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Players suited/not suited to Gengenpressen

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Absolute Scenes

I cannot wait for the training session when he sees who needs to go, lines them up in the corridor screaming “NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN!!!!!”

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Barack
Just now, Absolute Scenes said:

I cannot wait for the training session when he sees who needs to go, lines them up in the corridor screaming “NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN!!!!!”

Conor Washington? Be a bit harsh on him.

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rudi must stay

I think we'll see Gagenpressing next season. This season he'll do what he needs to to improve us IMO, can only work with what you've got

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Smithee

Gegenpressen and a high press aren't the same thing.

 

In a high press the team pushes up, harasses the ball, closes the options, but basically maintains positional discipline, while the main principle of gegenpress is that as soon as you lose the ball your players race to press the ball to win it back as quickly as possible.

 

It still isn't new, my old teacher at school called it hunting in packs 30 years ago.

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Australis......

Interesting in the video posted on page 11 of the Stendal thread posted by 1971fozzy.

 

Someone comments that after Barnsley were relegated and when Stendel took over he was left with the same group of players but got them bonding and playing again. No mention of any new players he brought in during his short spell there.

 

He seems to get them bonding, playing for him and each other and get them believing in themselves again.

 

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davemclaren
38 minutes ago, Australis...... said:

Interesting in the video posted on page 11 of the Stendal thread posted by 1971fozzy.

 

Someone comments that after Barnsley were relegated and when Stendel took over he was left with the same group of players but got them bonding and playing again. No mention of any new players he brought in during his short spell there.

 

He seems to get them bonding, playing for him and each other and get them believing in themselves again.

 

This is what needs to happen. I can't see us attempting major surgery on the team  during the winter break. 

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SomethingAboutObua

Absolute weirdos getting upset over folk saying gegenpress jfc.

Berra's the immediate name that comes to mind that would struggle with gegenpress, even with 6 months of fitness and training I can't see him adapting unless Stendel uses some sort of sweeper role. Naismith's always getting injured and Whelan's age still raises questions so not sure with those two. I'm assuming/hoping MacLean has no chance of being with the team after summer anyway.

Other defenders, Bozanic, Haring, Mulraney, Uche, Washington, Lee if he comes back can all probably play/adapt well enough. Part of the tactic is passing to space/through balls while your opposition is out of position which Lee could do. 

 

Youth players and others out on loan are young enough to adapt

 

Damour and Meshino not sure if they'll be here after summer anyway

Clare, Wighton not sure about because they seem to have lost the entirety of the fanbase already and they must know themselves if their time is coming to an end or if they can salvage their Hearts careers

 

 

 

 

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Naisysback
3 hours ago, GinRummy said:


Cochrane is struggling to make any impact in a league below.

Thats a false impression as you are playing with poorer players against poorer teams so the quality isnt there, pitches are poor. You dont lose quality, but it gets highlighted when you have quality around you as ur passes\movement are anticipated, the more you go down the leagues the less that happens.

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Naisysback
3 hours ago, Lfhearts said:

Cochrane played well yesterday am told. McDonald I think was an unused sub.

McDonald joined them last week after 2 months out with a back problem.  Crawford interview last week said he is excited to watch him play as he is different but also said he will take it slowly and manage him. 

 

Harry played 2.5 games in a wee and 3 wins, thats what he needs , minutes on the pitch to get his sharoness back.

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GinRummy
5 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

Thats a false impression as you are playing with poorer players against poorer teams so the quality isnt there, pitches are poor. You dont lose quality, but it gets highlighted when you have quality around you as ur passes\movement are anticipated, the more you go down the leagues the less that happens.


Wonder why we loaned him out there then. All things considered, seems to be doing more harm than good.

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Naisysback
Just now, GinRummy said:


Wonder why we loaned him out there then. All things considered, seems to be doing more harm than good.

Well thats a great question, one for Levein.  He ruined 18months of the careers  of the 2 boys who came in and performed brilliantly. He said he was expecting big things then brought in 18 players and never gave them a sniff.

 

I think he loaned them out so the fans would stop asking for them to be played, if they arent there he couldnt play them.

