Our Much Vaunted Academy

[sadj]

6 hours ago, Nunya Business said:

You’re right about the coaching at the club. McDonald being told he was going to Dunfermline to learn more about his defensive duties? That’s just absurd. Symptomatic of the wider issue in football. 
 

First priority isn’t to win the game, it’s to make sure you don’t lose it. 

That pretty much sums football thinking up below the elite teams. Sad isn’t it.

[Spellczech]

11 hours ago, sadj said:

That pretty much sums football thinking up below the elite teams. Sad isn’t it.

I guess that is why more people were into football in the 50s. They can say it is about competing interests and TV but come on...As Russell Crowe said " Are you not entertained?"

 

I just dived into a season - lowest result was 2 goals...

 

[sadj]

2 hours ago, Spellczech said:

I guess that is why more people were into football in the 50s. They can say it is about competing interests and TV but come on...As Russell Crowe said " Are you not entertained?"

 

I just dived into a season - lowest result was 2 goals...

 

Love how you “accidentally” ended with a 5-1 over the wee green pricks...

 

[Mr Brightside]

Was listening to a podcast that was discussing the impact of Brexit on football clubs. UK clubs will no longer be able to sign EU players under the age of 18. I think U21 they can sign 3 in one year and a max of 6 in total.

 

This could lead to a rise in the value of Scottish players as English teams look to fill their teams with British players. Therefore I think it would be foolish to scrap the academy now.

[Footballfirst]

One of our academy graduates scoring a cracking goal yesterday.

 

 

[Hesh]

I happened to be in Dundee yesterday and saw the U16s, clearly I wasn’t allowed to spectate, if anyone else wasn’t spectating what did they make of the game? Couple of decent lads I thought.

[Ibrahim Tall]

On 02/12/2020 at 21:41, Footballfirst said:

One of our loanees on the move again

 

 

Games are games but if we have any hopes of a(almost)19 year old making it to play for a club that ‘should’ be Top 4 in the SPFL surely to **** he should be playing a higher level than a mediocre Lowland League side?

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Ibrahim Tall

[Bigteam]

Another good result away from home last night against St Johnston for the so far unbeaten reserve/u18 side  

[jr ewing]

On 06/12/2020 at 10:14, Footballfirst said:

One of our academy graduates scoring a cracking goal yesterday.

 

 

Leahy always impressed me.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

The OP is an impossible question to answer without having a benchmark for how many players should be coming through. Is there an average number per year for clubs in Scotland in the Premiership that we should be aiming for or clubs our size in our countries for that matter?

 

The facts are that no other club has brought through a teenager of the calibre of Hickey in the last two seasons, or probably even in the last 5 seasons since Tierney at Celtic. Players of that quality come along very rarely, not just for us.

 

Irving is probably the most promising young midfielder in Scotland in the age group behind Ferguson, McCrorie and Campbell and he's still a couple of years behind them. I can't think of another 19 or 20 year old midfielder in Scotland looking as promising right now anyhow. Lewis Smith maybe?

 

No-one watching the kids who break through, like McGill most recently, can fail to be impressed by their composure and technical ability. Whether they have that extra something else that makes them a top player in the long-term or even a first team regular seems to be impossible to predict. 

 

 

 

[Hesh]

 

 

Wee clip from Tues u17 at Oriam

[allanwilson1970]

11 minutes ago, Hesh said:

 

 

Wee clip from Tues u17 at Oriam

 

We look shocking and miles below what has come before them the last 4 years, I have not seen this lot due to the lockdown but as I suspected not a player among them, that was also the rumour from the U18 from last season parents.

 

When  you think about Irving, McDonald, Cochrane, Smith, Hickey, Hamilton, Henderson compared to this it is night and day, we dont even look like a decent boys club team. @footballfirst can you confirm or not we have better coming through than this?

 

I know only 10 minutes clips but rotten compared to the standards at U17 and U18 I have seen the last seasons.

[Footballfirst]

44 minutes ago, allanwilson1970 said:

 

We look shocking and miles below what has come before them the last 4 years, I have not seen this lot due to the lockdown but as I suspected not a player among them, that was also the rumour from the U18 from last season parents.

 

When  you think about Irving, McDonald, Cochrane, Smith, Hickey, Hamilton, Henderson compared to this it is night and day, we dont even look like a decent boys club team. @footballfirst can you confirm or not we have better coming through than this?

