The Labour party

[Justin Z]

5 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

The SNP will vote against anything the government proposes at Westminster to make themselves feel important but that will not make a difference to the result.  Therefore they are irrelevant because they have backed themselves into a corner where they potentially could have negotiated something for Scotland but won't due to their unapproachable attitude.

 

Finding it difficult to surmise how pulling a Nick Clegg would be the way forward.

[frankblack]

5 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Finding it difficult to surmise how pulling a Nick Clegg would be the way forward.

 

Not sure I picked up the correct context for your reply.

 

A Nick Clegg type fronting a centralist party with Labour's potential electoral pull could get in if things don't go smoothly over the next 5 years for Boris.

 

I doubt the Momentum wing would elect such a leader, however.

Edited December 31, 2019 by frankblack

[Justin Z]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Not sure I picked up the correct context for your reply.

 

A Nick Clegg type fronting a centralist party with Labour's potential electoral pull could get in if things don't go smoothly over the next 5 years for Boris.

 

I doubt the Momentum wing would elect such a leader, however.

 

I meant more how they went against everything their voters put them into a position of power for in order to form a coalition with the Tories. We all know what happened to the Lib Dems after that. I don't see how the SNP wouldn't be forced to do the same sort of thing if they were to cooperate with a government they rightly feel don't care about their constituents.

 

 

[frankblack]

22 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I meant more how they went against everything their voters put them into a position of power for in order to form a coalition with the Tories. We all know what happened to the Lib Dems after that. I don't see how the SNP wouldn't be forced to do the same sort of thing if they were to cooperate with a government they rightly feel don't care about their constituents.

 

 

 

Of course the Lib Dems probably suffered at the last GE due to their coalition with the tories in previous parliaments.

 

The SNP stated in the GE campaign they wouldn't work with the tories, which leaves them in a position where they can't influence anything at Westminster due to the tory majority and will need to backtrack and build some bridges or spend the next five years in the wilderness.

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Of course the Lib Dems probably suffered at the last GE due to their coalition with the tories in previous parliaments.

 

The SNP stated in the GE campaign they wouldn't work with the tories, which leaves them in a position where they can't influence anything at Westminster due to the tory majority and will need to backtrack and build some bridges or spend the next five years in the wilderness.

Build bridges with Tories. I've heard it all now.

[Justin Z]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Of course the Lib Dems probably suffered at the last GE due to their coalition with the tories in previous parliaments.

 

The SNP stated in the GE campaign they wouldn't work with the tories, which leaves them in a position where they can't influence anything at Westminster due to the tory majority and will need to backtrack and build some bridges or spend the next five years in the wilderness.

 

That's the thing though, I don't see how the SNP get the votes they got if they didn't do that.

 

Meanwhile the Lib Dems said stuff like "we'll preserve your free tuition", got votes off that, and then sold that out for the chance at "influence" and they've been an even greater irrelevance than they ever were before, since then.

 

So yeah I just don't see how turning round and playing nice to a Tory-run Westminster now could possibly benefit the SNP, and I also don't see how they could have secured so many seats not putting down firm lines in the sand--something Labour didn't do for the longest time by contrast, especially as regards Brexit (and for which they paid the price).

 

For what it's worth I also don't see how the SNP care if they're an irrelevance in Westminster.

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

That's the thing though, I don't see how the SNP get the votes they got if they didn't do that.

 

Meanwhile the Lib Dems said stuff like "we'll preserve your free tuition", got votes off that, and then sold that out for the chance at "influence" and they've been an even greater irrelevance than they ever were before, since then.

 

So yeah I just don't see how turning round and playing nice to a Tory-run Westminster now could possibly benefit the SNP, and I also don't see how they could have secured so many seats not putting down firm lines in the sand--something Labour didn't do for the longest time by contrast, especially as regards Brexit (and for which they paid the price).

 

For what it's worth I also don't see how the SNP care if they're an irrelevance in Westminster.

 

Playing nice to the Tory run Westminster may bring additional powers to Holyrood, more funding, and perhaps the chance to create some laws at Westminster for the whole of the UK.

 

The SNP have to negotiate with the tories to get powers transferred from the EU in 2021.  Being obstructive and refusing to take the powers will ultimately look petty.

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Playing nice to the Tory run Westminster may bring additional powers to Holyrood, more funding, and perhaps the chance to create some laws at Westminster for the whole of the UK.

