Vilified Hearts midfielders

[jbee647]

George Fleming was the first one I remember, got dogs abuse from a section of the Hearts support, we literally gave him away to Dundee United, was McLeans first ever signing, McLean said he was one of his best ever signings, gave United 10 years of service and won a League Cup medal

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

I am sure John Millar wasn't exactly a favourite after his first season for us.

 

John Millar was an instant success in 91/92. Scored a lot from midfield and we finished 2nd. 

[4marsbars]

IaIn Jardine, mentioned on previous page, wasn't 'vilified'. He was unfortunate with injuries. He was at the heart of that fantastic campaign in 85-86, a real stand-out, adding guile / skill to the midfield mix (midfield three of Berry to win the ball, Jardine to put his foot on it, and Gary Mackay to surge forward and link up with Colquhoun and Robbo). That was a really well balanced team, but if you believe the pundits they were a bunch of journeymen who the manager managed to motivate. Pity these performances were not captured because of a stupid TV black-out for most of the season. But Jardine was out for a long time with an injury in the second half of the season. Kenny Black moved into midfield, and Whitaker got his place back at left back, and we were just as good (until that bit at the end...).

 

He played a bit the following season but not memorably (at least, I don't remember).

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Any shouts for Brian Hamilton yet?

 

Vilified. Rightly so. 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

MIdfield's all about combinations of players especially anchoring the centre of midfield. Luckily Neilson knows that very well. HIs midfields in 14/15, 16/17 and the first half of 17/18 had good balance, and they had decent wide players outside them. Apart from the start of 18/19 when Lee and Haring started really well, we haven't had a properly functional midfield since he left.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

15 hours ago, LeftBack said:

Always had a soft spot for Berry but he was vilified by many. Did his job to best of ability. 

 

I don't remember that at all. From that era I always thought Kenny Black got the most stick out of the regulars, even though he did a solid job most games. And Andy Watson is still the definition of "crap footballer" for me. 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

My recollection of Neil Berry is not that he was vilified, but that it was generally accepted he was a terrible football player but gave everything and it kind of worked the whole time he was with us. I thought he was liked. 

[jambonian]

Not sure the term defensive midfielder was around in the eighties. I remember Kenny Black as a left-sided player, a left-midfielder in a 4-3-3 formation with Gary Mackay and John Colquhoun wide right, or a 4-4-2 with Gary Mackay and Neil Berry in there. Black would also cover at left-back when Whittaker was injured or subbed.

The defensive midfielder tag was around the time Stefano Salvatori arrived in the mid-90s. That was probably the most cohesive midfield I can ever remember with all three midfielders having their own strengths, Salvatori defensive, Fulton passing and Cameron linking up-front in a 3-5-2. Still my favoured formation IF you have the right players to do it.

When we signed Neil MacFarlane I remember thinking "what for!?" but he turned out to be pretty decent at breaking down attacks and getting in the way.

One that I haven't seen mentioned (unless I missed it was Adrian Mrowiec. Didn't think much of him the first time he was here and was shocked that Jeffries wanted to bring him back after he was re-appointed. Done ok, nothing spectacular. Don't remember him actually leaving, he was just suddenly not there.

Nowadays we have had far too many defensive midfielders. Bauben, Gomis, Pallardo could all play there then add in Cowie, Kitchen and numerous others, (Nowak springs to mind) and right on up a couple of years until the season was halted. There's not been enough attacking midfielders and people say there wasn't/isn't any about but the likes of Hibs and others have found a few no problem. Hopefully there will be a gem out there who we can get but looking at the players we're looking at....i'm not so sure.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

He wasn't vilified but Scott Severin was a more than decent player for us. Did the basics well and had a decent turn of pace on him. Yes I know he ran his contract down. 

[jambonian]

Just now, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

My recollection of Neil Berry is not that he was vilified, but that it was generally accepted he was a terrible football player but gave everything and it kind of worked the whole time he was with us. I thought he was liked. 