 

I know only 10 minutes clips but rotten compared to the standards at U17 and U18 I have seen the last seasons.

I've expressed my concerns before, about the general standard of the next couple of age groups, as there are only one or two that look to have the ability to progress.  I've not had a chance to watch any academy sides since the lockdown, so it's difficult to say who have progressed and who have regressed.

 

I'm unsure about the age groups playing in the game against Hutchie.  U17 for Hearts should mean 2004s and 2005s as their groupings are defined by the calendar year (playing "summer" football). IIRC for boys clubs, if you are 17 on or after 1/1/21, then you qualify as an U17 all season. 

 

It looked like a few 2005s were playing, but I was having difficulty recognising the laddies.  Greig Allan (#12?) looked the most composed.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Footballfirst

[jr ewing]

55 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I've expressed my concerns before, about the general standard of the next couple of age groups, as there are only one or two that look to have the ability to progress.  I've not had a chance to watch any academy sides since the lockdown, so it's difficult to say who have progressed and who have regressed.

 

I'm unsure about the age groups playing in the game against Hutchie.  U17 for Hearts should mean 2004s and 2005s as their groupings are defined by the calendar year (playing "summer" football). IIRC for boys clubs, if you are 17 on or after 1/1/21, then you qualify as an U17 all season. 

 

It looked like a few 2005s were playing, but I was having difficulty recognising the laddies.  Greig Allan (#12?) looked the most composed.

Is it good value for money to keep this going? Would it not be better spent scouting the finished article?

[noskillson]

Academies can only develop the talent that is 

On 09/12/2020 at 06:10, ToqueJambo said:

The OP is an impossible question to answer without having a benchmark for how many players should be coming through. Is there an average number per year for clubs in Scotland in the Premiership that we should be aiming for or clubs our size in our countries for that matter?

 

The facts are that no other club has brought through a teenager of the calibre of Hickey in the last two seasons, or probably even in the last 5 seasons since Tierney at Celtic. Players of that quality come along very rarely, not just for us.

 

Irving is probably the most promising young midfielder in Scotland in the age group behind Ferguson, McCrorie and Campbell and he's still a couple of years behind them. I can't think of another 19 or 20 year old midfielder in Scotland looking as promising right now anyhow. Lewis Smith maybe?

 

No-one watching the kids who break through, like McGill most recently, can fail to be impressed by their composure and technical ability. Whether they have that extra something else that makes them a top player in the long-term or even a first team regular seems to be impossible to predict. 

 

 

 

Academies can only develop the talent that is available. I remember a quote "the national health service put an end to featherweight boxers"

Socio-economic factors have ended the stream of youngsters that were looking for a sports career out of poverty (maybe on other continents).

Football is elitist now--- looking for exceptional athletes with a gift for football...there's not enough to go around.  Expectations are driven by what we see at the top end of football but the reality is we have to accept that it's pretty ordinary at any other level

[Gorgie Boot boy]

The academy is being overhauled, mostly due to the covid 19 restrictions.

The community aspect took over the production of talent.

These will be separated over the coming year

[bobby bombscare]

2 hours ago, jr ewing said:

Is it good value for money to keep this going? Would it not be better spent scouting the finished article?

I think it only takes one graduate to sell for big money and it's all worthwhile. Like when CG went for big money. If one player comes through like that then it recoups itself. if you get one special player every 5-10 years and maybe a few squad players every couple years, then you're doing it right. 

I think we also got spoiled with Cochran's Celtic game and young Hickey getting chucked into the team. I think a lot of us have a vision in our head of youngsters breaking onto the scene at 16-18 and cementing a place. I don't think there is any club where that is a regular thing. For me, if I see the likes of Cochran, Irving, Henderson etc. becoming first team regulars by 21, then they're progressing at a decent rate.

I think what also doesn't help right now is we have a really swollen midfield (about 8 or 9 players for 2 or 3 positions depending on setup). Neilson is still trying to clear out some of the dross that are stuck there (like Damour) but also needs to try and get transfer fees for some of them to recoup some of the money CL wasted. So, ideally you want them playing just now so they can go in the shop window in January and the summer. Also, it's a better financial decision to loan out the youngsters as it's harder to loan out the older players cause of the wages they're on. It will also let the younger players get their confidence back away from the pressure of one of the biggest clubs in Scotland.

