Pay During a Period of Force Majeure

[JohnB]

Lots of debate on here about clubs going to the wall due to the Coronavirus situation, particularly the ability of some (most) to keep their heads above water due to lack of matchday income.

No-one appears to be wanting to grasp the nettle and call out ridiculously high pay for players in particular as being the main case of the current angst.

What should clubs be paying players in the current situation - especially when so many ordinary joe-soaps out there in the real world unable to work because of illness, find themselves unable to even claim the pittance that is benefit handouts. 

I think they should be paid nothing other than a basic retainer and that the whole idea of salaries of multiple thousands should at least be shelved until things return to normal. One thing I should make clear is that I would be totally against any resources from the Foundation being used for wages/salaries. 

What does everyone else feel?

Edited March 15, 2020 by JohnB

[gashauskis9]

A retainer would be a good idea,  with the big earners subsidising the lower earners.   I’d like to think that most players, who are professionally minded, will be doing this off their own back.  I can imagine Naisy would be right behind this, given the community work he’s involved in.  

[Jarhead]

If the club has no income we may HAVE to divert FoH money but I do understand why not everyone may be comfortable with that. 

[ramrod]

They shouldn't be getting appearance money or win bonuses , so they should be out of pocket . 

[Kiwidoug]

Don't have an answer for the OP but I am really starting to wonder if this will all work out for the better in Scottish football in the long term.

[Hood09]

Only hickey should get his pay, rest can bolt, done nothing all season effectively cheated the fans. About time they gave back

 

 

[Kidd’s Boots]

Given the vast difference in salaries, I would hope that the board are looking at the clubs other employees in administration, ground staff and even the younger pros on lesser contracts and doing the right thing by making sure we make sure these people are the least impacted. These are the ones that will be most affected if weekly pay is reduced due to income deficits. The first team could certainly accure some brownie points from me if a selfless attitude was adopted during this tricky time.

[Italian Lambretta]

17 minutes ago, Hood09 said:

Only hickey should get his pay, rest can bolt, done nothing all season effectively cheated the fans. About time they gave back

 

 

Maybe Sean Clare will get a wage rise. Poor lad has had so much shit to deal with this season. 😉

[upgotheheads]

44 minutes ago, JohnB said:

Lots of debate on here about clubs going to the wall due to the Coronavirus situation, particularly the ability of some (most) to keep their heads above water due to lack of matchday income.

No-one appears to be wanting to grasp the nettle and call out ridiculously high pay for players in particular as being the main case of the current angst.

What should clubs be paying players in the current situation - especially when so many ordinary joe-soaps out there in the real world unable to work because of illness, find themselves unable to even claim the pittance that is benefit handouts. 

I think they should be paid nothing other than a basic retainer and that the whole idea of salaries of multiple thousands should at least be shelved until things return to normal. One thing I should make clear is that I would be totally against any resources from the Foundation being used for wages/salaries. 

What does everyone else feel?

 

I don't think anyone at Hearts, with possibly a couple of exceptions, will be on unreasonable amounts. If our average salary is a bit over 100k then most of them will be well under that.

Even our best squad players will be getting nowhere near Naismith's pay. Taking for example Damour,  he looks p15h most of the time but nobody on this forum could get close to his ability as s player.

Edited March 15, 2020 by upgotheheads

[kila]

40 minutes ago, Jarhead said:

If the club has no income we may HAVE to divert FoH money but I do understand why not everyone may be comfortable with that. 

 

In the meantime, Ryan Stevenson donating his wage to his Stranraer club:

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/coronavirus-scotland-ryan-stevenson-former-hearts-striker-offers-donate-wages-stranraer-2451334

 

 

[Jarhead]

8 minutes ago, kila said:

 

In the meantime, Ryan Stevenson donating his wage to his Stranraer club:

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/coronavirus-scotland-ryan-stevenson-former-hearts-striker-offers-donate-wages-stranraer-2451334

 

 

I also think there is merit in Kidds Boots post that some players may need to take a “voluntary deferment “ on some of their wages. 

[buzzbomb]

Average wage I’m sure I read as £137.5K, which Is incredible if you consider hickey, Irving, Moore, Henderson, on sweeties. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by buzzbomb

[JJ93]

They have contracts. They should and will be honoured.

