Should Hearts take legal action for being expelled from the top flight?

[annushorribilis III]

4 minutes ago, eezyrider said:

 

Precedent has shown that they are reluctant to get involved unless they it can be proven that National Law has been broken.

 

By all means point me to that national law because I have searched for it, in genuine hope, and haven't found it. They would look at it and it deem it an argument between clubs about the rules they had agreed to.

 

A claim to The Court of Sporting Arbitrations might get somewhere - indeed I saw in the press that clubs in other countries are considering this, if not I think compensation from the SPFL would be the best other bet. 

There is no "precedent".

In fact I provided a link to the Rangers case as a specific example - that was an internal dispute , not a matter of "national law". 

I've no idea what you mean by national law - criminal law ? 

 

Quite probably - as Geoff K pointed out already - likely be a civil action.

 

Perhaps - Rangers  used the courts and CAS...BUT CAS was used because of a very specific agreement that Rangers already had with the SFA  for a specific dispute (which is why I posted the link). 

 

Regardless, this can go to court if Hearts have the money,  and regardless of how poor (or not ) the strength of their case.

The court can decide whether the case has any merit and allow it to proceed under civil law. 

[CJGJ]

25 minutes ago, eezyrider said:

 

Precedent has shown that they are reluctant to get involved unless they it can be proven that National Law has been broken. By all means point me to that national law because I have searched for it, in genuine hope, and haven't found it. They would look at it and it deem it an argument between clubs about the rules they had agreed to.

 

A claim to The Court of Sporting Arbitrations might get somewhere - indeed I saw in the press that clubs in other countries are considering this, if not I think compensation from the SPFL would be the best other bet. 

We are lucky to have someone such as yourself on here to give us the details of these precedents you speak of.

 

JKB will await the list of precedents

 

 

[sinks]

Is our first stage not have to be an appeal to the SFA before any other action?

Was sure I read a statement from Petrie that he didn’t want to make any comment on plans to call leagues as they would be involved in any appeals issue.

 

[Voice of reason]

If Legal Action wasn’t possible then Neil Doncaster would have just said that rather than saying ‘Please don’t do it because it will cost your fellow clubs money’. He clearly knows it can happen and knows we might win as well. We must pursue this.

[annushorribilis III]

1 minute ago, sinks said:

Is our first stage not have to be an appeal to the SFA before any other action?

Was sure I read a statement from Petrie that he didn’t want to make any comment on plans to call leagues as they would be involved in any appeals issue.

 

I don't recall anything and ultimately we'd be appealing against a motion proposed by the SPFL board and then voted on by the member clubs ? 

[annushorribilis III]

2 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

If Legal Action wasn’t possible then Neil Doncaster would have just said that rather than saying ‘Please don’t do it because it will cost your fellow clubs money’. He clearly knows it can happen and knows we might win as well. We must pursue this.

Him  & McKenzie could be potentially put on the stand and win or lose, the SPFL/they  would possibly be be eviscerated by a decent lawyer.  IIRC Doncaster is a lawyer, he knows how this works. 

[sinks]

2 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

I don't recall anything and ultimately we'd be appealing against a motion proposed by the SPFL board and then voted on by the member clubs ? 

Yes but does the SPFL not run under the auspices of SFA?

Its the SFA that are members of UEFA and nominate clubs for champs league etc.

I may  be 100% wrong but it’s just something I thought I’d read somewhere

[annushorribilis III]

1 minute ago, sinks said:

Yes but does the SPFL not run under the auspices of SFA?

Its the SFA that are members of UEFA and nominate clubs for champs league etc.

I may  be 100% wrong but it’s just something I thought I’d read somewhere

They have very different objectives & scope. 

I don't really know what the interaction between the two is or what the difference is in their jurisdiction so I'll say no more. 

[colinmaroon]

3 hours ago, dc-jambo said:

no I’m not a lawyer. But I have had extensive experience, at work, of measuring their advice. Contrary to popular belief, the law isn’t some magical elixir. The courts have been consistent in rejecting involvement in sporting disputes. I would really like to hear why this case should be any different 

 

Because it is not a "sporting" dispute.  It would be case of interpreting improper and selective application, or non-application, of the existing rules.

 

The rules were bent to allow The Rangers as a new club to come straight into what is the SPFL when they didn't have the necessary time in existence as a club nor the mandatory accounts.

 

The rules are being bent to expel teams from their respective leagues.

 

Ipso factor, do the rules mean anything as they stand?

 

The season should be declared null and void, full stop, if it cant be played out.

 

[julienbrellier]

5 hours ago, wallace_mercer said:

I see 48 people have voted no !

 

are they non hearts fans ??

 

having to play in the champ next season could have serious long term implications.