I've watched a few of the academy games over the years and there's quality players in there. Also, we've seen what these boys are capable of when they break through. It was only after they moved to the first team and Levein started 'coaching' them that they seemed to have performance issues. He managed to do that to the whole team, even Naisy, but as a youngster I'd guess that it does a lot more damage.  Now we need to wait and see if Neilson and Savage can save them after CL done his best to ruin their careers...

Basically. I think the quality is there! I just think their was a lot of damage done to them by Levein, as they were all great prospects until they were moved into the first team under him.

[jamboinglasgow]

17 minutes ago, Gorgie Boot boy said:

The academy is being overhauled, mostly due to the covid 19 restrictions.

The community aspect took over the production of talent.

These will be separated over the coming year

 

I presume by community aspect you mean the classes it runs for kids to come in and learn to play. 

I would be intrigued to hear more about the overhauling.

[Last Laff]

Surely the batch of academy prospects should now be looking fantastic because of all of Leveins work behind the scenes that was going to take 7-10 years to produce into the first team?   He took the role in 2014 so irregardless of how poor it's being said that batch I'll ignore it because I was told that on here. 

[Getintaethem]

They latest news about the brexit restrictions on foreign players makes it even more important that we get things right at academy level.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55360752

[HMFC 86]

On 18/12/2020 at 01:26, Last Laff said:

Surely the batch of academy prospects should now be looking fantastic because of all of Leveins work behind the scenes that was going to take 7-10 years to produce into the first team?   He took the role in 2014 so irregardless of how poor it's being said that batch I'll ignore it because I was told that on here. 

Still plenty of jam for tomorrow 

[Seymour M Hersh]

On 06/12/2020 at 10:14, Footballfirst said:

One of our academy graduates scoring a cracking goal yesterday.

 

 

 

Every bit as good a goal as Son's that somehow managed to win the award from Fifa/Uefa.

[jr ewing]

On 17/12/2020 at 23:57, bobby bombscare said:

I think it only takes one graduate to sell for big money and it's all worthwhile. Like when CG went for big money. If one player comes through like that then it recoups itself. if you get one special player every 5-10 years and maybe a few squad players every couple years, then you're doing it right. 

I think we also got spoiled with Cochran's Celtic game and young Hickey getting chucked into the team. I think a lot of us have a vision in our head of youngsters breaking onto the scene at 16-18 and cementing a place. I don't think there is any club where that is a regular thing. For me, if I see the likes of Cochran, Irving, Henderson etc. becoming first team regulars by 21, then they're progressing at a decent rate.

I think what also doesn't help right now is we have a really swollen midfield (about 8 or 9 players for 2 or 3 positions depending on setup). Neilson is still trying to clear out some of the dross that are stuck there (like Damour) but also needs to try and get transfer fees for some of them to recoup some of the money CL wasted. So, ideally you want them playing just now so they can go in the shop window in January and the summer. Also, it's a better financial decision to loan out the youngsters as it's harder to loan out the older players cause of the wages they're on. It will also let the younger players get their confidence back away from the pressure of one of the biggest clubs in Scotland.

I've watched a few of the academy games over the years and there's quality players in there. Also, we've seen what these boys are capable of when they break through. It was only after they moved to the first team and Levein started 'coaching' them that they seemed to have performance issues. He managed to do that to the whole team, even Naisy, but as a youngster I'd guess that it does a lot more damage.  Now we need to wait and see if Neilson and Savage can save them after CL done his best to ruin their careers...

Basically. I think the quality is there! I just think their was a lot of damage done to them by Levein, as they were all great prospects until they were moved into the first team under him.

That's one graduate a year just to break even on the running of the Academy. That hasn't happened in the past and I've no reason to believe that will change any time soon. Bin for now. 

[bobby bombscare]

1 hour ago, jr ewing said:

That's one graduate a year just to break even on the running of the Academy. That hasn't happened in the past and I've no reason to believe that will change any time soon. Bin for now. 

Forgot i posted this.. Just announced on another thread that it was my first post haha!
Anyway, I don't think you can really aim to be successful in modern football without an academy of some sort or a cash happy owner.. We defo don't have a cash happy owner so we have to have an academy really. 

Maybe roll it back a bit and reduce the investment? But i think trying to run as a fan owned club with no academy is a recipe for disaster.

