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Why do we insist on playing youngsters who won’t make it?


Neil Dongcaster

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1 hour ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

From everything I have seen Ann talk about it, it was identified the issue is that at 16 when academy players sign pro-contracts that they are given less focus than they had before.  Here is what she said back in August 

 

“The players get through and there seems to be a bit of a disjoint. They get their first contract but in the academy they are almost mothered,” she said.

“They're constantly getting one-to-one tuition, they get their contract and I just feel suddenly they are on their own.

“We have this young 16-year-old and what do we have to do for him to fast-track his career? I think we have to focus more on that.

“Our objective is still to get the process of academy to first contract to first-team player working because there is a bit of it which didn't work.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-unveil-plans-new-first-team-wage-structure-2955130

 

And in her AGM statement she said:

"We were in the midst of a major recruitment programme aimed at further growing and developing the Club.  We were looking to recruit a Head of Performance, a Chief Executive and a Sporting Director. Our Head of Performance started 6 weeks before football was suspended. We will focus on developing our key young players, both in the men’s and the women’s squads, to ensure we have a steady supply of the best young talent in Scotland moving forward. We are in the process of implementing a new High Performance Player Programme which will see a stronger focus on the individual development of our brightest young stars. We are also looking at introducing a similar programme for our best young talent in the Academy."

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-statement-1-2-3-4-5-6

 

I agree with you on the potential. The first team needs to be rebalanced, to allow the pathway for these players (I also think the club may need to take serious look at players and move on some who may be better leaving for first team football (for example I like Brandon but he will not be 1st choice, he would be better going to a club which will give him that and build from it, same with Moore.)

 

Its good to know that Ann is thinking so clearly about this.  I had read these statements at the time but good to see them again.

 

the balance point is correct, it will be interesting to see how that is applied.  Using your example of Brandon, he will, as you say never be 1st choice at Hearts.  Logan will, in my opinion, be a better player going forward and I think he could replace Smith in the next 1-2 years.  I'd like to see his pathway improved by releasing Brandon and having Logan as understudy and getting minutes next season with a view to seriously competing with a Smith as 1st choice the season after that.  Being speculative, Brandon is here now as a temporary squad filler and the plan is to do the aforementioned and hence why Logan is on loan at a decent level to get the exposure to first team football.

 

We have a few such squad fillers but I'd like to see us reduce these and have a strong senior squad that is supported by youth players when suspension/injuries arise so that they get the opportunity to progress.

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Just now, indianajones said:

Its pretty frustrating. 

 

One of the few that looks any decent is in danger of not signing a new contract.

 

We lost Paterson to Cardiff for peanuts and Hickey before we got the best from him. 

 

It is frustrating. Problem is that Scottish football has went so far backwards these last few years that anyone of any talent at all will jump ship at the first attempt. If they're not looking along towards Glasgow (Holt and Walker) they're heading to lower leagues down south. Hickey in fairness got the chance of a lifetime, a completely different footballing set-up and lifestyle so took it. Good luck to him. Others that do look over their shoulders at Smeltic or Rangers 2012 i question their ambition. Stay a few more seasons where you are and if you are good enough you'll get that move. Seems it's the big paycheck rather than ambition that sends certain individuals to the old firm and it can cost us future International players. The days of the likes of Dundee Utd for example competing for the league title with "s"-form signings are long gone. At Hearts, the youngsters reach a certain level then it all tails off for them and they end up down the leagues bar the odd one here or there. Good for those other clubs that don't need to spend anything for themselves and leave the cost of developing these players to Hearts. Sad state of affairs but there it is.

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jamboinglasgow
3 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

 

Its good to know that Ann is thinking so clearly about this.  I had read these statements at the time but good to see them again.

