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Pasquale for King
On 22/11/2020 at 17:42, Pilmuir said:

Re the point about the impatience of some of our supporters being a barrier to fielding young players, surely this is the perfect time to do it i.e. no supporters in the stadium to shout at them. We also have some older heads to bring on the young ones e.g. Gordon, Naismith, Boyce, Smith, Berra. This is how Alex McDonald and Jim Jefferies built successful teams.

 

As things stand, the likes of Frear and Roberts do not look like an upgrade on Henderson, Moore or the departed Morrison and McDonald. There is an issue not only with the Academy graduates but the players we bring in from outside.

 

If the current squad succeed in getting us promoted, these are still issues that have to be addressed.

Absolutely, I would add Halliday for Irving too. 

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Pasquale for King
9 hours ago, Coco said:

Looking back it is incredible how many were hoodwinked by Levein and his dribble about youth development.  A couple of reasonable players through their youth system and a couple of young players signed at Dundee United does not mean he was someone who should have been given free reign at Hearts.

 

In charge of the Academy he put a Council active schools coordinator - and 6 to 7 years on that guy has still never produced a first choice first team player (bar Hickey) and never garnered a proper transfer fee.  On a £4m plus spend!

 

He allowed cash to flow to Macphee's side business - maybe it still does.

 

He talked player development and filling a team full of youth academy players but then went out and signed 15 to 20 players each season - most of them garbage.  Eventually even Ann Budge publicly recognised how youth players route to the first team had been blocked.

 

I think there were lots of people who thought he was doing something special.  Just a slavering punter with the ability to fool the Board and some of the fans.  Hopefully JJ is taking a proper look at Levein's mess.

Spot on, the apologists will be along shortly to defend him  

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24 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Good.  Makes one wonder why you intervened at all...

Does it? I clearly stated the issues you have with regards social media....and you just continue with no self reflection whatsoever. This is a theme with your relentless desire to be proven right no matter what the circumstances. 

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41 minutes ago, Phage said:

I reckon our academy has been alright. Decent wee crop coming through. Hickey just sold for big cash. 

 

The difference is at Hamilton etc, the young lads get thrown into the first team and stay there to sink or swim. Or lads get 'introduced' in and because they are not the finished article or next Rudi, we all say there rubbish and they slip in and out of the team 

 

Anyway, I reckon the academy standard is pretty good at the moment. Seen some dross come through in the first team in the last few decades.

 

 

Best post on this thread. 

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1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Like all of us you really haven’t seen Cochrane or McDonald playing first team football for nearly two years. Both have struggled badly with injuries and growing up to the extent that neither have been impressive enough at reserve team level to do any more than maybe just retain their place in the reserve team. If a player doesn’t do it in the reserves why would any manager give him a game in the first team? 
Hard to believe that it’s virtually three years since Cochrane scored the opener against Celtic and was then sent off the following week. Neither of the two players you mention has been selected for Scotland since their u17 days and even then they were not first picks. 
Sometimes, in fact nearly most times,  we just have to admit that players that look great prospects at 16/17 never really mature into seasoned, high-performing players. I’ll give you Weir, Mole, Simmons et al. Sadly I suspect those two will follow the usual path. 

McDonald played games for ICT on loan and was on loan at Dunfermline but was injured, Stendel recalled him and Cochrane and then didnt play them. Cochrane did play reserve team but McDonald was with 1st team constantly, so that maybe beats your theory about neither have been impresive enough, if not impressing then why with 1st team.  In the Scotland debate, McDonald started 2 of the last 3 games he has been called up for and Cochrane the same. Both players have suffered from injury but to be fair the Scotland thing is a bit of a red herring...Hickey hasnt played a minute...Irving barely getting a look in...so wouldnt read too much into that as the club have a lot of say on the boys going or staying and I know all of the boys have been stopped from going with the national team because the club needed them.