 

The SNP have to negotiate with the tories to get powers transferred from the EU in 2021.  Being obstructive and refusing to take the powers will ultimately look petty.

What will wm keeping devolved powers look like?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

What will wm keeping devolved powers look like?

 

Powers from the EU post Brexit?

 

If the SNP won't play ball over EU powers I guess they will be transferred to Holyrood anyway with the SNP throwing away the chance to negotiate the details.

[JamboX2]

On 21/12/2019 at 13:39, Cruyff said:

It’s up to the party members and the unions to choose a new leader.

 

He needs forced out. Keir Stammer or Hilary Benn should be leader. 

 

Scottish Labour needs to change their leader as well and their entire policy towards Scottish Independence or both the Labour Party and it’s Branch office in Scotland will continue to be unelectable. 

 

Would agree with the change of leader and style: Starmer is a bit of a dry one but Phillips or Cooper would be good ones.

 

The Party needs to adopt a position on independence which is simple and can live with. Be the soft-no/yes party. Just say "won't hold one ourselves, but if there's a majority in parliament for it, it should be had." At the least it is very honest democratically. 

 

I think in Scotland it needs a big clear out of it's MSP group. Get the younger MPs like Sweeney, Killen and folk like Rowley into Holyrood. They did well in Westminster and the Holyrood group is a bit dry in talent. 

[ri Alban]

28 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Powers from the EU post Brexit?

 

If the SNP won't play ball over EU powers I guess they will be transferred to Holyrood anyway with the SNP throwing away the chance to negotiate the details.

That's not what I asked. What will it look like, if the Tories steal devolved powers?

 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

That's not what I asked. What will it look like, if the Tories steal devolved powers?

 

 

Where is it stated they plan to steal devolved powers?

[Justin Z]

I think what he's trying to say is that there may be political expediency/necessity in restoring the devolved powers Westminster decided Holyrood shouldn't have when it came to Brexit, something I think Scots should be a lot more pissed off about--if the Tories keep pushing that and don't restore them, then they may take notice en masse.

[ri Alban]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Where is it stated they plan to steal devolved powers?

Well they keeping the fishing powers for a start. They've kept money for Scottish farmers already. So ??? Answer the question.

[frankblack]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Well they keeping the fishing powers for a start. They've kept money for Scottish farmers already. So ??? Answer the question.

 

So, let me get this right they didn't steal powers from Holyrood?

 

Did the SNP negotiate with the government or were they obstructive and didn't get a post-brexit EU power devolved?

[Francis Albert]

On 29/12/2019 at 21:11, Diadora Van Basten said:

are consistent about a sadly neglected issue.I find the situation facing the Labour Party fascinating.

 

In the last two leadership elections they retreated to their comfort zone and paid the price in the elections partially hidden by how bad May was.

 

In my opinion they need to look to the Scandinavian countries to see how left wing policies and financial discipline can make a more fair and equal society. 

Rebecca Long Bailey wrote an article in the Guardian a few days ago which was almost word for word Corbyn's New Year message. She is Momentum and McLuskey's preferred successor and given changes to membership and the constitution is the most likely successor. 

They are taking the "fight" to the streets and the shop floor neglecting the history of Labour as primarily a Parliamentary Party, the only way it ever has or ever will achieve anything. 

It is sad to see the Labour Party of Bevan, Bevin, Gaitskell, Harold Wilson ("the Labour Party is a crusade or it is nothing" but said in the context of Parliamentary democracy), Denis Healey, John Smith, Robin Cook, even Gordon Brown (even dare I say it early Blair) reducing itself to a fringe of "activists". 

For the first time ever in nearly 50 years I couldn't bring myself to vote Labour. None of the others appealed so I voted Green, not so much because I agree with their policies but because at least they are consistent about issues largely neglected.

 

[JAYEL]

20 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

How can you possibly say that the third largest party in the UK is irrelevant? Even the most die hard remainers would call your statement stupid. 

Baffling 😃

[coconut doug]

3 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

So, let me get this right they didn't steal powers from Holyrood?

 

Did the SNP negotiate with the government or were they obstructive and didn't get a post-brexit EU power devolved?

 

According to the Guardian and others Yes they did https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/tories-using-brexit-to-grab-back-devolved-powers-say-ministers   What do you say now?

 

According to Theresa May in the same article 

Meanwhile, Theresa May has insisted the Scottish and UK governments are closer to a deal on post-Brexit powers than people realise, arguing there is “considerable common ground” between them.