 

the balance point is correct, it will be interesting to see how that is applied.  Using your example of Brandon, he will, as you say never be 1st choice at Hearts.  Logan will, in my opinion, be a better player going forward and I think he could replace Smith in the next 1-2 years.  I'd like to see his pathway improved by releasing Brandon and having Logan as understudy and getting minutes next season with a view to seriously competing with a Smith as 1st choice the season after that.  Being speculative, Brandon is here now as a temporary squad filler and the plan is to do the aforementioned and hence why Logan is on loan at a decent level to get the exposure to first team football.

 

We have a few such squad fillers but I'd like to see us reduce these and have a strong senior squad that is supported by youth players when suspension/injuries arise so that they get the opportunity to progress.

 

Yeah I do get the sense of that as well. You could trim the first team squad to 13-16 players of the current first team squad by the summer based on the players out of contract or who would not be Premiership quality (and includes Irving, Kingsley and Ginnelly getting contracts and does not include any additional players this month.) That then allows you 7-10 players to make a 23 man squad. That gives you chance to bring in a mix of quality for the Premiership and young players.

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Guest ToqueJambo
43 minutes ago, Finlay James said:

 

 

We have a few such squad fillers but I'd like to see us reduce these and have a strong senior squad that is supported by youth players when suspension/injuries arise so that they get the opportunity to progress.

 

Would love to get to this situation. Too many squad fillers is the story of the last few seasons. Our injury crisis should have been the opportunity to put more faith in more young players than we did. Even with our hyper critical support at times, a lot of fans would have accepted poor results because of the injuries and young players filling in, so long as they were giving their all. 

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I still remember threads when posters were saying we needed to bin Smith because Brandon and Gidinho were both better players already than he would ever be. For those who think that these things are so obvious and easy to call, worth having a look at what people posted about some of these players when they were playing. Here are some comments a quick search for Godhino threw up..

 

About Brandon & Godinho, Aug 2018: "Both of these guys can solve the problem on the right side."

 

About Morrison & Godinho, Dec 2018 "Both did well today, especially Morrison, who was beating their players for fun, but I thought they both linked up very well on the right. Godinho did good work defensively and going forward."

 

I wasn't going to include the posters' names but amused me that this last one was from i8hibs who wrote earlier in this thread said "Our academy is shit as are our scouts.". Proving that he can really spot a player, here are his thoughts on Godinho from April 2018 (with his normal sunny outlook on Hearts generally):

"One of the few sparkling lights in a sea of pure and utter shite."

 

Too many of our fans seem to believe that every youngster who comes through should be amazing and go on to either play for a decade for Hearts or be sold for millions. While no youngster should ever be let go who then goes on to have a semi-decent career  it's just not how youth development works.

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It would help if the first team had been better in the last few years. Now with Robbie back, I expect it to be top notch by next season and this should help the young players to be educated better. 

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17 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

From everything I have seen Ann talk about it, it was identified the issue is that at 16 when academy players sign pro-contracts that they are given less focus than they had before.  Here is what she said back in August 

 

“The players get through and there seems to be a bit of a disjoint. They get their first contract but in the academy they are almost mothered,” she said.

“They're constantly getting one-to-one tuition, they get their contract and I just feel suddenly they are on their own.

“We have this young 16-year-old and what do we have to do for him to fast-track his career? I think we have to focus more on that.

“Our objective is still to get the process of academy to first contract to first-team player working because there is a bit of it which didn't work.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/hearts-unveil-plans-new-first-team-wage-structure-2955130

 

And in her AGM statement she said:

"We were in the midst of a major recruitment programme aimed at further growing and developing the Club.  We were looking to recruit a Head of Performance, a Chief Executive and a Sporting Director. Our Head of Performance started 6 weeks before football was suspended. We will focus on developing our key young players, both in the men’s and the women’s squads, to ensure we have a steady supply of the best young talent in Scotland moving forward. We are in the process of implementing a new High Performance Player Programme which will see a stronger focus on the individual development of our brightest young stars. We are also looking at introducing a similar programme for our best young talent in the Academy."

