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12 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Much easier to identify a player that will possibly make the grade at 18 and older. That's the market we should be looking at.

 

Definitely. But that means paying fees to do it on a large scale doesn't it? Anyone good at that age will require quite a large fee unless their club are totally unaware of their potential or he forces a move to us somehow for some reason. We have signed some great youngsters at 16/17/18 or so like Levein and Webster, but it seems to make sense to invest on bringing through our own kids.

 

Even then identifying players at 18 there are no guarantees. D Utd and Rangers had a big fight over Charlie Telfer and Utd ended up having to pay Rangers 200 grand. He's at Falkirk now. 

 

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9 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Definitely. But that means paying fees to do it on a large scale doesn't it? Anyone good at that age will require quite a large fee unless their club are totally unaware of their potential or he forces a move to us somehow for some reason. We have signed some great youngsters at 16/17/18 or so like Levein and Webster, but it seems to make sense to invest on bringing through our own kids.

 

Even then identifying players at 18 there are no guarantees. D Utd and Rangers had a big fight over Charlie Telfer and Utd ended up having to pay Rangers 200 grand. He's at Falkirk now. 

 

Teams need the money. Might get them in for a lot less. Investing in our own has been a waste of a lot of money. 

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Footballfirst
8 hours ago, allanwilson1970 said:

 

Never knew such big sums were involved for young players, I must have spoken to 20-30 parents over last few years in the academy at games and no one mentioned. Is this a new rule?

 

Changing the subject FF but do you know how Chris Hamilton is doing on loan? I see he is starting every game but can't find anything about his position or performances. 

The development contribution has been around for a few years now, probably at least 10.

 

TBH I haven't been tracking what Chris has been doing. I know he got a red card in one of his first games and there was a suggestion that he would be played in midfield rather than centre back, but I don't know if that has happened. The fact that he is playing every game would suggest that he is doing OK.

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jamboinglasgow
1 hour ago, Spellczech said:

Going to be more important from tomorrow...

 

I presume you mean with the restrictions in foreign players that new home office rules have brought in.

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1 minute ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I presume you mean with the restrictions in foreign players that new home office rules have brought in.

Yep, Will be harder to get average foreign players in for the first team, and going to be harder to get foreign kids into academies so the English academies will sniff around more. The value of British kids may rise.

 

 

 

 

 

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jamboinglasgow
2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Yep, Will be harder to get average foreign players in for the first team, and going to be harder to get foreign kids into academies so the English academies will sniff around more. The value of British kids may rise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, we need to be very on the ball in getting academy players to sign pro contracts at 16, as academies in England can swoop in and take them for next to nothing. If we can hold on to them and play then the value increases a lot. But I do fear the vultures.

 

I must admit though, of the new immigration rules for British football, banning signing foreign U18s is something I completely agree with.

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13 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Yep, Will be harder to get average foreign players in for the first team, and going to be harder to get foreign kids into academies so the English academies will sniff around more. The value of British kids may rise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jordan Campbell (journo for the Athletic website) wrote a good piece on this now. Said lots of English teams are now appointing full time scouts exclusively for Scotland. Said even before Brexit rules there was a changing viewpoint about Scottish youngsters due to the academy schooling system clubs and the SFA have brought in. English scouts now feeling Scottish players are more developed young athletes than previously, where they showed talent but were less developed physically and athletically. Could be interesting times ahead if that's the case.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Yup, we need to be very on the ball in getting academy players to sign pro contracts at 16, as academies in England can swoop in and take them for next to nothing. If we can hold on to them and play then the value increases a lot. But I do fear the vultures.

 

I must admit though, of the new immigration rules for British football, banning signing foreign U18s is something I completely agree with.

Potentially this is a big threat to Scottish football...Kids in England can already earn a million before even playing for the first team. Going to be an hard sell to get parents of potential breadwinner to accept that wee Jimmy is only worth £300 per week...

 

We've all been saying it for years but a proven track into first team football at a young age is going to be a vital selling-point, yet even that is being eroded by English academies only loaning players on the proviso that they play X number of games for whatever team...

