Annual report and financials

[Castle rock]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Because Mr Romanov obtained results and won trophies. Could he have done better? Absolutely.

 

Vlad wouldn't have farted about with Cathro or Levein.

He also didn’t bother about killing the club so swings and roundabouts eh

[Coburg Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

She has the benefit of the doubt, I don't think for one second that anything dodgy or nasty is going on.

 

But I would like to know how spending an extra 3.7 million of club resources is justified.

 

 

Agree fully, especially the bit in bold.

No problem you asking questions, Smithee, I was just giving my thoughts. With the fan base that the FOH has, it's inevitable that a quite a few will be asking questions on a whole host of things.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 minute ago, Castle rock said:

He also didn’t bother about killing the club so swings and roundabouts eh

If you want to divert this onto Vlad, I'd suggest another thread. Suffice to say that Vlad and his group of companies put more into Hearts than anyone else in our history. Did they waste most of it? Of course.

[Unknown user]

This is nothing to do with Romanov

[Coburg Hearts]

Just now, Smithee said:

This is nothing to do with Romanov

You are right, of course, but I suppose you could argue that without Romanov there would be no new Main Stand for us to argue about, as Tynecastle would now be a Tesco.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Smithee said:

This is nothing to do with Romanov

Correct. Major deflection by Clerry.

[maroonsgotop]

2 hours ago, Castle rock said:

He also didn’t bother about killing the club so swings and roundabouts eh

at least we're still at Tynecastle though and not some nomad club

[Castle rock]

2 minutes ago, maroonsgotop said:

at least we're still at Tynecastle though and not some nomad club

Fair point mate

[Bazzas right boot]

3 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

No matter what the benefactor's done, an extra 3.7 million has come from club resources, that's a lot of money over and above the planned 3 million, and we should be asking questions about it.

 

 

Why? 

[gjcc]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Because Mr Romanov obtained results and won trophies. Could he have done better? Absolutely.

 

Vlad wouldn't have farted about with Cathro or Levein.

Didn’t fart about with Burley either. 

[Big Slim Stylee]

19 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Why? 

 

I’m not worried but he has a point. Given our past we should always ask questions.

[i8hibsh]

No Mercer no Robinson

No Robinson no Romanov

No Romanov no Budge

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

4 minutes ago, Big Slim Stylee said:

 

I’m not worried but he has a point. Given our past we should always ask questions.

 

 

Fair enough but why? 

 

If it was a low initial estimate - what? 

If it was mistakes--what? 

If it was change in design - what. 

 

It's a genuine question, why does he want to know and if he gets answers what does he want to happen based on them? 

 

I'm more concerned with the final outcome, Tynecastle , Gorgie, new stand, no long term debt. 

 

It's all about the football side now. 

 

If there was a mistake, it changes nothing. 

I don't understand the train of thought. 

 

It was a genuine question, why does he want to know? 

 

 

 

 

[Beast Boy]

4 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

No Mercer no Robinson

No Robinson no Romanov

No Romanov no Budge

 

 

There’s no limits.

[i8hibsh]

7 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

There’s no limits.

 

 

Let me guess. Do I hate blacks or women for that post?

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Let me guess. Do I hate blacks or women for that post?

Both if you don’t like the band.

[Jambo-Fox]

We are Hearts

We are supporters

We are FoH 

We are BENEFACTORS 

We will be owners

We will support your ever more!!

 

Heart of Midlothian 

[davemclaren]

8 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

No Mercer no Robinson

No Robinson no Romanov

No Romanov no Budge

 

 

So would you have had as owner for the last 30 years? The reality is that the sun sets on every empire at some point in time. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

9 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

So would you have had as owner for the last 30 years? The reality is that the sun sets on every empire at some point in time. 

That's a pointless question. Unless you were a shareholder with significant influence you had no say in the matter.

[i8hibsh]

9 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

So would you have had as owner for the last 30 years? The reality is that the sun sets on every empire at some point in time. 

 

 

I think all of the past 4 have been very important.

[i8hibsh]

8 hours ago, Jambo-Fox said:

We are Hearts

We are supporters

We are FoH 

We are BENEFACTORS 

We will be owners

We will support your ever more!!