Either that or sell up the fan owned side to another mad Vlad type.. and i dinny fancy that! haha

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by bobby bombscare

[DETTY29]

15 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Every bit as good a goal as Son's that somehow managed to win the award from Fifa/Uefa.

Unfortunately we don't quite chase out guys like Nicholson, but we believe that better can be found somewhere, anywhere because an SN isn't good enough for our aspirations.

 

It's all hindsight but I wish he had never left.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, DETTY29 said:

Unfortunately we don't quite chase out guys like Nicholson, but we believe that better can be found somewhere, anywhere because an SN isn't good enough for our aspirations.

 

It's all hindsight but I wish he had never left.

That wasn't our choice though was it? I have in mind we wanted him to stay. 

[DETTY29]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

That wasn't our choice though was it? I have in mind we wanted him to stay. 

So many faces difficult to keep up, but how many fans were gutted that a pacey, direct goal scoring winger left.

 

I probably said myself 'we'll easily get better'

 

How niave.

[bobby bombscare]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

That wasn't our choice though was it? I have in mind we wanted him to stay. 

I don't think there is a single player since RS that at least a half of hearts fans don't think is good enough.

I mind people saying Hickey wasn't good enough for the first team at the end of last season! 😂

But aye, woulda liked to have kept him. Lets hope Neilson brings the youth on now like they were coming through during his first stint!

[jr ewing]

8 hours ago, bobby bombscare said:

Forgot i posted this.. Just announced on another thread that it was my first post haha!
Anyway, I don't think you can really aim to be successful in modern football without an academy of some sort or a cash happy owner.. We defo don't have a cash happy owner so we have to have an academy really. 

Maybe roll it back a bit and reduce the investment? But i think trying to run as a fan owned club with no academy is a recipe for disaster.

Either that or sell up the fan owned side to another mad Vlad type.. and i dinny fancy that! haha

 

The club existed for years before academies were even thought of. Economically it's an expense we can do without, as much as ,in theory, may seem to be a reasonable  idea. It only works if younger players come in to the team and are good enough to hold down a place for a season or two.

[Hesh]

I think the Academy should do 3 things

 

produce players for the first team

produce marketable players who can be sold for a profit

interact/be an interface with the community

 

In 2020 clubs should have academies but it’s how they’re being run that should be questioned.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Hesh

[jr ewing]

2 hours ago, Hesh said:

I think the Academy should do 3 things

 

produce players for the first team

produce marketable players who can be sold for a profit

interact/be an interface with the community

 

In 2020 clubs should have academies but it’s how they’re being run that should be questioned.

 

 

 

1 and 2 hasn't happened yet and it's been going a number of years now. Community associations are done now in excellent collaborations. 

[bobby bombscare]

8 hours ago, jr ewing said:

The club existed for years before academies were even thought of. Economically it's an expense we can do without, as much as ,in theory, may seem to be a reasonable  idea. It only works if younger players come in to the team and are good enough to hold down a place for a season or two.

in modern football, you wither have a cash happy owner who's happy not to see a return on their investment, or you have an academy. We operated for years with cash happy owners and had consistently ended up with financial difficulties as a result. So either we sell the club back to another mad vlad type, the foundation starts pumping double their current amount into the club, or we keep the academy.

Not even saying the same size of academy.. just SOME form of academy say from under16's to the first team.

[steven_mck]

On 01/12/2020 at 09:56, Nunya Business said:

 

Cochrane - on loan at Montrose. 

Hickey - came from Celtic. 

Morrison - released and now in League 1. 

Irving - can't get into the side ahead of Olly Lee.

Moore - Nowhere to be seen.

Smith - Released.

Henderson - Debut 3 years ago, 23 appearances since.

Angus Keith - Released with 2 appearances to his name.

Calum Paterson - You're about 2 years too late there.

 

Good one mate  

Wasn't struggling to think up names but yea, get your point Lol

[OTT]

The academy hasn't been producing players good enough. I think that is beyond doubt. Hickey wasn't an academy prospect, so he to my mind doesn't count. 

 

Irving since 2014 is the only academy prospect to hold down a position in the team. Walker, Nicholson, King, Paterson, Holt all came through beforehand so don't count. 

 

In 6 years our academy hasn't produced and I think there are serious questions that need to be asked as to why this is. I do appreciate that there was always going to be a 'lag' between 2014 and when the academy would start to produce (as the academy had been gutted before so there was a lack of players good enough initially). But 6 years later we're still waiting the investment being justified. 