 

Wete they good enough at 16, god yes, should they now have 50+ appearances under their belts, god yes, they would be better, quicker, more adapted and they are not afraid. This team now is full of players who are hiding, dont want to get involved in case they get the blame for it going wrong...the young boys dont care about that, they came in when the team couldnt win a game and they stepped up soin my opinion loaning them out was ridiculous. 

 

My worry now is they are in the last year of their contracts in the Summer...unless something dramatically changes then we will lose them...Leveins transfer policy saw to that.

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GinRummy
2 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

Well thats a great question, one for Levein.  He ruined 18months of the careers  of the 2 boys who came in and performed brilliantly. He said he was expecting big things then brought in 18 players and never gave them a sniff.

 

I think he loaned them out so the fans would stop asking for them to be played, if they arent there he couldnt play them.

 

Wete they good enough at 16, god yes, should they now have 50+ appearances under their belts, god yes, they would be better, quicker, more adapted and they are not afraid. This team now is full of players who are hiding, dont want to get involved in case they get the blame for it going wrong...the young boys dont care about that, they came in when the team couldnt win a game and they stepped up soin my opinion loaning them out was ridiculous. 

 

My worry now is they are in the last year of their contracts in the Summer...unless something dramatically changes then we will lose them...Leveins transfer policy saw to that.


Good response. Thanks. I don’t  know much about the youth at our club, other than when they appear fleetingly in the first team, so good to get an informed opinion. We do seem to ruin players though, both young and not so young, when you look at the 19 signings we made last season and how they’ve progressed, it’s grim reading. I doubt our signing policy could be so bad as they’d all turn out to be shit. To quote a well used phrase on here, something’s not quite right.

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Kiwidoug

Does Morrison show potential as a quick, fit, attacking player?

 

I'm sure that's the type he will be looking for?  Would Hickey offer that in midfield?

 

Stendel is likely to oversee improvement in some of these players.

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Andrew Gilbert Wauchope
7 hours ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

Personally I think we will need two or three players, but I think we have good players who are underperforming too. Not too worried. Pretty sure he would have liked to have Naismith, Souttar, Whelan and a couple of others in his Barnsley team that he won promotion with.

 

I think he'd like to have kept some of the players from the team he won promotion with, but the board sold them.  Which is why the Tykes fans still rate him and hate the board.  Still, their loss is our gain.

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Special Officer Doofy
4 minutes ago, Andrew Gilbert Wauchope said:

 

I think he'd like to have kept some of the players from the team he won promotion with, but the board sold them.  Which is why the Tykes fans still rate him and hate the board.  Still, their loss is our gain.


Maybe one or two of them will be available? Unless they moved on to bigger clubs with big wages.

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Smith's right boot

I just think of this when I hear that term. 

 

 

Psy_MikeCoppola.jpg

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JamboAl
2 hours ago, Naisysback said:

Well thats a great question, one for Levein.  He ruined 18months of the careers  of the 2 boys who came in and performed brilliantly. He said he was expecting big things then brought in 18 players and never gave them a sniff.

 

I think he loaned them out so the fans would stop asking for them to be played, if they arent there he couldnt play them.

 

Wete they good enough at 16, god yes, should they now have 50+ appearances under their belts, god yes, they would be better, quicker, more adapted and they are not afraid. This team now is full of players who are hiding, dont want to get involved in case they get the blame for it going wrong...the young boys dont care about that, they came in when the team couldnt win a game and they stepped up soin my opinion loaning them out was ridiculous. 

 

My worry now is they are in the last year of their contracts in the Summer...unless something dramatically changes then we will lose them...Leveins transfer policy saw to that.

I very much doubt that is the case.  I think they were sent there to develop their game under less pressure/scrutiny.

We see what's happened with Hickey.  He was not loaned out and allowed to develop with the 1st team which by and large he has done.  He has however shown signs of being a little jaded and many fans believe he needs to be rested or at least taken out of the 1st team spotlight for a spell to draw breath.

I don't think there is a "one size fits all" with how young players are handled

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KyleLafferty

Dunno how many times I have to say it you don’t need to be fit as a fiddle to high press 😂

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OTT

Wonder if Stendel will be looking at any German boys to bring in? Ultimately, I don't think this style of football has been tried in Scotland, so whilst there will no doubt be players capable of playing that way, having folk familiar with it already could be a huge boost. 

