Is it time to let some Scottish clubs die?

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The leagues are full of what are essentially social clubs with a football team on the side. It’s embarrassing.

 

 

This 

 

[johnthomas]

3 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Even if those clubs are holding up progress of the game?

They are holding up progress but don't actually need to 'die'

Restructuring power in Scotland could easily fix things . These small clubs would still have their place .

All sounds so easy doesn't it 

[Bazzas right boot]

Most countries have 2 leagues. 

 

Most countries have bigger leagues. 

 

It's not rocket science the blue print is there, we don't need to come up with daft ideas and reinvent the wheel, just copy another country. 

[oi oi]

3 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

The "old firm" no longer exist.

[Lone Striker]

23 minutes ago, itsnomarooned said:

Scotland - population 5 million, 42 'top' clubs plus a host of amateur/junior sides.

 

Belgium - population 11.5 million, 2 professional leagues (26 clubs), then what looks like a proper pyramid structure underneath

Thats a telling stat, right there. 

 

Someone correctly  mentioned above that the change to allow home teams to keep 100% of their home gate (back in the late  80s ?)  helped the OF enormously ... all clubs visiting them got nothing, while it started the concept of  clubs selling as many tickets as possible to the travelling bigots .... which in turn lead to the concept of wee clubs needing 2 home games against the OF just to survive.  A subsidised existence, but not by the local community or fans.  The whole thing is outrageous now, especially  now that we are living within our means with the consent and voluntary support of our fans.

 

I agree with several folk above - a big step forward would be to introduce a part-time or semi-pro league for the Brechins of this world, and get the professional fulltime teams into their own setup.   Promotion from the semi-pro league should require a team to meet the full-time criteria.

 

  

 

 

 

to the OF 

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

 

 

They of value to the game is a false economy for all the  other clubs. 

 

I agree on the second part 100 %. 

[Nookie Bear]

4 hours ago, 3fingersreid said:

Prior to that vote I would always defend the lower league teams , now it’s simply a case of I don’t care a jot about them 

I’m with this. 

[Section Q]

4 hours ago, jager man said:

All this talk of funding for lower leagues from the Scottish Government has got me thinking. If any club is really struggling then the chances are their own fans/community will bail them out. If they find this impossible then i think it tells a great deal about that club and whether they should be in the scottish professional leagues.  

Is it time too let them die?

Take their medicine.......

[SomethingAboutObua]

12 minutes ago, graygo said:

If not lifting a finger to help them is letting them die then yes.

 

ps. All teams in the SPFL are professional, some are part time but still professional.

Isn't it that they're full-time but not professional? Becausee they train full time but don't live off the wage? Either way, it's a joke that our "senior football" system is over half part time clubs

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, jager man said:

All this talk of funding for lower leagues from the Scottish Government has got me thinking. If any club is really struggling then the chances are their own fans/community will bail them out. If they find this impossible then i think it tells a great deal about that club and whether they should be in the scottish professional leagues.  

Is it time too let them die?

I know a few Cowdenbeath fans, from when we were last down in 2014-15. Bought them a pint after the 10-0 game. Along with 300 other diehards they go home and some away. Two come up from Nottingham to do so. It would be a real shame for them to go bust and disappear. 
But after what’s happened this summer if they do I will sympathise with those guys but echo what Donald Findlay said talking about our situation  “what’s fair got to do with it”. Take your medicine, deal with it etc. 

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, David McCaig said:

Surely, we don’t have 34 teams capable of being full time professional clubs in Scotland?

Got 42 now. I wouldnt get too hung up on the numbers. 2 leagues of 14 would probably be plenty. 

[ToadKiller Dog]

3 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Correct. We really only need 3 pro leagues

14 team Premier

10 team Championship

10 team 1st Div

34 teams in total

Done.

Rest should go part time Junior etc.

I would go different 

14 team premier (would like bigger but not realistic)

16 or 18 league championship 

The rest split to regional leagues east n west or north n south , with juniors or others who want in ,gives the ambitious small sides a chance and the dead weights will find a place where the bus fair isn't that bad .

