Is it time to let some Scottish clubs die?

[jager man]

All this talk of funding for lower leagues from the Scottish Government has got me thinking. If any club is really struggling then the chances are their own fans/community will bail them out. If they find this impossible then i think it tells a great deal about that club and whether they should be in the scottish professional leagues.  

Is it time too let them die?

[Neil Dongcaster]

The leagues are full of what are essentially social clubs with a football team on the side. It’s embarrassing.

[3fingersreid]

Prior to that vote I would always defend the lower league teams , now it’s simply a case of I don’t care a jot about them 

[John Findlay]

I'm old fashioned. I personally dont want to see any club die. In the current climate at present, it looks inevitable that a few may.

[Cruyff]

Yes. Scotland should have 30 or 32 professional clubs that are professionally run. 

 

If there are part timers that go to the wall or apparent professional clubs that can't get their house in order, then they should be let go. 

 

There's probably 18/20 clubs in Scotland that are actually professional in the professional sense. The rest are bowling committees who have way too much power. 

 

It's those part timers that are causing all this uncertainty because they can't do things in a professional manner. We need to cut the apron strings. It might be the case of merge, drop into the juniors or die. 🤷

[Neil Dongcaster]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

I'm old fashioned. I personally dont want to see any club die. In the current climate at present, it looks inevitable that a few may.

Even if those clubs are holding up progress of the game?

[Beast Boy]

Not sure about let them die as such. In this post Sevco world that we live in, they wouldn’t have to die really. Just reform pretend they are the same club. With the pyramid now in place, when they do reform, they will find it harder to sit an occupy a space in the fourth division with no intention of ever doing anything. 
 

What I do think we need to see, is professional clubs and part time clubs divided on to their own divisions, and a requirement of promotion being that a club needs to turn professional. This last part would be for the top division/divisions only.

 

I keep saying it, but I think there should be a percentage of stadium cap put on how many tickets can be sold to away teams too. Clubs being reliant on (larger than home) away crowds of other teams in order to pay the bills is a disaster waiting to happen. It also means these clubs are bribed in to voting the way their paymasters decree.

[DH1986]

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

[Dia Liom]

Not seeing it in those brutal terms but it definitely feels like time for a shakeup.  By all accounts there are many well run clubs that could contribute to the league system, and a lot of poorly run clubs that are protected by the spfl racket denying them a place.

 

How we don't have a proper pyramid is bizarre to me.

[John Findlay]

16 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Even if those clubs are holding up progress of the game?

Are they? To me there are two clubs holding up progress of the game overall in Scotland as that would be to their disadvantage.

[Anything2]

13 minutes ago, Beast Boy said:

9 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

What I do think we need to see, is professional clubs and part time clubs divided on to their own divisions, and a requirement of promotion being that a club needs to turn professional. This last part would be for the top division/divisions only.

Bitterness over the last few months aside, this is where I'm at.

 

In terms of turning professional on promotion to the top leagues, the standard should be high enough that anyone winning the pyramid league should have a professional approach even if they aren't in theory paying professional wages and be in a position to turn pro on promotion. If tinpot teams were winning it then they full time teams should be trimmed down further. 

[Byyy The Light]

13 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

 

Nailed it. Full time should be minimum criteria for making the professional set up.

[Mikey1874]

14 minutes ago, DH1986 said:

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

Find your level.

 

Cove Rangers level may be the Championship.

 

Auchinleck (eventually), Kelty Hearts, maybe Bo'ness and Bonnyrigg level at least League Two.

 

Lots of current clubs level is the Lowland and Highland leagues. 

 

Rangers and Celtic and other Colt teams another consideration.

 

We could just leave it to natural forces. Or restructure the leagues. 

[Neil Dongcaster]

14 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Are they? To me there are two clubs holding up progress of the game overall in Scotland as that would be to their disadvantage.

