Wage Deferment

[Kiwidoug]

During this crisis, I understand a number of clubs have opted for wage deferment.  What does that actually mean?

 

Say Hibs are paying one of their superstars £3,000 per week.  Does that mean that he is currently earning nothing?  If not, what is he earning?  When does the deferment end and when does he get his back pay?

 

And with furlough, what's that all about?

[1971fozzy]

They will be on wage cuts with the balance to be paid at a later date when (presumably) they start getting the rats through the turnstiles.

Likely a long time away certainly not July. 
 

[Benny Factor]

I wonder how many clubs realise that they have to pay any deferred wages back by January...  and if they can't, they need to have a detailed discussion with every single affected player asking them if they can extend the payback.

[va va voom]

I think they are deferring part of their wage say 20% so in your example above said "superstar"" will earn £2400 a week and the £600 he is deferring each week will be paid to him in 2 lump sums. So if he defers for 10 weeks he will at a certain date get £6k. Although I think they have said they will get payments in June and December. Although I think this was based on football starting much sooner. It will be interesting to see if Hibs can keep to that commitment with little money coming through the doors.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Why not go and ask your pals on .net? You seem to be on there a lot. As we all know they are the foremost world experts in football finance. 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Seymour M Hersh

[1953]

58 minutes ago, va va voom said:

I think they are deferring part of their wage say 20% so in your example above said "superstar"" will earn £2400 a week and the £600 he is deferring each week will be paid to him in 2 lump sums. So if he defers for 10 weeks he will at a certain date get £6k. Although I think they have said they will get payments in June and December. Although I think this was based on football starting much sooner. It will be interesting to see if Hibs can keep to that commitment with little money coming through the doors.

My recollection is that the deferred cash will be paid in December 2020 and May 2021 so they have a bit time to save up, but I still come back to 'why shouldn't well paid footballers not take a pay cut like everybody else for doing nothing'? I'd still want our guys to take a pay cut for doing nothing even if we had unlimited amounts of money.

[joondalupjambo]

And presumably a lot of players on deferred payment agreements will have moved onto new clubs by the time they are due the cash to be paid.  In some instances a few lucky players may move to new clubs with perhaps a signing on fee and better wages then daftie Hibs for example still have to pay them more money, brilliant.  That was a fantastic idea by Dempster & co putting them on a scheme like that.  (I know in these difficult times signing on fees and higher wages might not be the norm, just highlighting what could happen).

[Last Laff]

1 hour ago, EarnockJambo said:

I wonder how many clubs realise that they have to pay any deferred wages back by January...  and if they can't, they need to have a detailed discussion with every single affected player asking them if they can extend the payback.

Can’t they just tell the players they will just use the article clause to release them if they don’t agree to extend the payback time?  

[The Old Tolbooth]

It basically means that it's a big black hole for clubs who go down this route, all you're doing is building up debt which has to be paid at a later date, but not too far in the future, once games start getting played again, which will very likely be behind closed doors, the players are going to want paid after going months without pay, good luck with that......NOT! 

[EIEIO]

Furlough is a UK govt scheme that pays companies staff 80 per cent of their wages up to a maximum of £2,500 per month from govt funds.

Edited May 13, 2020 by EIEIO
Spelling

[Locky]

1 minute ago, EIEIO said:

Furlough is a UK govt scheme that pays companies staff 80 per cent of their wages up to a maximum of £2,500 per month from govt funds.

Don't know how much that applies to players though, and any claim submitted should've been well received now. Money has been getting paid for a couple of weeks.

 

I took wage deferrals for players as 'we'll see you right once we get the SPFL pay-out'. I then had to try and explain that to a Hibs fan last week who was laughing at us for having the brass neck to make our players take wage cuts as it must mean we're going bust again. He then couldn't fathom how I said Hibs aren't in much of a better position writing IOU's and are theoretically in debt.

[Benny Factor]

27 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Can’t they just tell the players they will just use the article clause to release them if they don’t agree to extend the payback time?  