Edited September 29, 2020 by ToadKiller Dog

[OTT]

4 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The leagues are full of what are essentially social clubs with a football team on the side. It’s embarrassing.

 

Its become very apparent that too many clubs aren't professional. We need to whittle down the SPFL to effectively 2 leagues. I don't believe the chairmen of the various smaller clubs in Scottish football should be making decisions about clubs way above their level. Factually, a professional football club has very different needs to a semi professional club. These people voted to make us take a seven figure hit and utterly washed their hands of responsibility for that. Hearts & Partick both employ a lot of people and wilfully looking to cause financial harm which could jeopardise jobs is unbelievably irresponsible and a complete abdication of the expectation of good faith between clubs. 

 

IMO the clubs who can afford to run a professional outfit need to break away and form 2 leagues with very stringent requirements for promotion into the 2nd league. I don't want us to be needing to manage 40+ personalities to try and get a vote through which clubs in the bottom 2 divisions will vote against despite it having no impact on them. 

 

I would expect us to support any proposal regarding a breakaway league which ends the farcical voting system and ensures that clubs are only making decisions around what actually impacts them. You cannot trust club chairmen to vote with integrity as we've saw. I'm not advocating letting these clubs go bust, I'm suggesting that the professional clubs look after themselves and let the semi professional clubs do the same. If that means clubs go bust, then its market correction. We can look at colt teams to beef up the semi pro level if needed. 

[CJGJ]

There is no harm in clubs being in business if they can comply with rules and regulations

 

We can look at the voting structure of course in the lower leagues and some on here need to reflect on this as they seem to forget some clubs are a part of the local community and it is not anyone's god given right to be based in the the large conurbations and hell mend the small clubs

 

You might not like how they vote but that is no reason to take out frustrations on them....change the system if you wish

 

It is all part of a bigger question on league reconstruction but there always needs to be a pyramid of some sort and not a closed shop

 

Playing in a league under the Professional League banner brings with it many responsibilities and that is something to be looked at but we CANNOT take away ambition and the ability to rise/fall.

 

So we should fight for their survival and help where we are able...again our own recent past should be a gentle reminder of that.

 

There will always be a limit on how much and no one has the right to a blank cheque......clubs have 'died' before and will do so again but at least not because others are forcing them out of business within football (of course subject to the rules etc)

 

 

[jambo-in-furness]

It will be fun when the likes of St Johnston,  St Liedown,  Hamilton,  Killie  and maybe Livi go tits up,  and we can point at the SPFL and the part time clubs whose lack of foresight brought the end of business to full time clubs,  and hopefully,  plastic pitches.

[Neil Dongcaster]

4 minutes ago, jambo-in-furness said:

It will be fun when the likes of St Johnston,  St Liedown,  Hamilton,  Killie  and maybe Livi go tits up,  and we can point at the SPFL and the part time clubs whose lack of foresight brought the end of business to full time clubs,  and hopefully,  plastic pitches.

I think Livingston are pretty well run aren’t they?

[upgotheheads]

4 hours ago, DH1986 said:

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

 

In a nutshell.

[Pans Jambo]

16 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

I would go different 

14 team premier (would like bigger but not realistic)

16 or 18 league championship 

The rest split to regional leagues east n west or north n south , with juniors or others who want in ,gives the ambitious small sides a chance and the dead weights will find a place where the bus fair isn't that bad .

That would do it. 

[Rick Sanchez]

What are the squads at these teams looking like? Are they now paying players? They've been let off easy with having no squads to speak of these last few months.

 

No tears will be shed here anyway.

[Last Laff]

I would care if a few went down the tubes but I won’t actively want it to happen 🤣

[upgotheheads]

3 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

This would do it. 

 

20 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

I would go different 

14 team premier (would like bigger but not realistic)

16 or 18 league championship 

The rest split to regional leagues east n west or north n south , with juniors or others who want in ,gives the ambitious small sides a chance and the dead weights will find a place where the bus fair isn't that bad .

