Old firm colts lowland league

[jim747]

On 12/05/2021 at 14:51, Chuck Berry said:

The end game is an expanded L2 for 2022/23 to 16 clubs, OF Colts plus a couple each from LL and HL.

 

The LL are just being used as pawns in the process.

You were bang on the money, and we all know he SPFL will push and keep on pushing till they force their agenda through.

SPFL clubs are meeting today to discuss league reconstruction plans that could lead to Old Firm colts sides playing in Scottish League 2 the season after next. (The Scotsman).

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57608026

[alwaysthereinspirit]

6 minutes ago, jim747 said:

You were bang on the money, and we all know he SPFL will push and keep on pushing till they force their agenda through.

SPFL clubs are meeting today to discuss league reconstruction plans that could lead to Old Firm colts sides playing in Scottish League 2 the season after next. (The Scotsman).

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57608026

Am I to assume the Scottish football pyramid has collapsed? Only in Scotland.

We’re a joke of a footballing nation. 

[milky_26]

so much for one season only, 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10604773/Celtic-Rangers-B-teams-set-stay-Scotlands-Lowland-League-season.html

 

for those who do not want to click the link, both arse cheek colts are to present their cases to remain in the lowland league next season

[Super_Hans]

Hopefully our colts team will join them.

[Hmfc1965]

2 minutes ago, Super_Hans said:

Hopefully our colts team will join them.

I doubt we'd go straight in to the Lowland League though. 

Nor should we in principle but one rule for one ..........

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

so much for one season only, 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10604773/Celtic-Rangers-B-teams-set-stay-Scotlands-Lowland-League-season.html

 

for those who do not want to click the link, both arse cheek colts are to present their cases to remain in the lowland league next season

 

No way, you don't say! I, for one, am stunned by this completely unexpected development.

 

The slow creep of OF tendrils continues unabated. Cut one off, another grows back.

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Super_Hans said:

Hopefully our colts team will join them.

 

I don't know, I want to see Hearts with the strongest possible 11 on the pitch.

How many footballers do we have to actually employ and how much does that dilute our budget for the reason we exist?

 

I'm not necessarily against it, but I'd like to hear proper arguments for and against.

[Sooks]

14 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't know, I want to see Hearts with the strongest possible 11 on the pitch.

How many footballers do we have to actually employ and how much does that dilute our budget for the reason we exist?

 

I'm not necessarily against it, but I'd like to hear proper arguments for and against.

Hopefully we would do it properly and have separate funding in place as well similar to the women team

 

1 hour ago, Hmfc1965 said:

I doubt we'd go straight in to the Lowland League though. 

Nor should we in principle but one rule for one ..........

If we go down this route we should go in at exactly the same level as the old firm

[Alan_R]

28 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I don't know, I want to see Hearts with the strongest possible 11 on the pitch.

How many footballers do we have to actually employ and how much does that dilute our budget for the reason we exist?

 

I'm not necessarily against it, but I'd like to hear proper arguments for and against.

Agree with you.

 

For example, how different would it be for some kid banging them in, in the lowland league or whatever compared to say Henderson scoring frequently for alloa.

 

Other than them playing together and potentially developing a 'club style' I'm still unsure about the benefits of it for a club of our size and budget.

 

Would we not be better improving scouting at youth and lower league level and have plans in place to better develop them? Granted maybe a colts team would help do exactly that?

 

[The Treasurer]

I will be shocked if anyone is shocked by this news 

[Footballfirst]

Lowland League GM agenda

 

A General Meeting will take place at the ………….. on Monday 21 March 2022 with a 19:30 start and the following agenda:
1. Apologies for absence
2. Minute of previous General Meeting
3. Fanbase presentation
4. Increased promotion/relegation between Tiers 5 and 6
5. National cup competition for non-SPFL clubs
6. Guest club participation
7. Any Other Business

 

I'm happy to see item "4" but "6" should not even be a consideration, given the way that the "B" teams have treated the competition, postponing games at a whim.

[Hungry hippo]

2 hours ago, milky_26 said:

so much for one season only, 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10604773/Celtic-Rangers-B-teams-set-stay-Scotlands-Lowland-League-season.html

 

for those who do not want to click the link, both arse cheek colts are to present their cases to remain in the lowland league next season

 

To be fair, no-one claimed it was for one season only. The Lowland teams just didn't commit to anything more than one season which made sense in case it was a disaster.

 

They were always going to review it after the season and continue it if the clubs were happy enough with it.

[LarrysRightFoot]

Said before and I’ll say it again I’m for Colts and want us involved. 

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

Said before and I’ll say it again I’m for Colts and want us involved. 

👍

[Mikey1874]

All these Rangers and Celtic Colt players getting into first team too. And knocking on door for Scotland.