The point I'm making is that if we were somehow back playing football before the end of January, the clubs(under the rules) can't just assume that the players are ok with not being paid their deferred wages at that time. They have to get written consent from the players that they are happy with it.

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, EarnockJambo said:

The point I'm making is that if we were somehow back playing football before the end of January, the clubs(under the rules) can't just assume that the players are ok with not being paid their deferred wages at that time. They have to get written consent from the players that they are happy with it.

Their players probably won’t be happy being not paid up completely, just like ours aren’t on a wage cut just now.  If the alternative is being unemployed like we threatened our players I’m sure they would be more happy being employed. 

[martoon]

Rightly or wrongly I was under the impression they were deferring 50%. No matter what percentage it is, it's still cash Hibs are going to have to stump up at some point. Hopefully as a lump sum after months of no incomings.

 

Ann Budge and Hearts have taken a different approach and been heavily criticized. I don't care. We have done the correct and sensible thing and that decision will look even better when this is all over. 

[Nookie Bear]

I’m thinking that clubs will not be allowed to sign players until existing salaries are brought up to date. 

[EIEIO]

2 hours ago, Locky said:

Don't know how much that applies to players though, and any claim submitted should've been well received now. Money has been getting paid for a couple of weeks.

 

I took wage deferrals for players as 'we'll see you right once we get the SPFL pay-out'. I then had to try and explain that to a Hibs fan last week who was laughing at us for having the brass neck to make our players take wage cuts as it must mean we're going bust again. He then couldn't fathom how I said Hibs aren't in much of a better position writing IOU's and are theoretically in debt.

OP asked about furlough too.

Deferral is madness you could be paying 15 monthly wages in a 12 month period. Don't expect a Hibbie to understand it.

[JamboAl]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

I’m thinking that clubs will not be allowed to sign players until existing salaries are brought up to date. 

Good point.  They are football debts.

Somehow I think temporary measures will be introduced due to the likely numbers of unemployed players.  Depends, I suppose, on what Lawwell says.

[Samuel Camazzola]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I’m thinking that clubs will not be allowed to sign players until existing salaries are brought up to date. 

Hibs stated that no transfers would be made until all deferred payments were made. Basically confirming that huddies like Stevenson will be with them for longer! 😄 

[Locky]

2 hours ago, EIEIO said:

OP asked about furlough too.

Deferral is madness you could be paying 15 monthly wages in a 12 month period. Don't expect a Hibbie to understand it.

Ah, sorry, didn't read all of the OP's post.  

[wavydavy]

2 hours ago, JamboAl said:

Good point.  They are football debts.

Somehow I think temporary measures will be introduced due to the likely numbers of unemployed players.  Depends, I suppose, on what Lawwell says.

 

If they are able to cope then he will not give a monkies what happens unless of course it interferes with them buying or selling a player.

[JamboAl]

27 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

If they are able to cope then he will not give a monkies what happens unless of course it interferes with them buying or selling a player.

Tongue in cheek, Davy.

I was inferring that the league seems to be run for his benefit.

[Rods]

I think around June their will be a realisation that Football wont start again until September/October and behind closed doors. 

 

At this point Hibs will approach thier players to take a cut. It will be announced that they will do this and common sense will prevail.

 

Hibs.net and the hobos on twitter will call this idea fantastic and of course Hibs class and wonder why other teams did not think of it prior to that point.

 

Has Ron the con got security over everything or is it just the farm?

[wavydavy]

1 hour ago, JamboAl said:

Tongue in cheek, Davy.

I was inferring that the league seems to be run for his benefit.

 

No need for tongue in cheek Al the league is run for his benfit.

[Rods]

It seems the OP is popular on Hibs.net. Just been and had a wee look(yes I am bored) I think most of their topics are related to you guessed it us. There is one regarding Omeanga and a few of them saying Docherty is preferred. 
 

1) Do you think Rangers will deal with Hibs now? I doubt it
2) Back on original subject. You are not signing anyone while players are on deferred wages.

 

They are not the sharpest tools in the box are they. 

[Kiwidoug]

11 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Why not go and ask your pals on .net? You seem to be on there a lot. As we all know they are the foremost world experts in football finance. 