 

I see your argument but on the flip side if you dont develop and play players then how are they supposed to get better. Do you really think Mulraney\Amankwa were better than McDonald, Bozanic\Damour better than Cochrane. When the boys came through they were the best 2 young player sin the country and Levein said he expected big things...he then bought 20players and then 6 months later bought some more, the next window even more so there wan zero path for them to get into the team...difficult to say but the boys probably played in abetter team when CL took over than when he left!!

 

Is McDonald better than Robert\Frear\Ginnelly...in my opinion yes, but thats just my opinion. Irving\Cochrane are better than Lee, Damour...think the question is how do you go from where they were to Harry playing for Montrose and Anthony off to Spain, which I think will be a great move for him,....why werent they developed, they should have been huge assets for the club but poor management means they will leave to rebuild their careers. 

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26 minutes ago, JamTarts98 said:

Does it? I clearly stated the issues you have with regards social media....and you just continue with no self reflection whatsoever. This is a theme with your relentless desire to be proven right no matter what the circumstances. 

You seem to be on a personal pur down and appear to have interference issues.  I did not have anything to be proved right or wrong about on this thread.  I merely stated a fact that a post had nothing to do with academy produce.  You have since agreed it had ZERO relevance.  Is that correct?

 

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21 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

McDonald played games for ICT on loan and was on loan at Dunfermline but was injured, Stendel recalled him and Cochrane and then didnt play them. Cochrane did play reserve team but McDonald was with 1st team constantly, so that maybe beats your theory about neither have been impresive enough, if not impressing then why with 1st team.  In the Scotland debate, McDonald started 2 of the last 3 games he has been called up for and Cochrane the same. Both players have suffered from injury but to be fair the Scotland thing is a bit of a red herring...Hickey hasnt played a minute...Irving barely getting a look in...so wouldnt read too much into that as the club have a lot of say on the boys going or staying and I know all of the boys have been stopped from going with the national team because the club needed them.

 

I see your argument but on the flip side if you dont develop and play players then how are they supposed to get better. Do you really think Mulraney\Amankwa were better than McDonald, Bozanic\Damour better than Cochrane. When the boys came through they were the best 2 young player sin the country and Levein said he expected big things...he then bought 20players and then 6 months later bought some more, the next window even more so there wan zero path for them to get into the team...difficult to say but the boys probably played in abetter team when CL took over than when he left!!

 

Is McDonald better than Robert\Frear\Ginnelly...in my opinion yes, but thats just my opinion. Irving\Cochrane are better than Lee, Damour...think the question is how do you go from where they were to Harry playing for Montrose and Anthony off to Spain, which I think will be a great move for him,....why werent they developed, they should have been huge assets for the club but poor management means they will leave to rebuild their careers. 

Well, I watched McD a number of times in reserve matches last season so not sure of your point. He isn’t a winger in any case, more of a number 10 or false 9 or whatever they call the guy that plays off the main striker these days. 
Don’t think you can put the blame on management, it’s up to the player to make his way and his name. Neither of those two have done themselves any good with their attitudes, lack of attention to what it takes to make the breakthrough etc. 

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6 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

You seem to be on a personal pur down and appear to have interference issues.  I did not have anything to be proved right or wrong about on this thread.  I merely stated a fact that a post had nothing to do with academy produce.  You have since agreed it had ZERO relevance.  Is that correct?

 

You clearly need help. I can put you in touch with great people.

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34 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

McDonald played games for ICT on loan and was on loan at Dunfermline but was injured, Stendel recalled him and Cochrane and then didnt play them. Cochrane did play reserve team but McDonald was with 1st team constantly, so that maybe beats your theory about neither have been impresive enough, if not impressing then why with 1st team.  In the Scotland debate, McDonald started 2 of the last 3 games he has been called up for and Cochrane the same. Both players have suffered from injury but to be fair the Scotland thing is a bit of a red herring...Hickey hasnt played a minute...Irving barely getting a look in...so wouldnt read too much into that as the club have a lot of say on the boys going or staying and I know all of the boys have been stopped from going with the national team because the club needed them.

