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Martin_T

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Smith's right boot
2 minutes ago, allanwilson1970 said:

have answered next to your points - in CAPITALS but dont take offence. We need to give them a chance or the academy will never produce players

 

Fair enough

 

Academy players that prove themselves in training and development games will get a chance, many have. Most mentioned have played numerous times. 

 

If we put the players into the squad you say, nothing suggests we'd improve on 8 wins from 9, nothing at all. Many of these players couldn't hold down a 1st team place at other clubs when on loan. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

Fair enough

 

Academy players that prove themselves in training and development games will get a chance, many have. Most mentioned have played numerous times. 

 

If we put the players into the squad you say, nothing suggests we'd improve on 8 wins from 9, nothing at all. Many of these players couldn't hold down a 1st team place at other clubs when on loan. 

 

Time to close it down. Old system of looking at boys clubs football would provide the same result at lesser expense. 

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14 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Irving is good enough for our squad, he in no way merits a automatic starting slot on last season or this season's performances, very few players do. 

 

Cochrane has shown nothing in 2 years out on loan. 

 

Frear may need replaced if not good enough, but no way should we play poor youth players just because they are young. 

 

Hickey was good and consistant so he played. 

 

Moore was very poor in a number of games last season, lots of running, little quality. 

 

Not 1 player merits a automatic starting place atm. 

 

If youth players are good enough they'll play, not the other way about- play them until the might come good. 

 

As fans we are thick as dug shit sometimes. Our mgt team will see these youngsters in bounce games, development games and in training - if they can't rise to the challenge there then they won't get into the first team- why would they?if they do well in there, they'll get a chance.  If they take that chance they'll play more. It's not rocket science 

 

Just a week ago folk were saying none of the 6/7 players that came in stood out v East Fife, yet now some of these youngsters that are magically the answer. 

 

Is Morrison not in league 1 atm? 

When has he become a world beater? 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm saying that Frear has been total mince since he joined, do you think he's a significant upgrade on Morrison, or even Moore? To be clear, I don't really think any are good enough, but I'd rather we gave youth a chance. Frear doesn't play like a 29 year old with a high level of experience. He's slight and seems to be every bit the confidence player that Wighton is. In a young player its manageable but you expect more from a senior player IMO. 

 

Cochrane has been in and out of the team constantly. I agree that his loan spells have been underwhelming, but its not always about seeing them turn into world-beaters playing for dross in the lower leagues. Harry Kane looked a bog standard player at most of his loan spells. I'm not for a second trying to compare the two, just to highlight that a loan spell can be just as much about showing the young player the uglier side of football and getting them into an environment where there is pressure, its not just about seeing them turn into the next messi. I don't think loan spells are always a good way of predicting how well a player will do for you. Loads of factors can make or break a loan spell - style of play, the players they have around them, injuries etc. Its not wrong to point out that his loan spells haven't been much to write home about, but I also wouldn't put too much stock in them as a barometer of his progress as a player. He'll have learned loads in that time playing with players that are demanding more from him because they need the win bonus for their families (for example). 

 

I just feel like we've been guilty of shepperding young players out of the first team in place of seasoned pro's who've let us down. Connor Smith was given his debut by Neilson before he left! The few times we've seen the laddie he's looked great yet Levein seemed to talk a great game on youth development yet made little effort to actually play young players (yes there are examples, but there wasn't much consistency to it, Hickey and who else? Cochrane for 3 games? Its been poor). To date Smith has hardly played 4 appearances...

 

I'm just worried that we're canning young players in place of dross like Frear and Roberts. Young players are inconsistent, it comes with the territory but continually cycling them out of the team ruins any momentum IMO.  

 

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Smith's right boot
3 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Time to close it down. Old system of looking at boys clubs football would provide the same result at lesser expense. 

 

It will likely be reviewed and is worth a discussion. 

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Smith's right boot
Just now, OTT said:

 

I'm saying that Frear has been total mince since he joined, do you think he's a significant upgrade on Morrison, or even Moore? To be clear, I don't really think any are good enough, but I'd rather we gave youth a chance. Frear doesn't play like a 29 year old with a high level of experience. He's slight and seems to be every bit the confidence player that Wighton is. In a young player its manageable but you expect more from a senior player IMO. 