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

[Biffa Bacon]

Its up to them, either the directors or fans bail them out until they can get revenue from supporters or hospitality income, or they don't.

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, Biffa Bacon said:

Its up to them, either the directors or fans bail them out until they can get revenue from supporters or hospitality income, or they don't.

 

Who wants it more is good measure or place to be.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Mikey1874

[Biffa Bacon]

7 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back

Let's just think about this for a minute... the most uncompetitive league in world football, only 2 teams have won in the last 35 years (old rangers and celtic). They continue to take the best players from other clubs. The media cannot see past them, it is only about the OF. Who will finish 3rd is common parlance before a ball is kicked, and this is accepted by most, doing nothing to promote the Scottish game.

[Unknown user]

I always thought I wouldn't wish a dead club on any fan but I've found myself pricing grave dancing shoes recently. 

[Neil Dongcaster]

1 minute ago, Biffa Bacon said:

Let's just think about this for a minute... the most uncompetitive league in world football, only 2 teams have won in the last 35 years (old rangers and celtic). They continue to take the best players from other clubs. The media cannot see past them, it is only about the OF. Who will finish 3rd is common parlance before a ball is kicked, and this is accepted by most, doing nothing to promote the Scottish game.

Very rarely do the old firm take the best players from other teams in the league these days. Competition from down south is too fierce now. With that said, the bigger teams in every league sign players from the smaller teams it’s a natural occurrence. 
 

The media is a business, they focus on the old firm because the old firm have by far the largest fan base and therefore the old firm stories make the media the most money.

 

With regards to nobody else finishing above them. That’s on everyone else. It’s my opinion that we are by far the biggest underachieving team in Scottish football. It’s not the old firms fault that we sacked Burley for example or that we couldn’t beat Dundee in 86.

 

With regards to things like the format of the league, when you have teams like Hamilton and ST Mirren and ST J in the league that rely on the old firm visiting fans to survive from year to year the format of the league will never change.

 

In short the old firm have a strangle hold on Scottish football however that strangle hold is by consent from the majority of the other clubs.

[John Findlay]

22 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

They dont do they.

They stifle competition at every opportunity. Without competition football is nothing.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

Apart from St Mirren, no. 
 

Our league should only be open to full time professional clubs who have some sort of youth academy though. The rest can exist in the pyramid, cater to their community, play in the cups, and aim to turn professional and join the big leagues.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

24 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

Of course they do. Their stranglehold prevents other teams having a chance of a CL payday for a start. And the way they hoover up domestic talent then sit them on the bench hurts other clubs and the game as a whole, 

[John Findlay]

3 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Very rarely do the old firm take the best players from other teams in the league these days. Competition from down south is too fierce now. With that said, the bigger teams in every league sign players from the smaller teams it’s a natural occurrence. 
 

The media is a business, they focus on the old firm because the old firm have by far the largest fan base and therefore the old firm stories make the media the most money.

 

With regards to nobody else finishing above them. That’s on everyone else. It’s my opinion that we are by far the biggest underachieving team in Scottish football. It’s not the old firms fault that we sacked Burley for example or that we couldn’t beat Dundee in 86.

 

With regards to things like the format of the league, when you have teams like Hamilton and ST Mirren and ST J in the league that rely on the old firm visiting fans to survive from year to year the format of the league will never change.

 

In short the old firm have a strangle hold on Scottish football however that strangle hold is by consent from the majority of the other clubs.

The biggest thing the old firm got changed was not sharing home gates with the opposition. I disagree with you greatly. See why they were giving the term the Old Firm in the first place.

[Neil Dongcaster]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The biggest thing the old firm got changed was not sharing home gates with the opposition. I disagree with you greatly. See why they were giving the term the Old Firm in the first place.

I wouldn’t want Hearts sharing my money with ST Mirren or Hamilton either.

 

It’s ok that you disagree, I respect your opinion.