 

Saving Scottish football.

[kingantti1874]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

Said before and I’ll say it again I’m for Colts and want us involved. 

same

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

To be fair, no-one claimed it was for one season only. The Lowland teams just didn't commit to anything more than one season which made sense in case it was a disaster.

 

They were always going to review it after the season and continue it if the clubs were happy enough with it.

 

They did claim it was for one season only

[LarrysRightFoot]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

All these Rangers and Celtic Colt players getting into first team too. And knocking on door for Scotland.

 

Saving Scottish football.

After less than one season. Give it a chance. 

[part_time_jambo]

6 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

To be fair, no-one claimed it was for one season only. The Lowland teams just didn't commit to anything more than one season which made sense in case it was a disaster.

 

They were always going to review it after the season and continue it if the clubs were happy enough with it.

They definitely did state it was only for one season. They should be told their one season is over and to apply to join the bottom division of the pyramid system. Most of the teams are from West Lothian so their colts supporters won't have to travel far. That would allow two more deserving teams to be promoted from the division below.

Edited March 12, 2022 by part_time_jambo

[Mikey1874]

4 hours ago, part_time_jambo said:

They definitely did state it was only for one season. They should be told their one season is over and to apply to join the bottom division of the pyramid system. Most of the teams are from West Lothian so their colts supporters won't have to travel far. That would allow two more deserving teams to be promoted from the division below.

 

One season in Lowland League then straight into League Two was the original plan I think. 

 

But have to make do with Lowland League. They'll be happier next season if one of them wins the league. 

[Hungry hippo]

5 hours ago, part_time_jambo said:

They definitely did state it was only for one season. They should be told their one season is over and to apply to join the bottom division of the pyramid system. Most of the teams are from West Lothian so their colts supporters won't have to travel far. That would allow two more deserving teams to be promoted from the division below.

 

As I said in my previous post, there absolutely was a one year agreement reached with the Lowland League. That is very different from saying it was a 1 season maximum. The Old Firm have openly been looking to have their Colt teams play at as high a level as possible for the long term.

 

It isn't true that they were only looking to do this for one season and I can't locate any articles that say otherwise.

 

The league were always going to look at the situation at the end of the one season that was approved. If it was disastrous the colts would be told to GTF. If is was a big success with major boosts to crowds (as promised) then it would almost certainly get extended.

 

The reality has been more in the middle ground that the benefits have been pretty negligible for the other teams with crowds for the Colt games nothing special. Issues with the Colt teams apparently struggling to field teams haven't been great either. I think the OF paid cash to get in the league which would a definite positive for the teams with such low turnover.

 

The Lowland are in a decent negotiating position with the Old Firm now as they've not got much to lose and I expect they'll try to get some issues resolved (eg ensuring fixtures fulfilled on agreed dates) and they'll  probably agree another short term solution - maybe 2 or 3 seasons as a sort of extended trial.

[Saint Jambo]

1 hour ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

As I said in my previous post, there absolutely was a one year agreement reached with the Lowland League. That is very different from saying it was a 1 season maximum. The Old Firm have openly been looking to have their Colt teams play at as high a level as possible for the long term.

 

It isn't true that they were only looking to do this for one season and I can't locate any articles that say otherwise.

 

The league were always going to look at the situation at the end of the one season that was approved. If it was disastrous the colts would be told to GTF. If is was a big success with major boosts to crowds (as promised) then it would almost certainly get extended.

 

The reality has been more in the middle ground that the benefits have been pretty negligible for the other teams with crowds for the Colt games nothing special. Issues with the Colt teams apparently struggling to field teams haven't been great either. I think the OF paid cash to get in the league which would a definite positive for the teams with such low turnover.

 

The Lowland are in a decent negotiating position with the Old Firm now as they've not got much to lose and I expect they'll try to get some issues resolved (eg ensuring fixtures fulfilled on agreed dates) and they'll  probably agree another short term solution - maybe 2 or 3 seasons as a sort of extended trial.

 

Asked if the clubs would leave the Lowland League at the end of next season even if their SPFL proposal wasn't successful, [Lowland League Chairman George] Fraser added: "That is correct. It is a one-year deal."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/celtic-rangers-colts-categorically-one-24053717

[Sarah O]

15 hours ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

Said before and I’ll say it again I’m for Colts and want us involved. 

Obviously not a fan of the Lowland League then I take it? 

[LarrysRightFoot]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

Obviously not a fan of the Lowland League then I take it? 

Tbh there’s one team local to me and when the LL first stated I paid attention to their results but my interest dropped off a while ago. 
 

I like the premise and think below 2 (or 3 at the very most) national leagues we should have a pyramid regionalised structure. 

