

👍

[Mr Brightside]

4 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

No One Is Born in ‘The Wrong Body’ (quillette.com)

 

4 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

The cop out reference should have been made clearer. What i meant is that some young gay or lesbian may believe it is easier to believe themselves to be trans as its more socially acceptable to them ( in their thinking) . Its been well documented that some parents would prefer that their child was trans than being gay or lesbian. Hence the " cop out" term.  Its the easier route * well perceived to be. It follows the   " medical model" Ie " they cant help whom they are its biological. 

I agree with a lot you have said on this thread but disagree with these 2 posts.

There will be people who feel they are in the wrong body and once they reach 18 and after counselling and assessment they should be supported to transition if that’s what they want.

 

 I don’t think being trans is more socially acceptable than LGB, if someone mentions they are LGB it barely gets acknowledged, which is a good thing and hasn’t always been the case in the past.

 

Where I think we do agree is that a man can’t just decide to declare he is a woman, pop on a dress and then use a woman only safe space or compete in woman’s sport but still essential have a male body with no intention to transition. This behaviour should be challenged.

 

[graygo]

7 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

To be honest he lost me when he said his foster daughter “. Claimed “ to be bisexual . Why use the term “ claimed “ it’s not something young people really make up , acceptance is everything at that age . 

 

Aye I used the wrong word, hang me ffs. 🤡

 

See that bit in bold, are you for real? You only accept gays, lesbians and bisexuals you hypocrite.

[graygo]

4 hours ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Thanks for clarifying. Couldn’t agree more with the part in bold 👍🏻

 

He forgot to add "except transgenders, they can gtf" 

[graygo]

7 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

To be honest he lost me when he said his foster daughter “. Claimed “ to be bisexual . Why use the term “ claimed “ it’s not something young people really make up , acceptance is everything at that age . 

 

You have experience of children in care I believe, how can you claim that it is beyond them to make it up? I can assure you from experience that it is.

[graygo]

7 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Very true Jack D . I think that why some men get angry in the trans debate due to that very issue . They are very sensitive/ defensive  to it but it’s true . Not all men as you said . I’ve female friend who tell me similar horror stories. 
 

Some mens behaviours have to change .  I’m not so sure about gay men and violence but it’s certainly less than “ straight “ men in the stats but then there might be some violent “ straight “ men who are in the closet and their violence is due to repression of their sexuality . I brought this point up at a domestic abuse course I was on and the tutor thought it was a interesting point but there has been hardly any research about gays and violence . 

 

More made up shite from you, a simple Google search would have educated you.

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20180716/study-nearly-half-of-gay-men-face-domestic-violence

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29994648

 

https://ncadv.org/blog/posts/domestic-violence-and-the-lgbtq-community

 

There's many, many more on the subject, have a look.

[graygo]

5 hours ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Do you also agree therefore that some of the trans rights being demanded make that violence more likely?

 

Which ones?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

You have experience of children in care I believe, how can you claim that it is beyond them to make it up? I can assure you from experience that it is.

I’m out on the piss enjoying myself I’ll reply on Sunday have a great weekend 

[The Dragon Reborn]

1 hour ago, graygo said:

 

Which ones?

The ones which would reduce the number of safe spaces.

[graygo]

1 hour ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

The ones which would reduce the number of safe spaces.

 

I was hoping for something a bit more specific.   

[The Dragon Reborn]

16 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

I was hoping for something a bit more specific.   

Life’s full of little disappointments. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

This thread has mentioned plenty of examples already of safe spaces which would be eroded 👍🏻

[graygo]

3 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

Life’s full of little disappointments. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

This thread has mentioned plenty of examples already of safe spaces which would be eroded 👍🏻

 

And yet you won't name one? Sorry mate I'm not trawling back to find out.

[Ulysses]

Ah, quelle surprise, as they say in Germany.  Ulysses is  ****ing bang on the cash - again.

 

Somebody: I'm against this group of people and it is because of this fact here.

 

Ulysses: Ah, but that is not a fact, and there is no evidence to support it.

 

Somebody: **** off Ulysses and stop hurting my feelings, you bully.

 

 

[...later...]

 

 

Somebody: I'm just against this group of people anyway, regardless.

 

 

Go away and fling shite at yourselves. 

[The Dragon Reborn]

9 hours ago, graygo said:

 

And yet you won't name one? Sorry mate I'm not trawling back to find out.

No trawling required mate. Engage the old grey matter for a few seconds and I’m sure you’ll be able to think of at leat two or three  situations.

[doctor jambo]

8 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Ah, quelle surprise, as they say in Germany.  Ulysses is  ****ing bang on the cash - again.

 

Somebody: I'm against this group of people and it is because of this fact here.

 

Ulysses: Ah, but that is not a fact, and there is no evidence to support it.

 

Somebody: **** off Ulysses and stop hurting my feelings, you bully.

 

 

[...later...]

 

 

Somebody: I'm just against this group of people anyway, regardless.

 

 

Go away and fling shite at yourselves. 

Back on topic…..

there is no evidence anywhere that you can medically convert a man into a woman.

None.