 

Cochrane has been in and out of the team constantly. I agree that his loan spells have been underwhelming, but its not always about seeing them turn into world-beaters playing for dross in the lower leagues. Harry Kane looked a bog standard player at most of his loan spells. I'm not for a second trying to compare the two, just to highlight that a loan spell can be just as much about showing the young player the uglier side of football and getting them into an environment where there is pressure, its not just about seeing them turn into the next messi. I don't think loan spells are always a good way of predicting how well a player will do for you. Loads of factors can make or break a loan spell - style of play, the players they have around them, injuries etc. Its not wrong to point out that his loan spells haven't been much to write home about, but I also wouldn't put too much stock in them as a barometer of his progress as a player. He'll have learned loads in that time playing with players that are demanding more from him because they need the win bonus for their families (for example). 

 

I just feel like we've been guilty of shepperding young players out of the first team in place of seasoned pro's who've let us down. Connor Smith was given his debut by Neilson before he left! The few times we've seen the laddie he's looked great yet Levein seemed to talk a great game on youth development yet made little effort to actually play young players (yes there are examples, but there wasn't much consistency to it, Hickey and who else? Cochrane for 3 games? Its been poor). To date Smith has hardly played 4 appearances...

 

I'm just worried that we're canning young players in place of dross like Frear and Roberts. Young players are inconsistent, it comes with the territory but continually cycling them out of the team ruins any momentum IMO.  

 

 

 

Specifically in regards to the wide positions, Frear isn't looking like the answer, but imo Morrison isn't either. 

 

 

Macdonald, Moore, worth a game and like mcgil I think we'll see them get a chance. 

 

But player ing a  player  just because they are young is bonkers. 

 

Smith never looked "great", C'mon he was full of energy but "great"? 

 

We've been beat once in 9 games, I don't get the clamour to change every single thing. 

 

We need more width, we can't play Wighton, Boyce and Naismith that is for sure. 

Robbie needs to sort it with what tools he has. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

The boy (McIver is it?) looked pretty decent. An attacking threat and gets stuck in. Maybe one to keep an eye on in future.

Actually it was Turner I was on about didn't realise he was 23 still looks like a bairn.

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For a club who's put so much investment and focus on youth development, we've sadly had very little in the way of good youngsters getting game time. Irving is hands down the best we've developed in the last few seasons. There's a real lack of youngsters even in the matchday squad these days. Wee McGill has had some game time but that's it.

 

Euan Henderson is a prime example. Made his debut back in 2016-17, but has only made another 23 league appearances since then. In that time he's had 1 loan spell, but a lot of time seemingly doing very little. Now it could just be the case that he's failed to really make the grade, and naturally will fade away in to a career in the lower leagues or whatever. It happens. But this is an all to familiar story as far as I'm concerned.

 

Seems to me, as though the standard of coaching right up until the first team is very good at what it does. Hearts youth teams consistently do well for a club of our size. Hardly making real waves, but doing well. Once they are in and around the first team though, these players just seem to stagnate. A culture clash exists in the first team I think. We're hoping that the next big star is going to turn up, but not really putting in the time to allow youngsters to nurture in to a star.

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7 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Specifically in regards to the wide positions, Frear isn't looking like the answer, but imo Morrison isn't either. 

 

 

Macdonald, Moore, worth a game and like mcgil I think we'll see them get a chance. 

 

But player ing a  player  just because they are young is bonkers. 

 

Smith never looked "great", C'mon he was full of energy but "great"? 

 

We've been beat once in 9 games, I don't get the clamour to change every single thing. 

 

We need more width, we can't play Wighton, Boyce and Naismith that is for sure. 

Robbie needs to sort it with what tools he has. 

 

 

 

Macdonald will definitely get a chance - at Cordoba. 

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15 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Actually it was Turner I was on about didn't realise he was 23 still looks like a bairn.

 

Ah, ok. To be fair a few of their players impressed me more than i thought they would. If our scouting has improved (time will tell) then Dunfermline and the likes of Raith Rovers are clubs worth keeping an eye on. 