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jamboinglasgow
2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Potentially this is a big threat to Scottish football...Kids in England can already earn a million before even playing for the first team. Going to be an hard sell to get parents of potential breadwinner to accept that wee Jimmy is only worth £300 per week...

 

We've all been saying it for years but a proven track into first team football at a young age is going to be a vital selling-point, yet even that is being eroded by English academies only loaning players on the proviso that they play X number of games for whatever team...

 

I think its harder but not all players are driven purely by the money. Its interesting seeing players who stayed at Hearts when they were wanted down south at 16 and why they stayed. The biggest driver is getting first team game time. 

 

Its a key reason why we need to keep giving young players chances in the first team as it attracts other youngsters who think they will get their chance. Aaron Hickey will have helped us massively, could have stayed at a bigger club but chose Hearts, made his debut at 16 and played in a cup final, then moved to Serie A aged 18 and has played reguarly in the league. Other players can see us as that stepping stone.

 

This interview with Callum Flatman (highly rated 16 year old Hearts player who rejected a move down south to stay at Hearts) is one of the best for a honest view of why you would stay and what drives you to go down south

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/new-hearts-signing-explains-why-he-chose-tynecastle-over-spurs-3011756

 

But it can be a gamble moving south that can pay off, look at Billy Gilmour.

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29 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I think its harder but not all players are driven purely by the money. Its interesting seeing players who stayed at Hearts when they were wanted down south at 16 and why they stayed. The biggest driver is getting first team game time. 

 

Its a key reason why we need to keep giving young players chances in the first team as it attracts other youngsters who think they will get their chance. Aaron Hickey will have helped us massively, could have stayed at a bigger club but chose Hearts, made his debut at 16 and played in a cup final, then moved to Serie A aged 18 and has played reguarly in the league. Other players can see us as that stepping stone.

 

This interview with Callum Flatman (highly rated 16 year old Hearts player who rejected a move down south to stay at Hearts) is one of the best for a honest view of why you would stay and what drives you to go down south

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/new-hearts-signing-explains-why-he-chose-tynecastle-over-spurs-3011756

 

But it can be a gamble moving south that can pay off, look at Billy Gilmour.

I think the more "case study" interviews the better, as you imply. Gilmour is an exceptional talent (in Scottish terms) and it has always been clear to us that the OF academies, particularly Rangers', are a dead end for progression. Celtic have a better record with the likes of McGregor and Tierney...The Hickey and Robertson stories counter their successes.

 

However, competing with the OF is one thing, competing with the English academies will be another entirely...Hopefully Flatman progresses and gets his reward for HIS loyalty. We need more stories like Hickey's and less like those of Marc Leonard (unless he continues to not get a sniff at Brighton or Bournemouth or wherever it was he went...Could be the next David Gray or the other kid who left for ManU in the noughties but ended up at HIbs (winger, forget his name)

 

The regression of Cochrane is particularly disappointing, as is the failure of MacDonald to make it, but contrary to some others I think Hearts were good to that lad in releasing him and letting him go off and try to make it in a more technical country where he may have a better chance of making a career for himself.

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Footballfirst
6 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Could be the next David Gray or the other kid who left for ManU in the noughties but ended up at HIbs (winger, forget his name)

Danny Galbraith, now at Gala Fairydean Rovers

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4 hours ago, Spellczech said:

Potentially this is a big threat to Scottish football...Kids in England can already earn a million before even playing for the first team. Going to be an hard sell to get parents of potential breadwinner to accept that wee Jimmy is only worth £300 per week...

 

We've all been saying it for years but a proven track into first team football at a young age is going to be a vital selling-point, yet even that is being eroded by English academies only loaning players on the proviso that they play X number of games for whatever team...


300 would be pretty good going, at that age it’s more about opportunities for most 

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7 hours ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I think its harder but not all players are driven purely by the money. Its interesting seeing players who stayed at Hearts when they were wanted down south at 16 and why they stayed. The biggest driver is getting first team game time. 

 

Its a key reason why we need to keep giving young players chances in the first team as it attracts other youngsters who think they will get their chance. Aaron Hickey will have helped us massively, could have stayed at a bigger club but chose Hearts, made his debut at 16 and played in a cup final, then moved to Serie A aged 18 and has played reguarly in the league. Other players can see us as that stepping stone.