 

I'm absolutely in favour of retaining the academy, but I want to know why in the last 3 years we've not really produced anyone. Irving is literally the only one. McDonald and Cochrane haven't been able to stake a claim and Moore, Henderson & Morrison aren't good enough. I'm still holding out hope for Connor Smith, and I know the laddie Flatman and Stone are both rated but its just a very weak return for the sort of money which has been spent. 

 

I'm pleased Joe Savage is coming in as hopefully he'll be able to examine this and perhaps pinpoint why this is. Its been really disappointing, Motherwell on the flip side have been producing quality hand over fist. Should we be looking at their academy director? Erwin, Cadden, Jake Hastie,  Turnbull, Campbell, James Scott, Stuart McKinstry, Sam Campbell. Plus quality signings in players like Gillespie, Moult, Gallagher, Kipre, Donnelly (etc) has them punching well above their weight. How are they utilising their resources so effectively but we're squandering ours? We should be doing so much better than we are, especially considering the blank slate Levein had to work with. Its an absolute disgrace. 

 

I want to see more effort from Robbie to include academy grads in the first team. McGill has obviously stepped up well and thankfully Irving is finally getting game time. But For this to work we need more. 

[Pilmuir]

On 20/12/2020 at 00:31, DETTY29 said:

Unfortunately we don't quite chase out guys like Nicholson, but we believe that better can be found somewhere, anywhere because an SN isn't good enough for our aspirations.

 

It's all hindsight but I wish he had never left.

I agree that there is no point allowing Academy players to leave unless you can replace them with better prospects. Nicholson got a lot of stick on here but he had pace, a goal threat and was/is a Hearts fan. Have we brought in a better winger since?

 

Same goes for Morrison, slated by many on Kickback and the consequence of him leaving is the presence of Frear and Roberts. Makes no sense.

[allanwilson1970]

Was looking over the results last few games from our loan players and ex-players from 1999,2000,2001,2002. Reality is very different from what we were told to expect from these age groups.

 

Harry Stone – sub Spartans

Danny Baur – sub and starting 11 Spartans

Sean Ward – sub Gala Fairydean

Leroy Marakova – left Brechin was in and out team, not sure where he is now 

Jay Sandison – sub Linlithgow Rose

Connor Smith – sub Arbroath, no minutes 

Harry Cochrane – subbed at 45 and 55 minutes last 2 games

Chris Hamilton – plays every game Dumbarton

Rory Currie – plays every game Brechin

Dean Ritchie - played last 2 games Airdrie 

Kelby Mason - signed Edinburgh City but not played, injured?

Antony McDonald – injured but got a great move

Callumn Morrison – Falkirk’s main player

Mackenzie Lawler – sub Berwick Rangers

Brodie Strang – sub or not stripped Linlithgow Rose

 

Above does not read great.  @footballfirst any I have missed ? are any 2003 players loaned out as cant see any announcements ?

[Footballfirst]

15 minutes ago, allanwilson1970 said:

Above does not read great.  @footballfirst any I have missed ? are any 2003 players loaned out as cant see any announcements ?

Leeroy is now at Gala.   Leo Watson is the only 2003 that I know of who has gone out on loan.  He has been playing regularly for Bonnyrigg in the LL.

[allanwilson1970]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Leeroy is now at Gala.   Leo Watson is the only 2003 that I know of who has gone out on loan.  He has been playing regularly for Bonnyrigg in the LL.

 

Thanks FF, I think Leo Watson has a great chance to step up. Do you know about contracts for some of the players who are on loan like Sandison, Marakova, Lawler or others as I have not seen any updates from the club

[Footballfirst]

2 minutes ago, allanwilson1970 said:

 

Thanks FF, I think Leo Watson has a great chance to step up. Do you know about contracts for some of the players who are on loan like Sandison, Marakova, Lawler or others as I have not seen any updates from the club

Lawler and Sandison are both out of contract in January. Cochrane, Makavora and possibly Ward are out of contract in the summer.

[Tazio]

I had hopes for Makarova as he looked the most advanced physically of the youngsters. Obviously not the ability to back it up sadly. 

[allanwilson1970]

22 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

Lawler and Sandison are both out of contract in January. Cochrane, Makavora and possibly Ward are out of contract in the summer.

