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Why do we insist on playing youngsters who won’t make it?


Neil Dongcaster

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Neil Dongcaster

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

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Henderson certainly hasn't done as well as hoped. 

Currie only made 13 appearances.

Moore I'll accept, he's no great.

Think your being a bit harsh on Brandon who's developed into a reliable back up player.

Zanatta looked alright but think we made the right choice binning him.

Keena didn't live up to expectation but he's gone now.

Godinho wasn't too bad but he's gone now.

Morrison I liked. There was a player in there. Doing excellent at Falkirk and think he could've done a job at this level, but hey ho.

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Neil Dongcaster
Just now, Locky said:

Henderson certainly hasn't done as well as hoped. 

Currie only made 13 appearances.

Moore I'll accept, he's no great.

Think your being a bit harsh on Brandon who's developed into a reliable back up player.

Zanatta looked alright but think we made the right choice binning him.

Keena didn't live up to expectation but he's gone now.

Godinho wasn't too bad but he's gone now.

Morrison I liked. There was a player in there. Doing excellent at Falkirk and think he could've done a job at this level, but hey ho.


Hardly ringing endorsements.

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Just now, Neil Dongcaster said:


Hardly ringing endorsements.

You're right, we haven't exactly brought through many truly exciting talents from our academy. It's a topic that's been done to the death on here.

 

Is it our biggest problem though? None of the names you mentioned are solely responsible for our current position. Our recruitment has been a far bigger problem in recent years.

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Lone Striker
7 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

Odd question, is it not ?   There's always some "borderline"  players who you have to give a try-out in the first team in order to see how they perform.   We gave a fair bit of game time to Morrison last season .... but all the other you mention have only featured occasionally, and have all gone now apart from Henderson and Brandon. 

 

Many more than these ones never got anywhere near the first team, and got released from the academy. 

 

Have you got a  PhD in Hindsight ?  😜 

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Most of these guys, though agreed not good enough ultimately, did us a turn. Literally all the players you mention scored at some point.  Is your point that we should focus on the (younger?) better youth players? Or that we should always play a senior player over a youth/reserve?  The latter will be costly and the former is about protecting really young guys.

 

Sorry, virtually all of them. Brandon hasn't scored but has def contributed in games.

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been here before
22 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

 

Winning 2-0 at half time so might as well start a thread greeting about some other shite I suppose.

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Neil Dongcaster
2 minutes ago, been here before said:

 

Winning 2-0 at half time so might as well start a thread greeting about some other shite I suppose.


Commented before the game I think we will win by 5 or 6.

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Spellczech

At the end of the day the responsibility for success or failure lies with the player. At least nobody can say they don't get a chance at Hearts. Whether they are being blooded in the correct way, or at the correct time, is more open to question. The environment away from the pitch is also open to discussion but I know nothing about that.

 

Sometimes players need a rejection before they realise they are in last chance saloon and finally focus enough to make it - Perhaps this is why sometimes the youngsters we punt go on to do better at Hibs (Cummings), Ross County (Paton) or Falkirk (Morrison)? Or perhaps they just need and get less expectation at these other clubs?

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King prawn
1 hour ago, Locky said:

Henderson certainly hasn't done as well as hoped. 

Currie only made 13 appearances.

Moore I'll accept, he's no great.

Think your being a bit harsh on Brandon who's developed into a reliable back up player.

Zanatta looked alright but think we made the right choice binning him.

Keena didn't live up to expectation but he's gone now.

Godinho wasn't too bad but he's gone now.

Morrison I liked. There was a player in there. Doing excellent at Falkirk and think he could've done a job at this level, but hey ho.

Agree with all apart from Brandon. He’s dreadful and will be lucky to do well at league one level. 

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Spellczech

People should not expect young players to be the finished article in their first matches for the club...

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The answer is two-fold.
 

First one’s simply really. Some youth players are standouts in the u20s. Look like superstars. They need to be tested in the first team and thrown in at the deep end. Some sink some swim. 
 

2nd is We are Hearts. Not Man City. We have to back-fill our squad with youth players, just like EVERY other team in the country. We can’t afford to buy a squad of 30 experienced professionals and the wages that go with it. Robbie will be picking some youngsters knowing fine well they won’t make the grade in the long run. But they can do us a turn in the here and now. Like Henderson today. Didn’t do much but him playing today rested Naismith and Boyce on a horrendous pitch. Fresher for the next game. 