 

Heart of Midlothian 

 

To the tune of Super Trouper

Edited November 20, 2019 by i8hibsh

[davemclaren]

27 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

That's a pointless question. Unless you were a shareholder with significant influence you had no say in the matter.

You’re still entitled to an opinion. All four had/have their strengths and weaknesses. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

14 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

You’re still entitled to an opinion. All four had/have their strengths and weaknesses. 

Absolutely, but it is irrelevant to ask who you would WANT as owner. if he turned round and said "Richard Branson" what would you have said?

[Beast Boy]

Obviously our previous owners had good and bad on their records. Let’s look at just the bad things here though:
 

Mercer had bailiffs cutting around his office when players were signing contracts. His aborted attempt to buy Hibs still has a few question marks over it, whether it was a buy out or a merger. History reflects kindly on him because it never went through. 
 

Robinson’s financial mismanagement led to us accumulating debts we could not manage, and left us moments from selling Tynecastle, and moving to Murrayfield still saddled with debt.

 

Romanov mishandled our finances leaving us in a position where without buying shares and raising funds, we were going to be liquidated. A twist of fate with how our shares distributed amongst UKIO and UBIG allowed BDO to pull off a great escape, but Jackson says himself that he thought we were going to be the one that he failed on. It was bloody close.

 

Budge? Put too much faith in Levein for too long, and oversaw us not ordering seats for the new stand. Can’t think of anything else that would put a big black mark in the bad/negative column. Certainly nothing that threatened our survival.

[davemclaren]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Absolutely, but it is irrelevant to ask who you would WANT as owner. if he turned round and said "Richard Branson" what would you have said?

I would have said that wasn’t a realistic aspiration. For all of the individuals mentioned there were few, if any, real alternatives. Instead of Wallace we could have had Kenny Waugh but I don’t think we had any realistic alternatives for the rest. 

[jambos are go!]

It's clear to me that some folk on here have no appreciation of the enormity of what Anne Budge has done for Hearts. She is wealthy but not so enormously wealthy that her investment is loose change.

 

She has adopted a clever business plan to secure and grow the business and balance sheet thought increased funding from fans and the so called benefactors. Potential losses have been tackled year on year face on and nullified through benefactors if necessary. The club is on a sound financial footing so we should be eternally grateful

 

The playing side has been much more difficult and always will be. She is undergoing a thorough review of the football side of the club and its  structures. But that rigorous process is still fraught with risk and luck is needed as well as judgement. Mistakes have been made and hopefully lessons learned. Time will tell . But for now we are still lucky to have her at the wheel as far as I am concerned.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

You’re still entitled to an opinion. All four had/have their strengths and weaknesses. 

And all four were a vast improvement on their immediate predecessors before Wallace's arrival. In the decade or so after we missed out on the title and the yo-yo years began we would have been relegated 4 times in a 10 team league before we finally were on three occasions.  The old Edinburgh worthies who ran the club before Mercer arrived got lucky with Davie McLean who built the foundations of our greatest team but their unimaginative leadership (to put it kindly) did not take advantage by building on success and investing  but instead sold cheaply and bought cheaply. 

Mercer reversed the yo-yo tendency and started ground redevelopment. Robinson brought the 1998 cup win and new stands and some good teams. Both invested similar sums as Ann has done. Vlad "invested" more money than all previous owners put together and delivered trophies and some exciting times. Although it ended with near disaster I think it was also the potential revealed by near success that created the impetus for the huge fan response. In the late 60s and 70s apathy was so widespread that there is no chance there would have been anything like the fans response to our potential demise. And Ann of course stepped in and has overseen recovery from near death, further stadium redevelopment and off field growth.

 

So I think we should be grateful for all four. 

[jambali]

11 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

No Mercer no Robinson

No Robinson no Romanov

No Romanov no Budge

 

 

Without 2 of those we would not exist

[Jamboelite]

11 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Fair enough but why? 

 

If it was a low initial estimate - what? 

If it was mistakes--what? 

If it was change in design - what. 

 

It's a genuine question, why does he want to know and if he gets answers what does he want to happen based on them? 