 

I don't remember Berry getting much stick from the fans either. Everyone knew his limitations but his concentration level was always high and broke down plenty attacking threat from opposition players. If anything, he was probably one of Alex MacDonald's most reliable signings. What was it? Something like £40k from Bolton? Compared to the hatchet-man that was Stewart McLaren, Berry was a saint! Remember him? You didn't know if he was going to win a ball or injure the player until it happened. I'd love to have seen Stewart McLaren in his peak up against Scott Brown, squirming just thinking about it!

Edited August 24, 2020 by jambonian

[jambos are go!]

The last time we were in the Championship Gomis and Bauben ran the show and had the title won by Easter.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

20 minutes ago, jambonian said:

Not sure the term defensive midfielder was around in the eighties. I remember Kenny Black as a left-sided player, a left-midfielder in a 4-3-3 formation with Gary Mackay and John Colquhoun wide right, or a 4-4-2 with Gary Mackay and Neil Berry in there. Black would also cover at left-back when Whittaker was injured or subbed.

The defensive midfielder tag was around the time Stefano Salvatori arrived in the mid-90s. That was probably the most cohesive midfield I can ever remember with all three midfielders having their own strengths, Salvatori defensive, Fulton passing and Cameron linking up-front in a 3-5-2. Still my favoured formation IF you have the right players to do it.

When we signed Neil MacFarlane I remember thinking "what for!?" but he turned out to be pretty decent at breaking down attacks and getting in the way.

One that I haven't seen mentioned (unless I missed it was Adrian Mrowiec. Didn't think much of him the first time he was here and was shocked that Jeffries wanted to bring him back after he was re-appointed. Done ok, nothing spectacular. Don't remember him actually leaving, he was just suddenly not there.

Nowadays we have had far too many defensive midfielders. Bauben, Gomis, Pallardo could all play there then add in Cowie, Kitchen and numerous others, (Nowak springs to mind) and right on up a couple of years until the season was halted. There's not been enough attacking midfielders and people say there wasn't/isn't any about but the likes of Hibs and others have found a few no problem. Hopefully there will be a gem out there who we can get but looking at the players we're looking at....i'm not so sure.

 

 

We definitely haven't had a good creative mid/playmaker/No. 10 since Hartley or genuine quality box-to-box mid since Cameron. Walker is our last good goalscoring attacking midfielder, before him Skacel. In recent years, Djoum was a really good all-rounder but needed good players around him. As you say, far too many defensive, holding, "Stroller" type midfielder types - could add Whelan, Damour, Tsolis, Haring, Lee to that list, although the latter two looked good initially again as part of a combination in midfield. Cochrane and Irving have shown promise so hopefully a youngster can emerge this season. The thing about having these ball-winning, sitting midfielders is they need wide players or good creative players ahead of them, otherwise they're not effective, and we haven't had that since about October 2018.

Edited August 24, 2020 by ToqueJambo

[jambonian]

Just now, ToqueJambo said:

 

 

We definitely haven't had a good creative mid/playmaker/No. 10 since Hartley or genuine quality box-to-box mid since Cameron. Walker is our last good goalscoring attacking midfielder, before him Skacel. In recent years, Djoum was a really good all-rounder but needed good players around him. As you say, far too many defensive, holding, "Stroller" type midfielder types - could add Whelan, Damour, Tsolis, Haring, Lee to that list, although the latter two looked good initially again as part of a combination in midfield. Cochrane and Irving have shown promise so hopefully a youngster can emerge this season. The thing about having these ball-winning, sitting midfielders is they need wide players or good creative players ahead of them, otherwise they're not effective, and we haven't had that since about October 2018.

 

It's pretty scary that Hearts have struggled to find a quality (even half decent) attacking midfielder when others have. You could probably say the same about left-back. A few of our wide players have also been a let down so maybe with better width these defensive midfielders would've made more of an impact. Actually, maybe the strikers would've scored more goals if service from the wide areas was more productive as well. I mean....Mulraney? Morrison!? I'm looking at Irving to sit in there this season, or Haring if fit and hope we can get the extra width in the team to create more.