[Nookie Bear]

If this has been a trial then surely part of that trial is for other clubs to see if the Colts concept works for them as well. 
 

On that basis, if it is to carry on then it should be opened to other professional clubs. 

[part_time_jambo]

9 hours ago, Hungry hippo said:

 

As I said in my previous post, there absolutely was a one year agreement reached with the Lowland League. That is very different from saying it was a 1 season maximum. The Old Firm have openly been looking to have their Colt teams play at as high a level as possible for the long term.

 

It isn't true that they were only looking to do this for one season and I can't locate any articles that say otherwise.

 

The league were always going to look at the situation at the end of the one season that was approved. If it was disastrous the colts would be told to GTF. If is was a big success with major boosts to crowds (as promised) then it would almost certainly get extended.

 

The reality has been more in the middle ground that the benefits have been pretty negligible for the other teams with crowds for the Colt games nothing special. Issues with the Colt teams apparently struggling to field teams haven't been great either. I think the OF paid cash to get in the league which would a definite positive for the teams with such low turnover.

 

The Lowland are in a decent negotiating position with the Old Firm now as they've not got much to lose and I expect they'll try to get some issues resolved (eg ensuring fixtures fulfilled on agreed dates) and they'll  probably agree another short term solution - maybe 2 or 3 seasons as a sort of extended trial.

Sorry, but your interpretation of the agreement is wrong. It was stated at the time that it was for one season only.

Obviously everyone knows that was a ploy, but if the arrangement continues, surely the Lowland League Chairman must resign, given the comments he made at the time about it only being for one year.

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

If this has been a trial then surely part of that trial is for other clubs to see if the Colts concept works for them as well. 
 

On that basis, if it is to carry on then it should be opened to other professional clubs. 

 

It carries on until the Colt teams get into League Two. If there is no chance of that happening it will stop. 

[Mikey1874]

19 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

All these Rangers and Celtic Colt players getting into first team too. And knocking on door for Scotland.

 

Saving Scottish football.

 

15 hours ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

After less than one season. Give it a chance. 

 

So what's your time frame? 

 

When do the Colts players start improving Scottish football? 

[RobboM]

58 minutes ago, part_time_jambo said:

Sorry, but your interpretation of the agreement is wrong. It was stated at the time that it was for one season only.

Obviously everyone knows that was a ploy, but if the arrangement continues, surely the Lowland League Chairman must resign, given the comments he made at the time about it only being for one year.

He resigned in Sept and it was the fallout from the OF Colts that done for him.

[LarrysRightFoot]

27 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

So what's your time frame? 

 

When do the Colts players start improving Scottish football? 

More than a season anyway, what an utterly ridiculous suggestion. 
 

You know what, it may not work but it might! Realistically you’d be talking probably 5 years at minimum IMO. 
 

What I don’t like is people assuming any change has to be permanent. If there’s no benefit in a realistic time frame I’m sure clubs would pull out, things would change. 

[Hungry hippo]

8 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

Asked if the clubs would leave the Lowland League at the end of next season even if their SPFL proposal wasn't successful, [Lowland League Chairman George] Fraser added: "That is correct. It is a one-year deal."

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/celtic-rangers-colts-categorically-one-24053717

 

I apologise and stand corrected. Thanks for finding that from the Lowland chairman.

 

So he was basically saying that one season was all that was necessary because the colts were going to try again for League 2 this summer. That was crazy as there was no chance the opposition to the proposals in the SPFL for League 2 entry was magically going to change in a year. 

 

The promised benefits to the other clubs haven't really materialised so it could be a tougher sell this time round. Could need a significant financial contribution from the Old Firm to swing it.

[Mikey1874]

20 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

More than a season anyway, what an utterly ridiculous suggestion. 
 

You know what, it may not work but it might! Realistically you’d be talking probably 5 years at minimum IMO. 
 

What I don’t like is people assuming any change has to be permanent. If there’s no benefit in a realistic time frame I’m sure clubs would pull out, things would change. 

 

So explain the benefits of the players who will save Scottish football  playing Dalbeattie Star and Edinburgh University. 

 

How does it work exactly? 

[LarrysRightFoot]

34 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So explain the benefits of the players who will save Scottish football  playing Dalbeattie Star and Edinburgh University. 

 

How does it work exactly? 

It introduces them to competitive mens football. Reserve/unders football is sterile. 
 

If there was no benefit why do the German and Spanish leagues do it? 

[milky_26]

Just now, LarrysRightFoot said:

It introduces them to competitive mens football. Reserve/unders football is sterile. 
 

If there was no benefit why do the German and Spanish leagues do it? 

then what benefit is there if only two clubs are allowed colts?