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-statement-1-2-3-4-5-6

 

I agree with you on the potential. The first team needs to be rebalanced, to allow the pathway for these players (I also think the club may need to take serious look at players and move on some who may be better leaving for first team football (for example I like Brandon but he will not be 1st choice, he would be better going to a club which will give him that and build from it, same with Moore.)

Same issue has plagued Scottish (and English actually) football for years now. The setup league-wise, the mentality of clubs and many more things to blame.

 

We generally do OK at age groups football, especially up to 17s, maybe. But we just don't convert these talents in to grown up stars.

 

If we can crack that, we'll be golden!

 

The Levein method of earning your locker is probably a thing of the past. I hope the boys who are in the squad are in the squad and basically have mentorship on their game, mental strength and lifestyle. Sounds simple obviously!!! If it was, you'd think everyone would do it! But then sometimes things can be obvious but people are stuck in "aye been" attitudes.

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8 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

I still remember threads when posters were saying we needed to bin Smith because Brandon and Gidinho were both better players already than he would ever be. For those who think that these things are so obvious and easy to call, worth having a look at what people posted about some of these players when they were playing. Here are some comments a quick search for Godhino threw up..

 

About Brandon & Godinho, Aug 2018: "Both of these guys can solve the problem on the right side."

 

About Morrison & Godinho, Dec 2018 "Both did well today, especially Morrison, who was beating their players for fun, but I thought they both linked up very well on the right. Godinho did good work defensively and going forward."

 

I wasn't going to include the posters' names but amused me that this last one was from i8hibs who wrote earlier in this thread said "Our academy is shit as are our scouts.". Proving that he can really spot a player, here are his thoughts on Godinho from April 2018 (with his normal sunny outlook on Hearts generally):

"One of the few sparkling lights in a sea of pure and utter shite."

 

Too many of our fans seem to believe that every youngster who comes through should be amazing and go on to either play for a decade for Hearts or be sold for millions. While no youngster should ever be let go who then goes on to have a semi-decent career  it's just not how youth development works.

This kind of sums up what I've been trying to say. You can't really tell if a lad "has it" until he's played a fair few games. Of course he can be miles off, but I mean the likes of Morisson and Godinho. Definitely had something. Worth their chance. But over maybe 20odd appearances each, just didn't grab it quite enough.

 

But why do we play guys who aren't good enough? There's no crystal ball is the answer really.

 

Do wonder if Calumn was worth coaching. He has the raw materials, but that's another topic.

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Every club in the world brings through players that they think will be good and give a chance and they end up not being up to standard, our fans seem to think we're uniquely bad for some reason.

 

Most of the players listed made the vast majority of their appearances from the bench.  Morrison was the only one who had a real run of starting appearances and he's not a bad player at all imo.

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jamboinglasgow
13 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Same issue has plagued Scottish (and English actually) football for years now. The setup league-wise, the mentality of clubs and many more things to blame.

 

We generally do OK at age groups football, especially up to 17s, maybe. But we just don't convert these talents in to grown up stars.

 

If we can crack that, we'll be golden!

 

The Levein method of earning your locker is probably a thing of the past. I hope the boys who are in the squad are in the squad and basically have mentorship on their game, mental strength and lifestyle. Sounds simple obviously!!! If it was, you'd think everyone would do it! But then sometimes things can be obvious but people are stuck in "aye been" attitudes.

 

I think there is an old school mentality that is around when it comes to young players. More focused on toughing players up or making them conform to the ideal of the team. So focus is on things like as you say earning the right to get changed in the first team changing room and getting a locker or making sure players only wear black boots, or they need to go and get kicked around by lower league men.  

 

Now that may suit some players, but I think there needs to be a player by player way of developing. Players are human beings and one style of mentoring or coaching may not work with another player. One remember hearing  someone who coaches Dutch football talk about the Dutch way they bring through young players. This may have been about the young groups but it still relevent for players 16+, they said that they have to get the most out of every player no matter what talent they are seen to have, because in a small country you cant afford to waste players. I think the same is needed here, clubs invest so much into academies and the players that come out of it, but it feels wasteful how they approach the next stage. 

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