I would rather eat my own bottom than join any other club,'s forum.  Especially theirs.

 

[Kiwidoug]

I'm not much further on really but grateful for the replies.  It seems that like me, no one is absolutely clear on deferment.  Maybe it will vary from club to club.

 

Interesting if you can't sign players while you have deferment in place.

[Beast Boy]

Pretty sure Hibs were on record as saying they could afford to do it for three months. 
 

Tick-tock... 

[gashauskis9]

7 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I’m thinking that clubs will not be allowed to sign players until existing salaries are brought up to date. 

It’s a good point and I hope it’s the case.  Did the authorities not stop us bringing Rudi back when we we’re struggling in 2013?

[Nookie Bear]

26 minutes ago, Gashauskis9 said:

It’s a good point and I hope it’s the case.  Did the authorities not stop us bringing Rudi back when we we’re struggling in 2013?

It was in the papers a while back, relating to the English leagues, and cane from the PFA because the players didn’t trust the clubs not to buy players instead of paying  their deferred salary. 

[Meadows]

Fag packet accountancy but I reckon Hibs will defer roughly £240k for the period April to August . ( 5 months ) 

It’s not a horrendous amount as a stand alone debt BUT with five months overheads and other financial commitments it’s certainly not ideal . 

[Nookie Bear]

Would love for Ann to raise this publicly: suggest that all deferred salaries are paid before any signings are made.

[Rods]

Ron the con owns the Farm and the ticket office at the moment. How long will it be before it’s the stadium. Then it will be his bank on the front of the strips. 
 

Did Ron not also say they would have been running at a loss if it was not for the McGinn money? Who are they selling this year. 
 

A lot of overheads to be cut at Fester they are not exactly pushing for Europe either. This is just the begging for Hibs to be back to their natural mid to bottom of the table position. Crowds will start to dwindle. It may not happen soon but trouble is coming for them. Still Hertz are doon though. 

[Drumjambo]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Would love for Ann to raise this publicly: suggest that all deferred salaries are paid before any signings are made.

 

In the interests of fair play of course

[queensferryjambo]

10 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

I’m thinking that clubs will not be allowed to sign players until existing salaries are brought up to date. 

 

 

You know how the SPFL keeps on saying they just cannot keep changing rules?

 

Watch this space..............

[Benny Factor]

2 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

Would love for Ann to raise this publicly: suggest that all deferred salaries are paid before any signings are made.

^^^^ The pic i posted from the SPFL rules states they need to be paid back by the end of January.... 

[Byyy The Light]

More than happy to play the long game on this. My Hibs mates all quick to give it the deferment chat. 100% confident it will bite them on the arse, no football until Christmas please.

 

They have however sold about 8000 season tickets which will be helping them. It’s still kicking the can down the road though. 

[Beast Boy]

3 hours ago, Rods said:

Ron the con owns the Farm and the ticket office at the moment. How long will it be before it’s the stadium. Then it will be his bank on the front of the strips. 
 

Did Ron not also say they would have been running at a loss if it was not for the McGinn money? Who are they selling this year. 
 

A lot of overheads to be cut at Fester they are not exactly pushing for Europe either. This is just the begging for Hibs to be back to their natural mid to bottom of the table position. Crowds will start to dwindle. It may not happen soon but trouble is coming for them. Still Hertz are doon though. 

Actually, I think he’s already got a floating charge on the Stade de Makro too. 
 

The vermin will be told to 🐴⬆️ to pay back any money Ron fronts them. If they don’t, he’ll just take their properties and assets. I expect he’ll reanimate the carcass of HSL (RIP) as the repayment vehicle.

[Rooster20]

I think that for as long as football remains unplayable or without fans Hibs are one of the clubs in real danger. The decision to defer these wages is ludicrous IMO and reeks of arrogant shortsightedness. The fact is that we genuinely might not see fans at a football ground until 2021 and until that time happens all clubs will be haemorrhaging money, Hibs deferring wages is essentially adding an unnecessary debt. Assuming it's 250k that is 250k that Hibs will have to pay that we do not.