 

I see your argument but on the flip side if you dont develop and play players then how are they supposed to get better. Do you really think Mulraney\Amankwa were better than McDonald, Bozanic\Damour better than Cochrane. When the boys came through they were the best 2 young player sin the country and Levein said he expected big things...he then bought 20players and then 6 months later bought some more, the next window even more so there wan zero path for them to get into the team...difficult to say but the boys probably played in abetter team when CL took over than when he left!!

 

Is McDonald better than Robert\Frear\Ginnelly...in my opinion yes, but thats just my opinion. Irving\Cochrane are better than Lee, Damour...think the question is how do you go from where they were to Harry playing for Montrose and Anthony off to Spain, which I think will be a great move for him,....why werent they developed, they should have been huge assets for the club but poor management means they will leave to rebuild their careers. 

Good post.  👍    These are good examples which sum up the frustration & doubts many of us fans have about our coaching and recruitment.

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7 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, I watched McD a number of times in reserve matches last season so not sure of your point. He isn’t a winger in any case, more of a number 10 or false 9 or whatever they call the guy that plays off the main striker these days. 
Don’t think you can put the blame on management, it’s up to the player to make his way and his name. Neither of those two have done themselves any good with their attitudes, lack of attention to what it takes to make the breakthrough etc. 

I agree with this up to a point.  Many young lads fail to fulfil their early promise at every club and in every sport.

The academy when set up was brilliant in concept but it is unlikely that anyone, CL included, who undertook a cost/benefit analysis, could conclude that it had been a great success.  Why is that?  I don't know but have wondered if we have been over ambitious in having so many players/teams so giving the impression of quantity over quality, although admittedly it is difficult to forecast who is going to make it or not.  With fewer players to oversee, those who are with us could possibly get more/better one-to-one coaching with care being taken not to knock the free spirit out of the more naturally gifted lads.  All of that of course assumes we have the right coaches in situ to start with.

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12 minutes ago, JamTarts98 said:

You clearly need help. I can put you in touch with great people.

No thanks.

They haven't done much of a job on you.

Edited by JamboAl
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8 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

No thanks.

They haven't done much of a job on you.

Do you feel better about yourself if you always get the last word even if it's a petty and pointless squabble? You seem to do this with regularity.

Edited by JamTarts98
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12 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, I watched McD a number of times in reserve matches last season so not sure of your point. He isn’t a winger in any case, more of a number 10 or false 9 or whatever they call the guy that plays off the main striker these days. 
Don’t think you can put the blame on management, it’s up to the player to make his way and his name. Neither of those two have done themselves any good with their attitudes, lack of attention to what it takes to make the breakthrough etc. 

Possibly.   But the converse is the reason for our criticism - there are some players who seem to impress the coaches enough to get regular games, yet many (maybe most) fans don't see why they're being selected ahead of  decent youngsters who need exposure in the first team.     Cochrane  looked good in several first team games a couple of years ago, yet somehow fell out of favour and is now apparently way behind Olly Lee.       Do we really want to see Connor Smith go the same way when he returns from loan, due to not getting a run in the first team ?   Irving has responded well to getting a prolonged run the first team.

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1 hour ago, JamTarts98 said:

Is it the best post purely because you agree with it? 

 

 

Maybe but imo, fair balanced and to the point. 

Not full of pish, wind and make believe. 

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12 hours ago, buzzbomb said:

Young talent we could have bought instead of paying large salaries for people like damour for instance. Nisbet, mccrorie, Lewis Ferguson, dykes. We bought souttar. Campbell at Motherwell, mccann at st Johnstone could be bought and paid for using money spent on damour and have sell on value. 

Get that sentiment mate. A lot of the above players with potential have now become established. No question, your point still stands - there are bargains to be had and purchased and if you look closely at it. Our recruitment hasn't been good in this particular area over recent years. 