Edited August 24, 2020 by jambonian

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

John Millar was an instant success in 91/92. Scored a lot from midfield and we finished 2nd. 

 

He was better than average in a team that wasn't great.

 

Wish our midfielders could score now. 😢

[Guest]

Neil Berry had Paul McStay in his back pocket.  A limited, but important player in that team

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, jambonian said:

 

It's pretty scary that Hearts have struggled to find a quality (even half decent) attacking midfielder when others have. You could probably say the same about left-back. A few of our wide players have also been a let down so maybe with better width these defensive midfielders would've made more of an impact. Actually, maybe the strikers would've scored more goals if service from the wide areas was more productive as well. I mean....Mulraney? Morrison!? I'm looking at Irving to sit in there this season, or Haring if fit and hope we can get the extra width in the team to create more.

 

Yeah, the good thing is I think Neilson's strength when building teams is getting the midfield right. His teams had width and technical ability, plus a DM and/or deep-lying playmaker type. He always had a goalscoring attacking midfielder as well. I expect our midfield to be much better balanced by October but all this uncertainty no doubt makes it difficult to recruit.

[Chaps]

7 hours ago, Tommy Brown said:

David Obua

and deservedly so.

He was pish. Hibs goal gives him a bit leeway with the fans.

[3fingersreid]

4 hours ago, jbee647 said:

George Fleming was the first one I remember, got dogs abuse from a section of the Hearts support, we literally gave him away to Dundee United, was McLeans first ever signing, McLean said he was one of his best ever signings, gave United 10 years of service and won a League Cup medal

First player I seen wearing white boots . 
 

As a young boy at the games I remember Cammy Fraser getting a bit stick 

[Pasquale for King]

5 hours ago, Ominous said:

Laryea Kingston. The boy could play but most of the time it seemed as if he couldn't be bothered

What a player when he was motivated, probably why he had so many clubs. Hardly ever played against Hibs, once or twice I think. 

[Pasquale for King]

Joaquim Adao. Great player but a bit of a loose cannon.

He’s a free agent now, will put in that the transfer thread.

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

John Millar was an instant success in 91/92. Scored a lot from midfield and we finished 2nd. 

 

Fair enough, the early nineties are a little vague and I don't remember much what happened. So happy to be corrected. For the record I liked him. 

[Debut 4]

5 hours ago, jambonian said:

 

I don't remember Berry getting much stick from the fans either. Everyone knew his limitations but his concentration level was always high and broke down plenty attacking threat from opposition players. If anything, he was probably one of Alex MacDonald's most reliable signings. What was it? Something like £40k from Bolton? Compared to the hatchet-man that was Stewart McLaren, Berry was a saint! Remember him? You didn't know if he was going to win a ball or injure the player until it happened. I'd love to have seen Stewart McLaren in his peak up against Scott Brown, squirming just thinking about it!

NB was signed mid Alex MacDonald rebuild.  He shone in his first training session and put pen to paper.  Miles ahead in fitness of others at the time, first class attitude with his famed competitive edge. Great pro. 
 

Aside from ability we needed the right character back in the side at the time. It was obviously getting there, as the years of the Dads Army was starting to show shoots of major recovery. 

[rudiatemyhamster]

21 hours ago, LeftBack said:

Always had a soft spot for Berry but he was vilified by many. Did his job to best of ability. 

Remember Neil Berry scoring a belter against the hobos 👍

[rubyruby]

4 hours ago, Chaps said:

He was pish. Hibs goal gives him a bit leeway with the fans.

That celebration tho..running to them pretending to shoot them..total gangsta! 

[Franksluckypants]

Brellier rather than being over rated was way under rated! Best player I've seen in that position for Hearts in over 45 years attending Tynie. Steffano a close second, but more folk seemed to appreciate him. Chuck wasn't under rated as most of us saw the work he did in a mainly 3 man midfield.

[Chimp]

20 hours ago, BackOfTheNet said:

I’m going to assume you’ve read the rest of my comments on this thread since your reply as the answer to your question is there. But please note, saying something is overrated is not the same as saying they’re bad. It’s saying that the fanbase rates him higher than I think he should be.