 

The 'they are paid too much' nonsense can GTF.

[1971fozzy]

1 hour ago, Jarhead said:

If the club has no income we may HAVE to divert FoH money but I do understand why not everyone may be comfortable with that. 

I think it could come to this

[Victorian]

4 minutes ago, JJ93 said:

They have contracts. They should and will be honoured.

 

The 'they are paid too much' nonsense can GTF.

 

Not if force majeure features and applies in their contracts.

[JimmyCant]

As a fan base it even as a forum we could do our bit here

 

pick a small club that needs and deserves help, buy a £10 ticket for a ‘virtual’ match at their ground. If a mere 3 thousand of us did that it could potentially keep a club afloat till we get through this

[jambocub]

1 hour ago, JohnB said:

Lots of debate on here about clubs going to the wall due to the Coronavirus situation, particularly the ability of some (most) to keep their heads above water due to lack of matchday income.

No-one appears to be wanting to grasp the nettle and call out ridiculously high pay for players in particular as being the main case of the current angst.

What should clubs be paying players in the current situation - especially when so many ordinary joe-soaps out there in the real world unable to work because of illness, find themselves unable to even claim the pittance that is benefit handouts. 

I think they should be paid nothing other than a basic retainer and that the whole idea of salaries of multiple thousands should at least be shelved until things return to normal. One thing I should make clear is that I would be totally against any resources from the Foundation being used for wages/salaries. 

What does everyone else feel?

Players should be treated like all other employees from clubs,unless stated otherwise in their contract

 

If it comes to all employees on ssp then so be it . 

Reality is for players they'll soon find out how much /good their agents are when s**t hits fan

[sac]

Scottish Rugby have stumped up half a million to help rugby clubs during this difficult period.

Wonder how much the SFA will provide?

Edited March 15, 2020 by sac
Spelling

[obua]

27 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

Lovely idea but I’ll be making sure Hearts are ok first. 
 

We’ve got a pretty large wage bill although the club will still be receiving income each month from the credit company for season tickets taken out on finance. 
 

Unless benefactors/budge/SPFL prize money ponies up we may have to divert FOH monthly payments to help with wages.

Credit card companies won’t pay out on unplayed games as they can be claimed for money back.

[Byyy The Light]

Its all relative and in football terms most players don’t make a lot of money these days. The vast majority will need to get a job after their careers are finished.

 

The players will all have families, commitments etc they have to maintain. Same as we all do. Let’s not kid on these guys are making thousands upon thousands a week. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Byyy The Light

[buzzbomb]

1 hour ago, BarneyBattles said:

That’s £137.5 million. Big team😀

😄 I edited it but you musta been like a ninja 

[Romulus]

Surely we can terminate loan deals and send back to parent clubs at some point soon? Assuming that we pay wages towards them but not likely to be any football until the deals are up anyway. Sure we will find out more soon. 

[JimmyCant]

1 hour ago, BarneyBattles said:

Lovely idea but I’ll be making sure Hearts are ok first. 
 

We’ve got a pretty large wage bill although the club will still be receiving income each month from the credit company for season tickets taken out on finance. 
 

Unless benefactors/budge/SPFL prize money ponies up we may have to divert FOH monthly payments to help with wages.

I’d assume that very few if any season ticket holders would be asking for a refund  so that will help. Still missing quite a bit of match day income and event income and merchandise income. Prize money might be deducted by a percentage of course but at the end of the day we’ll be okay. 
 

some wee clubs will have feck all coming in though and I remember how quite a few helped us when we needed it most

[gowestjambo]

I think all pay should be performance related, after all that would seem fair.......

 

That should mean a weekly wage bill for the club as a total of around £4.50.

[Cruyff]

I think with full time contracts, players are paid weekly or monthly while they are under contract  regardless of whether they are playing or not until their contract ends. 

 

They get paid throughout the summer anyway.

 

Obviously many of our players will have bonuses attached to their contracts such as appearance money for example. 

 

For part timers it may be a different case scenario. 

 

I think Force Majeaure would only come into Football contracts, If for example there was a war and football was suspended indefinitely. As things stand, football will resume at some point. 

 

As for Sponsors such as William Hill for the Scottish Cup, they may claim that they do not have to pay up for any prize money etc.. Due to the competition being cancelled or voided. 

