Why do we insist on playing youngsters who won’t make it?

[Neil Dongcaster]

7 hours ago, Funtime Jambo said:

All decent YOUNG players in my eyes where ever they end up good luck to them in these difficult times,done something 99% of us can only dream of poor post Neil Dongcaster.

Sentimental pish. We finished bottom of the league and have underachieved for years due to mismanagement and poor decisions. These poor decisions include playing players nowhere near good enough for Hearts.

 

At our level good young players stand out very quickly. Some fade such as Cochrane and some go onto play at a higher level such as Hickey.

 

I cannot remember a youth player having a poor couple of breakthrough games and then going on to prove everyone wrong and be an important player for us with any real value. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Leveins Battalion]

i8 has a point to be fair 🤣🤣

[Finlay James]

The simple answer is that we persist with young players to see if they are going to make it at our level.  If we don't try them, we will never know.  Hearts are of course the only club în world football who do this whereas all the others play youngsters who are instant superstars.

[TheBigO]

42 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Sentimental pish. We finished bottom of the league and have underachieved for years due to mismanagement and poor decisions. These poor decisions include playing players nowhere near good enough for Hearts.

 

At our level good young players stand out very quickly. Some fade such as Cochrane and some go onto play at a higher level such as Hickey.

 

I cannot remember a youth player having a poor couple of breakthrough games and then going on to prove everyone wrong and be an important player for us with any real value. Feel free to prove me wrong.

When Andy Irving played his first few games I didn't see anything in him. He looked lost.

 

Turns out it was just too early for him. Never know, that early exposure maybe even helped him.

[Neil Dongcaster]

6 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

When Andy Irving played his first few games I didn't see anything in him. He looked lost.

 

Turns out it was just too early for him. Never know, that early exposure maybe even helped him.

Aye? Didn’t he start in a 3-0 win and setup a goal and create about 6 other chances on his debut? What else did you want from the laddie? 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Neil Dongcaster

[TheBigO]

36 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Aye? Didn’t he start in a 3-0 win and setup a goal and create about 6 other chances on his debut? What else did you want from the laddie? 

Just saying dons fans I know thought he was a huddy. They're generally pretty reasonable. My mates, not dons fans, they're generally fuds.

 

As I say, doesn't mean too much. He was young at the time I think, maybe 22, first time out of English leagues etc. Not against him as an option at all.

 

The option of GMS, Ginelly, Smith, Kingsley and Irving all supplying crosses to Stockley with Boyce and/or Naismith in there too. Pretty appealing.

 

Imo, for years, despite our hoofy, big team rep, we've actually been far far too slow in build up. There's been this focus on pass pass pass, but we've not had the dynamism to make that work, so it's all been across the back line and then get rid under pressure. We don't manage to get players between lines and turned often enough.

 

So a move to a more direct game, I'm well up for. That doesn't mean direct to the CF, but get it wide early and attack fullbacks. Irving in the middle picking passes out wide, another midfielder capable of arriving late in the box to join a good target man and a poacher (Haring is good at this at his best). Sounds good to me. I guess the drawback is being outnumbered and maybe not having solid defensive acumen in midfield, so that'd need worked on. Get Andy I working like the clappers on his defending!!!

[I.T.K]

I'm trying to think what our best all time youth 11 would be

 

Gordon

 

Wallace

Berra 

McGowan 

Patterson

 

Hickey

Holt

Lockie

Walker

 

 

Robbo

Weir*

 

 

 

* I gave up.... should not be hard to improve. 

[Debut 4]

Many things get thrown into the mix of course but a big part is having the eye for young players and also being able to manage properly those players you promote. 
 

I often look back at JJs first spell and how he brought on Locke and co.  But these laddies also had a real hunger about them , they had no fear and really “wanted it”.  

[indianajones]

Its pretty frustrating. 

 

One of the few that looks any decent is in danger of not signing a new contract.

 

We lost Paterson to Cardiff for peanuts and Hickey before we got the best from him. 

[Neil Dongcaster]

21 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Just saying dons fans I know thought he was a huddy. They're generally pretty reasonable. My mates, not dons fans, they're generally fuds.