 

I'm more concerned with the final outcome, Tynecastle , Gorgie, new stand, no long term debt. 

 

It's all about the football side now. 

 

If there was a mistake, it changes nothing. 

I don't understand the train of thought. 

 

It was a genuine question, why does he want to know? 

 

 

 

 

Simply because anyone who is managing the club finance needs to be accountable to make sure they are capable ?

 

If for example £6m was wasted due to poor management of budget, funds and planning would i be comfortable about that person continuing on in charge of how we spend our money going forward when there are no benefactors?

[Thomaso]

11 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

No Mercer no Robinson

No Robinson no Romanov

No Romanov no Budge

 

 

Exactly - all are woven into the fabric of our history that has brought us to a position of financial stability and a fantastic redeveloped Tynecastle! 

[Thomaso]

9 minutes ago, Jamboelite said:

Simply because anyone who is managing the club finance needs to be accountable to make sure they are capable ?

 

If for example £6m was wasted due to poor management of budget, funds and planning would i be comfortable about that person continuing on in charge of how we spend our money going forward when there are no benefactors?

It really all came down to extremely poor building costs put forward to Budge by the Architect and Cost Consultant.

The realistic number was £18m as advised to me by a Main Contractor contact when he saw the plans.

However if Budge had been advised the cost was £18m would she have scrapped the whole project - then where we have been?

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

It really all came down to extremely poor building costs put forward to Budge by the Architect and Cost Consultant.

The realistic number was £18m as advised to me by a Main Contractor contact when he saw the plans.

However if Budge had been advised the cost was £18m would she have scrapped the whole project - then where we have been?

The alternative could have been a more basic stand with the essentials - seats, roof, toilets, refereshment kiosks (because man has evolved to need food and drink every hour or so) designed to have other facilities added as and when we could afford it. If you and and the Main Contractor you consulted are right then going with a wildly inaccurate cost estimate was a mistake. An avoidable one. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Francis Albert

[Bazzas right boot]

31 minutes ago, Jamboelite said:

Simply because anyone who is managing the club finance needs to be accountable to make sure they are capable ?

 

If for example £6m was wasted due to poor management of budget, funds and planning would i be comfortable about that person continuing on in charge of how we spend our money going forward when there are no benefactors?

Do you think if there was one person at fault for a £6m overspend that we would then keep him on for new projects?

The club will not publish all it's HR issues.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

It really all came down to extremely poor building costs put forward to Budge by the Architect and Cost Consultant.

The realistic number was £18m as advised to me by a Main Contractor contact when he saw the plans.

However if Budge had been advised the cost was £18m would she have scrapped the whole project - then where we have been?

This makes sense, and once work has started then we had to go with it.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The alternative could have been a more basic stand with the essentials - seats, roof, toilets, refereshment kiosks (because man has evolved to need food and drink every hour or so) designed to have other facilities added as and when we could afford it. If you and and the Main Contractor you consulted are right then going with a wildly inaccurate cost estimate was a mistake. An avoidable one. 

 

Makes sense

 

 

Likely  a number of people at fault, Budge will surely not rubbish companies or individuals  in the public and any internal HR issues will remain that way.

 

 

Not sure what folk want, someone named and shamed?

Even if that happens, nothing will change in regards to the stand.

 

 

 

[davemclaren]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

And all four were a vast improvement on their immediate predecessors before Wallace's arrival. In the decade or so after we missed out on the title and the yo-yo years began we would have been relegated 4 times in a 10 team league before we finally were on three occasions.  The old Edinburgh worthies who ran the club before Mercer arrived got lucky with Davie McLean who built the foundations of our greatest team but their unimaginative leadership (to put it kindly) did not take advantage by building on success and investing  but instead sold cheaply and bought cheaply. 

Mercer reversed the yo-yo tendency and started ground redevelopment. Robinson brought the 1998 cup win and new stands and some good teams. Both invested similar sums as Ann has done. Vlad "invested" more money than all previous owners put together and delivered trophies and some exciting times. Although it ended with near disaster I think it was also the potential revealed by near success that created the impetus for the huge fan response. In the late 60s and 70s apathy was so widespread that there is no chance there would have been anything like the fans response to our potential demise. And Ann of course stepped in and has overseen recovery from near death, further stadium redevelopment and off field growth.