I just feel and with the way that football is changing that there is still value in retaining an academy. Would much rather invest money in producing the best potential and then sell them off than pay, say, 100-200 k in the hope that we can sell the same player off for more money.

That all said, I would have thought that we would have had far more players from the academy playing regularly so what I would like to personally see is a complete revamp and overhaul of current affairs, and with a view to creating one that does produce players. The alternative as some have said is getting rid, but I personally don't believe that this is the way to go (All IMO of course) 

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1 hour ago, JamTarts98 said:

Do you feel better about yourself if you always get the last word even if it's a petty and pointless squabble? You seem to do this with regularity.

Ecstatic especially if I suspect it is an interloper.

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9 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Possibly.   But the converse is the reason for our criticism - there are some players who seem to impress the coaches enough to get regular games, yet many (maybe most) fans don't see why they're being selected ahead of  decent youngsters who need exposure in the first team.     Cochrane  looked good in several first team games a couple of years ago, yet somehow fell out of favour and is now apparently way behind Olly Lee.       Do we really want to see Connor Smith go the same way when he returns from loan, due to not getting a run in the first team ?   Irving has responded well to getting a prolonged run the first team.

Well, if Connor Smith  can’t get a start for Arbroath why would our management team think about starting him for us? 
Cochrane had several injuries one after the other after his breakthrough season. Hasn’t been the same player since. 

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9 hours ago, Hearts1975 said:

Get that sentiment mate. A lot of the above players with potential have now become established. No question, your point still stands - there are bargains to be had and purchased and if you look closely at it. Our recruitment hasn't been good in this particular area over recent years. 

I just feel and with the way that football is changing that there is still value in retaining an academy. Would much rather invest money in producing the best potential and then sell them off than pay, say, 100-200 k in the hope that we can sell the same player off for more money.

That all said, I would have thought that we would have had far more players from the academy playing regularly so what I would like to personally see is a complete revamp and overhaul of current affairs, and with a view to creating one that does produce players. The alternative as some have said is getting rid, but I personally don't believe that this is the way to go (All IMO of course) 

This is what I think the foundation money should ultimately be used for. Buying up the young talent at other sides just as it starts to become established in someone’s first team. I’d also be in the market for other academies best players. However, we have to be prepared to play these young players.
 

In general we like the idea of young players coming through as long as they don’t affect results, are no risk and are already the finished article.

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19 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

This is what I think the foundation money should ultimately be used for. Buying up the young talent at other sides just as it starts to become established in someone’s first team. I’d also be in the market for other academies best players. However, we have to be prepared to play these young players.
 

In general we like the idea of young players coming through as long as they don’t affect results, are no risk and are already the finished article.

Fully agree. We are producing them and have been producing them. We Just need to get them more involved and with more playing time (again imo).


It is a balance but it’s the only way that they can become established first team regulars 

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1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, if Connor Smith  can’t get a start for Arbroath why would our management team think about starting him for us? 
Cochrane had several injuries one after the other after his breakthrough season. Hasn’t been the same player since. 

Sending Smith to Arbroath seems a crazy decision. Campbell is notorious for not playing young players. Plus, Hearts are not or should not be playing football the way Arbroath are. I wouldn’t expect Smith to fit in at Arbroath but he should be much more suited to Hearts.

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1 minute ago, Hearts1975 said:

Fully agree. We are producing them and have been producing them. We Just need to get them more involved and with more playing time (again imo).


It is a balance but it’s the only way that they can become established first team regulars 

Someone’s point about Hickey only playing because there was no one else is a good one and look what happened. And, that unfortunately is generally how football development for young players goes. You only get it out of necessity. 

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3 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Someone’s point about Hickey only playing because there was no one else is a good one and look what happened. And, that unfortunately is generally how football development for young players goes. You only get it out of necessity. 

True but that’s down to each individual manager making that choice. I’m not disagreeing with you in that most cases the young lads have played regularly, and due to necessity, but as said, that’s because a choice is made by whoever is managing the side.