 

As I say, doesn't mean too much. He was young at the time I think, maybe 22, first time out of English leagues etc. Not against him as an option at all.

What has this got to do with Andy Irving’s first few games?

[DS98]

What a shit thread. Tell me a team around the same size at Hearts that have a conveyor belt of superstar youngsters. That’s right, there is none. The fact is for the past 20 odd years Scotland as a whole have produced pish players and for the past few years any youngster with an ounce of ability has moved down south or abroad. Who have Hibs brought through recently? Cart horse Porteous and a couple of Hearts rejects. 

[Thomaso]

15 minutes ago, I.T.K said:

I'm trying to think what our best all time youth 11 would be

 

Gordon

 

Wallace

Berra 

McGowan 

Patterson

 

Hickey

Holt

Lockie

Walker

 

 

Robbo

Weir*

 

 

 

* I gave up.... should not be hard to improve. 

Gary Mackay

Dave Bowman

Eamon Bannon

[buzzbomb]

4 minutes ago, DS98 said:

What a shit thread. Tell me a team around the same size at Hearts that have a conveyor belt of superstar youngsters. That’s right, there is none. The fact is for the past 20 odd years Scotland as a whole have produced pish players and for the past few years any youngster with an ounce of ability has moved down south or abroad. Who have Hibs brought through recently? Cart horse Porteous and a couple of Hearts rejects. 

Sunderland bidding for one of those Hearts rejects today.

[TheBigO]

6 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

What has this got to do with Andy Irving’s first few games?

Very, very little.  Some would say nothing at all.

 

Got my threads confused and was talking Jayden Stockley!

 

As for Andy I.  In his first run, he just didn't look ready at all imo.  I'm talking his run of games, not just debut.  And my point is not anti-Irving, quite the opposite.

[TheBigO]

18 minutes ago, I.T.K said:

I'm trying to think what our best all time youth 11 would be

 

Gordon

 

Wallace

Berra 

McGowan 

Patterson

 

Hickey

Holt

Lockie

Walker

 

 

Robbo

Weir*

 

 

 

* I gave up.... should not be hard to improve. 

All time possibly not the best term here!!  Not sure Graeme Weir was better than Willie Bauld! (not sure how we're defining youth here of course, I may be being a tad facetious!) 

 

Paul Ritchie was better than Ryan McGowan.  Alan McLaren better than both, and possibly better than everyone in your team bar Robbo and Gordon.

 

There should be a place for Kostadinov too.

[May one-six]

17 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Sunderland bidding for one of those Hearts rejects today.

This suggests the OP has got things the wrong way round and we're letting promising players go far too easily.

[Neil Dongcaster]

4 minutes ago, May one-six said:

This suggests the OP has got things the wrong way round and we're letting promising players go far too easily.

Who have Sunderland bid for?

[Deevers]

4 minutes ago, May one-six said:

This suggests the OP has got things the wrong way round and we're letting promising players go far too easily.

It’s maybe a case of having a closer look at who makes the decisions about who we keep and who we ditch. There have been one or two who have blossomed after being released by us.

[Disco Dave]

On 16/01/2021 at 15:35, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

I generally agree that we’re not seeing enough quality coming through lately but wee question for you specifically re your post. How do you know if they will make the grade in the first team if you dont give them a chance? Not just the last 15 mins of a dead rubber..... they need to have played in a decent number of semi meaningful games to find that out surely?

 

As someone else posted, in ideal situation you have a core squad of 18 or so where the majority of the wage bill should be focussed and then supplement the rest of the squad with the younger players on low wages.  Within that, you hope you will find the odd Hickey or Irving and if you are really really lucky you’ll find a John Robertson or Craig Gordon. The reality for a club our size though is the very best young talent will get gobbled up by bigger clubs down south or sadly the old firm.

[Neil Dongcaster]

4 minutes ago, Disco Dave said:

I generally agree that we’re not seeing enough quality coming through lately but wee question for you specifically re your post. How do you know if they will make the grade in the first team if you dont give them a chance? Not just the last 15 mins of a dead rubber..... they need to have played in a decent number of semi meaningful games to find that out surely?

