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Martin_T

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Just what exactly is it for? The only player in the starting XI last night who was developed at Hearts was 37 year old Craig Gordon.

 

Much hype from the club during the 5 year plan era of investment into youth development, using homegrown players etc. The official Twitter account used to routinely reference, especially during season 2017/18 how many youth players were in the starting line up.

 

Yet since the Walker, Nicholson, Paterson generation, perhaps only Aaron Hickey has established himself as a regular first team starter.

 

Something is going far wrong if we are having to sign 30 year old, poor quality journeyman like Frear to start matches.

 

If they are not good enough, why were Moore, Henderson and Brandon given new deals and by whom?

 

For the relatively large investment, for very little return, something must be going badly wrong in the youth development at the club.

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8 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Just what exactly is it for? The only player in the starting XI last night who was developed at Hearts was 37 year old Craig Gordon.

 

Much hype from the club during the 5 year plan era of investment into youth development, using homegrown players etc. The official Twitter account used to routinely reference, especially during season 2017/18 how many youth players were in the starting line up.

 

Yet since the Walker, Nicholson, Paterson generation, perhaps only Aaron Hickey has established himself as a regular first team starter.

 

Something is going far wrong if we are having to sign 30 year old, poor quality journeyman like Frear to start matches.

 

If they are not good enough, why were Moore, Henderson and Brandon given new deals and by whom?

 

For the relatively large investment, for very little return, something must be going badly wrong in the youth development at the club.

The problem with youth players is that they are too young.

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3 minutes ago, jonesy said:

The problem with youth players is that they are too young.


Not at twenty they aren’t.

 

Some managers trust young players, others favour experience.  Levein was kamikaze and threw them in at random.  
 

I was trying to make the point last night that it will be increasingly difficult to get good young players to sign new contracts in the future if in this league the ones we have aren’t getting a start when we go out and sign randoms instead.  How do we sell the club to parents of 14/15 year olds either when the only success story since 2014 is Hickey. 

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15 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


Not at twenty they aren’t.

 

Some managers trust young players, others favour experience.  Levein was kamikaze and threw them in at random.  
 

I was trying to make the point last night that it will be increasingly difficult to get good young players to sign new contracts in the future if in this league the ones we have aren’t getting a start when we go out and sign randoms instead.  How do we sell the club to parents of 14/15 year olds either when the only success story since 2014 is Hickey. 

Exactly. My post above was me being a wee bit flippant. 

 

We should have built the team around the young players this year.

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My concern with our Academy is the lads are all too ‘nice’. 
Im not wanting Riordan , O’Conner, Thumb kinda thugs just maybe somebody who will have a bit of fight in him . 

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Leveins Battalion

Our academy or youth yet up is like every club in the world,some times we produce players sometimes we dont.

 

Man Utd arguably have not produced since the class of 92.

 

However sooner or later we will have to throw some in as the standard of guys like Frear is just not good enough.

 

Bizarrely our last group of players came from the burning embers of the Romanov era.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Just what exactly is it for? The only player in the starting XI last night who was developed at Hearts was 37 year old Craig Gordon.

 

Much hype from the club during the 5 year plan era of investment into youth development, using homegrown players etc. The official Twitter account used to routinely reference, especially during season 2017/18 how many youth players were in the starting line up.

 

Yet since the Walker, Nicholson, Paterson generation, perhaps only Aaron Hickey has established himself as a regular first team starter.

 

Something is going far wrong if we are having to sign 30 year old, poor quality journeyman like Frear to start matches.

 

If they are not good enough, why were Moore, Henderson and Brandon given new deals and by whom?

 

For the relatively large investment, for very little return, something must be going badly wrong in the youth development at the club.

You are spot on with your comments,been troubling me for a while,is it the scouting system the coaching system? needs sorted?

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14 minutes ago, jonesy said:

Exactly. My post above was me being a wee bit flippant. 

 

We should have built the team around the young players this year.