 

This interview with Callum Flatman (highly rated 16 year old Hearts player who rejected a move down south to stay at Hearts) is one of the best for a honest view of why you would stay and what drives you to go down south

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/new-hearts-signing-explains-why-he-chose-tynecastle-over-spurs-3011756

 

But it can be a gamble moving south that can pay off, look at Billy Gilmour.

 

Hickey's a great example of a player who took his time to get the right move and made sure his new club would give him a pathway to the first team. Even he is probably surprised how quickly he's progressed there due to injury/suspension to the other LB, but the main thing was he made sure he was going to be part of the first team squad from day one. Other players his age are happy to go down south to join U20-U23 teams or whatever, which often doesn't seem to get them very far.

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Naisysback
7 hours ago, Spellczech said:

I think the more "case study" interviews the better, as you imply. Gilmour is an exceptional talent (in Scottish terms) and it has always been clear to us that the OF academies, particularly Rangers', are a dead end for progression. Celtic have a better record with the likes of McGregor and Tierney...The Hickey and Robertson stories counter their successes.

 

However, competing with the OF is one thing, competing with the English academies will be another entirely...Hopefully Flatman progresses and gets his reward for HIS loyalty. We need more stories like Hickey's and less like those of Marc Leonard (unless he continues to not get a sniff at Brighton or Bournemouth or wherever it was he went...Could be the next David Gray or the other kid who left for ManU in the noughties but ended up at HIbs (winger, forget his name)

 

The regression of Cochrane is particularly disappointing, as is the failure of MacDonald to make it, but contrary to some others I think Hearts were good to that lad in releasing him and letting him go off and try to make it in a more technical country where he may have a better chance of making a career for himself.

Strange how you blame the regression of Cochrane and state McDonald didnt make it yet dont seem to question why.

 

Surely you cannot think that the numerous players brought in to play in their positions wefe better than them. Maybe their career and development was halted by the mis management of the young players at the club. Also b4 you point to Hickey, he was nowhere near the 1st team until Whyte\Garruccio both got injured.

 

Both those boys will maybe take a half step back but they will go on to have very good careers.

 

Also the release of MCDONALD was a stupid move because the players brought in are nowhere near the quality he has and he is still a teenager. Should never have been allowed to go, in fact should be a 1st team regular.

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Spellczech
9 hours ago, Naisysback said:

Strange how you blame the regression of Cochrane and state McDonald didnt make it yet dont seem to question why.

 

Surely you cannot think that the numerous players brought in to play in their positions wefe better than them. Maybe their career and development was halted by the mis management of the young players at the club. Also b4 you point to Hickey, he was nowhere near the 1st team until Whyte\Garruccio both got injured.

 

Both those boys will maybe take a half step back but they will go on to have very good careers.

 

Also the release of MCDONALD was a stupid move because the players brought in are nowhere near the quality he has and he is still a teenager. Should never have been allowed to go, in fact should be a 1st team regular.

My post wasn't intended to analyse the reasons for the noted players making it or not. You could be right in what you say but we didn't hear about standout performances by either Cochrane or McDonald when out on loan and both suffered with injuries. The club could well have failed them and that appears to be a narrative that suits you. Doesn't make it true though. One day we may hear the "whys" and "but fors", but I think we can agree that neither is looking like being a positive case study at the moment...

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12 hours ago, Naisysback said:

Strange how you blame the regression of Cochrane and state McDonald didnt make it yet dont seem to question why.

 

Surely you cannot think that the numerous players brought in to play in their positions wefe better than them. Maybe their career and development was halted by the mis management of the young players at the club. Also b4 you point to Hickey, he was nowhere near the 1st team until Whyte\Garruccio both got injured.

 

Both those boys will maybe take a half step back but they will go on to have very good careers.

 

Also the release of MCDONALD was a stupid move because the players brought in are nowhere near the quality he has and he is still a teenager. Should never have been allowed to go, in fact should be a 1st team regular.

Believe that if it suits your agenda.