 

Yup.

 

PS. I edited Pans Jambo's words from That to This, which was a bit unethical. I got the quotes in the wrong order.

Edited September 29, 2020 by upgotheheads

[Angel eyes]

5 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Even if those clubs are holding up progress of the game?

But why should a guys team disappear just because they’re part time and in the grand scheme of other than making up the numbers add nothing to the Scottish game it’s no their fault they are a less fashionable club and don’t have a substantial fan base.....Rangers & Celtic you could argue do more harm to the Scottish game than any part time team does.

[GinRummy]

2 hours ago, Anything2 said:

You might find that their communities would take more of an interest if they  were not in the SPFL. Teams like Bonnyrigg for example get folks going along to watch who support other professional teams, often Hearts, because Hearts aren't playing, are away to Ross County, can't afford the ticket etc. If you were a Rangers fan from Brechin, it might be more palatable to go and watch your local team if your local team weren't part of the same structure as the team you have chosen to support. They may also have "bigger" games if they were playing to win their league or Cup. 

Maybe, worth trying at least. The game here is in such disarray (even before Covid) that just about any change is welcome. I just can’t get much enthusiasm up for any ideas because it comes back to the same problem, rangers and Celtic. 

[soonbe110]

26 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

I think Livingston are pretty well run aren’t they?

Especially with QPR’s help.  

[SomethingAboutObua]

39 minutes ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

I would go different 

14 team premier (would like bigger but not realistic)

16 or 18 league championship 

The rest split to regional leagues east n west or north n south , with juniors or others who want in ,gives the ambitious small sides a chance and the dead weights will find a place where the bus fair isn't that bad .

Just add my thought on this, I'd like to see

14 team top flight 
10-14 team 2nd tier, all teams professional or 75% professional
20 team semi-pro National League, let teams reject promotion

3 Regional Leagues of North, West and East, let teams reject promotion
Continually re-regionalised below. 

That lets teams survive and play at more appropriate levels

[Neil Dongcaster]

9 minutes ago, Angel eyes said:

But why should a guys team disappear just because they’re part time and in the grand scheme of other than making up the numbers add nothing to the Scottish game it’s no their fault they are a less fashionable club and don’t have a substantial fan base.....Rangers & Celtic you could argue do more harm to the Scottish game than any part time team does.

Having read other posts and considered my earlier post, others are right they don’t need to die. However they need to be self sustainable and able to move with the times.

 

A breakaway of two leagues with a pyramid system underneath is the only real route forward for Scottish football.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

 

 

A breakaway of two leagues with a pyramid system underneath is the only real route forward for Scottish football.

There's already a breakaway league.

 

You better believe they couldn't give two ****s about what happens to everyone outside it right now.

 

[Beast Boy]

Playing each other once home and once away is a must for me too. Won’t ever happen though, whilst clubs need Celtic and Rangers to pay their bills.

[Spellczech]

I don't actively want any club to die but I will actively only support Hearts. If Covid is not the boot up the backside the SPFL and SFA need to make changes to the set-up then nothing ever likely will be. They can bleat about tradition and how Queens Park and Clyde were once great clubs with fine history but the OF have already ruined these clubs as serious football teams. It is time for the league to be reduced to 2 leagues and a PT pyramid below that.

[NANOJAMBO]

1 minute ago, Spellczech said:

I don't actively want any club to die but I will actively only support Hearts. If Covid is not the boot up the backside the SPFL and SFA need to make changes to the set-up then nothing ever likely will be. They can bleat about tradition and how Queens Park and Clyde were once great clubs with fine history but the OF have already ruined these clubs as serious football teams. It is time for the league to be reduced to 2 leagues and a PT pyramid below that.

That's it for me, in a nutshell. 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Ann Budge's original 14-14-14 idea was as close to the right solution in the circumstances than anything else proposed, especially the bit about allowing for the bottom league to mothball. Even just having two more derbies in the top league would have added some more tasty fixtures to the league. But with an SPFL that can't even find a sponsor, what hope is there for any original thinking?