Definitely. Or at the very least have two or three that we consistently give a chance to over a period of time to see if they can swim.  Instead it’s wee cameos or to help out if injuries.  Last batch we brought through was through choice. 

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1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

Just what exactly is it for? The only player in the starting XI last night who was developed at Hearts was 37 year old Craig Gordon.

 

Much hype from the club during the 5 year plan era of investment into youth development, using homegrown players etc. The official Twitter account used to routinely reference, especially during season 2017/18 how many youth players were in the starting line up.

 

Yet since the Walker, Nicholson, Paterson generation, perhaps only Aaron Hickey has established himself as a regular first team starter.

 

Something is going far wrong if we are having to sign 30 year old, poor quality journeyman like Frear to start matches.

 

If they are not good enough, why were Moore, Henderson and Brandon given new deals and by whom?

 

For the relatively large investment, for very little return, something must be going badly wrong in the youth development at the club.

 

It's almost as though Cathros "Box Soccer" franchise isn't paying off. 

 

The Academy always has a "jam tomorrow" get out of jail free card but, whatever way you cut it, it just doesn't produce many players capable of playing 150 games for the first team. 

 

Wingers, Strikers, Centre Halfs - where are the home grown ones? 

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How many players who were youngsters at Hearts are plying their trade in the Scottish lower leagues? There must be a fair number - we do produce players, they're just not 'top flight' standard in the main. 

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Roger Arnott has spent over £4m and probably heading towards £5m and Hickey (big Celtic role in development) aside has never yet developed a first choice first team player or sold a player for proper money.

 

His performance has been atrocious and it is another terrible Levein legacy.

 

There was continual froth from Levein about what the 'rebuilt' academy was going to produce.  And just like everything else he touched it has been a disaster.

 

Hopefully JJ is taking a proper look at what goes on.  The Board should definitely be looking at the performance of Arnott in particular.

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21 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

How many players who were youngsters at Hearts are plying their trade in the Scottish lower leagues? There must be a fair number - we do produce players, they're just not 'top flight' standard in the main. 


Because they aren’t being given a long chance in the side to establish themselves.  

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Footballfirst
27 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

How many players who were youngsters at Hearts are plying their trade in the Scottish lower leagues? There must be a fair number - we do produce players, they're just not 'top flight' standard in the main. 

From the last decade

 

Brad McKay - ICT

Craig Thomson - Edinburgh City

Conrad Balatoni - Edinburgh City

Robbie Buchanan - Cowdenbeath

Fraser Mullen - Cowdenbeath

Ross Matthews - Raith Rovers

Salim Kouider-Aïssa - Livingston

Jack Hamilton - Dundee

Colin Hamilton - Arbroath

Dale Carrick - Airdrie

Ally Roy - Airdrie

Gary Oliver - Morton

Ryan Wallace - East Fife

Callumn Morrison - Falkirk

Cammy Graham - Stenhousemuir

 

There are several more in the Lowland and EOS leagues and I suspect a few that I have missed.

 

Others like Rory Currie and Russell Maclean didn't spend much time in the "academy"

 

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3 minutes ago, Last Laff said:


Because they aren’t being given a long chance in the side to establish themselves.  

Fair point - but when they have got in the team in the last few years that team has tended to be poor. It must be easier for a younger player to come into a decent side. When Berra came through he had Pressley and Webster to play alongside.

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Was thinking about this. Its lack of options in positions too that is concerning...

 

We need a striker,winger and centre back... To my knowledge there are none even at a very young age standing out at their age groups or knocking on the door...?

 

We seem to produce some neat and tidy midfield players but it's all a bit samey. Are we just unlucky?