 

also you can’t relegate a team when there’s 20% of games left to play

 

I’m shocked people would accept this situation that is about to be forced upon us 

 

 

wouldnt worry about it mate they are all hibs fans. best ignored.

[Thomaso]

45 minutes ago, Voice of reason said:

If Legal Action wasn’t possible then Neil Doncaster would have just said that rather than saying ‘Please don’t do it because it will cost your fellow clubs money’. He clearly knows it can happen and knows we might win as well. We must pursue this.

Every day more Clubs are coming forward with claims of bullying, coercion, manipulation and lies!

Take it to court and we will have plenty of witnesses!

The SPFL and their cronies are trying to shaft Hearts - let’s shaft them!!

[Thomaso]

46 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

I don't recall anything and ultimately we'd be appealing against a motion proposed by the SPFL board and then voted on by the member clubs ? 

No we will be appealing against the bullying, manipulation, threats and lies perpetrated by the SPFL Board and their cronies!

[Beast Boy]

55 minutes ago, sinks said:

Yes but does the SPFL not run under the auspices of SFA?

Its the SFA that are members of UEFA and nominate clubs for champs league etc.

I may  be 100% wrong but it’s just something I thought I’d read somewhere

 

51 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

They have very different objectives & scope. 

I don't really know what the interaction between the two is or what the difference is in their jurisdiction so I'll say no more. 

Pete has all that covered:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/43016452

[Beast Boy]

Anyone expecting the SFA to go against Lawwell and his puppets Doncaster, MacLennan and McKenzie is sadly going to be very disappointed.

[rogers]

1 hour ago, sinks said:

Is our first stage not have to be an appeal to the SFA before any other action?

Was sure I read a statement from Petrie that he didn’t want to make any comment on plans to call leagues as they would be involved in any appeals issue.

 

That's the route you are supposed to go through on football matters.. but lawyers might decide this is just more than a football matter but one way or another it's very likely this will end up in the courts. Personally, I believe an injunction should be lodged immediately to halt the calling of the SPL season and thus demoting Hearts. Immediately meaning tomorrow morning.

[rogers]

13 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Anyone expecting the SFA to go against Lawwell and his puppets Doncaster, MacLennan and McKenzie is sadly going to be very disappointed.

I don't expect it..that's why, in my view, Hearts have to go the injunction route right now.

[rogers]

38 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Every day more Clubs are coming forward with claims of bullying, coercion, manipulation and lies!

Take it to court and we will have plenty of witnesses!

The SPFL and their cronies are trying to shaft Hearts - let’s shaft them!!

You are absolutely correct...but not sure shafting anyone, just pursuing our grievances and let the net catch all who are behind this atrocity.

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, sinks said:

Is our first stage not have to be an appeal to the SFA before any other action?

Was sure I read a statement from Petrie that he didn’t want to make any comment on plans to call leagues as they would be involved in any appeals issue.

 

Appeal to Petrie??? 😂

[Pasquale for King]

34 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Appeal to Petrie??? 😂

The man that thinks that 50k for the scup semi final at Murrayfield is a better idea than at Hampden if social distancing is still in place 🤔🤷🏾‍♂️? 

[Ethan Hunt]

3 hours ago, Voice of reason said:

If Legal Action wasn’t possible then Neil Doncaster would have just said that rather than saying ‘Please don’t do it because it will cost your fellow clubs money’. He clearly knows it can happen and knows we might win as well. We must pursue this.

This. There is legal action all day long and every day after that.

 

The SPFL are going to court regardless of whether we take them there. Rangers smell blood and want a kill. Doncaster cannot survive this. It’s only a matter of time before he gets a tap on the shoulder and is handed his coat.

[GinRummy]

7 hours ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Appeal to Petrie??? 😂

Apparently the Partick boy is on the SFA board as well. I had the same response as you the other day. 

[milky_26]

11 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Apparently the Partick boy is on the SFA board as well. I had the same response as you the other day. 

doncaster is also on the sfa board

[Beast Boy]

Just now, milky_26 said:

doncaster is also on the sfa board

Yes, Lawwell’s man. A very able guy.

[GinRummy]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

doncaster is also on the sfa board

😟

[comradejambo]

Hearts have to challenge this. Whether successful or not (and it sounds like we have a very good chance of success). By challenging this through the legal route, I believe this will galvanise a previously divided and disillusioned support massively. Just looking at the current backing in this poll (over 93%) illustrates an almost universal appetite to right the wrongdoings inflicted upon is. We are backing what is right!!! I look forward to continuing to back our club. At home, through donations and now the ‘away days’ from Tynecastle. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by comradejambo

[NEWSTAND]

2 minutes ago, comradejambo said:

Hearts have to challenge this. Whether successful or not (and it sounds like we have a very good chance of success). By challenging this through the legal route, I believe this will galvanise a previously divided and disillusioned support massively. Just looking at the current backing in this poll (over 93%) illustrates an almost universal appetite to right the wrongdoings inflicted upon is. We are backing what is right!!! I look forward to continuing to back our club. At home, through donations and now the ‘away days’ from Tynecastle. 