 

Hibs only saving grace right now is their season ticket sales but that will dry up eventually and from that point on they will have very little income. As monthly losses and debts increase old mate Ronnie will probably end up having to inject cash into the club, whether or not he will want to do that remains to be seen.

 

Compare that with HMFC and admittedly a lot of it is likely to be similar with regards to wages exceeding income but with a few crucial differences:

1. No wage deferral thus no 250k debt in the future, not a huge amount in the scheme of things nonetheless is indicative of the differences in financial capability between the boards, AB for all her faults is an excellent businesswoman and I am confident in her ability to see us through, can the same be said for Hibs???

2. We have the Foundation of Hearts, which no matter what will provide income to Hearts monthly and is an income stream Hibs do not and will not ever have. Whereas they will be forced to rely on the funds of a Peruvian businessman we have the known loyalty of the fans through the Foundation of Hearts.

3. Any potential court mandated payments to Hearts from the SPFL, no idea if we will get any funds but anything we get would be a huge bonus for us.

 

I could have completely misread the situation and this all un-researched opinion but if I was a hobo I'd be very worried.

[Pasquale for King]

So they deferred players wages,  between 20-50% and furloughed them too. Payments will be made for those wages that were deferred at the end of 2020 and in June 2021. They will not be signing any new players until the players wages go back to normal, which should be before they’re paid back.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-agree-wage-deferral-and-furlough-plans-staff-2528533

[Pasquale for King]

8 minutes ago, Rooster20 said:

I think that for as long as football remains unplayable or without fans Hibs are one of the clubs in real danger. The decision to defer these wages is ludicrous IMO and reeks of arrogant shortsightedness. The fact is that we genuinely might not see fans at a football ground until 2021 and until that time happens all clubs will be haemorrhaging money, Hibs deferring wages is essentially adding an unnecessary debt. Assuming it's 250k that is 250k that Hibs will have to pay that we do not.

 

Hibs only saving grace right now is their season ticket sales but that will dry up eventually and from that point on they will have very little income. As monthly losses and debts increase old mate Ronnie will probably end up having to inject cash into the club, whether or not he will want to do that remains to be seen.

 

Compare that with HMFC and admittedly a lot of it is likely to be similar with regards to wages exceeding income but with a few crucial differences:

1. No wage deferral thus no 250k debt in the future, not a huge amount in the scheme of things nonetheless is indicative of the differences in financial capability between the boards, AB for all her faults is an excellent businesswoman and I am confident in her ability to see us through, can the same be said for Hibs???

2. We have the Foundation of Hearts, which no matter what will provide income to Hearts monthly and is an income stream Hibs do not and will not ever have. Whereas they will be forced to rely on the funds of a Peruvian businessman we have the known loyalty of the fans through the Foundation of Hearts.

3. Any potential court mandated payments to Hearts from the SPFL, no idea if we will get any funds but anything we get would be a huge bonus for us.

 

I could have completely misread the situation and this all un-researched opinion but if I was a hobo I'd be very worried.

Agreed, I think they should still have money in the bank but as they still haven’t published last years accounts over 6 weeks too late who knows. 

[annushorribilis III]

27 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

So they deferred players wages,  between 20-50% and furloughed them too. Payments will be made for those wages that were deferred at the end of 2020 and in June 2021. They will not be signing any new players until the players wages go back to normal, which should be before they’re paid back.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-agree-wage-deferral-and-furlough-plans-staff-2528533

When they get their cash from the new TV deals.  And if they shift enough STs to support this model.

[JamboBoy]

I have said this previously than any clubs going down the deferment route are not dealing with the problem but are just kicking the can down the street. When you see the likes of Barca and Juve implementing, as we sensibly did, wage cuts it makes you wonder what the likes of Hibs and Aberdeen etc are thinking about. All they have done is gambled on the season starting ASAP and then see revenue coming into their coffers. A huge risk and one I personally believe is doomed to failure. I am also lead to believe that Hibs have only made their situation even more perilous by advising their players they will not sign any other players until their debt to them is fully paid. Dumb just got dumber or what? How you can make this sort of commitment when you don’t have either a tv or league sponsorship deal in place along with not knowing when paying customers will next pass through the turnstiles. TBH  I will not give two hoots about any of  them, particularly as I suspect in some cases they may well go to the wall on the back of it.
 