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6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

From the last decade

 

Brad McKay - ICT

Craig Thomson - Edinburgh City

Conrad Balatoni - Edinburgh City

Robbie Buchanan - Cowdenbeath

Fraser Mullen - Cowdenbeath

Ross Matthews - Raith Rovers

Salim Kouider-Aïssa - Livingston

Jack Hamilton - Dundee

Colin Hamilton - Arbroath

Dale Carrick - Airdrie

Ally Roy - Airdrie

Gary Oliver - Morton

Ryan Wallace - East Fife

Callumn Morrison - Falkirk

 

There are several more in the Lowland and EOS leagues and I suspect a few that I have missed.

Cammy Graham - Stenhousemuir

Mchattie - ICT

Rory Currie - brechin

Mason - Edinburgh city

Dean ritchie- Airdrie

 

Also we had a tall skinny striker, forget his name tho?

 

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3 minutes ago, Alan_R said:

Also we had a tall skinny striker, forget his name tho?

 

 

Russell mclean - Montrose

 

Name came back to me

 

Josh grigor - stenhousemuir

 

There's another

 

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3 minutes ago, Alan_R said:

Mchattie - ICT

Rory Currie - brechin

Mason - Edinburgh city

Dean ritchie- Airdrie

 

Also we had a tall skinny striker, forget his name tho?

 

 

Russell McLean? 

 

Not an Academy product. We signed him from Alloa & he's now at Montrose. 

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Just now, iainmac said:

 

Russell McLean? 

 

Not an Academy product. We signed him from Alloa & he's now at Montrose. 

Ah fair enough, but aye that's who I was thinking of 

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26 minutes ago, Coco said:

Roger Arnott has spent over £4m and probably heading towards £5m and Hickey (big Celtic role in development) aside has never yet developed a first choice first team player or sold a player for proper money.

 

His performance has been atrocious and it is another terrible Levein legacy.

 

There was continual froth from Levein about what the 'rebuilt' academy was going to produce.  And just like everything else he touched it has been a disaster.

 

Hopefully JJ is taking a proper look at what goes on.  The Board should definitely be looking at the performance of Arnott in particular.

 

It would certainly interesting to know what Arnott's KPI's are. JJ hopefully has a remit to do a root and branch review of the football 'department'.

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24 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

Fair point - but when they have got in the team in the last few years that team has tended to be poor. It must be easier for a younger player to come into a decent side. When Berra came through he had Pressley and Webster to play alongside.


While true the last batch we gave a chance under was Locke when at our most brutal period and many shone although you could argue maybe Patterson made it above our level. 

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I know from some info ages ago that a lot of the coaches at Hearts thought the last management weren’t interested in young players or didn’t know how to help young players make the transition. 

I know the potential needs to be there firstly, but you look at old managers who knew how to blood young players. AMac, JJ gave young players a chance but knew how to integrate them with confidence and belief that they could become reliable pros.  
 

I think the way it’s went for us though, has made it even harder to promote young players. Managers turn to older players when the shite hits the fan.  So, it’s just been an absolute mess created in the last couple of years in every way.  

 

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2 hours ago, Leveins Battalion said:

Our academy or youth yet up is like every club in the world,some times we produce players sometimes we dont.

 

Man Utd arguably have not produced since the class of 92.

 

However sooner or later we will have to throw some in as the standard of guys like Frear is just not good enough.

 

Bizarrely our last group of players came from the burning embers of the Romanov era.

 

 

Your comment about Man United hit the nail on the head for me. Youth development is actually pretty rare, even for massive clubs. Ajax are always the reference point for repeatedly bringing through squads of players but even that isn't the proverbial conveyor belt, there is often a few generations (in football terms) skipped in between. Perhaps their prominence within their own league has an impact on that, maybe if the OF were to give more focus to youth development then they could be like Ajax. For me, you have to hope that you will produce a top prospect a d be able to cash in, Gordon was the perfect example of that. Otherwise youths provide a cheap array of squad players, some of which will develop beyond that and others won't. But how would we afford and keep happy a squad of 25 experienced pros? Youth fill those roles. 

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Smith's right boot
19 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

I know from some info ages ago that a lot of the coaches at Hearts thought the last management weren’t interested in young players or didn’t know how to help young players make the transition. 