The reduction of a single parameter (testosterone ) does not stop you being a man ( it’s a bit insulting actually) .

and the addition of female hormones does not make you female.

The emperors new clothes

[cosanostra]

I work with two professional female athletes - one is an AFL player and the other is an MMA fighter. 

Both have told me that there's no way they would even consider playing or fighting a trans man if they were allowed to compete within their organizations.

It seems unfair to ask them to in my opinion. Especially if they don't want to. I know it's only two people but the AFL player said her entire team was prepared to refuse to play any team who had any players who were born male.

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

14 hours ago, graygo said:

 

More made up shite from you, a simple Google search would have educated you.

 

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20180716/study-nearly-half-of-gay-men-face-domestic-violence

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29994648

 

https://ncadv.org/blog/posts/domestic-violence-and-the-lgbtq-community

 

There's many, many more on the subject, have a look.

I said there is some gay domestic abuse I didn’t say there was none . I have experienced it myself  and finally got rid of the nut job ! It’s hard to believe your a foster carer with your lack of tolerance . 

49 minutes ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

No trawling required mate. Engage the old grey matter for a few seconds and I’m sure you’ll be able to think of at leat two or three  situations.

He can’t . He thinks he is right on every topic and cannot debate anything despite being consistently challenged 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Preach sister preach 

 

 

 

[graygo]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Reborn said:

No trawling required mate. Engage the old grey matter for a few seconds and I’m sure you’ll be able to think of at leat two or three  situations.

 

And if they're not the two or three situations you're thinking of round we go again, seriously pal if you want my views on a certain situation then at least have the decency to tell me what those situations are.

[graygo]

1 hour ago, cosanostra said:

I work with two professional female athletes - one is an AFL player and the other is an MMA fighter. 

Both have told me that there's no way they would even consider playing or fighting a trans man if they were allowed to compete within their organizations.

It seems unfair to ask them to in my opinion. Especially if they don't want to. I know it's only two people but the AFL player said her entire team was prepared to refuse to play any team who had any players who were born male.

 

 

They're quite right, no way should a trans athlete be allowed to compete against non trans athletes imo.

 

@The Dragon Rebornis that one of your situations? 

[graygo]

23 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

Very true Jack D . I think that why some men get angry in the trans debate due to that very issue . They are very sensitive/ defensive  to it but it’s true . Not all men as you said . I’ve female friend who tell me similar horror stories. 
 

Some mens behaviours have to change .  I’m not so sure about gay men and violence but it’s certainly less than “ straight “ men in the stats but then there might be some violent “ straight “ men who are in the closet and their violence is due to repression of their sexuality . I brought this point up at a domestic abuse course I was on and the tutor thought it was a interesting point but there has been hardly any research about gays and violence . 

 

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

I said there is some gay domestic abuse I didn’t say there was none . I have experienced it myself  and finally got rid of the nut job ! It’s hard to believe your a foster carer with your lack of tolerance . 

 

Stop rewriting history, there's what you said. Two absolute whoppers from an absolute walloper. There's been lots of research into gay violence, you just don't like the outcomes of that research. 

 

Where's your tolerance for transgenders? Oh yes they don't exist.

 

1 hour ago, JamesM48 said:

He can’t . He thinks he is right on every topic and cannot debate anything despite being consistently challenged 

 

Here's the thing mate, I don't think I'm right on every topic, I've admitted as much on this very thread, maybe even on the previous page. Have an inward look, that post above describes you and it's evident on every single thread that you pollute on this forum.

[JudyJudyJudy]

27 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

 

Stop rewriting history, there's what you said. Two absolute whoppers from an absolute walloper. There's been lots of research into gay violence, you just don't like the outcomes of that research. 

 

Where's your tolerance for transgenders? Oh yes they don't exist.

 

 

Here's the thing mate, I don't think I'm right on every topic, I've admitted as much on this very thread, maybe even on the previous page. Have an inward look, that post above describes you and it's evident on every single thread that you pollute on this forum.

 

[graygo]

2 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

 

 

2 hours ago, JamesM48 said:

He thinks he is right on every topic and cannot debate anything despite being consistently challenged 

 

There we have it.  Look inward.

Edited April 16, 2022 by graygo

[graygo]

Gay man: Gay men are much less violent than straight men.

 

Straight man: There's loads of evidence that states the opposite is true, in fact over 50% of gay men have suffered domestic violence from their partner 

 

Gay man: I never said there was no violence.

 

Straight man: No, you said much less and I've shown you evidence to prove that isn't true.

 

Gay man:  Bolt.

 

[Ulysses]

13 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Back on topic…..

there is no evidence anywhere that you can medically convert a man into a woman.

None.

The reduction of a single parameter (testosterone ) does not stop you being a man ( it’s a bit insulting actually) .

and the addition of female hormones does not make you female.

The emperors new clothes

 

And?

[Ulysses]

17 hours ago, cosanostra said:

I work with two professional female athletes - one is an AFL player and the other is an MMA fighter. 

Both have told me that there's no way they would even consider playing or fighting a trans man if they were allowed to compete within their organizations.

It seems unfair to ask them to in my opinion. Especially if they don't want to. I know it's only two people but the AFL player said her entire team was prepared to refuse to play any team who had any players who were born male.