If these clubs are thinking there may be some sort of government bailout they are also being totally delusional. The Scottish Government itself does not have the funds to do so. If it did provide funds the fall out from doing so would be catastrophic for them. Our major Universities, who because of their greedy and skewed strategy of being totally overly dependent on non-Scots domiciled full fee paying students, will soon be going cap in hand themselves for funding, would for one have something to say about it. I think Education may rank a fair bit higher than football in the priorities of any right thinking society at any time never mind at the moment!
 

Ann Budge took absolute pelters for our reduction in wages route. I have a strong feeling many who did so, particularly those who were so vociferous about in the media, will have a huge amount of egg on their faces in the near future. HHGH

Edited May 14, 2020 by JamboBoy

[busby1985]

Clubs face another hurdle when the league is officially called. Clubs will have bonuses included in contracts, avoiding relegation, winning the league, top 6 bottom 6 etc etc. Rangers for example are due a monster bonus for their performances in Europe. Such a silly, silly route to go down by clubs. I would hate for clubs to go bust because of it.....................😂

[rip van tinkle]

On 13/05/2020 at 08:06, Kiwidoug said:

During this crisis, I understand a number of clubs have opted for wage deferment.  What does that actually mean?

 

Say Hibs are paying one of their superstars £3,000 per week.  Does that mean that he is currently earning nothing?  If not, what is he earning?  When does the deferment end and when does he get his back pay?

 

And with furlough, what's that all about?

My company (a multi national) has made us all take a 25% wage deferral. They have also mentioned that we are unlikely to get it back.

If Hibs can give their players this deferred money back when this is all over I’ll be very surprised and grudgingly impressed at how they have treated their employees 

[rip van tinkle]

21 hours ago, martoon said:

Rightly or wrongly I was under the impression they were deferring 50%. No matter what percentage it is, it's still cash Hibs are going to have to stump up at some point. Hopefully as a lump sum after months of no incomings.

 

Ann Budge and Hearts have taken a different approach and been heavily criticized. I don't care. We have done the correct and sensible thing and that decision will look even better when this is all over. 

I think most of the journeymen over at Fester Road (probably their whole defence) are More likely to be on around 5K a month, a 50% *deferral* would just mean the government would be paying 2.5k a month and hibs would be paying the other 2.5k.

 They won’t have many big earners over there, maybe Allan and Kamberi (docherty)

[EIEIO]

1 hour ago, rip van tinkle said:

My company (a multi national) has made us all take a 25% wage deferral. They have also mentioned that we are unlikely to get it back.

If Hibs can give their players this deferred money back when this is all over I’ll be very surprised and grudgingly impressed at how they have treated their employees 

If you're unlikely to get it back that's a cut not a deferral.  Hibs like Aberdeen will regret deferring rather than cutting wages.

[LarrysRightFoot]

Deferred wages could end up costing a lot of money.
 

Say £2,000 pw average wage and 20% being deferred = £400 a week.

 

£400 x 26 weeks (I’m guessing it’ll be at least a 6 month deferral) = £10,400

 

With a 20 man first team squad that = £208,000.

[rip van tinkle]

28 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

If you're unlikely to get it back that's a cut not a deferral.  Hibs like Aberdeen will regret deferring rather than cutting wages.

Yeah, doubt I’ll see it again. Fairly sure the Hibs players won’t see it again either

[Hans von Luck]

Ouch and with potentially no derby next season (est min £300k revenue drop), Hobos looking at min 500k drop in revenue next season.

 

#ticktock

Edited May 14, 2020 by Hans von Luck

[Pasquale for King]

9 hours ago, annushorribilis III said:

When they get their cash from the new TV deals.  And if they shift enough STs to support this model.

Yeah but there might be a hitch if the tv deal is affected with no games being played 😂