I know the potential needs to be there firstly, but you look at old managers who knew how to blood young players. AMac, JJ gave young players a chance but knew how to integrate them with confidence and belief that they could become reliable pros.  
 

I think the way it’s went for us though, has made it even harder to promote young players. Managers turn to older players when the shite hits the fan.  So, it’s just been an absolute mess created in the last couple of years in every way.  

 

 

 

The mgt team who gave Hickey, Brandon, Smith, cochrane Irving, Henderson, Moore, macdonald all a chance in the first team?

 

The transition possibly, but I don't think our first batch of youngsters coming through are all that great, like most one 1 or two will make it. 

 

I don't think any mentioned above will player regularly for a team bigger than Hearts. 

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3 hours ago, jonesy said:

The problem with youth players is that they are too young.

Dunfermline had a young laddie in midfield last night that played far better than any of our players was full of energy and drive and he wasn't even Dunfermline's best player.

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2 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Moore end of last season looked far better than any of our wide men last night

Calimn Morrison as well.  Whatever his shortcomings, he's better than Frear (unless he's been hiding his talent)

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3 hours ago, Martin_T said:

Just what exactly is it for? The only player in the starting XI last night who was developed at Hearts was 37 year old Craig Gordon.

 

Much hype from the club during the 5 year plan era of investment into youth development, using homegrown players etc. The official Twitter account used to routinely reference, especially during season 2017/18 how many youth players were in the starting line up.

 

Yet since the Walker, Nicholson, Paterson generation, perhaps only Aaron Hickey has established himself as a regular first team starter.

 

Something is going far wrong if we are having to sign 30 year old, poor quality journeyman like Frear to start matches.

 

If they are not good enough, why were Moore, Henderson and Brandon given new deals and by whom?

 

For the relatively large investment, for very little return, something must be going badly wrong in the youth development at the club.

It’s a very good post 

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1 minute ago, JamboAl said:

Calimn Morrison as well.  Whatever his shortcomings, he's better than Frear (unless he's been hiding his talent)

Roberts as well how many times are we going to sign players that look like they are scared of the ball all he does is shy away from it

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3 minutes ago, Lfhearts said:

Liam Gordon at St Johnstone binned from our academy is a better more commanding centre half than those two numpties based on last night.

Halkett escapes so much criticism when the truth is he has been just as shit with whoever he has played with.Boy scores goals though so he seems to get a pass.

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Scottie Wanshot.
5 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Roberts as well how many times are we going to sign players that look like they are scared of the ball all he does is shy away from it

Roberts low grade player, does nothing for Hearts.

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Genuinely believe we should ditch the academy and concentrate on snapping up 17-19 year olds with promise who can join as squad players with a view to breaking through to the first XI. 

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Francis Albert
3 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

Not one of her priotities.

The troubling thing is it has been one of her priorities in the "football department" in terms of resources devoted to it. Like the rest of the football department ... largely wasted resources as measured by performance..

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1 hour ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

The mgt team who gave Hickey, Brandon, Smith, cochrane Irving, Henderson, Moore, macdonald all a chance in the first team?

 

The transition possibly, but I don't think our first batch of youngsters coming through are all that great, like most one 1 or two will make it. 

 

I don't think any mentioned above will player regularly for a team bigger than Hearts. 

Fair point, but like you say, it’s the transition and management from therein.

 

Like I said, the potential needs to be there first and I suppose there are times some young players just get a chance for the sake of it. You may knock it off or you may not.  

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5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The troubling thing is it has been one of her priorities in the "football department" in terms of resources devoted to it. Like the rest of the football department ... largely wasted resources as measured by performance..

 

What angers me most is she said at the start of last season she was now going to focus more on the footballing department. Aye hen, I think last season shows you are not cut out for this.  She will ****ing ruin us.