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Robbo-Jambo

If it starts at the top of the team Washington will be be the ideal man. 

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Famous 1874
7 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

 

You would bin Brandon? Where have you been for the last 3 weeks?

Keena has hardly been given a sniff of a chance and has looked pretty lively to me whenever he has. Mulraney is inconsistent but has been ability if he can be used properly. Uche is still our most reliable forward and Meshino still has potential.

Brandon has had 3 ‘good’ games in 3 years mate 

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steven_mck

Can't see him changing the style halfway through the season. Might be one or two loanees in January and couple players going out and that will be it. January not the time for wholesale changes. Will just try to stabilise things between now and the end of season. Needs the summer window next year and pre-season to begin to start putting in his own style.

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PhoenixHearts
11 hours ago, Zico said:

Call it geggenupthe****inpark and that’ll keep the 4-4-2/same eleven every week dinosaurs happy. 

"Haw, why's he wearinn boots wit urny black?"

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Famous 1874

People really think I thought we would be able to punt 15 players in one window? Deary me. 

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Jamboscanbevicius

IMO we have a core of players who could reasonably well suited to a pressing style:

Smith

Halkett

Souttar (once fit)

Haring (once fit)
Irving

Naismith (if he can stay fit)

Mulraney

Washington

Ikpeazu

 

Also young enough to be coached into it:

Hickey (once develops a little physically)

Brandon

Mulraney 

Clare
 

There are a few that might struggle, for various reasons, as they are a bit pedestrian or lack physicality and drive at times IMO:

Berra

Damour

Whelan (experienced enough to slot in)

White

Dikamona

Bozanic (fit enough to step in though)

Wighton


Overall we enough quality to make the transition to this new style IMO. Though, getting Naismith, Haring, and Souttar back in would be massive to make it work I think! 

 

 

 

 

 

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vegas-voss
20 hours ago, south morocco said:

Yip, back to good old old fashioned hard work as a team.

Every team that's good works hard

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Bauld

Might see a bit of it but for all we know he will look at us and decide a whole new plan.

 

Maybe even until the summer until he can build the team he wants to go with that style.

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upgotheheads
10 hours ago, Famous 1874 said:

Brandon has had 3 ‘good’ games in 3 years mate 

 

Not so. He looked a very good prospect as a youngster, then was injured as I recall and now looks to be returning to his earlier form. So you would bin him now?

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Elshin

The team needs to move yards up the park to start with.   The defence sits so deep it creates massive gaps between them and midfield.     

 

The central midfield need to start looking for the ball and finding another midfielder, make the safest pass to central defender constantly which makes us so predictable.

 

Players like mulraney damour and clare have the potential to suit stendals style but its more about thier mentality than quality.  Eg v livi they started well, pushing positive play.  As soon as livi scored and fans head went down all 3 never wanted the ball, stopped pressing and sat deeper.     The mentality of the squad will be standals biggest issue to deal with this season as there is quality there to be well away from a relegation dog fight

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Barack

The whole team is already capable of a high-tempo pressing match. Even with key injured players out.Exemplified by the Rangers match at home.

 

That mentality needs to be instilled in them by Stendel as the norm, not the exception, until the end of the season.

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
11 hours ago, steven_mck said:

Can't see him changing the style halfway through the season. Might be one or two loanees in January and couple players going out and that will be it. January not the time for wholesale changes. Will just try to stabilise things between now and the end of season. Needs the summer window next year and pre-season to begin to start putting in his own style.

 

1 hour ago, Barack said:

The whole team is already capable of a high-tempo pressing match. Even with key injured players out.Exemplified by the Rangers match at home.

 

That mentality needs to be instilled in them by Stendel as the norm, not the exception, until the end of the season.


Im not saying that Stendel has no plan B but he has a way of playing and it is as has been described. Within the geggenpress there are variations and B and C plans but people saying he won’t change the style of the team haven’t read up on this guy.

 

I also agree with Barack - we have the players that can play this although our success against Celtic twice and that Rangers draw was a high press game not geggenpress.

 

In the high press we often dropped off and reorganised when we lost the ball before deciding when to high press again - in the geggenpress when you lose the ball your role is to get the ball back ASAP.