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Smith's right boot
11 minutes ago, iainmac said:

 

Macdonald will definitely get a chance - at Cordoba. 

 

He was the one I thought was decent as well.

 

But tbh, although, technical, neat and tidy he wasn't very effective.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Locky said:

For a club who's put so much investment and focus on youth development, we've sadly had very little in the way of good youngsters getting game time. Irving is hands down the best we've developed in the last few seasons. There's a real lack of youngsters even in the matchday squad these days. Wee McGill has had some game time but that's it.

 

Euan Henderson is a prime example. Made his debut back in 2016-17, but has only made another 23 league appearances since then. In that time he's had 1 loan spell, but a lot of time seemingly doing very little. Now it could just be the case that he's failed to really make the grade, and naturally will fade away in to a career in the lower leagues or whatever. It happens. But this is an all to familiar story as far as I'm concerned.

 

Seems to me, as though the standard of coaching right up until the first team is very good at what it does. Hearts youth teams consistently do well for a club of our size. Hardly making real waves, but doing well. Once they are in and around the first team though, these players just seem to stagnate. A culture clash exists in the first team I think. We're hoping that the next big star is going to turn up, but not really putting in the time to allow youngsters to nurture in to a star.

 

Pretty much where i'm at. To compare like for like for a minute...i don't think Frear is an upgrade on Moore. Difference is that Frear is a lot older and Moore should be jumping at the bit to get ahead of him in the stakes. Question is...is Moore up for it? Have they brought Frear in because they don't think Moore can step up> That's what the coaches need to decide. 

On a side note...i didn't think Morrison would cut it at Hearts. Pace yes, crossing, extremely poor. Too much turning back on himself and passing the buck to midfield players. I'd say that even Billy King was the better of the two and i've no idea where he is these days!

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Smith's right boot
14 minutes ago, Locky said:

For a club who's put so much investment and focus on youth development, we've sadly had very little in the way of good youngsters getting game time. Irving is hands down the best we've developed in the last few seasons. There's a real lack of youngsters even in the matchday squad these days. Wee McGill has had some game time but that's it.

 

Euan Henderson is a prime example. Made his debut back in 2016-17, but has only made another 23 league appearances since then. In that time he's had 1 loan spell, but a lot of time seemingly doing very little. Now it could just be the case that he's failed to really make the grade, and naturally will fade away in to a career in the lower leagues or whatever. It happens. But this is an all to familiar story as far as I'm concerned.

 

Seems to me, as though the standard of coaching right up until the first team is very good at what it does. Hearts youth teams consistently do well for a club of our size. Hardly making real waves, but doing well. Once they are in and around the first team though, these players just seem to stagnate. A culture clash exists in the first team I think. We're hoping that the next big star is going to turn up, but not really putting in the time to allow youngsters to nurture in to a star.

 

 

This bit just isn't true.

To nurture a star, it just doesn't mean dumping them in the first team and hoping he excels, they will play bounce games with senior players, train with senior players, play development games, maybe go on loan- all that is nurturing a young player.

 

Even Henderson, by you example he's been "nurtured" for 3 years, Harry the same, the end result may be  that he isn't good enough for professional football despite him trying and us nurturing him. That story happens across the country to teenagers, lots of youth players at boys club level end up in juniors or seniors or the lower leagues, most do.

 

We have actually given lots of youngsters a chance, they haven't been good enough to stay in the first team Only Irving and Hickey have shown any decent quality consistently.

Behind them maybe Brandon, Morrison, Moore  but I don't think they were good enough to be regular players for us

 

We handed out a  new deals so the coaches must think there is a chance for a few more to break through and some are still in their teens so time will tell.

 

To say we are not putting in the time to nurture players is absurd tho.

 

We need to get the best youngsters we can ( with the English teams and OF teams about is that worth it or any benefit to us or do we focus on maybe getting the ones that don't quite make it at their clubs when they are 19/20, and beyond that actually question if a Academy is required at youth level at all for us?

 

I can't believe tho that after 1 defeat in 9 literally everything about the club comes into question, again.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

Pretty much where i'm at. To compare like for like for a minute...i don't think Frear is an upgrade on Moore. Difference is that Frear is a lot older and Moore should be jumping at the bit to get ahead of him in the stakes. Question is...is Moore up for it? Have they brought Frear in because they don't think Moore can step up> That's what the coaches need to decide. 