[Bull's-eye]

All the clubs had a summer of discontent to join forces and work something out for the betterment of themselves which in my humble would be for the benefit of the game as a whole. 

 

There would have been nothing wrong with an enquiry into the future of the game, it's not like any clubs weren't warned of the consequences of closing their ears, shutting their eyes and behaving like stubborn selfish egomaniacs.

 

No, feck them all. 

 

[SomethingAboutObua]

Would rather the SPFL die and the pro teams form an actually professionnal and full time league set up, and clubs like Albion Rovers join a suitable set up.  

[Rudy T]

13 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

Very rarely do the old firm take the best players from other teams in the league these days. Competition from down south is too fierce now. With that said, the bigger teams in every league sign players from the smaller teams it’s a natural occurrence. 
 

The media is a business, they focus on the old firm because the old firm have by far the largest fan base and therefore the old firm stories make the media the most money.

 

With regards to nobody else finishing above them. That’s on everyone else. It’s my opinion that we are by far the biggest underachieving team in Scottish football. It’s not the old firms fault that we sacked Burley for example or that we couldn’t beat Dundee in 86.

 

With regards to things like the format of the league, when you have teams like Hamilton and ST Mirren and ST J in the league that rely on the old firm visiting fans to survive from year to year the format of the league will never change.

 

In short the old firm have a strangle hold on Scottish football however that strangle hold is by consent from the majority of the other clubs.

 

They have the biggest fan base of glory hunting bigots. If half their fan base supported their local team then we'd have a far more competitive league.

 

I just hope the next generation see these 2 for what they are and support their local team. I'd rather sit and talk football to Hibs fans than any Edinburgh Celtic or Rangers fan. The irony is none of them can see why the games in such a state while they sit there 10 minutes from there local clubs ground and tell everyone these clubs need the old firm. Every one of them is a f@nny.

[jambonian]

Just now, Beast Boy said:

Not sure about let them die as such. In this post Sevco world that we live in, they wouldn’t have to die really. Just reform pretend they are the same club. With the pyramid now in place, when they do reform, they will find it harder to sit an occupy a space in the fourth division with no intention of ever doing anything. 
 

What I do think we need to see, is professional clubs and part time clubs divided on to their own divisions, and a requirement of promotion being that a club needs to turn professional. This last part would be for the top division/divisions only.

 

I keep saying it, but I think there should be a percentage of stadium cap put on how many tickets can be sold to away teams too. Clubs being reliant on (larger than home) away crowds of other teams in order to pay the bills is a disaster waiting to happen. It also means these clubs are bribed in to voting the way their paymasters decree.

 

Wasn't St Johnstone (a club I now very much despise because of Tommy Wright) hoping to open three sides of their ground to old firm fans? Another nothing club in the "yes sir, no sir , three bags full sir" way when it comes to licking OF butts.

[DH1986]

23 minutes ago, Smithee said:

I always thought I wouldn't wish a dead club on any fan but I've found myself pricing grave dancing shoes recently. 

I find it tough to wish ill on clubs like Raith Rovers......they are currently ruled by a board that don’t care about anything else but them. But prior to this our clubs had a great relationship.....and we probably will again in the future.

 

Clubs, players and fans didn’t vote against us.....some tit in a £75 suit is to blame,

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, jambonian said:

 

Wasn't St Johnstone (a club I now very much despise because of Tommy Wright) hoping to open three sides of their ground to old firm fans? Another nothing club in the "yes sir, no sir , three bags full sir" way when it comes to licking OF butts.

Yes they were. That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about. I know some folk disagree with me on this one, but I’m absolutely opposed to it. We need to be getting to a position where every club is self sustaining, on their own income resources, and not those of other clubs. Then you have a league set up where clubs are divided along lines of full time and part time. If you get promoted from a part time league, then you have to go professional. 