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Smith's right boot

From the op' s list, very few played regularly, so unsure of the thread title, we didn't keep on playing them...... 

 

Most were given a chance, covered injuries,  punted out on loan, punted to another club, released or at best a bit part player until punted. 

None on the list were first team regulars. 

 

Only Brandon has been about the team and squad consistently for a long period. 

 

Club uses young players as squad fillers and gives a chance before deciding on them shocker.... 

 

Whatever will we do next!!!!!! 

 

 

 

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Neil Dongcaster

The players I’ve mentioned have a combined 161 appearances for Hearts.

Edited by Neil Dongcaster
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Maroonjam
2 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

You do realise most these players have left? 

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Neil Dongcaster
1 minute ago, Maroonjam said:

You do realise most these players have left? 


Yes?

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Phew. When I saw the thread title I thought that someone was about to make a case for league suspension!

 

Having read the real content I have to agree that the players listed were not good enough to play at the top level for Hearts. Irving is though.

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ToqueJambo
2 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

 

In Henderson's case today it's because we're using the squad to protect our best players during a cluttered winter schedule, with some coming back from injuries and others not being risked on plastic pitches. He was the only option. That's also why we're looking at a new striker.

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Maroonjam
8 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:


Yes?

Yoy said players who will never make the grade at Hearts as if they were still on the books that's all. 

Edited by Maroonjam
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Harry Potter
3 minutes ago, Pilmuir said:

Phew. When I saw the thread title I thought that someone was about to make a case for league suspension!

 

Having read the real content I have to agree that the players listed were not good enough to play at the top level for Hearts. Irving is though.

The players have to be tried and tested, bound to be some not good enough.

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Fort Vallance
24 minutes ago, DS98 said:

The answer is two-fold.
 

First one’s simply really. Some youth players are standouts in the u20s. Look like superstars. They need to be tested in the first team and thrown in at the deep end. Some sink some swim. 
 

2nd is We are Hearts. Not Man City. We have to back-fill our squad with youth players, just like EVERY other team in the country. We can’t afford to buy a squad of 30 experienced professionals and the wages that go with it. Robbie will be picking some youngsters knowing fine well they won’t make the grade in the long run. But they can do us a turn in the here and now. Like Henderson today. Didn’t do much but him playing today rested Naismith and Boyce on a horrendous pitch. Fresher for the next game. 

Spot on with the first part. The second is a fair point, particularly the point about being able to rest Naismith and Boyce. However we have a load of experienced professionals who should be contributing and allowing us only to give the younger players a run to see if they are up to it. Unfortunately the experienced back up players are no better than the youngsters.

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Randy Marsh
42 minutes ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

Henderson is nowhere near the standard required. 

Unfortunately I think you're right.  I was at that Caramel Wafer cup match at Albion Rovers last season and Henderson was outstanding. MOTM. I don't think he is good enough even at Championship level at the monent sadly.  Not to say he can't have a decent career in football as Scott Robinson has shown. 

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Spellczech
6 minutes ago, Fort Vallance said:

Spot on with the first part. The second is a fair point, particularly the point about being able to rest Naismith and Boyce. However we have a load of experienced professionals who should be contributing and allowing us only to give the younger players a run to see if they are up to it. Unfortunately the experienced back up players are no better than the youngsters.

If that is the case then the OP should perhaps be questioning that instead...

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I'm sure at some point every single team has made use of players probably not long term options 

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Brighton Jambo

I would rather we gave them a few games too many rather than not enough.  It means when we move them on we know they aren’t good enough and means any youngsters considering us as an option would be attracted as they know they will get a fair chance. 

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I'm always willing to give these laddies time, thought Dale Carrick played very similar to Henderson in his first ten or fifteen games but then developed into a decent striker before injuries finished him, what I will say though is Moore and Brandon aren't even young enough to call youngsters anymore and I can't see any way back for them 

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Mikey1874
49 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

People should not expect young players to be the finished article in their first matches for the club...

 

In my time you can generally tell very good players pretty quickly. Bowman, Mackay, Robertson you knew the first games they played. 

 

The problem mainly arises with players who start well then fade. Cochrane, Craig Thomson, McMullan for example. 

 

I agree that it's clear guys like Henderson, Moore etc aren't good enough. Been clear since early games and they've had enough games. 

 

At Hearts there is still some youngsters who have a chance. But not many. 

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3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

In my time you can generally tell very good players pretty quickly. Bowman, Mackay, Robertson you knew the first games they played. 