 

He was rated highly because he played brilliantly in his role that contributed to our success that 05/06 season? There have been quite a few overrated players over the years but to suggest Brellier is one of them is nonsense

[BackOfTheNet]

26 minutes ago, Chimp said:

 

He was rated highly because he played brilliantly in his role that contributed to our success that 05/06 season? There have been quite a few overrated players over the years but to suggest Brellier is one of them is nonsense

Football is about opinions and you are entitled to yours. I’m saying he’s overrated because people hail him as if he was one of our best ever players or midfielders and I don’t agree with that sentiment, hence I feel he is rated over what he should be (or overrated as it were). He was a decent player who did the job he was asked well. But that team’s success was down to the team as a whole, but if we single out individuals he’s not going to be high on my list. The formation we played required a player like him, didn’t necessarily require him. Whereas to play as well as we did we may require a left back, but we required Fyssas to play at that level, Gordon, Skacel, Hartley. Hell, our forward positions rotated enough that sometimes it didn’t matter who was playing up top - I personally feel the same would be for Brellier if he wasn’t playing and we had a competent DM instead. That’s all I’m saying.

[Robbo-Jambo]

Neilson wants a wide man, centre back and possibly a striker. 

 

The most important signing this season will be that elusive central midfielder. 

 

We have been crying out for one for years. 

 

Let's hope he gets the right man and I think he will, however long it takes. 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 hour ago, Robbo-Jambo said:

Neilson wants a wide man, centre back and possibly a striker. 

 

The most important signing this season will be that elusive central midfielder. 

 

We have been crying out for one for years. 

 

Let's hope he gets the right man and I think he will, however long it takes. 

 

 

If Lee and Haring are playing we're already better in the centre imo. 

Irvine was also improving. 

 

Need at least 1 more tho, like you say. 

 

[Deevers]

Going back a while Dave Bowman was subjected to a fair amount of abuse.

[Lone Striker]

This is a great thread .... lots of names mentioned get you thinking about how you'd rate them, or at least their contribution to the team at the time.   All about opinions, as many posters have said.  Sometimes  Hearts fans are too quick to form a negative opinion of a player if they have a run of poor or even average performances.   Every midfielder seems to get compared to Cameron, Hartley, Skacel, which isn't fair to the defensive players.

 

 If you remember, Hartley took a fair amount of abuse for several months (his Hobo past may have provoked it too).  It was only when he started banging in some goals in 2004 that things changed and he ended up as a legendary midfielder for Hearts.

 

The abuse aimed at Cowie was ridiculous imo.  A decent player who was near the end of his career, but still a positive attacking influence in the team. 

 

I really liked John Millar in the early 90s, even when he was getting abuse for looking a bit lightweight and slow. But he was deceptively strong and effective - scored a good few goals too.   Did he not arrive from Leeds reserves ? 

 

As  others have mentioned, Neil Berry wasn't flashy & wasn't blessed with great footballing skills but was a perfect workhorse in the McDonald/Jardine era.    He wasn't worshipped in the way Robbo or JC was, but  definitely wasn't vilified.

 

Then you've got the "strollers" like Kingston &  Tziolis whose CV's were good, but played the game annoyingly way below their ability level.   Kitchen was a bit like that too, given that he was a USA international.    

 

Brellier was a bit of an enigma - limited ability, missed every 5th game through suspension, but hard as nails and probably a benefit to the attacking players around him.  I thought Adao had more footballing  ability than Brellier, but ended up being booked every game.

 

Let's hope  that Haring stays injury free, and re-captures the form he showed for the first few months of the 18-19 season (and 70 minutes of the Cup Final).  Maybe Lee will eventually come good too ?

 

 

[jambonian]

Just now, Lone Striker said:

This is a great thread .... lots of names mentioned get you thinking about how you'd rate them, or at least their contribution to the team at the time.   All about opinions, as many posters have said.  Sometimes  Hearts fans are too quick to form a negative opinion of a player if they have a run of poor or even average performances.   Every midfielder seems to get compared to Cameron, Hartley, Skacel, which isn't fair to the defensive players.