In an article for the Scottish political magazine Holyrood, May claimed that the Scottish and Welsh governments had already had a “beneficial” influence on her thinking about Brexit – countering opposition claims the devolved governments had been ignored.

 

What do you say now, anything?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Rebecca Long Bailey wrote an article in the Guardian a few days ago which was almost word for word Corbyn's New Year message. She is Momentum and McLuskey's preferred successor and given changes to membership and the constitution is the most likely successor. 

They are taking the "fight" to the streets and the shop floor neglecting the history of Labour as primarily a Parliamentary Party, the only way it ever has or ever will achieve anything. 

It is sad to see the Labour Party of Bevan, Bevin, Gaitskell, Harold Wilson ("the Labour Party is a crusade or it is nothing" but said in the context of Parliamentary democracy), Denis Healey, John Smith, Robin Cook, even Gordon Brown (even dare I say it early Blair) reducing itself to a fringe of "activists". 

For the first time ever in nearly 50 years I couldn't bring myself to vote Labour. None of the others appealed so I voted Green, not so much because I agree with their policies but because at least they are consistent about issues largely neglected.

 

 

Tom Newton Dunn (I believe it was him) made a prediction the other day on Sky News, it went something like this.

 

If Rebecca Long Bailey got elected as leader, he predicted that there would be a break-away movement of moderate labour MP's, the likes of Lisa Nandy, Jess Philips, Yvette Cooper etc etc, he said as many as 102 labour MP's could form their own Party, that was his understanding and if it happened this new party would automatically become the official HM Loyal Opposition party and reduce what would be left of the Labour party into 3rd place.

 

There has been a lot of talk over the last few years that there needs to be another political force in Britain maybe if a Corbyn clone is elected leader of the Labour party, that might be the catalyst.  2020 could be an interesting year once again on the political front.

[Dawnrazor]

20 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Tom Newton Dunn (I believe it was him) made a prediction the other day on Sky News, it went something like this.

 

If Rebecca Long Bailey got elected as leader, he predicted that there would be a break-away movement of moderate labour MP's, the likes of Lisa Nandy, Jess Philips, Yvette Cooper etc etc, he said as many as 102 labour MP's could form their own Party, that was his understanding and if it happened this new party would automatically become the official HM Loyal Opposition party and reduce what would be left of the Labour party into 3rd place.

 

There has been a lot of talk over the last few years that there needs to be another political force in Britain maybe if a Corbyn clone is elected leader of the Labour party, that might be the catalyst.  2020 could be an interesting year once again on the political front.

If the prediction is correct, a reasonable assumption imo, who would get the keep the name of "The Labour Party"? 

 

Is there enough moderates to kick out the Corbyn left, the Corbyn left could call themselves "The Socialist Workers Party" or similar? 

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

According to the Guardian and others Yes they did https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/26/tories-using-brexit-to-grab-back-devolved-powers-say-ministers   What do you say now?

 

According to Theresa May in the same article 

Meanwhile, Theresa May has insisted the Scottish and UK governments are closer to a deal on post-Brexit powers than people realise, arguing there is “considerable common ground” between them.

In an article for the Scottish political magazine Holyrood, May claimed that the Scottish and Welsh governments had already had a “beneficial” influence on her thinking about Brexit – countering opposition claims the devolved governments had been ignored.

 

What do you say now, anything?

 

It goes back to an earlier point about the aggressive stance taken by the SNP over Brexit.

 

There has to be a bit of give and take in negotiations and the SNP didn't want to negotiate as they wanted to block Brexit.

 

When it comes to fishing rights the SNP don't care about the fishermen or they wouldn't want to rejoin the EU and throw them under a bus by returning to restrictions of the common fisheries policy.

[coconut doug]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It goes back to an earlier point about the aggressive stance taken by the SNP over Brexit.

 

There has to be a bit of give and take in negotiations and the SNP didn't want to negotiate as they wanted to block Brexit.

 

When it comes to fishing rights the SNP don't care about the fishermen or they wouldn't want to rejoin the EU and throw them under a bus by returning to restrictions of the common fisheries policy.

If the SNP took an aggressive stance why did they propose all party negotiations.

 

So why did Theresa May say what she did if there was no give and take?

 

Have the SNP not been vocal in their opposition to the common fisheries since it started?

 

Do you have any evidence that the SNP wants to throw our fishermen under a bus and can you be sure that the current government will not allow EU boats access to our waters and fish?

 

Do you know who controls the quotas now and do you have any idea whether the quotas owned by the current fishing companies will be retained after Brexit?