On a side note...i didn't think Morrison would cut it at Hearts. Pace yes, crossing, extremely poor. Too much turning back on himself and passing the buck to midfield players. I'd say that even Billy King was the better of the two and i've no idea where he is these days!

Moore is another one. 6 seasons since he made his debut, now 22, and had a few loan spells. What's he doing here? What is his purpose? If he's not good enough, get him out on loan or permanently. If he's still got the potential to make it, then give the laddie a chance. Frear certainly isn't the answer. He was a signing I was very underwhelmed with, but just assumed he'd be back up and only called upon when needed. Now with Ginnelly out, and Roberts struggling at times too, he's maybe been needed more than we'd hope. But still, why not give a young lad a chance? Because Frear offers **** all.

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willie wallace
56 minutes ago, jr ewing said:

Time to close it down. Old system of looking at boys clubs football would provide the same result at lesser expense. 

I have thought this for a long time.Not much evidence to convince me the academy system is any better.

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4 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

This bit just isn't true.

To nurture a star, it just doesn't mean dumping them in the first team and hoping he excels, they will play bounce games with senior players, train with senior players, play development games, maybe go on loan- all that is nurturing a young player.

 

Even Henderson, by you example he's been "nurtured" for 3 years, Harry the same, the end result may be  that he isn't good enough for professional football despite him trying and us nurturing him. That story happens across the country to teenagers, lots of youth players at boys club level end up in juniors or seniors or the lower leagues, most do.

 

We have actually given lots of youngsters a chance, they haven't been good enough to stay in the first team Only Irving and Hickey have shown any decent quality consistently.

Behind them maybe Brandon, Morrison, Moore  but I don't think they were good enough to be regular players for us

 

We handed out a  new deals so the coaches must think there is a chance for a few more to break through and some are still in their teens so time will tell.

 

To say we are not putting in the time to nurture players is absurd tho.

 

We need to get the best youngsters we can ( with the English teams and OF teams about is that worth it or any benefit to us or do we focus on maybe getting the ones that don't quite make it at their clubs when they are 19/20, and beyond that actually question if a Academy is required at youth level at all for us?

 

I can't believe tho that after 1 defeat in 9 literally everything about the club comes into question, again.

 

 

You make very valid points, but the fact remains that a player will never learn as much as he will when on the park playing first team football. I agree, it's not necessarily wise to throw a youngster in and just leave him in there game after game, as that could be just as detrimental for their development. But throwing a youngster in for a game, then dropping him for 10 games, is a system we've used with some youngsters and it's hardly worked has it?

 

Look at Harry Cochrane. Burst through in 17/18 and made 22 appearances. Since then, he's played 20 first league matches. We threw him in and he done fine. Now we're giving him less game time. We sent him out to Dunfermline in the Championship which was fine, and now we're in the Championship, we send him out on loan to League One. 

 

Point is, there just doesn't seem to be any consistency, or a clear strategy. To truly reap the benefits of young players, you need to be prepared to sacrifice short term success for long term gain. We unintentionally sacrificed short term success playing absolute dross, while leaving out young talented players.

 

Even now, we are clearly still lacking a wee bit up top. I've felt for ages, that we need another striker. It's too late to sign someone really. Hardly bowled over with young strikers, but a quick look at players out on loan shows Leeroy Makovora. Given his first team debut in 2017-18 aged 16 and hasn't been since. Now on loan at a Brechin City side getting pumped in League Two every week and only 18. I'm not advocating that he should be starting, but on the bench and getting some minutes in and who knows? He could be one of these young players who grasps his opportunity with both hands. Many moons ago, but a certain John Robertson was put in the first team at 17,  took his chances and, well the rest is history.

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The u18s are unbeaten this season . Beating Hibs twice , Utd twice and Rangers to name a few . 
Loads of good players but they will never be given a chance as it’s all must win and the management would rather sign experience than risk youth .  