 

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm not about to go making arguments against people identifying as whatever gender they wish.  But the powers that be in sports have a problem here, and they need to make sure they find the right solution.  Do I know what that is?  Nope, but I do know that it does not involve admitting into competition with women people who were born male, who have full-on male bodies and who have testosterone levels that are literally off the charts - levels that would see a woman being sent for screening for life-threatening illnesses.

[cosanostra]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm not about to go making arguments against people identifying as whatever gender they wish.  But the powers that be in sports have a problem here, and they need to make sure they find the right solution.  Do I know what that is?  Nope, but I do know that it does not involve admitting into competition with women people who were born male, who have full-on male bodies and who have testosterone levels that are literally off the charts - levels that would see a woman being sent for screening for life-threatening illnesses.

 

Here's the trans woman that wanted to play pro women's AFL.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com.au/afl/people-are-happy-to-ignore-truth-hannah-mouncey-says-too-many-opinions-are-based-on-fear-not-facts/news-story/f9dbdfbdb7fbd2a9b5f8e7cc1dfc0c2b

She's 6ft3, 200lbs and with a frame and musculature that no other player in the league would have. She was apparently "rag-dolling" girls at the amateur level she was allowed to play at.

She's also lowered her testosterone level with hormones to almost negligible levels.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, cosanostra said:

 

Here's the trans woman that wanted to play pro women's AFL.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxsports.com.au/afl/people-are-happy-to-ignore-truth-hannah-mouncey-says-too-many-opinions-are-based-on-fear-not-facts/news-story/f9dbdfbdb7fbd2a9b5f8e7cc1dfc0c2b

She's 6ft3, 200lbs and with a frame and musculature that no other player in the league would have. She was apparently "rag-dolling" girls at the amateur level she was allowed to play at.

She's also lowered her testosterone level with hormones to almost negligible levels.

 

This is the thing.  How do you actually ensure fair competition when some athletes have had years, even decades, of what is in effect a biochemical advantage?

[cosanostra]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

This is the thing.  How do you actually ensure fair competition when some athletes have had years, even decades, of what is in effect a biochemical advantage?

 

Not a clue. I don't think you can, if I had to guess. Letting a trans woman with such a size and power advantage over birth women seems completely unfair.

Especially if birth women are united against it.

[doctor jambo]

6 hours ago, cosanostra said:

 

Not a clue. I don't think you can, if I had to guess. Letting a trans woman with such a size and power advantage over birth women seems completely unfair.

Especially if birth women are united against it.

This is the point .

However the point is being lost , as politicians etc are now struggling to say what a woman is, what is female .

And until they can do that, how do you decide who can compete?

Is a female merely a list of lab test parameters?

That is how it is being decided at present.

[ri Alban]

7 hours ago, cosanostra said:

 

Not a clue. I don't think you can, if I had to guess. Letting a trans woman with such a size and power advantage over birth women seems completely unfair.

Especially if birth women are united against it.

It's not birth women, it's women. Trans women as you call them, are men.

[cosanostra]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

It's not birth women, it's women. Trans women as you call them, are men.

 

I pretty much agree but if they want me to call them women or men, I'll oblige their wishes. Doesn't bother me what they want to be called.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

It's not birth women, it's women. Trans women as you call them, are men.

I agree . I’ve stopped even referring to some as “ her “ and “ she “ . I’m playing into their delusions by doing so . Trans are trans , women are women . Simple as that . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, cosanostra said:

 

I pretty much agree but if they want me to call them women or men, I'll oblige their wishes. Doesn't bother me what they want to be called.

Yes but it offends birth / biological women by referring  to them  as women . It erasing female identity or reframes it. 

[CF11JamTart]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

This is the thing.  How do you actually ensure fair competition when some athletes have had years, even decades, of what is in effect a biochemical advantage?

And that's the crux of the Fairness and Safety v Inclusion issues. 

 

Would I want to my daughter playing rugby against a trans woman? Nope. 

[milky_26]

10 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

This is the thing.  How do you actually ensure fair competition when some athletes have had years, even decades, of what is in effect a biochemical advantage?

i ask the same question about drug cheats in sport. an athlete that dopes but then stops i assume has had their body changed from the doping and stopping taking them will not change that

[escobri]

 

Definitely a global issue now.

[escobri]

Not sport related but messed up all the same.

[Mr Brightside]

On 17/04/2022 at 11:44, escobri said:

Not sport related but messed up all the same.

I know that is probably an extreme example but that person is obviously biologically male so shouldn’t be in a female prison.

I do however think if someone fully transitions then they should be treated as the sex / gender they have transitioned to.

 

Should a trans woman  compete in women’s sport, no they have too many physical advantages from their time as a male.

[JudyJudyJudy]

55 minutes ago, Mr Brightside said:

I know that is probably an extreme example but that person is obviously biologically male so shouldn’t be in a female prison.

I do however think if someone fully transitions then they should be treated as the sex / gender they have transitioned to.

 

Should a trans woman  compete in women’s sport, no they have too many physical advantages from their time as a male.

I agree with your points.