 

Are you aware that it has taken 40 years to return our fish stocks to sustainable levels and that has been done whilst in the EU

 

This is the wrong thread BTW. This one is about the Labour party.

[The Mighty Thor]

Richard Burgon standing as deputy to Ian Lavery. 

 

No joke,  bottle of coke.

 

I thought out of power for 10 years. Nah **** it I'm going 15 years on this news. 😂

 

Its like they've actually chucked it and don't know how to wrap the whole shitshow up.

[frankblack]

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

If the SNP took an aggressive stance why did they propose all party negotiations.

 

The SNP proposed an intransigent position incompatible with Brexit that they knew was a non starter then played the victim card when it was rejected.

 

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

So why did Theresa May say what she did if there was no give and take?

 

Theresa May was a weak leader and caved in when the EU negotiated with her.

 

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Have the SNP not been vocal in their opposition to the common fisheries since it started?

 

So why the rush to rejoin the EU and cave in on it?

 

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Do you have any evidence that the SNP wants to throw our fishermen under a bus and can you be sure that the current government will not allow EU boats access to our waters and fish?

 

See above.

 

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Do you know who controls the quotas now and do you have any idea whether the quotas owned by the current fishing companies will be retained after Brexit?

 

Are you aware that it has taken 40 years to return our fish stocks to sustainable levels and that has been done whilst in the EU

 

Of course that was needed back in the 70s and 80s with overfishing and I am not advocating returning to that problem.

 

Post Brexit we can change how quotas are owned and managed.

 

30 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

This is the wrong thread BTW. This one is about the Labour party.

 

Agreed.  It went off in a tangent from a valid post.

[coconut doug]

34 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Richard Burgon standing as deputy to Ian Lavery. 

 

No joke,  bottle of coke.

 

I thought out of power for 10 years. Nah **** it I'm going 15 years on this news. 😂

 

Its like they've actually chucked it and don't know how to wrap the whole shitshow up.

 

Ian Lavery can barely form a coherent sentence but if you want to wrap it up, he's your man.

[FruitJuice]

Anyone see frankie Boyle's review of the year last night when he said that the labour party seem to be nostalgic for the conditions that led to the formation of the party?  Anyone agree with him?  

 

[strappingjock]

Even after the indyref I was in favour of Scots having their say.  They had it.  Their behaviour thereafter turned me, and an increasing number, into an English nationalist, something which did not really exist before 2014.

 

Even with a 54/45 remain vote the SNP has continued to bang the indy drum. Not surprising as they are a one issue party. If they get indy what is left for them, and more importantly, Scotland.

Nevertheless the Scots continue to vote them into power. So be it. There could be massive consequences.

 

SNP is great at demanding democracy, but only when it suits itself.  The fact the UK as a whole voted for Brexit is not convenient.  SNP like to crow about how unfair it is that the Tories get so much for so few votes, and conveniently forget the SNP itself gains immensely from the FPTP system, i.e. 82% Scottish Westminster seats from only 45% of votes cast.

 

It was watching am impartial program that made me realise just how poisonous the SNP has become. People who have got on well for 300 years are now drawing swords.

One program likened Scotland to lemmings. Follow SNP over the cliff because after them there is nothing.  Nazis wiped out opposition first and killed their country second.

 

SNP is, after all, merely a left wing  party with a propensity to spend money. They may well sneer, but take away the English subsidy and the population will soon notice a decline.  Follow that with years of trying to qualify for the EU by doing as Brussels tells you, be my guest.

[Justin Z]

31 minutes ago, strappingjock said:

Their behaviour thereafter turned me, and an increasing number, into an English nationalist, something which did not really exist before 2014.

 

Sounds like a personal problem.

 

And uh, yes it did exist before 2014, and for quite some time. UKIP, the EDL, the NF. You've chosen quite the company to keep.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, strappingjock said:

Even after the indyref I was in favour of Scots having their say.  They had it.  Their behaviour thereafter turned me, and an increasing number, into an English nationalist, something which did not really exist before 2014.

 

Even with a 54/45 remain vote the SNP has continued to bang the indy drum. Not surprising as they are a one issue party. If they get indy what is left for them, and more importantly, Scotland.

Nevertheless the Scots continue to vote them into power. So be it. There could be massive consequences.