Edited September 29, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, graygo said:

 

ps. All teams in the SPFL are professional, some are part time but still professional.

 

That's a good call. The SPFL should be for full-time professional clubs.

 

According to the Forfar chairman, there are 23 full-time professional teams in Scotland - https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/scottish-league-1/1297813/exclusive-three-leagues-of-14-would-diminish-part-time-teams-promotion-incentive-says-forfar-chairman/

[Weakened Offender]

I'm happy for Hibs, Raith Rovers, Dundee and Ross County to die. 

[Beast Boy]

Honestly though, until the gap between second and third is narrowed, none of the other suggestions will make a blind bit of difference. It’s just rearranging the same shite a bit. Only way that will happen imo, is a bigger top division playing each other home and away, percentage cap on away supports, and a more even distribution of TV cash. 
 

Lots of other good ideas on the thread, but until you address the biggest issue, none of those ideas will make much of a positive difference.

[Spellczech]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

That's a good call. The SPFL should be for full-time professional clubs.

 

According to the Forfar chairman, there are 23 full-time professional teams in Scotland - https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/scottish-league-1/1297813/exclusive-three-leagues-of-14-would-diminish-part-time-teams-promotion-incentive-says-forfar-chairman/

Could easily do 3 up 3 down, or even 4 up 4 down to keep it interesting. or 2 auto and 2 into playoffs. The resistance to change is ingrained, same as these old duffers parading around in badged blazers

[graygo]

2 hours ago, SomethingAboutObua said:

Isn't it that they're full-time but not professional? Becausee they train full time but don't live off the wage? Either way, it's a joke that our "senior football" system is over half part time clubs

 

No. All clubs in the SPFL are professional now that Queens Park ditched their amateur status.

 

Edited to add that this is my understanding of it, been wrong before.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by graygo

[Tasavallan]

I am not for clubs dying but the semi-pro teams need to be segregated from the fully professional teams.  The amalgamation in 2012 between the SPL and SFL went too far when they were joined under one body.  SPL 2 was discussed at the time and in retrospect 2 leagues of professional teams would have been the ideal option but then discussions were all about what to do with Oldco/Newco.  42 clubs is too many in a country where the majority of the population resides along the central belt.  Let the lower leagues look after themselves and those that cannot financially survive can do a Third Lanark, Gretna, Clydebank or Selkirk.

[Debut 4]

5 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Very rarely do the old firm take the best players from other teams in the league these days. Competition from down south is too fierce now. With that said, the bigger teams in every league sign players from the smaller teams it’s a natural occurrence. 
 

The media is a business, they focus on the old firm because the old firm have by far the largest fan base and therefore the old firm stories make the media the most money.

 

With regards to nobody else finishing above them. That’s on everyone else. It’s my opinion that we are by far the biggest underachieving team in Scottish football. It’s not the old firms fault that we sacked Burley for example or that we couldn’t beat Dundee in 86.

 

With regards to things like the format of the league, when you have teams like Hamilton and ST Mirren and ST J in the league that rely on the old firm visiting fans to survive from year to year the format of the league will never change.

 

In short the old firm have a strangle hold on Scottish football however that strangle hold is by consent from the majority of the other clubs.

I agree with a fair amount there but the 2nd last paragraph is the reason why (or in part) our game has died a slow death.....I get that maybe people were bored in the 70s and wanted change. It happens. 
 

It was fresh and exciting for a while having a tighter division but when it clearly started to go stale and fans kept going on about change again for years and years, no one paid attention.  
 

Its slowly scythed the decent supports of smaller clubs too.  You used to get 12,13,000 at Dunfermline when we played them, lucky if you get just over half that now. Killie used to have a decent base support but through the years they’ve probably lost more support to the arsecheeks.....The excitement went. 4 games against each team, each season, became boring and probably helped enhance the Old Firm’s ability to stretch away further. 

You could get a full house in Perth if we played there at Xmas time. No chance now.