Hicky being a prime example of what can happen when you do give them game time and regardless of the reasons. 
IIRC Hicky was thought of as a good player but no better than a few others in the under 20’s

And look what happened ... 

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joondalupjambo

Thirty five pages so it may have been mentioned already however what is Gary Locke's actual job?  I know his job title is Club Ambassador but it would be good to know what his job description is and what the actual tasks are in it.  Seems a a bit of a jolly to me and thought these roles were only part time, be looks to be a full time employ.  Like him but he certainly appears to have his feet well and truly under the table.

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8 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

True but that’s down to each individual manager making that choice. I’m not disagreeing with you in that most cases the young lads have played regularly, and due to necessity, but as said, that’s because a choice is made by whoever is managing the side.

Hicky being a prime example of what can happen when you do give them game time and regardless of the reasons. 
IIRC Hicky was thought of as a good player but no better than a few others in the under 20’s

And look what happened ... 

👍🏻

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1 hour ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, if Connor Smith  can’t get a start for Arbroath why would our management team think about starting him for us? 
Cochrane had several injuries one after the other after his breakthrough season. Hasn’t been the same player since. 

 

Connor Smith was given a start at Easter Rd and was excellent. And then he disappeared off the radar and has now been farmed out.

 

What's the point?

 

And here is a quote from Levein after we played a few kids away at Killie a few months before in May 2018:

 

“It’ll do them the world of good, but I thought Chris Hamilton was particularly good, given the size difference between him and Kris Boyd, who’s a handful for any centre-half at times. Chrissy has an old head on his shoulders.

“He understands the art of defending, he just knows where to be. It’s almost like a striker’s instinct in that he knows where the ball’s going to be. He even stood up to Boydy at times which is brave, given he was standing in front of a train.

“Connor Smith also came on in midfield and showed why we have really high hopes for him"

 

So what happened, Craig?

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SectionDJambo
17 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Thirty five pages so it may have been mentioned already however what is Gary Locke's actual job?  I know his job title is Club Ambassador but it would be good to know what his job description is and what the actual tasks are in it.  Seems a a bit of a jolly to me and thought these roles were only part time, be looks to be a full time employ.  Like him but he certainly appears to have his feet well and truly under the table.

I would imagine his job is to engage with sponsors, corporate guests, supporters' organisations, charities etc..

It may not be a job paid on full time hours, but he seems to enjoy the job and have such an enthusiasm, and love for Hearts, that he will turn up at times he isn't getting paid, because he is happy when at our club. 

We could do with his positivity infecting others who, unfortunately, can't separate disappointment and frustration, from hostility towards the club.

And, please understand, I'm not suggesting that you fall into that category.

And I think you may have posted on the wrong thread.

Edited by SectionDJambo
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We don't even have one academy player who can win a starting spot in the Championship ffs. It's an absolute joke. 

 

The reality is this club should be top 3 and the lads coming into the first team should be expected to make their mark at that level. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems the majority of the lads we bring through seem to be for the benefit of lower league clubs or, non league clubs rather than ourselves. 

 

It's not any better than when I started watching Hearts when we had Locky, Ritchie, Alan McManus, Kevin Thomas etc.. on yts contracts. 

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joondalupjambo
8 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

I would imagine his job is to engage with sponsors, corporate guests, supporters' organisations, charities etc..

It may not be a job paid on full time hours, but he seems to enjoy the job and have such an enthusiasm, and love for Hearts, that he will turn up at times he isn't getting paid, because he is happy when at our club. 

We could do with his positivity infecting others who, unfortunately, can't separate disappointment and frustration, from hostility towards the club.

And, please understand, I'm not suggesting that you fall into that category.

And I think you may have posted on the wrong thread.

Yeah think you are probably close here with your thoughts.

I guess I was thinking, wrongly that it could be a full time role and that he was being paid a good wedge while we might be paying other employees off.

Agree 100 more like Gary and the positive vibes at the club would be through the roof.  