Spot on with this post. The facts are this entire mess comes about by the fact that the spl are in fact so useless at their job and have contributed massively to the demise of Scottish football (other than one club who rule over everyone and we all know who they are). The joke is that these idiots genuinely believe they can get away with it and especially Doncaster who has to resign or be fired due to a number of big mistakes and there is no turning back for him .As to hearts the club I love the spl and other clubs  have made a huge mistake in their dealings with us and hearts supporters have long memories and are galvanizing to find the best way to make sure that all those who voted against us will pay in the pocket. We will survive this as foh is solid, however can these wee clubs survive I very much doubt it. The time to strike is now with a legal challenge to call the spl out as it’s long overdue as the powers that run Scottish football think hearts will just roll over here.  I sincerely hope that we don’t as the majority of the support will rally around the action.

[JAMBO _MOBY]

11 minutes ago, comradejambo said:

Hearts have to challenge this. Whether successful or not (and it sounds like we have a very good chance of success). By challenging this through the legal route, I believe this will galvanise a previously divided and disillusioned support massively. Just looking at the current backing in this poll (over 93%) illustrates an almost universal appetite to right the wrongdoings inflicted upon is. We are backing what is right!!! I look forward to continuing to back our club. At home, through donations and now the ‘away days’ from Tynecastle. 

Well said.  This is something 95% or more of the support will get behind, I thought the Leslie Deans interview on sportsound was great and enjoyed hearing someone with a bit of fight and passion sticking up for our club.  Nice little touch from him to point out that we could have also banked on the cup final money as we "habitually beat Hibs" 😂  

[Thomaso]

3 hours ago, milky_26 said:

doncaster is also on the sfa board

So basically any appeal on Doncaster’s behaviour will be heard by.........wait for it.......Doncaster!

Only in Scottish football.

[davemclaren]

4 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

So basically any appeal on Doncaster’s behaviour will be heard by.........wait for it.......Doncaster!

Only in Scottish football.

I would think he would be required to be absent from that due to a possible conflict of interest. 

[ri Alban]

14 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

 

You're right. Isn't it funny how I listened to Les Deans differently to you though? I actually think you want us to accept this to prove a point about Budge.

LD also said, if you ask 6 lawyers, you will get 6 different answers.

Too much money and the courts are fecked at the moment.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, ri Alban said:

LD also said, if you ask 6 lawyers, you will get 6 different answers.

Too much money and the courts are fecked at the moment.

Even better. We start proceedings, get money frozen and then it gets held up.

[ri Alban]

1 minute ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Even better. We start proceedings, get money frozen and then it gets held up.

If that's what you think. 👍 It's shite what's happening and they should reconstruct. Tho we're bottom and we've been utter shite. 

[IgnatiusReilly]

14 hours ago, eezyrider said:

 

Precedent has shown that they are reluctant to get involved unless they it can be proven that National Law has been broken. By all means point me to that national law because I have searched for it, in genuine hope, and haven't found it. They would look at it and it deem it an argument between clubs about the rules they had agreed to.

 

A claim to The Court of Sporting Arbitrations might get somewhere - indeed I saw in the press that clubs in other countries are considering this, if not I think compensation from the SPFL would be the best other bet. 

 

Companies Act 2006. It's not about a club and its rules, it's about the board of a limited company having breached its duties to the shareholders (the clubs). Mostly around the nondisclosure of pertinent information. 

 

The question of the remedies that would be available to the court is a different one, but as a minimum the original vote would be struck. In my view, if a court found that was the case, the position of the SPFL board becomes untenable. Where that would lead, who knows. In my view, if that were to be pursued then the time to do it was immediately after the vote, it's much more difficult in terms of remedies and consequences now. 

[colinmaroon]

3 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I would think he would be required to be absent from that due to a definite conflict of interest. 

 

 

Sorted that!

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, IgnatiusReilly said:

 

Companies Act 2006. It's not about a club and its rules, it's about the board of a limited company having breached its duties to the shareholders (the clubs). Mostly around the nondisclosure of pertinent information. 

 

The question of the remedies that would be available to the court is a different one, but as a minimum the original vote would be struck. In my view, if a court found that was the case, the position of the SPFL board becomes untenable. Where that would lead, who knows. In my view, if that were to be pursued then the time to do it was immediately after the vote, it's much more difficult in terms of remedies and consequences now. 