[LarrysRightFoot]

Just now, milky_26 said:

then what benefit is there if only two clubs are allowed colts?

I’m for us being involved not only the OF, hopefully this has been an experiment to test the water and it opens it up for us and others. 
 

Again, IMO, it should be incorporated into an overhaul of the league structure. 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

It introduces them to competitive mens football. Reserve/unders football is sterile. 
 

If there was no benefit why do the German and Spanish leagues do it? 

 

It's not competitive. 

 

Celtic and Rangers Colts position in league is irrelevant. They cannot be relegated or promoted. 

 

Though to be fair winning league will probably go on their honours board. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Mikey1874

[LarrysRightFoot]

14 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's not competitive. 

 

Celtic and Rangers Colts position in league is irrelevant. They cannot be relegated or promoted. 

 

Though to be fair winning league will probably go on their honours board. 

Again I don’t think it’s right they can’t get promoted (it should be capped at a certain level). 
 

But to say it’s not competitive because they can’t get promoted is forgetting there’s another team on the park. 

[Mikey1874]

8 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

Again I don’t think it’s right they can’t get promoted (it should be capped at a certain level). 
 

But to say it’s not competitive because they can’t get promoted is forgetting there’s another team on the park. 

 

You're forgetting the standard of opposition.

 

Maybe some of the Colts players will end up playing in League 2.

 

How does that improve Scottish football?

[LarrysRightFoot]

As I said it’s an introduction to mens competitive football. It’s a pathway to the 1st team and a far better gauge of if a player will make it than playing unders football against the same players you’ve played against for 10 years. 
 

I suppose to counter your argument why would we send players out on loan? 

[milky_26]

1 hour ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

It introduces them to competitive mens football. Reserve/unders football is sterile. 
 

If there was no benefit why do the German and Spanish leagues do it? 

 

48 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

Again I don’t think it’s right they can’t get promoted (it should be capped at a certain level). 
 

But to say it’s not competitive because they can’t get promoted is forgetting there’s another team on the park. 

you've contradicted yourself. in reserve football there is another team on the park so from your reasoning it is competitive

[Mikey1874]

21 minutes ago, LarrysRightFoot said:

As I said it’s an introduction to mens competitive football. It’s a pathway to the 1st team and a far better gauge of if a player will make it than playing unders football against the same players you’ve played against for 10 years. 
 

I suppose to counter your argument why would we send players out on loan? 

 

You want to play at a decent level. You think we'd be better all players in Lowland instead of up to Championship level? 

 

Celtic and Rangers don't have any intention of putting Colt players in first team. Maybe the odd one will get on subs bench. They want to have another place of power. Ultimately a B team to replace the first team if they play in another league. 

[Nookie Bear]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It carries on until the Colt teams get into League Two. If there is no chance of that happening it will stop. 

Of course. 
 

Almost as if the old firm want someone to keep their seats warm in Scottish football whilst they feck off to a European League 🤔

[Mikey1874]

Celtic have set the bar. They had a Boys Club providing first team players over a near 20 year period pretty successfully. They played in tournaments in Europe and England as well domestically. Trying to play at a high standard. They didn't play in the Lowland league.

 

Over a more recent period they produced Tierney, Forrest and McGregor a decent return I'd say. They didn't play in the Lowland League. 

 

For whatever reason there haven't been really good youth prospects recently. See how Ralston develops. Guys like Henderson not quite there. And they've gone all in for foreign purchases. No one from  Lowland League squad near to first team squad. I accept maybe it's too early. But they said this would improve Scottish football. 

[Blackford Hearts]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

It's not competitive. 

 

Celtic and Rangers Colts position in league is irrelevant. They cannot be relegated or promoted. 

 

Though to be fair winning league will probably go on their honours board. 

In Sevco’s case will be another star above their badge 

[LarrysRightFoot]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

 

you've contradicted yourself. in reserve football there is another team on the park so from your reasoning it is competitive

Eh? The other team in the reserve league gave nothing to play for either! The other teams in LL would have something to play for. 

[LarrysRightFoot]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You want to play at a decent level. You think we'd be better all players in Lowland instead of up to Championship level? 

 

Celtic and Rangers don't have any intention of putting Colt players in first team. Maybe the odd one will get on subs bench. They want to have another place of power. Ultimately a B team to replace the first team if they play in another league. 

Yes, that’s why I believe Colts should be allowed to be promoted to a certain level. However, we currently send players to League 2 and below on loan. 
 

Craig Gordon and Robbie Neilson both were on loan at Cowdenbeath. Craig Halkett (obvs not from us) was on loan at Berwick. I’m sure there’s plenty more recent examples (not just from us). 

Edited March 13, 2022 by LarrysRightFoot