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Mr Brightside
10 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

From the last decade

 

Brad McKay - ICT

Craig Thomson - Edinburgh City

Conrad Balatoni - Edinburgh City

Robbie Buchanan - Cowdenbeath

Fraser Mullen - Cowdenbeath

Ross Matthews - Raith Rovers

Salim Kouider-Aïssa - Livingston

Jack Hamilton - Dundee

Colin Hamilton - Arbroath

Dale Carrick - Airdrie

Ally Roy - Airdrie

Gary Oliver - Morton

Ryan Wallace - East Fife

Callumn Morrison - Falkirk

Cammy Graham - Stenhousemuir

 

There are several more in the Lowland and EOS leagues and I suspect a few that I have missed.

 

Others like Rory Currie and Russell Maclean didn't spend much time in the "academy"

 

Not all lower league but also

Jason Holt
Liam Gordon

Scott Robinson

Jamie MacDonald

Harry Paton

David Templeton

Josh Doig

Jamie Gullan

 

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For what it’s worth, I think the Academy is working.  We’re developing talent and performing well at most age levels.  The weak link in all of this is the phasing into the first team set up.  We’re the only club I know that gives players their debuts at 16 then drops them or punts them out on loan for 3-4 years.  I don’t see teams like Motherwell, Aberdeen etc worrying about ‘burn-out’, that seems to be something we’ve conjured up as a theory.  
 

Some of these lads have all the technical attributes to flourish at the top, but we ruin them by thinking that a season playing for Montrose getting the shit kicked out of them by plumbers from Elgin will complete them as a player and ‘toughen them up’.  

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Cruickshank for Scotland
10 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

From the last decade

 

Brad McKay - ICT

Craig Thomson - Edinburgh City

Conrad Balatoni - Edinburgh City

Robbie Buchanan - Cowdenbeath

Fraser Mullen - Cowdenbeath

Ross Matthews - Raith Rovers

Salim Kouider-Aïssa - Livingston

Jack Hamilton - Dundee

Colin Hamilton - Arbroath

Dale Carrick - Airdrie

Ally Roy - Airdrie

Gary Oliver - Morton

Ryan Wallace - East Fife

Callumn Morrison - Falkirk

Cammy Graham - Stenhousemuir

 

There are several more in the Lowland and EOS leagues and I suspect a few that I have missed.

 

Others like Rory Currie and Russell Maclean didn't spend much time in the "academy"

 


We obviously do a great job of developing players who are not good enough for Hearts! 

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SectionFJambo

It's always been the next batch. A couple of years ago we were told this lot now would make us massive money and be stand outs. The reality is Hickey aside they seem to be going the same way as before.

 

However this is a football wide issue. Too much focus on shape, box soccer type stuff and not enough on developing first team footballers.

 

In Scotland rightly or wrongly players cannot be soft and they cannot simply be tidy on the ball - they need to be able to hold their home and play at a good pace. Neither of which your box soccer type stuff produce.

 

Even now arguably our best prospect in Stone is being mismanaged - out in lowland league getting 3 goals a week put past him. Great development.

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SectionFJambo
27 minutes ago, Hairdryer said:

Also guilty of letting the better 

Young players leave Jason Cummings springs to mind

and josh doig and Gullan

who hibs snapped up

 

Of the 3 not one has established themselves so far or proven to be a decent SPL player.

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Mr Brightside
28 minutes ago, Hairdryer said:

Also guilty of letting the better 

Young players leave Jason Cummings springs to mind

and josh doig and Gullan

who hibs snapped up

Not sure if any of they 3 players are good enough for where we want to be, top 4 Premiership team.

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Dusk_Till_Dawn
7 minutes ago, BelgeJambo said:

Name escapes me, the boy that went to Brighton.  How is he doing nowadays?


Leonard? Seems to be doing well down there - just always the question of whether it’ll translate into a top level first team career 

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35 minutes ago, SectionFJambo said:

It's always been the next batch. A couple of years ago we were told this lot now would make us massive money and be stand outs. The reality is Hickey aside they seem to be going the same way as before.

 

However this is a football wide issue. Too much focus on shape, box soccer type stuff and not enough on developing first team footballers.