 

The problem mainly arises with players who start well then fade. Cochrane, Craig Thomson, McMullan for example. 

 

I agree that it's clear guys like Henderson, Moore etc aren't good enough. Been clear since early games and they've had enough games. 

 

At Hearts there is still some youngsters who have a chance. But not many. 

 

Yeah but its always risk or reward with youngster's, Darren Fletcher said Neil Jancyzc was the best player throughout thier school teams, yet compare the 2 careers?

 

Craig Gordon, Lee Wallace, Berra, McGowan, Neilson, Paterson, Nicholson, just to name a few have landed big money contracts at the end of their time here. I agree it's unreal how many players didnt make it with us, but the majority of them are still playing full time. 

 

I'm not for one minute going to accept anyone who thinks that Jordan Robert's offers us more than Hendo or Moore. They at least run and put a shift in. Sometimes that can actually be more important than ability. Look at Scott Robinson who was always very limited as a player but he won't stop trying. 

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CloustonHMFC
2 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

Henderson - 33 appearances since 2017

Currie - 13 appearances between 2016-2020

Moore - 26 appearances since 2016

Brandon - 35 appearances since 2016

Zanatta - 22 appearances between 2015-2019

Keena - 22 appearances between 2017-Jan 2020

Godinho - 20 appearances between 2016-2019

Morrison - 42 appearances between 2015-2020

 

I'd hardly say we were persisting with these players based on their competitive appearances. All of them showed promise and deserved their opportunities but unfortunately none of them lived up to their potential. It happens. Case closed.

Edited by CloustonHMFC
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Spellczech
7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

In my time you can generally tell very good players pretty quickly. Bowman, Mackay, Robertson you knew the first games they played. 

 

The problem mainly arises with players who start well then fade. Cochrane, Craig Thomson, McMullan for example. 

 

I agree that it's clear guys like Henderson, Moore etc aren't good enough. Been clear since early games and they've had enough games. 

 

At Hearts there is still some youngsters who have a chance. But not many. 

I never thought Craig Thomson faded TBH. I thought he was a wee guy with real promise - pace, good crosser, decent defender...Destroyed his own career with his interest in young teenage girls but on the pitch he was quite promising.

 

I think a lot depends on when they are introduced. We've had rubbish wingers since 2 of the 3 young lads who got us promoted last time were deemed not good enough for the top league...We've given quite a few young guys a chance on the wings but none of them has cut it. Just this week people were talking about John Colquhoun again - a sign of just how desperate we are for pace and width.

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Seymour M Hersh

Stupid thread. All clubs have youngsters coming through the system that don't make it. The party is the ones who do and go on to great things. 

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Mikey1874
4 minutes ago, CloustonHMFC said:

Henderson - 33 appearances since 2017

Currie - 13 appearances between 2016-2020

Moore - 26 appearances since 2016

Brandon - 35 appearances since 2016

Zanatta - 22 appearances between 2015-2019

Keena - 22 appearances between 2017-Jan 2020

Godinho - 20 appearances between 2016-2019

Morrison - 42 appearances between 2015-2020

 

I'd hardly say we were persisting with these players based on their competitive appearances. All of them showed promise and deserved their opportunities but unfortunately none of them lived up to their potential. It happens. Case closed.

 

And most were ditched. Moved on. 

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  • davemclaren changed the title to Why do we insist on playing youngsters who won’t make it?
1 hour ago, DS98 said:

The answer is two-fold.
 

First one’s simply really. Some youth players are standouts in the u20s. Look like superstars. They need to be tested in the first team and thrown in at the deep end. Some sink some swim. 
 

2nd is We are Hearts. Not Man City. We have to back-fill our squad with youth players, just like EVERY other team in the country. We can’t afford to buy a squad of 30 experienced professionals and the wages that go with it. Robbie will be picking some youngsters knowing fine well they won’t make the grade in the long run. But they can do us a turn in the here and now. Like Henderson today. Didn’t do much but him playing today rested Naismith and Boyce on a horrendous pitch. Fresher for the next game. 


..

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I think the point is - we've placed all this emphasis on the Academy, put a fair whack of cash into it and we aren't producing better or more first team players than we did in the 80's,90's or 00's and we seem to keep lads , who clearly are never going to make it for much longer than we should. 

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As a short response to the OP:

 

Because we don't know they won't make it until we play them. Even if we think they will, they go backwards ie Cochrane. Those that we think aren't good enough, strangely blossom later on - Robinson, Lithgow. Those that decided that they are better than us can go either way - McGhee /Holt.