 

 If you remember, Hartley took a fair amount of abuse for several months (his Hobo past may have provoked it too).  It was only when he started banging in some goals in 2004 that things changed and he ended up as a legendary midfielder for Hearts.

HARTLEY'S INTERVIEW WITH SI FERRY ON YOUTUBE WAS EXCELLENT

 

The abuse aimed at Cowie was ridiculous imo.  A decent player who was near the end of his career, but still a positive attacking influence in the team.

HE TURNED OUT DECENT ENOUGH. STILL REMEMBER LEVEIN AFTER WE WERE PROMOTED SAYING THAT WE WON'T BE SIGNING ANYONE OVER 28. COWIE WAS 32

 

I really liked John Millar in the early 90s, even when he was getting abuse for looking a bit lightweight and slow. But he was deceptively strong and effective - scored a good few goals too.   Did he not arrive from Leeds reserves ? 

SURE MILLAR WAS IN THE HAMILTON TEAM WE HAMMERED 7-0 AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN ON LOAN FROM CHELSEA

 

As  others have mentioned, Neil Berry wasn't flashy & wasn't blessed with great footballing skills but was a perfect workhorse in the McDonald/Jardine era.    He wasn't worshipped in the way Robbo or JC was, but  definitely wasn't vilified.

 

Then you've got the "strollers" like Kingston &  Tziolis whose CV's were good, but played the game annoyingly way below their ability level.   Kitchen was a bit like that too, given that he was a USA international.    

 

Brellier was a bit of an enigma - limited ability, missed every 5th game through suspension, but hard as nails and probably a benefit to the attacking players around him.  I thought Adao had more footballing  ability than Brellier, but ended up being booked every game.

 

Let's hope  that Haring stays injury free, and re-captures the form he showed for the first few months of the 18-19 season (and 70 minutes of the Cup Final).  Maybe Lee will eventually come good too ?

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

20 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

He was better than average in a team that wasn't great.

 

Wish our midfielders could score now. 😢

 

 

The one that could chip in, Lee was rounded on. 😳

[Lone Striker]

41 minutes ago, jambonian said:

SURE MILLAR WAS IN THE HAMILTON TEAM WE HAMMERED 7-0 AND HE MAY HAVE BEEN ON LOAN FROM CHELSEA

 

Just checked .... he arrived from Blackburn, but you're right in saying he was on loan from Chelsea to Hamilton prior to that.  His stats say he scored 21 goals for us in 133 appearances - that's better than many strikers !! 

[Samuel Camazzola]

21 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

The last time we were in the Championship Gomis and Bauben ran the show and had the title won by the second game of the season. 

FTFY. 👍 

[jambonian]

Just now, Lone Striker said:

Just checked .... he arrived from Blackburn, but you're right in saying he was on loan from Chelsea to Hamilton prior to that.  His stats say he scored 21 goals for us in 133 appearances - that's better than many strikers !! 

 

It's not a bad return for someone who was able to play in a few positions including left-back. I liked Millar, quiet guy who just got on with his job and scored a few important goals. Out of the (i think) nine players Joe Jordan signed in two and a half years (imagine that, only NINE!), he was one of the better ones. Think he was used as part of the deal for us to get Colin Cameron from Raith as well. 

[Hibs Nil]

On 24/08/2020 at 01:14, Tasavallan said:

Many supporters do not understand the role of the defensive midfielder.  Break up the opposition's midfield, disrupt play, win the ball and pass it to a more creative colleague.

 

Brellier was a favourite of mine as was Tomascek and Gomes.  Perry Kitchen received dog's abuse on here.

 

Tomascek was outstanding but also somewhat vilified. Top class in my view.

[Bazzas right boot]

30 minutes ago, jambonian said:

 

It's not a bad return for someone who was able to play in a few positions including left-back. I liked Millar, quiet guy who just got on with his job and scored a few important goals. Out of the (i think) nine players Joe Jordan signed in two and a half years (imagine that, only NINE!), he was one of the better ones. Think he was used as part of the deal for us to get Colin Cameron from Raith as well. 