 

In Scotland rightly or wrongly players cannot be soft and they cannot simply be tidy on the ball - they need to be able to hold their home and play at a good pace. Neither of which your box soccer type stuff produce.

 

Even now arguably our best prospect in Stone is being mismanaged - out in lowland league getting 3 goals a week put past him. Great development.

Difficult to see how without your supporting evidence.

Stone was injured and we decided to bring in Stewart on loan until January.  Stone has now recovered and back in the fold.  Should we just bin Stewart or allow Stone to go somewhere to get some game time?  Could we have envisaged that he would be getting 3 goals a week past him?

How do you think his progress should have been managed?

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SectionFJambo

He's been sent to a team who have conceded 10 goals in the last 5 games at a level 4 beneath where he will be expected to play for us.  What exactly is he learning other than to pick the ball out of the back of the net against players of a far lower standard.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:


Leonard? Seems to be doing well down there - just always the question of whether it’ll translate into a top level first team career 

Marc Leonard?

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19 minutes ago, SectionFJambo said:

He's been sent to a team who have conceded 10 goals in the last 5 games at a level 4 beneath where he will be expected to play for us.  What exactly is he learning other than to pick the ball out of the back of the net against players of a far lower standard.

 

 

I asked what you thought should have happened, bearing in mind he was out injured earlier in the season.

Now it's down to (an average of) 2 goals a game, rather than your previous 3 per game.  Do you know if there was a higher league team willing to accept an inexperienced, young, recently injured keeper and provide some assurance of game time?

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SectionFJambo

Brought down to 2 a game on average thanks to a 6-0 win against one of the worst teams in the league.  Plenty of practice getting the ball from the net though.

 

If there was no one else willing to take him you have to question why. I'd imagine what actually happened is other clubs weren't willing to play Budge's FM reality and pay his wages or guarantee him a game until he prove himself.

 

He's 18 now and doesn't seem particularly near the first team. When we are bringing in 3rd choices from Livingston in his place something isn't right.

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2 minutes ago, SectionFJambo said:

Brought down to 2 a game on average thanks to a 6-0 win against one of the worst teams in the league.  Plenty of practice getting the ball from the net though.

 

If there was no one else willing to take him you have to question why. I'd imagine what actually happened is other clubs weren't willing to play Budge's FM reality and pay his wages or guarantee him a game until he prove himself.

 

He's 18 now and doesn't seem particularly near the first team. When we are bringing in 3rd choices from Livingston in his place something isn't right.


Goalkeeper is a different position and I think the club is right to keep him under wraps for a year or two more. 

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Business model is to hoover up potential talent.... And to deny other clubs ....  Note the word potential... Natural ability cannot be coached... It seems to be driven by socio/ economic factors. 

Maybe need to start a selective breeding program as well.

All of what is wrong with scottish football started when control and development was handed over to professional clubs

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1 hour ago, Cruyff said:

Our Academy has produced about one good player for the first team in 5 or 6 years. If that's not a failure then I don't know what is. 

Correct.  But apparently it was broken 6 years ago.  Levein worked wonders fixing the academy according to some.  

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1 hour ago, noskillson said:

Business model is to hoover up potential talent.... And to deny other clubs ....  Note the word potential... Natural ability cannot be coached... It seems to be driven by socio/ economic factors. 

Maybe need to start a selective breeding program as well.

All of what is wrong with scottish football started when control and development was handed over to professional clubs

Reminds me of Hutchie Vale they used to have squads of about 30 players in each team. Never got a game. 

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1 hour ago, SectionFJambo said:

Brought down to 2 a game on average thanks to a 6-0 win against one of the worst teams in the league.  Plenty of practice getting the ball from the net though.

 

If there was no one else willing to take him you have to question why. I'd imagine what actually happened is other clubs weren't willing to play Budge's FM reality and pay his wages or guarantee him a game until he prove himself.

 

He's 18 now and doesn't seem particularly near the first team. When we are bringing in 3rd choices from Livingston in his place something isn't right.

You have still avoided saying what should have happened.

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Cruickshank for Scotland
2 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

Correct.  But apparently it was broken 6 years ago.  Levein worked wonders fixing the academy according to some.  


That is all the Levein fanboys on here can cling to!