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Bongo 1874

Youth team players ain't the problem, I was spot on about Irving and if Robbie is prepared to give Henderson time, he will prove people wrong too. 

 

Wait until people see Cammy Logan and others, my biggest fear is Robbie the guy to take their game, to the level it needs to be at. 

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jamboinglasgow
1 hour ago, CloustonHMFC said:

Henderson - 33 appearances since 2017

Currie - 13 appearances between 2016-2020

Moore - 26 appearances since 2016

Brandon - 35 appearances since 2016

Zanatta - 22 appearances between 2015-2019

Keena - 22 appearances between 2017-Jan 2020

Godinho - 20 appearances between 2016-2019

Morrison - 42 appearances between 2015-2020

 

I'd hardly say we were persisting with these players based on their competitive appearances. All of them showed promise and deserved their opportunities but unfortunately none of them lived up to their potential. It happens. Case closed.

 

I would love to know what the total number of minutes played by these players. A play may make 22 apperances for Hearts but if 18 of them are sub apperances of 10 minutes each then thats the equivalent to two full games. 

 

The simple answer to the OPs question is that the manager believes they can play a part in the team doing well in the game they are put on to play. Some players do well, some dont. But if you dont play players more than a few times you will never know.

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This must be the most pointless thread ever. How will you know if a young player is gonna make it unless you give them game time? 🤔

 

In fact, how will you know anything unless you try it? There are no certainties in life.

 

Also, where did this whole 'bin' thing spring from? Really gets my goat that...

 

This lad 'needs binned', that guy 'will never be good enough'. Oh, great. What a fantastic way of looking at the world. 

 

'Unless you're Colin ******* Cameron, you can **** off...'

 

Ffs, that was twenty years ago guys. Things have moved on. For every Aaron Hickey there will be a Calumn Morrison... That's just how it is.

 

Did we win today, BTW? Yup. Top of the league? Tick. Well, that's good enough for me... 

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JamboAndrew

I'm glad we give kids a chance. And 20/30 games to see if it works. And most seem to do enough to kick around in div 1 and 2.

 

A few work out over the years. But not enough for me.

 

I'm baffled that we can't produce a striker though. But to be fair, very few Scottish clubs have produced 20+ goal a season strikers through their academies. 

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lost in space

Very negative OP.

Henderson/ Brandon/ Moore still have the chance to make it. They will be better than Frear/Roberts/Popescue.

What about Smith - doing well with DUFC - but not good enough for us.

What about Robinson - doing well with Livi - but not good enough with us.

What about Reilly - signed for Livi - but not good enough for us.

What about Hamilton - goalie for Dundee - but we signed Bobby/ Peirara/ Doyle.

What about Nicholson - playing in England but not worth us offering decent contract.

 

For years we have made very poor decisions on young players. Hoping that will improve.

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Our academy is shit as are our scouts.  Throw in the shite coaches, physios, medics and groundstaff and youngsters have not got a snowball's chance in hell of progressing with us.

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I mean ffs we had a gormless hippy coaching them for over 3 years.

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colinmorewasgash

Darren Murray crop of youngsters that came through the system seemed to have more belief pace and attitude.Remember when our Craig said our youngsters would be better and youth set up would be vastly improved all he did early doors was punt ones we had some had good careers at smaller clubs robinson holt mckay king mchattie etc nicholson paterson and walker left and we brought in mercenary donkeys has it been better after 6 almost 7 years or not. Roger Arnott said in 2014 from youth to first team we would all play same way and that there would be a plan. What plan. Irving looks good Hickey was signed from Sellick and soon sold. Moore Henderson Smith Cochrane Brandon Hamilton will be gone soon I think and not good enough.

 

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Funtime Jambo
On 16/01/2021 at 15:35, Neil Dongcaster said:

Youngsters who will evidently never make the grade at Hearts.

 

Henderson

Currie

Moore

Brandon

Zanatta

Keena

Godinho

Morrison

 

Just awful. Is it because we got grants for playing them?

 

 

All decent YOUNG players in my eyes where ever they end up good luck to them in these difficult times,done something 99% of us can only dream of poor post Neil Dongcaster.

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Given a good run in the team, they'd do OK. But fans don't do patience. Hopefully this season with all the moaning hits in the hoose, we'll bring through 1 or 2. Irving for one is a player and has great passing ability. 

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