 

And thanks I was on the wrong topic, thought I was on the one about the Hearts BBC doco, was going between that one and this one at the time of typing. Aging is a terrible process :pleased:

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14 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, I watched McD a number of times in reserve matches last season so not sure of your point. He isn’t a winger in any case, more of a number 10 or false 9 or whatever they call the guy that plays off the main striker these days. 
Don’t think you can put the blame on management, it’s up to the player to make his way and his name. Neither of those two have done themselves any good with their attitudes, lack of attention to what it takes to make the breakthrough etc. 

You certainly didnt watch McDonald play reserve team football last season or the season b4. Last season he went to Dunfermline in August, recalled in Jan and played 1 reserve game, rest of the time he was with the 1st team...that is fact, trust me. Harry played a lot of reserve games. 

 

Now this attitude nonsense you speak of...do you really thinkif there was attitude problems that Robbo\Stevie Crawford would have taken them on loan, that they would have been training every day with the 1st team....

 

got to ask...where do you get this from becasue I have argued this with many people on here but not a single person can give a single example...all he said, they said. I know the family, well both families and they are 2 of the nicest kids you will ever meet. McDonald raised 5k for a families who lost kids in a car crash....shit attitude.

 

I agree McDonald not a winger but to say its down to the players to make their way...well...when you have come into the team, playing well, fans like you, you would expect then to be developed over the next season, games off the bench, cup games a continual process....no...Levein brought in 17 players...then another 11...then even more next window.

 

This is the start of last season....https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/why-18-year-old-was-worth-price-admission-central-park-544095

 

Antohny never played again....attitude...up to the players to take their chance.....also down to the management to play them. Leveins comments after this game were he needs to work on the defensive side of his game...

 

Both of these boys and others have been failed dramtically by Hearts and it looks like history repeating itself with Andy Irving....wouldnt be surprised to see him and Cochrane walk in the Summer...

 

 

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2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Connor Smith was given a start at Easter Rd and was excellent. And then he disappeared off the radar and has now been farmed out.

 

What's the point?

 

And here is a quote from Levein after we played a few kids away at Killie a few months before in May 2018:

 

“It’ll do them the world of good, but I thought Chris Hamilton was particularly good, given the size difference between him and Kris Boyd, who’s a handful for any centre-half at times. Chrissy has an old head on his shoulders.

“He understands the art of defending, he just knows where to be. It’s almost like a striker’s instinct in that he knows where the ball’s going to be. He even stood up to Boydy at times which is brave, given he was standing in front of a train.

“Connor Smith also came on in midfield and showed why we have really high hopes for him"

 

So what happened, Craig?

He bought in over 35 players and didnt build on what he had seen...thats where the real issues lie...too many journeymen players and zero development of the youngsters

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8 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

You certainly didnt watch McDonald play reserve team football last season or the season b4. Last season he went to Dunfermline in August, recalled in Jan and played 1 reserve game, rest of the time he was with the 1st team...that is fact, trust me. Harry played a lot of reserve games. 

 

Now this attitude nonsense you speak of...do you really thinkif there was attitude problems that Robbo\Stevie Crawford would have taken them on loan, that they would have been training every day with the 1st team....

 

got to ask...where do you get this from becasue I have argued this with many people on here but not a single person can give a single example...all he said, they said. I know the family, well both families and they are 2 of the nicest kids you will ever meet. McDonald raised 5k for a families who lost kids in a car crash....shit attitude.

 

I agree McDonald not a winger but to say its down to the players to make their way...well...when you have come into the team, playing well, fans like you, you would expect then to be developed over the next season, games off the bench, cup games a continual process....no...Levein brought in 17 players...then another 11...then even more next window.

 

This is the start of last season....https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/why-18-year-old-was-worth-price-admission-central-park-544095

 

Antohny never played again....attitude...up to the players to take their chance.....also down to the management to play them. Leveins comments after this game were he needs to work on the defensive side of his game...