 

It works for different things. 

[Mr Benn]

2 hours ago, sac said:

Scottish Rugby have stumped up half a million to help rugby clubs during this difficult period.

Wonder how much the SFA will provide?

 

I'm sure Rangers and Celtic will be well looked after. 

[JohnB]

19 minutes ago, Cruyff said:

I think with full time contracts, players are paid weekly or monthly while they are under contract  regardless of whether they are playing or not until their contract ends. 

 

They get paid throughout the summer anyway.

 

Obviously many of our players will have bonuses attached to their contracts such as appearance money for example. 

 

For part timers it may be a different case scenario. 

 

I think Force Majeaure would only come into Football contracts, If for example there was a war and football was suspended indefinitely. As things stand, football will resume at some point. 

 

As for Sponsors such as William Hill for the Scottish Cup, they may claim that they do not have to pay up for any prize money etc.. Due to the competition being cancelled or voided. 

 

It works for different things. 

 

I take it you don't regard this as a war? We're already talking about losing more people to this virus than died in the last world war!

[Cruyff]

8 minutes ago, JohnB said:

 

I take it you don't regard this as a war? We're already talking about losing more people to this virus than died in the last world war!

I'd regard a War as a War tbh. A global conflict for example has no clear end point.

 

As we have seen in China, it will go away if the right measures are taken. Therefore, it is not a permanent thing and normal service will resume at some point in the future, perhaps months from now. 

[Phage]

2 hours ago, obua said:

Credit card companies won’t pay out on unplayed games as they can be claimed for money back.

This effects Rangers it is clear by there accounts that the finance companys pays them only when a fixture is completed 

[John Gentleman]

3 hours ago, JimmyCant said:

As a fan base it even as a forum we could do our bit here

 

pick a small club that needs and deserves help, buy a £10 ticket for a ‘virtual’ match at their ground. If a mere 3 thousand of us did that it could potentially keep a club afloat till we get through this

Not a bad idea. The problem is, in a short space of time, potential donators may not be earning anything themselves what with lay-offs, retrenchments etc.

This is turning real ugly.

[Cruyff]

27 minutes ago, JohnB said:

 

I take it you don't regard this as a war? We're already talking about losing more people to this virus than died in the last world war!

I'd add though John, if this lasts into the start of next season and perhaps by Christmas 2020 we find ourselves still under this pandemic, then I think there's a real possibility that Football next season is completely void and therefore there would be a just reason for all football contracts to be cancelled by force majeure. 

 

As things stand at the moment, this is merely a postponement. 

[JimmyCant]

2 minutes ago, John Gentleman said:

Not a bad idea. The problem is, in a short space of time, potential donators may not be earning anything themselves what with lay-offs, retrenchments etc.

This is turning real ugly.

Right enough . We’ve a meeting at work tomorrow (tourist industry) the cancellation rates for the city for the next 3 months are through the roof and were expecting hotel temporary closures and redundancies as a result. Our head office will be shutting down in the next two weeks and the management team will all be home working which is fine by me as a manager but pretty shit for the lower level staff. Loads of jobs will be lost in the sector if this carries  on through the summer and the festival being cancelled would be a game changer for everyone. It’ll put football into perspective that’s for sure.

[Dagger Is Back]

2 hours ago, sac said:

Scottish Rugby have stumped up half a million to help rugby clubs during this difficult period.

Wonder how much the SFA will provide?

Authorities were quoted last week as saying there is no extra cash available.

 

Everything that is earned is invested in the game apparently 

[fabienleclerq]

7 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

 

I don't think anyone at Hearts, with possibly a couple of exceptions, will be on unreasonable amounts. If our average salary is a bit over 100k then most of them will be well under that.

Even our best squad players will be getting nowhere near Naismith's pay. Taking for example Damour,  he looks p15h most of the time but nobody on this forum could get close to his ability as s player.

 

I reckon my ma would run rings around Damour in  a Central midfield battle. 

[JohnB]

3 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I'd add though John, if this lasts into the start of next season and perhaps by Christmas 2020 we find ourselves still under this pandemic, then I think there's a real possibility that Football next season is completely void and therefore there would be a just reason for all football contracts to be cancelled by force majeure. 

 

As things stand at the moment, this is merely a postponement. 