[reaths17]

Forfar,brechin,montrose,arbroath all within about a 10 mile square should be amalgamated into angus utd or summit, there just isn't the population to support 4 professional teams. falkrik,stenhousemuir.....stirling, east stirling, alloa other areas just the same not enough populace to support that many pro teams if they amalgamate they then form meaningful teams that the communities can support in a professional manor

[jambopilms]

Not die but if they are not professional they should have no say on how the professional game is run. Gordon Strachan got it right a few months ago.

Voting on the basis of a few extra away fans or an extra hour on a bus journey is highly embarrassing for a national sport to be run.

[Pans Jambo]

1 hour ago, DH1986 said:

The smaller clubs don’t need to die....they just need to move into a league which is more suited to their size.

 

The days of Part-Time clubs making decisions which affect Full-Time clubs has to end.

 

 

Correct. We really only need 3 pro leagues

14 team Premier

10 team Championship

10 team 1st Div

34 teams in total

Done.

Rest should go part time Junior etc.

[Cruyff]

57 minutes ago, Neil Dongcaster said:

The old firm don’t hold Scottish football back. They are the biggest pull in Scottish football.

 

Clubs voting to prevent other clubs being promoted purely based on the cost of petrol to get there are an example of what holds us back.

Correct.

 

The old firm are Scottish footballs biggest hurdle, sporting wise and socially.

 

Sporting wise with their domination and refusal to compromise on a fairer structured league and voting system.

 

Socially the problems they create in society with sectarianism. 

 

Ultimately however, this league would be a the worst pub league in Europe without them with no TV deal, little sponsorship, no big away OF support propping up diddy teams. They hold a fine balance. It would be better if they weren't so self centered and selfish but as we've seen, it isn't just them. I believe they were willing to compromise on re-structuring the leagues, it was the diddy teams that were against it. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Cruyff

[Beast Boy]

4 minutes ago, reaths17 said:

Forfar,brechin,montrose,arbroath all within about a 10 mile square should be amalgamated into angus utd or summit, there just isn't the population to support 4 professional teams. falkrik,stenhousemuir.....stirling, east stirling, alloa other areas just the same not enough populace to support that many pro teams if they amalgamate they then form meaningful teams that the communities can support in a professional manor

Too much history for that. The new amalgamated clubs would be poorly supported and just die off. Better to let them play other wee sides of a similar size in a division separate from the professional game imo.

[GinRummy]

22 minutes ago, reaths17 said:

Forfar,brechin,montrose,arbroath all within about a 10 mile square should be amalgamated into angus utd or summit, there just isn't the population to support 4 professional teams. falkrik,stenhousemuir.....stirling, east stirling, alloa other areas just the same not enough populace to support that many pro teams if they amalgamate they then form meaningful teams that the communities can support in a professional manor

The communities aren’t interested. They’ll just keep catching their supporters buses to Glasgow every week. 

[AndrewB]

- The creation of the pyramid with the Lowland League and Highland League having a route to League Two.

- The welcoming of Junior Teams into the "Senior" set-up

 

These were the first two steps towards developing a good non-league structure like England.

 

The third step is to bring the lesser teams down from League 2 (maybe League 1 also) into it.  It would always have been hard to say to someone like Clyde or Queens Park or someone with a history - "tough, the bottom 10-12 teams are going non-league" but the pandemic has given the opportunity for clubs to go that way voluntarily.  They should get a wee push that way.

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

They don’t need to die. They just need to accept that they’re masquerading as professional clubs when in fact, they are basically amateur or semi-pro organisations. Reform or realign at a sensible level and alter a scenario where clubs with crowds of 250 dictate what goes on at the top of the game. It’s a ridiculous set up

[David Black]

It should be more about them finding their true level in the game and that is not in Scotland's senior league's. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Melodramatic really,  not aimed at OP but the general public. 

 

Phoenix club is the term,  they don't die but come back as a fresh company working from the bottom. 