 

Correct, there's a difference between sporting disputes and the laws of the land being broken. 

We've seen Sheffield United chase West Ham through the courts after the Tevez and Mascherano stuff, they got a 9 figure payout and there were no sanctions for them or their governing body for going over the head of the sporting authorities.

[Thomaso]

7 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I would think he would be required to be absent from that due to a possible conflict of interest. 

Ya think Dave? 

[davemclaren]

Just now, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Ya think Dave? 

😂😂

[GinRummy]

8 hours ago, davemclaren said:

I would think he would be required to be absent from that due to a possible conflict of interest. 

Could he not just switch seats during it. 

[ArabJambo]

I voted yes, but only if competent legal advice is that there is a very high chance of success.

[Ex member of the SaS]

On 11/05/2020 at 11:53, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

So basically any appeal on Doncaster’s behaviour will be heard by.........wait for it.......Doncaster!

Only in Scottish football.

No not just football. In my previous employment you had to complain to the officer you had a complaint against ( giving him all relevant info ) giving him time to concoct an excuse. He has three weeks to reply. If you were not happy with his reply you took it to the next officer up the line and he had a couple of months and so on. By the time the first officer had replied so much more had happened the whole process fell apart.

[jock _turd]

16 hours ago, GinRummy said:

Could he not just switch seats during it. 

 

Or just wear a different hat than he usually does

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

No not just football. In my previous employment you had to complain to the officer you had a complaint against ( giving him all relevant info ) giving him time to concoct an excuse. He has three weeks to reply. If you were not happy with his reply you took it to the next officer up the line and he had a couple of months and so on. By the time the first officer had replied so much more had happened the whole process fell apart.

and if you were not happy with the way you were being dealt with by the company you could easily take it to an external industrial tribunal.

That is what Hearts are asking for - an external proper investigation not by the SPFL or anyone they appointed.

[jr ewing]

13 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

and if you were not happy with the way you were being dealt with by the company you could easily take it to an external industrial tribunal.

That is what Hearts are asking for - an external proper investigation not by the SPFL or anyone they appointed.

3k - 5k for too legal advice is a no brainer. 

[Thomaso]

2 hours ago, jr ewing said:

3k - 5k for too legal advice is a no brainer. 

Going to an employment tribunal is free of charge to the complainant.

[queensferryjambo]

SPFL basically saying they are unfazed by any legal action presumably because they can't see themselves losing in court.

 

OR

 

They are trying to bluff prior to any legal action.

[B.S.]

Is there not a company/commercial law that has been broken?  Ie Hearts share price is affected by an unfair change to the rules part way through a competition.  A rule change made by others who have acted together to benefit from the change?

very similar to the celtic res 12 where they make the case that rangers bending of the rules damaged their share price.

[mitch41]

Ok let’s get started with a committee to start this legal case, 

a fan, a solicitor, a QC, Our owner, Our Treasurer, a fundraiser, a politician, an ex League official, a FOH Director.and a Chairperson.

If everyone pulls together Hearts and the fans will get justice and win the day.

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

10 minutes ago, mitch41 said:

Ok let’s get started with a committee to start this legal case, 

a fan, a solicitor, a QC, Our owner, Our Treasurer, a fundraiser, a politician, an ex League official, a FOH Director.and a Chairperson.

If everyone pulls together Hearts and the fans will get justice and win the day.

 

Not sure we will win the day but it will at least guarantee some pride

[Ex member of the SaS]

Wrote this earlier and it didn't post for some reason ( maybe it did and I missed it )

 

First off, If we can get Sevco and Aberdeen and us to threaten withdrawing from the league the TV deal would implode. They demand 4 of games and with Sevco out of the league they would never allow such a large payment to air the rest. ( this could be just a threat at this time ) 

This would seriously put pressure on the rest to change their minds.

 

Secondly some have suggested only the Premiership will be playing games next season so maybe we should be making it clear they need us to help fight to get games played ( something we won't do if they continue to try and shaft us.)

 

Thirdly , FoH should produce a statement saying fans have contacted them, saying we will not be requesting tickets for away games ( should the Championship restart ) and any Hearts fans that do attend will not be buying anything within the ground.

Make it clear their self interest vote will not benefit them financially so they had better think again if they want our support in the future. 

[Brighton Jambo]

As others have said above the fact that Doncaster is almost pleading that legal action would negatively impact other clubs makes me even more desperate that we pursue it down every legal avenue available.

 

i hope it holdS the whole thing up long enough to really shaft a few of them.  I’m feeling proper vindictive now let’s cause as much pain as we can.