 

I take on board your point of view mate -  I'm maybe overreacting due to being over 70 with serious underlying health problems. Amazing how being a prime candidate for the chop can affect your outlook.

Take care.

[Saint Jambo]

8 hours ago, Dagger Is Back said:

Authorities were quoted last week as saying there is no extra cash available.

 

Everything that is earned is invested in the game apparently 

 

That was the SPFL rather than the SFA.

 

But I don't think the SFA are a cash rich organisation either, especially having committed to buying Hampden. They will also lose income due to being unable to host Scotland games or the Scottish Cup semis and final during this period.

 

The number and size of clubs rugby are dealing with makes setting up a fund easier for the SRU. Football has more clubs and some of them are likely to run up loses in hundreds of thousands and potentially millions.

[Pasquale for King]

Uefa might help by paying the tv money earlier than September as it normally does , it’s not a fortune but it would help most clubs get by.

[Saint Jambo]

11 hours ago, BarneyBattles said:

Unless benefactors/budge/SPFL prize money ponies up we may have to divert FOH monthly payments to help with wages.

 

The last FOH payment of the loan was confirmed on 4 Feb. My understanding was that just left a payment for the shares, which I think was only likely to require one or two months of donations. After that all FOH money is due to go to the club as non-ringfenced income. That means it won't be a case of diverting FOH funds to pay wages. While it will be a timely boost to the income and more reliable at a time like this than gate receipts, it isn't unexpected income.

[Saint Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Uefa might help by paying the tv money earlier than September as it normally does , it’s not a fortune but it would help most clubs get by.

 

Not sure what kind of reserves UEFA hold, but can't imagine TV companies will be rushing to handover money to UEFA for games that aren't being played. UEFA will also have significant unexpected costs and loss of income if they postpone the Euros.

 

You might be right and they might be in a position to help out clubs and associations but they do have their own issues to deal with too.

[graygo]

12 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

 

I don't think anyone at Hearts, with possibly a couple of exceptions, will be on unreasonable amounts. If our average salary is a bit over 100k then most of them will be well under that.

Even our best squad players will be getting nowhere near Naismith's pay. Taking for example Damour,  he looks p15h most of the time but nobody on this forum could get close to his ability as s player.

 

Doesn't matter how many get below or over the average salary, the average is just that, the average. Take that number and multiply it by the number of staff and that is our playing wage bill.

[bairdy]

10 hours ago, gowestjambo said:

I think all pay should be performance related, after all that would seem fair.......

 

That should mean a weekly wage bill for the club as a total of around £4.50.

That much ?😵

[Big Slim Stylee]

14 hours ago, JohnB said:

Lots of debate on here about clubs going to the wall due to the Coronavirus situation, particularly the ability of some (most) to keep their heads above water due to lack of matchday income.

No-one appears to be wanting to grasp the nettle and call out ridiculously high pay for players in particular as being the main case of the current angst.

What should clubs be paying players in the current situation - especially when so many ordinary joe-soaps out there in the real world unable to work because of illness, find themselves unable to even claim the pittance that is benefit handouts. 

I think they should be paid nothing other than a basic retainer and that the whole idea of salaries of multiple thousands should at least be shelved until things return to normal. One thing I should make clear is that I would be totally against any resources from the Foundation being used for wages/salaries. 

What does everyone else feel?

 

I don’t think their salaries are ridiculously high. It’s the going rate. Sure the Players Union will be involved in talks but see no reason why they should just go “well I’m being paid far too much so I’ll just give it all back.” Personal choice will undoubtedly play a part in what help some of the better paid decide to do.

 

No problem with any FOH funds being used for whatever the Club decides is best.

[Kidd’s Boots]

I’d like to think that our club is one of the fortunate ones that can afford and does  have in place insurance as part of their business contingency plans. They would only be able to use this if the Government, not the footballing authorities declare a force majeure, SPFL & SFA are irrelevant as far as this is concerned. This would remove the need for any FoH funds being diverted. Makes me wonder if Killie have insurance if their equivalents have already given over funds. £50k, in real terms won’t last go a long way in this day and age.

 

[Cruyff]

6 hours ago, JohnB said:

 

I take on board your point of view mate -  I'm maybe overreacting due to being over 70 with serious underlying health problems. Amazing how being a prime candidate for the chop can affect your outlook.