 

Both of these boys and others have been failed dramtically by Hearts and it looks like history repeating itself with Andy Irving....wouldnt be surprised to see him and Cochrane walk in the Summer...

 

 

 

Damning, and the part in bold is exactly where we seem to lose our young players.

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On 21/11/2020 at 22:59, Cruickshank for Scotland said:


We obviously do a great job of developing players who are not good enough for Hearts! 

 

I think it's down to two things generally, firstly they get to a certain level, a few appearances in the first team then bump...out of sight out of mind for a while. Said for years now that they get in the first team and their development appears to stop, possibly down to poor coaching (we're no strangers to that, youth or first team). Secondly, i think our managers are under pressure by the club and the fans to get players in, get them noticed (Hickey) and sell them on. Instead of going that way more often they've brought in journeymen who were/are never good enough to pull on a maroon jersey. I would see the point in not playing these young players IF we were bringing in top quality players to compete at the top of the Premier, but we're not so a lot of signings have been headscratchers, Frear being one of the latest ones. I mean, why bring in Frear when Moore was starting to show some promise under Stendel? Going back a bit, why bring in Ross Callaghan instead of developing Cochrane more? Why bring in Cole Stockton instead of developing Keena? And there's other examples. I think it's fear of them failing. Or is it?

The majority of young players have proved to be not the standard you'd expect at Hearts so you have to question the quality of the youth team coaches. Are they just hoping that a player can improve on his own back? Are they passing the buck? What are they being paid for?These are questions the managers, coaches and hopefully in future, the Director of Football or whatever title the club give him need to be asking.

If i was at a club where we couldn't afford to produce many players of our own, i'd just wait and see who's failing at Hearts and then take them on. Why pay for it if Hearts do it all for us? 

Edited by jambonian
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59 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

 

 

This is the start of last season....https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/why-18-year-old-was-worth-price-admission-central-park-544095

 

Antohny never played again....attitude...up to the players to take their chance.....also down to the management to play them. Leveins comments after this game were he needs to work on the defensive side of his game...

 

 

 


Wonder if Jock Stein ever said that about Jimmy Johnstone? 

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5 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:


Wonder if Jock Stein ever said that about Jimmy Johnstone? 

 

If i was a Director of Football, or even a club owner, i would be raising serious questions if i ever heard we wanted to release someone because they were "too small" or that they "need to work on their defensive side".

 

And remember, McDonald was 18 when he said that. I wonder what they said about Ronaldo's defensive game at that age (and i am not comparing the two, talent-wise, more the priorities of the coaches).

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5 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Well, if Connor Smith  can’t get a start for Arbroath why would our management team think about starting him for us
Cochrane had several injuries one after the other after his breakthrough season. Hasn’t been the same player since. 

I agree about that.    However he's on the bench at Arbroath.  Dick Campbell is a wily old bugger who'll be able to inspire most young players and teach them how to handle the physical side of the game.  I'd expect him to start games soon, and by the time he comes back he'll have had worthwhile game-time.    Robbie will have to decide whether to send him out on loan again next year, or integrate him into our 1st team squad.

 

It's a real shame that Harry hasn't been able to kick on, for whatever reason.  It would be galling if another club takes him permanently and manage to turn him into the star player we thought he would be.  

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allanwilson1970
1 hour ago, Naisysback said:

You certainly didnt watch McDonald play reserve team football last season or the season b4. Last season he went to Dunfermline in August, recalled in Jan and played 1 reserve game, rest of the time he was with the 1st team...that is fact, trust me. Harry played a lot of reserve games. 

 

Now this attitude nonsense you speak of...do you really thinkif there was attitude problems that Robbo\Stevie Crawford would have taken them on loan, that they would have been training every day with the 1st team....

 

got to ask...where do you get this from becasue I have argued this with many people on here but not a single person can give a single example...all he said, they said. I know the family, well both families and they are 2 of the nicest kids you will ever meet. McDonald raised 5k for a families who lost kids in a car crash....shit attitude.