 

SNP is great at demanding democracy, but only when it suits itself.  The fact the UK as a whole voted for Brexit is not convenient.  SNP like to crow about how unfair it is that the Tories get so much for so few votes, and conveniently forget the SNP itself gains immensely from the FPTP system, i.e. 82% Scottish Westminster seats from only 45% of votes cast.

 

It was watching am impartial program that made me realise just how poisonous the SNP has become. People who have got on well for 300 years are now drawing swords.

One program likened Scotland to lemmings. Follow SNP over the cliff because after them there is nothing.  Nazis wiped out opposition first and killed their country second.

 

SNP is, after all, merely a left wing  party with a propensity to spend money. They may well sneer, but take away the English subsidy and the population will soon notice a decline.  Follow that with years of trying to qualify for the EU by doing as Brussels tells you, be my guest.

Take away the oil and watch your rate go to A.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, strappingjock said:

Even after the indyref I was in favour of Scots having their say.  They had it.  Their behaviour thereafter turned me, and an increasing number, into an English nationalist, something which did not really exist before 2014.

 

Even with a 54/45 remain vote the SNP has continued to bang the indy drum. Not surprising as they are a one issue party. If they get indy what is left for them, and more importantly, Scotland.

Nevertheless the Scots continue to vote them into power. So be it. There could be massive consequences.

 

SNP is great at demanding democracy, but only when it suits itself.  The fact the UK as a whole voted for Brexit is not convenient.  SNP like to crow about how unfair it is that the Tories get so much for so few votes, and conveniently forget the SNP itself gains immensely from the FPTP system, i.e. 82% Scottish Westminster seats from only 45% of votes cast.

 

It was watching am impartial program that made me realise just how poisonous the SNP has become. People who have got on well for 300 years are now drawing swords.

One program likened Scotland to lemmings. Follow SNP over the cliff because after them there is nothing.  Nazis wiped out opposition first and killed their country second.

 

SNP is, after all, merely a left wing  party with a propensity to spend money. They may well sneer, but take away the English subsidy and the population will soon notice a decline.  Follow that with years of trying to qualify for the EU by doing as Brussels tells you, be my guest.

What did your team's get banned from Europe for again? English Nationalism and your national team fans? They're quite the sight.

[dobmisterdobster]

Dan Jarvis should be the new leader but this is the Labour Party we are talking about. So they will likely choose a Corbyn protégé.

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Dan Jarvis should be the new leader but this is the Labour Party we are talking about. So they will likely choose a Corbyn protégé.

They'll pick whoever momentum and the unions tell them. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

31 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They'll pick whoever momentum and the unions tell them. 

 

That's the way I see it as well, and if that does happen then the Tories will be in power for the next decade, unless there is a breakaway Labour party which can appeal to the traditional labour supporter.

 

IMO the Labour party is in real danger of tearing itself apart and fracturing into at least two different factions.

[Ainsley Harriott]

On 31/12/2019 at 01:08, frankblack said:

 

The SNP will vote against anything the government proposes at Westminster to make themselves feel important but that will not make a difference to the result.  Therefore they are irrelevant because they have backed themselves into a corner where they potentially could have negotiated something for Scotland but won't due to their unapproachable attitude.

100% and they then wonder why Boris doesn't cooperate with the section 30 they need for indy ref2. I don't think they under the concept of negotiating anything. 

[ri Alban]

[John Findlay]

11 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They'll pick whoever momentum and the unions tell them. 

This person gets it.

[John Findlay]

11 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

That's the way I see it as well, and if that does happen then the Tories will be in power for the next decade, unless there is a breakaway Labour party which can appeal to the traditional labour supporter.

 

IMO the Labour party is in real danger of tearing itself apart and fracturing into at least two different factions.

Happened in the very early 80s when the gang of four broke and formed the SDP. May get SDP2 in the very near future.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Happened in the very early 80s when the gang of four broke and formed the SDP. May get SDP2 in the very near future.

 

 

Remember it well, looking like the same thing could happen again, because it's clear that Labour is so split that no matter who is in charge one faction isn't going to be happy and could breakaway.

[Justin Z]

 

Mark it down--this is exactly how it's going to go.

 

 

[Francis Albert]

57 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Mark it down--this is exactly how it's going to go.

 

 

I could mark it down but would need an explanation of what it meant before knowing whether or not it has happened.

I think I discern a "blame everyone but Corbyn and the Corbynistas" (for everything)  sub text but could be wrong.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Francis Albert

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

Mark it down--this is exactly how it's going to go.