 

Do you know if our U18s are playing games? 

[Footballfirst]

29 minutes ago, allanwilson1970 said:

 

Do you know if our U18s are playing games? 

Yes, certainly up to a couple of weeks ago.  They seem to be doing pretty well this season, although I think that will be partly down to playing a relatively experienced side that has been together for a while.

 

Edit : someone on another thread suggested that they had had some good wins against the top sides.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Lone Striker]

To provide a  slightly different angle on the apparent inability of Hearts  to produce enough young players to make it at the top level of Scottish football, we've brought several young players from other club academies straight into our  U-16/17/18 over the last few years - as opposed to bringing 10-12 yearolds through the various in-house levels.

 

Some have succeeded at our level or above (David Templeton and Aaron Hickey). 

Others haven't (Callum Tapping, Russell McLean, Dario Zanatta)

A few are still at a  "maybe" stage (Jamie Brandon, Harry Cochrane, Harry Paton)

 

@Footballfirst could no doubt name others.  But the point I'm trying to illustrate is that our record at picking up youngsters in the 15-17 age group from other academies (when their abilities should be becoming clear) is only a bit  better than producing in-house youngsters.

 

 

[Footballfirst]

13 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

To provide a  slightly different angle on the apparent inability of Hearts  to produce enough young players to make it at the top level of Scottish football, we've brought several young players from other club academies straight into our  U-16/17/18 over the last few years - as opposed to bringing 10-12 yearolds through the various in-house levels.

 

Some have succeeded at our level or above (David Templeton and Aaron Hickey). 

Others haven't (Callum Tapping, Russell McLean, Dario Zanatta)

A few are still at a  "maybe" stage (Jamie Brandon, Harry Cochrane, Harry Paton)

 

@Footballfirst could no doubt name others.  But the point I'm trying to illustrate is that our record at picking up youngsters in the 15-17 age group from other academies (when their abilities should be becoming clear) is only a bit  better than producing in-house youngsters.

There are other late recruits who have succeeded such as Callum Paterson, plus others who came to Hearts later in their development but have continued to play at a decent level such as Brad McKay, Keven McHattie, Liam Gordon, Harry Paton and Gary Oliver.

 

The biggest difficulty in recruiting players from other academies in the 15-17 age bracket is the cost (roughly £10k per season from age 11).  Hearts probably don't want to risk £40k-£60k on a youngster, so make do with those who other clubs have released as not good enough for them, e.g. Brandon and Currie.  It's hardly surprising when they don't reach the levels you are looking for.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Footballfirst

[Hesh]

9 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

To provide a  slightly different angle on the apparent inability of Hearts  to produce enough young players to make it at the top level of Scottish football, we've brought several young players from other club academies straight into our  U-16/17/18 over the last few years - as opposed to bringing 10-12 yearolds through the various in-house levels.

 

Some have succeeded at our level or above (David Templeton and Aaron Hickey). 

Others haven't (Callum Tapping, Russell McLean, Dario Zanatta)

A few are still at a  "maybe" stage (Jamie Brandon, Harry Cochrane, Harry Paton)

 

@Footballfirst could no doubt name others.  But the point I'm trying to illustrate is that our record at picking up youngsters in the 15-17 age group from other academies (when their abilities should be becoming clear) is only a bit  better than producing in-house youngsters.

 

 

the big question is if other academies are releasing kids at 15-17 are they any good or what can our Academy offer that the academy they are at can’t. Surely boys club would be the place to look at? U17s could well be at the stage of getting ‘EOS’ league experience. 

ive always had a worry that 10-12 year olds are often ‘shirt fillers’ for the one or two kids a club are seriously interested in. 

 

 

[Hesh]

15 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

There are other late recruits who have succeeded such as Callum Paterson, plus others who came to Hearts later in their development but have continued to play at a decent level such as Brad McKay, Keven McHattie, Liam Gordon, Harry Paton and Gary Oliver.

 

The biggest difficulty in recruiting players from other academies in the 15-17 age bracket is the cost (roughly £10k per season from age 11).  Hearts probably don't want to risk £40k-£60k on a youngster, so make do with those who other clubs have released as not good enough for them, e.g. Brandon and Currie.  It's hardly surprising when they don't reach the levels you are looking for.

didn’t really know about the 10k a season bit. Is there some compensation still payable once a kid is released? I take it not.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Hesh

[Footballfirst]

11 minutes ago, Hesh said:

didn’t really know about the 10k a season bit. Is there some compensation still payable once a kid is released?