 

I agree McDonald not a winger but to say its down to the players to make their way...well...when you have come into the team, playing well, fans like you, you would expect then to be developed over the next season, games off the bench, cup games a continual process....no...Levein brought in 17 players...then another 11...then even more next window.

 

This is the start of last season....https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/latest-hearts-news/why-18-year-old-was-worth-price-admission-central-park-544095

 

Antohny never played again....attitude...up to the players to take their chance.....also down to the management to play them. Leveins comments after this game were he needs to work on the defensive side of his game...

 

Both of these boys and others have been failed dramtically by Hearts and it looks like history repeating itself with Andy Irving....wouldnt be surprised to see him and Cochrane walk in the Summer...

 

 

I went to alot of U17/18/20 games and parents were always happy to slate McDonald for his attitude, almost as if they wanted him to fall. Not so much with Cochrane. In the Cowdenbeath game in the link McDonald was out of this world, worked balls off and also got involved in everything. I was amazed he got put to loan last season, then brought back and never played. That was weird for me and it was the same story for Cochrane last season. 

 

I saw with my own eyes we have much better players at U16/17/18 and below than Motherwell or Hamilton but the difference is they played the boys and kept them in the first team, look at Cosgrove Aberdeen scored 1 goal in 20 games yet they stuck with him, we would never be allowed to do that. 

 

We have lost McDonald, will lose Cochrane, Irving, then Henderson, Hamilton, Smith, Logan, Watson, McGill will be next in line to be wasted. Something needs to change before we stop attracting some of the best young players.

 

I have not seen much since Corona close down but the younger teams I do not see many players that are close to the level of the 2000,2001,2002 players we signed.

 

I am sure if some of boys above are played they will do very well and better than some of the rubbish we signed, Frear, Roberts and so on.

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On 21/11/2020 at 18:21, Bigteam said:

The u18s are unbeaten this season . Beating Hibs twice , Utd twice and Rangers to name a few . 
Loads of good players but they will never be given a chance as it’s all must win and the management would rather sign experience than risk youth .  

Is there anywhere the under 18 results and fixtures are published? I've scoured the internet and drawn a blank!!

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4 hours ago, buzzbomb said:

Sending Smith to Arbroath seems a crazy decision. Campbell is notorious for not playing young players. Plus, Hearts are not or should not be playing football the way Arbroath are. I wouldn’t expect Smith to fit in at Arbroath but he should be much more suited to Hearts.

Depends who knows more about Arbroath's suitability for Connor getting the right kind of experience - you or Robbie.

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7 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

Depends who knows more about Arbroath's suitability for Connor getting the right kind of experience - you or Robbie.

Well given Connor not playing..

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25 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

If i was a Director of Football, or even a club owner, i would be raising serious questions if i ever heard we wanted to release someone because they were "too small" or that they "need to work on their defensive side".

 

And remember, McDonald was 18 when he said that. I wonder what they said about Ronaldo's defensive game at that age (and i am not comparing the two, talent-wise, more the priorities of the coaches).

Absolutely.   👍  Especially the "defensive side of their game" nonsense, which seems to be an attitude displayed by "safety first" coaches (who imo are a major part of the problem we're discussing here).

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33 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

...yet. Give him time.

Just ask the hibs youths, Dundee Utd youths that have gone there and barely kicked a ball. And a wee technical player like Connor ?

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1 hour ago, Killinman said:

Is there anywhere the under 18 results and fixtures are published? I've scoured the internet and drawn a blank!!

dont think so  -  they  used to get reported on Twitter etc but nothing. The opposition sometimes report on them    

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1 hour ago, Lone Striker said:

Absolutely.   👍  Especially the "defensive side of their game" nonsense, which seems to be an attitude displayed by "safety first" coaches (who imo are a major part of the problem we're discussing here).


I would go as far as to suggest that focussing on possession stats and safety-first is the ethos that has led directly to the Championship. 

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