 

 

 

Keir Starmer is another who split the party from their voters over Brexit.  To me he would be a deeply damaged leader from day one.

[RobboM]

53 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Keir Starmer is another who split the party from their voters over Brexit.  To me he would be a deeply damaged leader from day one.

In the Brexit referendum Labour voters backed remain by almost 2 to 1(https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted). Almost identical figures to the Lib Dems. There was simply NO Brexit positon that Labour could have put forward which would have appealed to every traditional Labour voter and, indeed, would have likely lost far more votes and seats had they taken an unequivocally Brexit position at the General Election.

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, RobboM said:

In the Brexit referendum Labour voters backed remain by almost 2 to 1(https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted). Almost identical figures to the Lib Dems. There was simply NO Brexit positon that Labour could have put forward which would have appealed to every traditional Labour voter and, indeed, would have likely lost far more votes and seats had they taken an unequivocally Brexit position at the General Election.

True but a commitment (again!) to respecting the referendum vote and not proposing a second referendum would have retained the support of Labour leavers without alienating Labour remainers who really had nowhere else to go.

And Tory remainers were never going to vote for Corbyn even if his position on Brexit was clear.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Francis Albert

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

True but a commitment (again!) to respecting the referendum vote and not proposing a second referendum would have retained the support of Labour leavers without alienating Labour remainers who really had nowhere else to go.

And Tory remainers were never going to vote for Corbyn even if his position on Brexit was clear.

 

 

Agree with this.  Starmer and a few others were responsible for creating the mess that was the last Westminster parliament due to their desperation on claiming the remain vote.

 

Labour voters are never going to vote for a party headed by someone responsible for that mess of policy change that was fatal at the recent GE.  They need to find an electable person in the centre but won't.

[Diadora Van Basten]

22 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Agree with this.  Starmer and a few others were responsible for creating the mess that was the last Westminster parliament due to their desperation on claiming the remain vote.

 

Labour voters are never going to vote for a party headed by someone responsible for that mess of policy change that was fatal at the recent GE.  They need to find an electable person in the centre but won't.

It does seem that Keir Starmer is going to be the next leader of the Labour Party despite being exactly the type of Labour MP that caused them to be wiped out in the North of England.

 

I can’t see him appealing to voters outside London which is not enough to turn the party around.

[RobboM]

14 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

True but a commitment (again!) to respecting the referendum vote and not proposing a second referendum would have retained the support of Labour leavers without alienating Labour remainers who really had nowhere else to go.

And Tory remainers were never going to vote for Corbyn even if his position on Brexit was clear.

 

Tried that at the EU 2019 elections and dropped to 13%. Labour remainers would have voted overwhelmingly LibDem at the GE

[Francis Albert]

15 hours ago, Diadora Van Basten said:

It does seem that Keir Starmer is going to be the next leader of the Labour Party despite being exactly the type of Labour MP that caused them to be wiped out in the North of England.

 

I can’t see him appealing to voters outside London which is not enough to turn the party around.

It was more Corbyn and his supporters than the likes of Starmer who caused Labour to lose votes in the North of England and elsewhere.

Whatever myths and self-justification the Corbynistas ply.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, RobboM said:

Tried that at the EU 2019 elections and dropped to 13%. Labour remainers would have voted overwhelmingly LibDem at the GE

The European elections were all about Brexit  and the results reflected that.

Despite the Corbynistas attempt to portray the Labour  defeat as down to Brexit the General Election was not primarily about Brexit and the results reflected that.

[ri Alban]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The European elections were all about Brexit  and the results reflected that.

Despite the Corbynistas attempt to portray the Labour  defeat as down to Brexit the General Election was not primarily about Brexit and the results reflected that.

What was it about, FA? Because as far as I see, Boris would not be PM without it.

Edited January 3, 2020 by ri Alban

[Francis Albert]

37 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

What was it about, FA? Because as far as I see, Boris would not be PM without it.

If we had not voted for Brexit Boris would not be PM. But we did and people got extremely pissed off and bored by Parliament's failure to deliver or come close to delivering any form of Brexit. 

But most post-election analysis on the crucial loss of traditional Labour votes suggest it was more down to Corbyn and the Corbynistas' desire to recreate the sort of socialist paradise enjoyed in Eastern Europe (and by Corbyn on his holidays there) until 1990, their sympathy for terrorists, their absurd advent calendar of daily promises of ever greater expenditure, a streak of anti-Semitism, and so on. Corbyn's campaign was a disaster.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Francis Albert