We could have brought in Shaughnessy at Lb or played with him in a back 3

or

we could have played Burns LB - but we went with Hickey who had been highly praised by many on here before his 1st team debut  and clearly was trusted by his manager after playing in the previous week's game.

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12 hours ago, Naisysback said:

Strange how you blame the regression of Cochrane and state McDonald didnt make it yet dont seem to question why.

 

Surely you cannot think that the numerous players brought in to play in their positions wefe better than them. Maybe their career and development was halted by the mis management of the young players at the club. Also b4 you point to Hickey, he was nowhere near the 1st team until Whyte\Garruccio both got injured.

 

Both those boys will maybe take a half step back but they will go on to have very good careers.

 

Also the release of MCDONALD was a stupid move because the players brought in are nowhere near the quality he has and he is still a teenager. Should never have been allowed to go, in fact should be a 1st team regular.

McDonald needed to leave for his own personal reasons 

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Lfhearts
1 hour ago, Sir Gio said:

McDonald needed to leave for his own personal reasons 

You listened to the podcast?

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Spellczech
On 30/12/2020 at 23:40, ToqueJambo said:

 

Definitely. But that means paying fees to do it on a large scale doesn't it? Anyone good at that age will require quite a large fee unless their club are totally unaware of their potential or he forces a move to us somehow for some reason. We have signed some great youngsters at 16/17/18 or so like Levein and Webster, but it seems to make sense to invest on bringing through our own kids.

 

Even then identifying players at 18 there are no guarantees. D Utd and Rangers had a big fight over Charlie Telfer and Utd ended up having to pay Rangers 200 grand. He's at Falkirk now. 

 

That was scandalous - how the SFA panel arrived at that figure at that time I don't know... Nobody was buying players for cash yet United ended up having to pay a couple hundred grand for a kid...

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ToqueJambo
On 31/12/2020 at 16:32, Naisysback said:

Strange how you blame the regression of Cochrane and state McDonald didnt make it yet dont seem to question why.

 

Surely you cannot think that the numerous players brought in to play in their positions wefe better than them. Maybe their career and development was halted by the mis management of the young players at the club. Also b4 you point to Hickey, he was nowhere near the 1st team until Whyte\Garruccio both got injured.

 

Both those boys will maybe take a half step back but they will go on to have very good careers.

 

Also the release of MCDONALD was a stupid move because the players brought in are nowhere near the quality he has and he is still a teenager. Should never have been allowed to go, in fact should be a 1st team regular.

 

Cochrane had some major injury problems to be fair. White was the one nowhere near the first team the season Hickey made his debut as he was still coming back from injury - Hickey played for Hearts before White did. There's no doubt Hickey was catapulted in because of our injury crisis. I think we tried Burns, Shaunessy and Smith as well at LB after Garrucio's injury but HIckey performed best when it was his turn and established himself. He got into the Bologna team ahead of schedule exactly the same way after an injury to the first choice LB.

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Naisysback
On 01/01/2021 at 13:17, Sir Gio said:

McDonald needed to leave for his own personal reasons 

What petsonal reasons would they be. Intrigued as you obviously know something.

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7 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

What petsonal reasons would they be. Intrigued as you obviously know something.

Follow him on Twitter, said it was best for him to be away from Scotland. Seems a nice lad. Was sorry to see him go

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Charlie-Brown-

We'd rather sign wage thief overseas players or English league journeymen and you all cheer when we do....then complain we never produce any decent youngsters.

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Charlie-Brown-

However Craig Gordon, Christophe Berra, Jamie Walker, Andy Irving, Euan Henderson and Lewis Moore from tonight's team all played in Hearts Academy teams so that's 6 players in just 1 match squad provided resources for Hearts first team squad.

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7 hours ago, Charlie-Brown- said:

However Craig Gordon, Christophe Berra, Jamie Walker, Andy Irving, Euan Henderson and Lewis Moore from tonight's team all played in Hearts Academy teams so that's 6 players in just 1 match squad provided resources for Hearts first team squad.

amd Jamie Brandon. Also Jordan McGhee and Jack Hamilton for Dundee.

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