 

Non issue 

[Tazio]

40 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

Wasn't St Johnstone (a club I now very much despise because of Tommy Wright) hoping to open three sides of their ground to old firm fans? Another nothing club in the "yes sir, no sir , three bags full sir" way when it comes to licking OF butts.

Look at Motherwell’s hovel of a stadium. The biggest stand specifically built for the OF visiting to get cash in. 

[redjambo]

Just seen this thread. Letting clubs die, putting aside our legitimate gripes regarding their behaviour to us earlier this year, might seem a bit excessive, but the SPFL should definitely be pruned to leave professional clubs only.

 

I am in favour of amalgamations for smaller clubs, but the supporters just won't go for it. They should look at ICT for evidence of where it works. Meanwhile Clach, who didn't want to come aboard, languished in 15th place in the Highland League last term.

[Maple Leaf]

Let Hibs die.  Let St. Mirren die.

 

That would be a good start.

[JamboBoy]

What is required is some sort of franchise system where clubs must meet certain minimum standards before being considered for membership. It is absolutely ludicrous that clubs like Cove, Peterhead, Cowdenbeath have the same voting rights as our own club. During the various discussions on BBC Radio Scotland during the voting shambles Donald Findlay was talking as if he was Chairman of Manchester United. It was pathetic listening to it and he is not alone in being allowed to think that he and his pathetic club actually matter. This thinking has to stop and only clubs with real “skin in the game” should be making the big decisions and setting the direction. These smaller unprofessional clubs have every right to exist, just not as they are now. I don’t see what is wrong with that, except of course self preservation and loss of perceived status and benefits. The whole reason we are where we are with the state of our game at the supposed elite level is due to the ridiculous type of structure we have in place.  The results speak for themselves!

Edited September 29, 2020 by JamboBoy

[Blackshades]

1 hour ago, reaths17 said:

Forfar,brechin,montrose,arbroath all within about a 10 mile square should be amalgamated into angus utd or summit, there just isn't the population to support 4 professional teams. falkrik,stenhousemuir.....stirling, east stirling, alloa other areas just the same not enough populace to support that many pro teams if they amalgamate they then form meaningful teams that the communities can support in a professional manor

No danger Montrose and Arbroath would amalgamate they absolutely hate each other there are battles every time they play each other and east stirlingshie are already in the lowland league Edinburgh city took their place a few years ago

Edited September 29, 2020 by Blackshades

[Anything2]

1 hour ago, GinRummy said:

The communities aren’t interested. They’ll just keep catching their supporters buses to Glasgow every week. 

You might find that their communities would take more of an interest if they  were not in the SPFL. Teams like Bonnyrigg for example get folks going along to watch who support other professional teams, often Hearts, because Hearts aren't playing, are away to Ross County, can't afford the ticket etc. If you were a Rangers fan from Brechin, it might be more palatable to go and watch your local team if your local team weren't part of the same structure as the team you have chosen to support. They may also have "bigger" games if they were playing to win their league or Cup. 

[David McCaig]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Correct. We really only need 3 pro leagues

14 team Premier

10 team Championship

10 team 1st Div

34 teams in total

Done.

Rest should go part time Junior etc.

Surely, we don’t have 34 teams capable of being full time professional clubs in Scotland?

[itsnomarooned]

Scotland - population 5 million, 42 'top' clubs plus a host of amateur/junior sides.

 

Belgium - population 11.5 million, 2 professional leagues (26 clubs), then what looks like a proper pyramid structure underneath

[Skivingatwork]

While I don’t want to see any clubs die, there has to be a reorganisation of the leagues in Scotland. 
 

No way we can justify 42 senior clubs when more than half struggle to pull in a few hundred fans through the gates.

 

2 professional leagues with the remainder as junior teams. A national super league for the top teams and regional structure below.

 

[graygo]

If not lifting a finger to help them is letting them die then yes.

 

ps. All teams in the SPFL are professional, some are part time but still professional.