 

As someone else posted, in ideal situation you have a core squad of 18 or so where the majority of the wage bill should be focussed and then supplement the rest of the squad with the younger players on low wages.  Within that, you hope you will find the odd Hickey or Irving and if you are really really lucky you’ll find a John Robertson or Craig Gordon. The reality for a club our size though is the very best young talent will get gobbled up by bigger clubs down south or sadly the old firm.

Through the loan system.

 

It speaks volumes to me that, as an example the likes of Hamilton never seem that interested in taking our young players on loan. It would suggest to me that they don’t seem them any better than their young players or good enough to improve their squad.

 

We also seem to send our players down to lower championship or league one level and then throw them into our first team. It just strikes me as very odd.

 

 

[May one-six]

11 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Who have Sunderland bid for?

You'd have to ask Buzzbomb that. I do know that we've let people go who have gone on to have decent careers. As Deevers has said, the trick is identifying the ones who are worth persisting with.

[buzzbomb]

2 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Through the loan system.

 

It speaks volumes to me that, as an example the likes of Hamilton never seem that interested in taking our young players on loan. It would suggest to me that they don’t seem them any better than their young players or good enough to improve their squad.

 

We also seem to send our players down to lower championship or league one level and then throw them into our first team. It just strikes me as very odd.

 

 

Why would Hamilton want to develop our young players rather than their own, who they’ll want to develop and sell on..?

[Des Lynam]

The main problem for me with the youngsters coming through is they all look so devoid of confidence. None have any sort of a swagger that you think oh there’s a player there. They look like North Korean athletes frightened their families will go missing if they **** up. 

[jamboinglasgow]

2 hours ago, Finlay James said:

The simple answer is that we persist with young players to see if they are going to make it at our level.  If we don't try them, we will never know.  Hearts are of course the only club în world football who do this whereas all the others play youngsters who are instant superstars.

 

Exactly. I think some fans think that unless you look great in your first couple of appearances then you are not good enough. The failure of thinking in football fans is that players develop at the same way.

 

That said there is definately a failure to get more young players into the first team, ready to develop further. Hearts have identified it as a problem and from all the talk from Ann Budge from months ago and the AGM there is a plan in place. Whether that bares fruit is still to be seen, but would love to know more about what they are doing.

[jamboinglasgow]

20 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Who have Sunderland bid for?

 

I'm persuming Josh Doig.

[Neil Dongcaster]

Just now, buzzbomb said:

Why would Hamilton want to develop our young players rather than their own, who they’ll want to develop and sell on..?

Who is the Hearts reject Sunderland have bid for?

 

To answer your question, probably for the same reason we take players on loan from larger clubs.

[Disco Dave]

9 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Through the loan system.

 

It speaks volumes to me that, as an example the likes of Hamilton never seem that interested in taking our young players on loan. It would suggest to me that they don’t seem them any better than their young players or good enough to improve their squad.

 

We also seem to send our players down to lower championship or league one level and then throw them into our first team. It just strikes me as very odd.

 

 

You’ve said our approach is odd.  What would you do? I dont think Hamilton would develop our players over their own........ that has been a reasonably successful income stream for them.... mainly because they cant afford a big squad but have no choice but to give these guys a chance.

[buzzbomb]

6 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Who is the Hearts reject Sunderland have bid for?

 

To answer your question, probably for the same reason we take players on loan from larger clubs.

They’re contacting hibs about josh doig

[WageThief]

1 hour ago, I.T.K said:

I'm trying to think what our best all time youth 11 would be

 

Gordon

 

Wallace

Berra 

McGowan 

Patterson

 

Hickey

Holt

Lockie

Walker

 

 

Robbo

Weir*

 

 

 

* I gave up.... should not be hard to improve. 

 

Why is Hickey playing at left-midfield.  Jason Holt?  Graeme Weir?

 

I presume that is Jamie Walker at right-mid rather than Tommy Walker?