 

I read that when a team wins the ball off you  it takes them on average 6 seconds to work out what to do with it. The geggenpress aims for you to get the ball back/disrupt the other team in that 6 seconds rather than stand off.

Edited by Tom Hardy’s Dug

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Tom Hardy’s Dug

And the team structure will be narrow reliant on full backs for width.

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Nookie Bear

I think some folk believe gegenpress is just everyone running around, chasing the ball like headless chickens.

 

It's being organised, knowing when to press, hunting down the ball in packs of two, winning the ball and then converting that to moving forward into an attacking position.

 

You don't just pick 11 players who are enthusiastic but pish.

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alanbauld

I would love to see Callum Patterson back and playing this type of football. Stagnating a bit at Cardiff under the new manager but would doubt we could afford to have him back.

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

I think some folk believe gegenpress is just everyone running around, chasing the ball like headless chickens.

 

It's being organised, knowing when to press, hunting down the ball in packs of two, winning the ball and then converting that to moving forward into an attacking position.

 

You don't just pick 11 players who are enthusiastic but pish.


Although 11 enthusiastic players would be a start

 

😂😂

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Dr. Bapswent

The success of this is not solely down to our own players ability to press (although it is critical). The oppositions ability to deal with this type of football, decision making and own skill on the ball will also be important.

 

We might not need a team of young athletes straight away to see some impact and this can allow us to transition overt time.

 

However i would think that aspiring to high levels athletic ability should be a given for a professional team.

 

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Famous 1874
3 hours ago, upgotheheads said:

 

Not so. He looked a very good prospect as a youngster, then was injured as I recall and now looks to be returning to his earlier form. So you would bin him now?

Yes absolutely. He won’t ever be good enough. I’d rather play Logan than Brandon

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Pasquale for King
18 hours ago, KyleLafferty said:

Dunno how many times I have to say it you don’t need to be fit as a fiddle to high press 😂

It helps though, even our old coaching team realised it’s hard to press with Uche up front for example. The rest should be fine with it if they’re fully fit and get behind the new manager and learn what to do.

Edited by Pasquale for King

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Ted Hastings
18 hours ago, Robbo-Jambo said:

If it starts at the top of the team Washington will be be the ideal man. 

 

Totally agree, before his injury he was full of industry and was always making clever runs in behind the defense. Looks like Stendel prefers the 4-2-3-1 formation so with that in mind I would go;

 

                      Pereira

    Smith Souttar Halkett Hickey

               Haring Whelan

      Walker Naismith Mulraney

                  Washington

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
3 hours ago, Dr. Bapswent said:

The success of this is not solely down to our own players ability to press (although it is critical). The oppositions ability to deal with this type of football, decision making and own skill on the ball will also be important.

 

We might not need a team of young athletes straight away to see some impact and this can allow us to transition overt time.

 

However i would think that aspiring to high levels athletic ability should be a given for a professional team.

 


A lot of SPL clubs can’t even deal with hoofball. So tactics that are vaguely proactive should take care of the bottom half of the league at least whilst we are still perfecting it.

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
1 hour ago, Pasquale for King said:

It helps though, even our old coaching team realised it’s hard to press with Uche up front for example. The rest should be fine with it if they’re fully fit and get behind the new manager and learn what to do.


ive rarely seen a big guy press as well as Uche did in the Lafferty Celtic game 

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Pasquale for King
4 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:


ive rarely seen a big guy press as well as Uche did in the Lafferty Celtic game 

Two football coaches told me otherwise, I didn’t know about it until then. It’s apparently harder to do with a relatively immobile player. He was fit in that game, he also played well in the 1:1 draw. The difference being that was at home, Levein and Macphee preferred Maclean in the cup final and the recent semi against Rangers on the big pitch at Hampden. I would imagine he will need to lose some muscle, and spend more time on his football skills to play consistently for Stendel. Time will tell though.

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Pasquale for King
49 minutes ago, Ted Hastings said:

 

Totally agree, before his injury he was full of industry and was always making clever runs in behind the defense. Looks like Stendel prefers the 4-2-3-1 formation so with that in mind I would go;

 

                      Pereira

    Smith Souttar Halkett Hickey

               Haring Whelan

      Walker Naismith Mulraney

                  Washington

I think Meshino would replace Mulraney, unless he listens and picks up what he is being told. 