Take care.

I completely understand John, I don't blame you. You stay safe mate. 👍 

[Boab]

14 hours ago, Jarhead said:

If the club has no income we may HAVE to divert FoH money but I do understand why not everyone may be comfortable with that. 

Comfortable or not, many people are going to feeling this for quite a while. FOH will take a hit, you can take that to the bank.....or not take it more realistically !

 

[1953]

2 hours ago, Saint Jambo said:

 

The last FOH payment of the loan was confirmed on 4 Feb. My understanding was that just left a payment for the shares, which I think was only likely to require one or two months of donations. After that all FOH money is due to go to the club as non-ringfenced income. That means it won't be a case of diverting FOH funds to pay wages. While it will be a timely boost to the income and more reliable at a time like this than gate receipts, it isn't unexpected income.

I'm expecting FOH donations to take a hit along with everything else as money gets tight for people ill/laid off etc. It'll be the first thing to go under the circumstances imo. The club will know this so I expect them to try to cut their cloth accordingly which will mean reducing costs as much as possible and would hope that the higher earners salaries will be looked at as well as everybody else's. I'm retired so my income is pretty secure but will I give Hearts any more of it to keep them afloat? Possibly, but depends on if there were any more pressing needs for my spare cash like helping family for instance if any of them are struggling.

[Boab]

Just now, 1953 said:

I'm expecting FOH donations to take a hit along with everything else as money gets tight for people ill/laid off etc. It'll be the first thing to go under the circumstances imo. The club will know this so I expect them to try to cut their cloth accordingly which will mean reducing costs as much as possible and would hope that the higher earners salaries will be looked at as well as everybody else's. I'm retired so my income is pretty secure but will I give Hearts any more of it to keep them afloat? Possibly, but depends on if there were any more pressing needs for my spare cash like helping family for instance if any of them are struggling.

Yip. One of the first things to go if things were tight would be my FOH pledge.

Nothing different about this present situation from one that would have impacted me financially otherwise.

[Thomaso]

12 hours ago, Cruyff said:

I think with full time contracts, players are paid weekly or monthly while they are under contract  regardless of whether they are playing or not until their contract ends. 

 

They get paid throughout the summer anyway.

 

Obviously many of our players will have bonuses attached to their contracts such as appearance money for example. 

 

For part timers it may be a different case scenario. 

 

I think Force Majeaure would only come into Football contracts, If for example there was a war and football was suspended indefinitely. As things stand, football will resume at some point. 

 

As for Sponsors such as William Hill for the Scottish Cup, they may claim that they do not have to pay up for any prize money etc.. Due to the competition being cancelled or voided. 

 

It works for different things. 

William Hill (and other main sponsors) have had the benefit of advertising, publicity and PR for the vast majority of the season. As such they would only be entitled to a percentage rebate for the limited games that did not take place surely?

[John Gentleman]

31 minutes ago, 1953 said:

I'm expecting FOH donations to take a hit along with everything else as money gets tight for people ill/laid off etc. It'll be the first thing to go under the circumstances imo. The club will know this so I expect them to try to cut their cloth accordingly which will mean reducing costs as much as possible and would hope that the higher earners salaries will be looked at as well as everybody else's. I'm retired so my income is pretty secure but will I give Hearts any more of it to keep them afloat? Possibly, but depends on if there were any more pressing needs for my spare cash like helping family for instance if any of them are struggling.

Look after yourself and your own. First priority.

[Thomaso]

31 minutes ago, 1953 said:

I'm expecting FOH donations to take a hit along with everything else as money gets tight for people ill/laid off etc. It'll be the first thing to go under the circumstances imo. The club will know this so I expect them to try to cut their cloth accordingly which will mean reducing costs as much as possible and would hope that the higher earners salaries will be looked at as well as everybody else's. I'm retired so my income is pretty secure but will I give Hearts any more of it to keep them afloat? Possibly, but depends on if there were any more pressing needs for my spare cash like helping family for instance if any of them are struggling.

That reflects my thoughts completely - family first then Hearts.

One positive is that we are in a very solid financial position even with the spectre of relegation with a current owner who is not exactly short of a bob or two.

Many other Clubs are not so fortunate.