 

I think I'd replace everyone except Gordon and Robbo 😂

 

[Neil Dongcaster]

2 minutes ago, Disco Dave said:

You’ve said our approach is odd.  What would you do? I dont think Hamilton would develop our players over their own........ that has been a reasonably successful income stream for them.... mainly because they cant afford a big squad but have no choice but to give these guys a chance.

I wouldn’t expect Hamilton to develop our players over their own however I do expect teams to sign players who improve their teams. Hamilton currently have 7 players signed on loan so the argument about developing other teams players doesn’t really hold up for me.

[Neil Dongcaster]

4 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

They’re contacting hibs about josh doig

Link?

[buzzbomb]

1 minute ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Link?

It’s not a link

[Neil Dongcaster]

1 minute ago, buzzbomb said:

It’s not a link

So just a random rumour at this point? For what it’s worth, as it stands Hearts made the right decision on Doig considering we got a hefty fee for Hickey.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Neil Dongcaster

[TheBigO]

I'm not sure Neil Dongcaster is doing overly well on this thread.

 

Guys can look briliant in training, even do well on loan (Callumn Morrison had great loan spells), but simply not cut it.  They need more than a few chances to not cut it.  There are hundreds of thousands of examples of this throughout football.

 

The name Steven Husband jumps out.  Left us for apparently bigger things, was very very highly rated.  Hasn't made it in the game.  A good, even great, youth career can mean nothing.  but you don't know that until they play a few games at first team level.  Sean McKirdy was massively rated, didn't make it.  Every team in the world will have similar stories in the hundreds.  So you get Hickey, who kind of came from nowhere, you get Andy Irving and hopefully we have some more on their way. 

 

Will Stone, Flatman, Hamilton, McGill, Cochrane, Ward, Logan etc all make it?  No.  Will they all follow different paths, some of them maybe getting a number of appearances before heading somewhere else down the food chain?  Probably.  Will one or two of them be the next Hickey, or Irving, or even Berra, Gordon, Paterson?  Well, hopefully.  Obviously.

 

Why does someone like Ewan Henderson keep getting more and more chances is perhaps a better question?  But even then, without being at training every day, we can't answer that.  My guess is he's doing well and tends to do well on a daily basis, enough for a number of managers now to think he's worth persevering with.  He'll be close to last chance saloon you'd think, though.

 

Why don't Hamilton take players on loan from us?  Why don't we from Celtic?

[Neil Dongcaster]

7 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

I'm not sure Neil Dongcaster is doing overly well on this thread.

 

Why does someone like Ewan Henderson keep getting more and more chances is perhaps a better question?  

Have you even read the thread? Or are you getting mixed up again?

 

The ‘better question’ you ask is literally the topic of the thread.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Neil Dongcaster

[buzzbomb]

20 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

So just a random rumour at this point? For what it’s worth, as it stands Hearts made the right decision on Doig considering we got a hefty fee for Hickey.

I’m not even arguing with you. I was responding to someone else commenting on hearts rejects. Regarding Doigy/hickey though your comment doesn’t make sense. Doig can also play left centre half. It didn’t need to be either or. The source is impeccable, not a random rumour. 

[Boyces beard]

Regarding the Hickey/Doig scenario, the fact that Hickey was just as competent at right back meant we really should have offered Josh a contract. It was strange he was allowed to leave because it was quite obvious he was a tallented lad.

[OTT]

On 16/01/2021 at 15:35, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

 

I actually don't think we've been doing all that good a job in youth development. I don't think we've brought through enough and to date there is one success story in 6 years which is so far from good enough its embarrassing. 

 

In regards to the ones not being good enough, I think if we want to be seen as a club that is committed to youth development we need to show that we're giving youngsters the opportunity to succeed. Morrison above the rest of them in particular is bloody annoying as he was on fire in his previous at Stirling Albion and looked physically capable of making the step up but for some reason choked big time. He's only 21 but its a real shame it didn't happen for him. I do think we'll see him playing top flight football eventually though. 