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
2 hours ago, Pasquale for King said:

Two football coaches told me otherwise, I didn’t know about it until then. It’s apparently harder to do with a relatively immobile player. He was fit in that game, he also played well in the 1:1 draw. The difference being that was at home, Levein and Macphee preferred Maclean in the cup final and the recent semi against Rangers on the big pitch at Hampden. I would imagine he will need to lose some muscle, and spend more time on his football skills to play consistently for Stendel. Time will tell though.


Fair enough - football coaches will know better than me. I just remember him running down the keeper, and both the CBs fairly consistently without much support

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Pasquale for King
29 minutes ago, Tom Hardy’s Dug said:


Fair enough - football coaches will know better than me. I just remember him running down the keeper, and both the CBs fairly consistently without much support

I thought he played well that day and pressed well, it will be difficult for him in his present muscular form to do it week in week out.

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Spellczech
On 08/12/2019 at 15:07, SomethingAboutObua said:

Absolute weirdos getting upset over folk saying gegenpress jfc.

Berra's the immediate name that comes to mind that would struggle with gegenpress, even with 6 months of fitness and training I can't see him adapting unless Stendel uses some sort of sweeper role. Naismith's always getting injured and Whelan's age still raises questions so not sure with those two. I'm assuming/hoping MacLean has no chance of being with the team after summer anyway.

Other defenders, Bozanic, Haring, Mulraney, Uche, Washington, Lee if he comes back can all probably play/adapt well enough. Part of the tactic is passing to space/through balls while your opposition is out of position which Lee could do. 

 

Youth players and others out on loan are young enough to adapt

 

Damour and Meshino not sure if they'll be here after summer anyway

Clare, Wighton not sure about because they seem to have lost the entirety of the fanbase already and they must know themselves if their time is coming to an end or if they can salvage their Hearts careers

 

 

 

 

Got to give all the players a clean slate now we have a new manager - don't do that and you are no supporter of the club in my book...

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DarioHMFC

I think the following players from our first team squad could do something with his style of play if the applicate themselves correctly:

 

Smith

Halkett

Souttar

Haring

Clare

Mulraney

Walker

Morrison

Brandon

Washington

Keena

Naismith

Irving

 

Whealan could slot in as a holding midfielder but I don’t think the fast paced game is from big experience may get him in there.

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Naisysback

People may be forgetting something with the pressing style of football, once you win it back you attack with speed and flair.

 

Now, any player can be taught to run after a ball but once they win it back thats when the ability kicks in. Are they good enough to make the right decisions quickly,   execute then quickly, make the right runs, weight of pass....little bits of that can be coached but a lot is down to pure ability. The ability to read the game  to know where your teammates are  to pick the right pass which may not be the easy one. 

 

I think we have some players who think quickly enough to flourish in this but majority will be the safe option which loses the impetus required.

 

So not just about the press,also about the decision\execution once we get it back.

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vegas-voss
On 09/12/2019 at 07:50, Barack said:

The whole team is already capable of a high-tempo pressing match. Even with key injured players out.Exemplified by the Rangers match at home.

 

That mentality needs to be instilled in them by Stendel as the norm, not the exception, until the end of the season.

So true it's mental how we have gone from playing so well that way to completely different the very next game and then just abondon altogether.Well cup game pressed and harassed them really well always looking to be on the front foot then league match a few weeks later completely different.

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vegas-voss
5 minutes ago, Naisysback said:

People may be forgetting something with the pressing style of football, once you win it back you attack with speed and flair.

 

Now, any player can be taught to run after a ball but once they win it back thats when the ability kicks in. Are they good enough to make the right decisions quickly,   execute then quickly, make the right runs, weight of pass....little bits of that can be coached but a lot is down to pure ability. The ability to read the game  to know where your teammates are  to pick the right pass which may not be the easy one. 

 

I think we have some players who think quickly enough to flourish in this but majority will be the safe option which loses the impetus required.

 

So not just about the press,also about the decision\execution once we get it back.

Don't think anybody is expecting us to be Liverpool but we have the ability to play fast attacking football.A lot of it will be getting the players the confidence to play it.

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