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1 hour ago, vegas-voss said:

Dunfermline had a young laddie in midfield last night that played far better than any of our players was full of energy and drive and he wasn't even Dunfermline's best player.

 

Who is on loan from Celtic

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2 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

From the last decade

 

Brad McKay - ICT

Craig Thomson - Edinburgh City

Conrad Balatoni - Edinburgh City

Robbie Buchanan - Cowdenbeath

Fraser Mullen - Cowdenbeath

Ross Matthews - Raith Rovers

Salim Kouider-Aïssa - Livingston

Jack Hamilton - Dundee

Colin Hamilton - Arbroath

Dale Carrick - Airdrie

Ally Roy - Airdrie

Gary Oliver - Morton

Ryan Wallace - East Fife

Callumn Morrison - Falkirk

Cammy Graham - Stenhousemuir

 

There are several more in the Lowland and EOS leagues and I suspect a few that I have missed.

 

Others like Rory Currie and Russell Maclean didn't spend much time in the "academy"

 

 

All well and good but just producing players for lower league clubs.  Is Walker the only player to progress from the Academy to first team regular since Gordon and Neilson himself.

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4 hours ago, jonesy said:

The problem with youth players is that they are too young.

 

Sorry to say but bollocks to that!

 

Andy Irving is good enough, Cochrane would have had something to add, and I'm struggling to see how Frear is any better than Moore or even Morrison*. Connor Smith has looked quality the few times he's actually been given game time. Hickey held his own at 17, likewise Walker, Nicholson, King & Paterson all did similar at a young age. 

 

*I know we let Morrison go, but ffs Frear is total dugshite. No bottle. 

 

If we give kids a chance then we'll see them rise to the challenge. Frear for me shouldn't play again, that was an embarrassing performance from a player that has the experience to do much better. Moore could have and would have offered much more. 

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1 hour ago, vegas-voss said:

Roberts as well how many times are we going to sign players that look like they are scared of the ball all he does is shy away from it

Roberts is definitely the worst for doing this. He doesn’t want the ball. Is always hiding behind an opponent when it’s near him. Mind you when he dies eventually touch it it’s little wonder. Honking. I would send him back in January as Moore and Henderson offer more and they are no great shakes either but would rather play them than Roberts or Frear!! 

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Diadora Van Basten

We sign so much dross and then play them in front of Youngstars. Irving is currently being frozen out by Lee and Halliday. Maybe these players are slightly better but Irving has more potential and it will not be realised if he is sitting on the bench. 

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Smith's right boot
9 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Sorry to say but bollocks to that!

 

Andy Irving is good enough, Cochrane would have had something to add, and I'm struggling to see how Frear is any better than Moore or even Morrison*. Connor Smith has looked quality the few times he's actually been given game time. Hickey held his own at 17, likewise Walker, Nicholson, King & Paterson all did similar at a young age. 

 

*I know we let Morrison go, but ffs Frear is total dugshite. No bottle. 

 

If we give kids a chance then we'll see them rise to the challenge. Frear for me shouldn't play again, that was an embarrassing performance from a player that has the experience to do much better. Moore could have and would have offered much more. 

 

 

Irving is good enough for our squad, he in no way merits a automatic starting slot on last season or this season's performances, very few players do. 

 

Cochrane has shown nothing in 2 years out on loan. 

 

Frear may need replaced if not good enough, but no way should we play poor youth players just because they are young. 

 

Hickey was good and consistant so he played. 

 

Moore was very poor in a number of games last season, lots of running, little quality. 

 

Not 1 player merits a automatic starting place atm. 

 

If youth players are good enough they'll play, not the other way about- play them until the might come good. 

 

As fans we are thick as dug shit sometimes. Our mgt team will see these youngsters in bounce games, development games and in training - if they can't rise to the challenge there then they won't get into the first team- why would they?if they do well in there, they'll get a chance.  If they take that chance they'll play more. It's not rocket science 

 

Just a week ago folk were saying none of the 6/7 players that came in stood out v East Fife, yet now some of these youngsters that are magically the answer. 