 

Anyway, we want better youngsters to follow Hickey and make a brave decision? We have to play the ones we have and hopefully do better at integrating them into the team. I think we're at a point where hopefully Savage is looking at the academy and how it can be improved. Lets face it, the majority are coaches who Levein appointed, Arnott was a Levein appointment etc. I think the results speak for themselves both at first team level and in the academy and its perhaps time to look at the quality of our coaches and seeing if we can improve on them. 

[bajthejambo]

An ex player told me that Henderson was rated as one of the best young players to come through the system in years. That was by Levein and his staff I must add. 

 

The ex player said he couldn't see it himself, in fairness. Some players simply can't make the transition to first team/professional footballer.

 

 

[TheBigO]

11 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Have you even read the thread? Or are you getting mixed up again?

 

The ‘better question’ you ask is literally the topic of the thread.

Yup, but you've gone beyond that imo.  I simply don't think the guys you've listed got too many chances.  The issue has lay more around what has been around them at the time.  The question in the OP is why do we play them and you're comment suggest you mean "at all".  And that's daft, if it is what you mean.  Sorry if I've picked you up wrong, but I'm meant to be working, so not concentrating!!

 

We were constantly doing things like bringing kids out the cold to play against the OF, or playing a young winger in front of a young FB, when there was no need to do so.  We've basically been at a low ebb.  Also, who was coaching these guys?  The setup seemed all over the place.  Essentially we've been shit.  It has been very rare in the last 3/4 years that any kids have been able to be brought in and given opportunities in a steady, confident team.  That matters.

 

Robbie is a very steady hand.  If he stays for the next 3 years, it feels more likely the kids will have better environment to have their chances.  The only concern/argument would be he does love a tinker (i don't mean he'll sign McGeady).  I'd rather see a very settled team with kids getting chances either at the right times or when we have to through injury etc.  When did we last bring on a kid for his debut when we ere 3 goals up and let him go enjoy it!?!?!?!  May be remembering it wrongly, but was that not the case with Kevin Thomas and he scored?

 

If a kid takes his chance then he's next in line instead of signing someone new.  So Smith gets injured and Brandon is suspended.  Logan comes in for a couple of games and does really well.  Ok, he overtakes Brandon, and he's groomed at Smith's replacement, getting minutes when we're winning or any time we can basically.  Similar for Flatman with the CHs or McGill in CM etc.  That next step which sees them more part of the squad and pick up another 10-15 appearances is the test.  Just checked and Henderson has only made 26 appearances for us.  And how many were in a team struggling?

[Francis Albert]

There is certainly something amiss with how we bring players in from the Academy. Too many of our youngsters look promising early on but then seem to go backwards rather than develop further. In the "Reminiscing with Legends" book Jeffries says that he always rested youngsters when they had a string of good performances rather than wait until they had an inevitable dip in form and then drop them. He felt that psychologically this did less damage to a player's confidence. His track record suggests there is something in that.

 

 

[DS98]

2 hours ago, buzzbomb said:

Sunderland bidding for one of those Hearts rejects today.

Still doesn’t change the fact. 
 

Deemed not good enough for Hearts. Better players in their position. So released = Hearts reject.

 

I’d agree there is an argument for consistency when making these decisions. Someone must have decided Doig wasn’t good enough to progress to the first team but Jamie Brandon was. 

[buzzbomb]

31 minutes ago, DS98 said:

Still doesn’t change the fact. 
 

Deemed not good enough for Hearts. Better players in their position. So released = Hearts reject.

 

I’d agree there is an argument for consistency when making these decisions. Someone must have decided Doig wasn’t good enough to progress to the first team but Jamie Brandon was. 

Aye, nae bother

[kingantti1874]

How do you know of they will make it or not without giving them a chance? 

[Finlay James]

25 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Exactly. I think some fans think that unless you look great in your first couple of appearances then you are not good enough. The failure of thinking in football fans is that players develop at the same way.

 

That said there is definately a failure to get more young players into the first team, ready to develop further. Hearts have identified it as a problem and from all the talk from Ann Budge from months ago and the AGM there is a plan in place. Whether that bares fruit is still to be seen, but would love to know more about what they are doing.