 

 

He was an average midfielder, but an effective one. 

Scored from midfield quite a lot, got stuck in. 

 

[SectionDJambo]

2 hours ago, Hibs Nil said:

 

Tomascek was outstanding but also somewhat vilified. Top class in my view.

I remember him being sent off, at Tannadice, for a second yellow, when he hadn't got the first yellow. Ref lied his arse off later, making out he only took the yellow card out, before the red, by mistake. He said the offense, an innocuous foul, was a straight red card offence.

[Sydney]

Neil Berry, Gary Mackay and especially Kenny Black all got loads of abuse at different times in their Hearts careers.  So did Brian Whittaker and Walter Kidd.  Yet those five were part of the greatest Hearts team of my life back in 85-86.

 

I could not stand Andy Watson in 1980s or Brian Hamilton in 1990s.   

 

I loved Dave McCreary when he played a few games for us in Joe Jordan era.

 

 

[MR INCREDIBLE]

On 24/08/2020 at 08:04, Fun Boaby said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30999175/warning-why-using-the-term-coloured-is-offensive

To be fair the BBC say it's offensive to go for a crap. 

[MR INCREDIBLE]

Can't believe nobody's mentioned the great Davie Kirkwood. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MR INCREDIBLE said:

To be fair the BBC say it's offensive to go for a crap. 

I was wrong. It isn't an offensive term. If it was it would have been removed by moderators 

 

2 hours ago, MR INCREDIBLE said:

Can't believe nobody's mentioned the great Davie Kirkwood. 

They have

[BervieJambo]

I’ll throw in a Scott Leitch - quietly effective for a couple of seasons and scored one or two important goals, but never really got the fans on board.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, BervieJambo said:

I’ll throw in a Scott Leitch - quietly effective for a couple of seasons and scored one or two important goals, but never really got the fans on board.

I thought he was good.  Remember him running the show at ER one day when we pumped the vermin yet again

[Hibs Nil]

19 hours ago, SectionDJambo said:

I remember him being sent off, at Tannadice, for a second yellow, when he hadn't got the first yellow. Ref lied his arse off later, making out he only took the yellow card out, before the red, by mistake. He said the offense, an innocuous foul, was a straight red card offence.

 

I spectacularly lost my shit in that moment!

[Dave McCreery's knee]

Gomis wasn’t vilified but he was massively under-rated by the Hearts support. He always looked for the ball, never hid and thats maybe why any mistakes stood out. I loved watching him play though and had great movement and passing. He was starting to lose any pace he had but his sending off by Collum for tackle on Scott Brown was shocking, when we were on top. Wish we’d got longer out of him, terrific player and strangely under-rated by our fans. 

[jambonian]

Just now, Dave McCreery's knee said:

Gomis wasn’t vilified but he was massively under-rated by the Hearts support. He always looked for the ball, never hid and thats maybe why any mistakes stood out. I loved watching him play though and had great movement and passing. He was starting to lose any pace he had but his sending off by Collum for tackle on Scott Brown was shocking, when we were on top. Wish we’d got longer out of him, terrific player and strangely under-rated by our fans. 

 

I remember at the time when i heard we'd signed Gomis and Bauben i was pretty happy with it. They did a great job at Dundee Utd and to get their experience in the Championship was good business. Shame Bauben ended up getting injured often. Strangest thing for me was when we brought Kitchen in and immediately sent Gomis out on loan to Motherwell. I remember thinking at the time that Kitchen seemed a pointless signing considering Gomis was there anyway.

[The White Cockade]

Davie Driftwood and Bobby Masterton

[Harry Potter]

On 24/08/2020 at 16:00, ToqueJambo said:

 

I don't remember that at all. From that era I always thought Kenny Black got the most stick out of the regulars, even though he did a solid job most games. And Andy Watson is still the definition of "crap footballer" for me. 

Was Black left footed or right, anyway could only use one, i always had a kenny black fan in front of me at games.🤔.