 

Is Morrison not in league 1 atm? 

When has he become a world beater? 

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

Who is on loan from Celtic

Did they have two from Celtic I heard them mention one but it wasn't the young laddie with the blonde hair I am meaning ?

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allanwilson1970
11 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Irving is good enough for our squad, he in no way merits a automatic starting slot on last season or this season's performances, very few players do.  SHOULD BE PLAYING AND GIVEN A RUN OF GAMES

 

Cochrane has shown nothing in 2 years out on loan.  PUT BILLY GILMOUR ON LOAN IN LEAGUE 1 AND HE WILL LOOK BANG AVERAGE 

 

Frear may need replaced if not good enough, but no way should we play poor youth players just because they are young.  AGREE FREAR HOPELESS,GIVE MORE OR HENDERSON A RUN OF GAMES AND SEE HOW THEY DO

 

Hickey was good and consistant so he played. AGREE AND HE HAS BEEN THE ONLY ONE TO GET A DECENT RUN OF GAMES 

 

Moore was very poor in a number of games last season, lots of running, little quality.  HE DONE THE WORK OF 2 PLAYERS AND LEFT SPACE FOR OTHERS, GREAT TEAM PLAYER

 

Not 1 player merits a automatic starting place atm.  POSSIBLY BUT WE NEVER SEE THEM GETTING GAAMES

 

If youth players are good enough they'll play, not the other way about- play them until the might come good.  DO NOT AGREE, MCDONALD, COCHRANE, CONNOR SMITH, IRVING, HAMILTON SHOULD ALL BE PLAYING HIS SEASON

 

As fans we are thick as dug shit sometimes. Our mgt team will see these youngsters in bounce games, development games and in training - if they can't rise to the challenge there then they won't get into the first team- why would they?if they do well in there, they'll get a chance.  If they take that chance they'll play more. It's not rocket science  THEY NEED GAMES NOT JUST 10 MINUTE CAMEOS

 

Just a week ago folk were saying none of the 6/7 players that came in stood out v East Fife, yet now some of these youngsters that are magically the answer. 

 

Is Morrison not in league 1 atm? HE HAS BEEN OUTSTANDING AND WILL BE IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE NEXT SEASON

When has he become a world beater? 

 

 

 

 

have answered next to your points - in CAPITALS but dont take offence. We need to give them a chance or the academy will never produce players

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2 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

How many players who were youngsters at Hearts are plying their trade in the Scottish lower leagues? There must be a fair number - we do produce players, they're just not 'top flight' standard in the main. 

 

I've been saying that for years. We develop players to a certain level then it all falls away. Players like Billy King, Jordan McGhee, Kevin McHattie, Liam Smith, Brad Mackay etc were (after watching them) never going to be good enough for regular first team squads. i watched Hamilton in goal for Dundee and thought we were right to get shot of him, no better than Doyle or Zlamal. I said that these players will have careers in the game no doubt, but not at top level many times. Last season i also said that Morrison was going to go down the same path as them and as it stands, Cochrane and McDonald were next in the list. Moore for example started showing potential under Stendel and has now disappeared. Neilson obviously thinks Frear is the answer instead of working with Moore. A journeyman over a youth!? Henderson i don't know what to make of as yet. The only player we've made any cash on is Paterson. Hickey was at Celtic and drafted into our youth squad so not quite the same as the others. Walker is now back here as no-one else seemed to think he was going to cut it at their level, and then there's Nicholson who got lucky and headed off to America playing for shite like Bristol Rovers or whoever it is., Walker and Nicholson had the potential to be in International squads with the correct development but it hasn't turned out that way, and likely won't for them now.

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12 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Did they have two from Celtic I heard them mention one but it wasn't the young laddie with the blonde hair I am meaning ?

 

The boy (McIver is it?) looked pretty decent. An attacking threat and gets stuck in. Maybe one to keep an eye on in future.

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