 

I assume that bringing in the SD is part of the review of youth development.  Joe Savage obviously comes with a strong background in scouting so I hope he is looking closely at the quality of those we bring through but more importantly, the pathway from youths to reserves to first team because there has been a blocker in that area for some reason.

 

im really encouraged by the potential of Cammy Logan, Connor Smith and Leo Watson and from the reports from Montrose, Harry Cochrane is developing well also.  Hopefully, Robbie sees a pathway to the first team for these guy s and puts an end to signings such as Damour, Martin etc going forward.

[jamboinglasgow]

1 minute ago, Finlay James said:

 

I assume that bringing in the SD is part of the review of youth development.  Joe Savage obviously comes with a strong background in scouting so I hope he is looking closely at the quality of those we bring through but more importantly, the pathway from youths to reserves to first team because there has been a blocker in that area for some reason.

 

im really encouraged by the potential of Cammy Logan, Connor Smith and Leo Watson and from the reports from Montrose, Harry Cochrane is developing well also.  Hopefully, Robbie sees a pathway to the first team for these guy s and puts an end to signings such as Damour, Martin etc going forward.

 

From everything I have seen Ann talk about it, it was identified the issue is that at 16 when academy players sign pro-contracts that they are given less focus than they had before.  Here is what she said back in August 

 

“The players get through and there seems to be a bit of a disjoint. They get their first contract but in the academy they are almost mothered,” she said.

“They're constantly getting one-to-one tuition, they get their contract and I just feel suddenly they are on their own.

“We have this young 16-year-old and what do we have to do for him to fast-track his career? I think we have to focus more on that.

“Our objective is still to get the process of academy to first contract to first-team player working because there is a bit of it which didn't work.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-unveil-plans-new-first-team-wage-structure-2955130

 

And in her AGM statement she said:

"We were in the midst of a major recruitment programme aimed at further growing and developing the Club.  We were looking to recruit a Head of Performance, a Chief Executive and a Sporting Director. Our Head of Performance started 6 weeks before football was suspended. We will focus on developing our key young players, both in the men’s and the women’s squads, to ensure we have a steady supply of the best young talent in Scotland moving forward. We are in the process of implementing a new High Performance Player Programme which will see a stronger focus on the individual development of our brightest young stars. We are also looking at introducing a similar programme for our best young talent in the Academy."

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-statement-1-2-3-4-5-6

 

I agree with you on the potential. The first team needs to be rebalanced, to allow the pathway for these players (I also think the club may need to take serious look at players and move on some who may be better leaving for first team football (for example I like Brandon but he will not be 1st choice, he would be better going to a club which will give him that and build from it, same with Moore.)

[DS98]

1 hour ago, buzzbomb said:

Aye, nae bother

Sorry Mr Doig. But your laddie is pish 

[buzzbomb]

15 minutes ago, DS98 said:

Sorry Mr Doig. But your laddie is pish 

Except I’m not Mr Doig and you’re still talking pish.

[JDK2020]

How else do you know if a young player has got it for the cut and thrust of professional football if you don't try them in that environment? 

Players can be great in training and/or bounce games but it's only in front of noisy capacity crowds with something at stake that you find out their true mettle. 

Even apparently model professionals, great trainers, and the like, need to be tested under fire to get an understanding of whether they are going to cut it when the real questions are being asked of them.

[OTT]

3 hours ago, jambo3tevie said:

Regarding the Hickey/Doig scenario, the fact that Hickey was just as competent at right back meant we really should have offered Josh a contract. It was strange he was allowed to leave because it was quite obvious he was a tallented lad.

 

Seems pretty silly. A lad as talented as Hickey is going to attract immediate attention because he is a special talent. A club with limited financial resources isn't going to hold onto a lad like Hickey for long. Doig could have easily been out on loan whilst Hickey was putting himself in the shop window. We were never keeping Hickey beyond his first contract anyway. 

 

IIRC (maybe someone more ITK with the youth stuff can correct/verify) did Rangers not have Gilmour and Cochrane on their books at the same time and decided to release Harry because they had Gilmour only for him to leave not even 12 months later to go to Chelsea?