 

They even stopped relegation one year from the SPL, it’s mostly only been 1 down too.  Where’s the incentive been for the lower league clubs?

 

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

6 hours ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Very rarely do the old firm take the best players from other teams in the league these days. 
 

 

They certainly try with their low ball bids and tactic of unsettling players. But they're rarely willing to pay decent money for players at Scottish clubs so those players have more lucrative options elsewhere. Hickey's a great example. Celtic need a new LB. He's a Celtic fan. We'd have taken £2m for him and they'd solve their LB problem in the short term and long term they'd be looking at another Tierney-sized windfall potentially. Instead, as they did with John McGinn, James McCarthy, Andy Robertson they're more often than not just not willing to pony up the cash for a Scottish player.

Edited September 29, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

Yes it certainly is ! Preferably Dundee and Ayr utd first quickly followed by st lie down and hamilton 

[Pasquale for King]

2 hours ago, jambo-in-furness said:

It will be fun when the likes of St Johnston,  St Liedown,  Hamilton,  Killie  and maybe Livi go tits up,  and we can point at the SPFL and the part time clubs whose lack of foresight brought the end of business to full time clubs,  and hopefully,  plastic pitches.

Livi have the money they’re getting for Lyndon Dykes over the next wee while so should get through this. The others though 🤞.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pasquale for King

[Pasquale for King]

17 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

I agree with a fair amount there but the 2nd last paragraph is the reason why (or in part) our game has died a slow death.....I get that maybe people were bored in the 70s and wanted change. It happens. 
 

It was fresh and exciting for a while having a tighter division but when it clearly started to go stale and fans kept going on about change again for years and years, no one paid attention.  
 

Its slowly scythed the decent supports of smaller clubs too.  You used to get 12,13,000 at Dunfermline when we played them, lucky if you get just over half that now. Killie used to have a decent base support but through the years they’ve probably lost more support to the arsecheeks.....The excitement went. 4 games against each team, each season, became boring and probably helped enhance the Old Firm’s ability to stretch away further. 

You could get a full house in Perth if we played there at Xmas time. No chance now.

 

They even stopped relegation one year from the SPL, it’s mostly only been 1 down too.  Where’s the incentive been for the lower league clubs?

 

 

 

All true, add in places like Kilmarnock being hit hard by unemployment, low paid jobs and the frankly scandalous price for the football on offer. 

[John Findlay]

Over 15,000 at Rugby Park for our Scottish cup semi final there in 1996. When we won 1-3 I believe.

[Pans Jambo]

54 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

I'm happy for Hibs, Raith Rovers, Dundee, Hamilton, St.Mirren, Ayr and Ross County to die. 

FTFY

Edited September 29, 2020 by Pans Jambo

[Neil Dongcaster]

23 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

They certainly try with their low ball bids and tactic of unsettling players. But they're rarely willing to pay decent money for players at Scottish clubs so those players have more lucrative options elsewhere. Hickey's a great example. Celtic need a new LB. He's a Celtic fan. We'd have taken £2m for him and they'd solve their LB problem in the short term and long term they'd be looking at another Tierney-sized windfall potentially. Instead, as they did with John McGinn, James McCarthy, Andy Robertson they're more often than not just not willing to pony up the cash for a Scottish player.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/1195865/motherwell-hearts-chris-cadden-100000/amp/

 

 

[Independence]

4 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/1195865/motherwell-hearts-chris-cadden-100000/amp/

 

 

In the Sun...must have been true? 

[WoolfordsHearts]

The fact we have so many "proffesional  clubs" playing on guffy astro turf tells you all you need to know about our tinpot setup.

[Neil Dongcaster]

24 minutes ago, Independence said:

In the Sun...must have been true? 

Alan Burrows confirmed it at the time I believe.

[i8hibsh]

I think the only person at our club who gives a **** about any other club than Hearts is that battle axe, Mrs Mangle ***** Budge.

 

**** every single club 

[H2]

A league of two for the old firm and let the rest of us get competitive