The development contribution is not payable if a club hasn't offered to resign the player or renew a contract.

 

Just checked the numbers (per year's development).

It is £5k from 11-14 and £10k from 15-19 for players with Premiership clubs.

For other SPFL clubs it's £3k 12-14, £6k at 15 and £9k at 16-19.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 30-Sep-20 (MASTER COPY B) CLEAN.pdf

 

See sections F23-36

Edited December 30, 2020 by Footballfirst

[allanwilson1970]

42 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The development contribution is not payable if a club hasn't offered to resign the player or renew a contract.

 

Just checked the numbers (per year's development).

It is £5k from 11-14 and £10k from 15-19 for players with Premiership clubs.

For other SPFL clubs it's £3k 12-14, £6k at 15 and £9k at 16-19.

 

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 30-Sep-20 (MASTER COPY B) CLEAN.pdf

 

See sections F23-36

 

Never knew such big sums were involved for young players, I must have spoken to 20-30 parents over last few years in the academy at games and no one mentioned. Is this a new rule?

 

Changing the subject FF but do you know how Chris Hamilton is doing on loan? I see he is starting every game but can't find anything about his position or performances. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

To provide a  slightly different angle on the apparent inability of Hearts  to produce enough young players to make it at the top level of Scottish football, we've brought several young players from other club academies straight into our  U-16/17/18 over the last few years - as opposed to bringing 10-12 yearolds through the various in-house levels.

 

Some have succeeded at our level or above (David Templeton and Aaron Hickey). 

Others haven't (Callum Tapping, Russell McLean, Dario Zanatta)

A few are still at a  "maybe" stage (Jamie Brandon, Harry Cochrane, Harry Paton)

 

@Footballfirst could no doubt name others.  But the point I'm trying to illustrate is that our record at picking up youngsters in the 15-17 age group from other academies (when their abilities should be becoming clear) is only a bit  better than producing in-house youngsters.

 

 

 

I'm interested in the timescale for this and what sort of benchmark we should be looking at in terms of what would be an acceptable number coming through? In other words how have other teams done in the same time period? 

 

Looking at your list David Templeton goes back to 2007, making his debut in 2008. From around that time, I make it these players have come through our youth system to establish themselves at a club at the top level in Scotland (SPFL Premiership) or an equivalent or higher level elsewhere and have very decent careers, some still ongoing and some just starting, including quite a few internationals for various countries:

 

Ryan McGowan

Eggert Jonsson

Andy Driver

Calum Paterson

Jamie MacDonald

Scott Robinson

Jason Holt

Aaron Hickey

Andrew Irving

Liam Smith

Jamie Walker

Sam Nicholson

 

Even the likes of Dylan McGowan (capped for Oz) and Marcus Godinho (capped for Canada) have had or are having half decent careers.

 

In the period before we brought through the likes of Berra, Gordon, Wallace so the overall quality does seem to have gone down with only Hickey and maybe Paterson being at their level (established internationals), but the quantity of young players getting games seems to have gone up. 

 

 

[jr ewing]

12 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

I'm interested in the timescale for this and what sort of benchmark we should be looking at in terms of what would be an acceptable number coming through? In other words how have other teams done in the same time period? 

 

Looking at your list David Templeton goes back to 2007, making his debut in 2008. From around that time, I make it these players have come through our youth system to establish themselves at a club at the top level in Scotland (SPFL Premiership) or an equivalent or higher level elsewhere and have very decent careers, some still ongoing and some just starting, including quite a few internationals for various countries:

 

Ryan McGowan

Eggert Jonsson

Andy Driver

Calum Paterson

Jamie MacDonald

Scott Robinson

Jason Holt

Aaron Hickey

Andrew Irving

Liam Smith

Jamie Walker

Sam Nicholson

 

Even the likes of Dylan McGowan (capped for Oz) and Marcus Godinho (capped for Canada) have had or are having half decent careers.

 

In the period before we brought through the likes of Berra, Gordon, Wallace so the overall quality does seem to have gone down with only Hickey and maybe Paterson being at their level (established internationals), but the quantity of young players getting games seems to have gone up. 

 

 

Much easier to identify a player that will possibly make the grade at 18 and older. That's the market we should be looking at.