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23 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Specifically in regards to the wide positions, Frear isn't looking like the answer, but imo Morrison isn't either. 

 

 

Macdonald, Moore, worth a game and like mcgil I think we'll see them get a chance. 

 

But player ing a  player  just because they are young is bonkers. 

 

Smith never looked "great", C'mon he was full of energy but "great"? 

 

We've been beat once in 9 games, I don't get the clamour to change every single thing. 

 

We need more width, we can't play Wighton, Boyce and Naismith that is for sure. 

Robbie needs to sort it with what tools he has. 

 

 

We resigning MacDonald like.

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2 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

Correct.  But apparently it was broken 6 years ago.  Levein worked wonders fixing the academy according to some.  

The wheels fell off a long time ago. Levein did a good job in convincing everybody that he had fixed the academy but the lack of new young players is proof he didn’t.

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On 21/11/2020 at 13:06, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

The mgt team who gave Hickey, Brandon, Smith, cochrane Irving, Henderson, Moore, macdonald all a chance in the first team?

 

The transition possibly, but I don't think our first batch of youngsters coming through are all that great, like most one 1 or two will make it. 

 

I don't think any mentioned above will player regularly for a team bigger than Hearts. 


Possibly? Absolutely definitely

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An academy which pays for itself is a successful academy. Needn't even be every year. Selling an academy-reared player for good money every few years must be the aim. Letting a good player slip away on a free is absolutely not what you want.

 

Either way 70% of players who go through academies fail to make it. Of the other 30% probably 80% aren't good enough to make it at Hearts level but are good enough for lower leagues or bottom 6 SPL clubs.

 

I don't see the point in attacking the academy every time the first team loses a game.

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Footballfirst
5 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I don't see the point in attacking the academy every time the first team loses a game.

I don't see it as an attack on the academy per se. It is a sentiment that comes from the manager's decisions to play what look like sub standard journeymen pros, in preference to those players developed in house. 

 

It is that decision that leads to the question of whether or not the academy is delivering benefit to the club. Either the manager's team selection is right and, ergo,  the academy is failing, or the manager is wrong in his choices.

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22 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

An academy which pays for itself is a successful academy. Needn't even be every year. Selling an academy-reared player for good money every few years must be the aim. Letting a good player slip away on a free is absolutely not what you want.

 

Either way 70% of players who go through academies fail to make it. Of the other 30% probably 80% aren't good enough to make it at Hearts level but are good enough for lower leagues or bottom 6 SPL clubs.

 

I don't see the point in attacking the academy every time the first team loses a game.

Costs over 800k a year to run. Decent 2 or 3 players every year for that amount even if only 1 is successful. 

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3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

I don't see it as an attack on the academy per se. It is a sentiment that comes from the manager's decisions to play what look like sub standard journeymen pros, in preference to those players developed in house. 

 

It is that decision that leads to the question of whether or not the academy is delivering benefit to the club. Either the manager's team selection is right and, ergo,  the academy is failing, or the manager is wrong in his choices.

 

I don't believe any player should be gifted starts without earning it in training - doesn't matter if he is 19 or 29. 

 

I'm not convinced Halliday looks in great shape at the moment... But if Robbie's choice is limited to an out of sorts Irving vs an unfit Halliday then it is not an easy selection to make, but you have to go with experience and cross your fingers... 

 

The worrying thing about the Dunfermline game was their hunger and effort compared to ours. Their best players are guys who failed to make it at Motherwell and Kilmarnock. Essentially they are already in the Last Chance Saloon. If our First Team look like they cannot be bothered up against these guys, then I wonder about the attitude of boys who are being shipped out on loan because they cannot supplant lazy first-teamers... This is First Team Squad management though, not Academy management...

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Youngsters need to play. Motherwells youth teams are no better than Hearts and the players within it. The difference is though they have a path to play first team football, are allowed to make their mistakes and continue to play. Our fans would want them hunted after a few mistakes and the manager and the scouts/coaches etc. 

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Smith's right boot
1 hour ago, HMFC 86 said:


Possibly? Absolutely definitely

 

I'm not sure, not many of our youth imo have been good enough to be a regular for Hearts that I've seen, that simple really. 

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