 

So I think we should be grateful for all four. 

I don’t disagree. They all stepped up when necessary. 

[Beast Boy]

48 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The alternative could have been a more basic stand with the essentials - seats, roof, toilets, refereshment kiosks (because man has evolved to need food and drink every hour or so) designed to have other facilities added as and when we could afford it. If you and and the Main Contractor you consulted are right then going with a wildly inaccurate cost estimate was a mistake. An avoidable one. 

 

That sounds shite though.

[XB52]

We have a brilliant new stand, without any debt being incurred, and people still moan🤪🤪

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

 

That sounds shite though.

I was responding to the idea if we knew it was going to cost 18m or 24m we might have abandoned the project altogether. Which would surely have been more shite. 

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, XB52 said:

We have a brilliant new stand, without any debt being incurred, and people still moan🤪🤪

No-one is moaning. 

Well apart from you about imaginary moaning.

[FarmerTweedy]

20 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

I want to know what mistakes and misjudgements have led us to this position 

 

We've struck it lucky with this benefactor, and I'm sure some of the massive overspend has only happened because his money was available, but Ann Budge promised transparency when she took over and this project has been anything but.

 

We also have no idea how much of the overspend could have been spent on the first team, so who really knows what effect it's had?

 

If we'd written "what does success look like?" at the start of the stand project, would 8 million over budget and still not fully realised 2 years after the intended completion date be on there?

 

Too much is being taken on a nod and a wink for me to be comfortable with.

Not arguing with much of what you're saying here but would just like to point out that we're not really two years past the intended completion date. It was always intended to be little more than a shell with seats in to start with, just so we could get games on at Tynecastle, with the rest of the facilities being gradually completed over time (although it was supposed to be completed before now)!

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

It is remarkable that it’s gone from £12m at the outset to £15m in 2017 and £24m now. There’s a lot of expenditure to explain away there.

[Vlad Magic]

Happy to be proved wrong but wasn’t the original budget (12 million) for the stand ready for supporters to sit in?

 

In other words did not include the full fit out and completion of all levels?

 

Im sure the original budget was purely for the stand (excluding corporate, restaurants offices etc) complete and passed safety certs ready for customers to sit?

 

 

 

 

[FarmerTweedy]

21 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Mmmm. Even we Hibs fans, keyboard warriors and know-alls have never come close to accusing FoH of obtaining money under false pretences!

 

Your first paragraph is probably pretty near the mark 

Maybe it would have been better put as producing an estimate based on assuming the minimum spec we could possibly hope to get away with and the minimum cost that was thought at all possible to achieve that spec at, while being aware that there was a strong possibility that specs and costs would increase once the project got underway!

 

Edit: I should also add that I believe a significant element of the underestimate of costs, as well as certain shortcomings in the initial design, would have come about due to the rushed nature of the project caused by the council's plans for redeveloping the old nursery, which gave us a very short timescale to get plans together. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by FarmerTweedy

[Footballfirst]

On 16/11/2019 at 21:42, Footballfirst said:

Pages 28 & 29 Tangible Fixed Assets

There is a note that £20.68m has been capitalised thus far as part of the Tynecastle Redevelopment Project (all elements). In addition to that, a further £2.42m remains classified as assets under construction. That would put the cost of the development in excess of £23m, possibly with more to follow for the fitting out of the second floor.

 

I have to make an apology for the above figures, as I think I interpreted those amounts incorrectly from the accounts.  I've probably set a few hares running about the total cost of the Tynecastle Redevelopment Project as a result.

 

On re-reading the accounts I think the £20.68m figure actually includes the £2.42m for assets under construction.  That means that the total cost to date is the £20.68m figure and not the £23m+ that I had suggested.  The final figure may well increase further, but we will have to wait for an update at the AGM.

 

Apologies once again.   

[Biffa Bacon]

Budge (and the benefators) have covered the cost of any overspend. why are we getting bent out of shape? costs of a project go up, this is nothing new. The tricky bit is not the under estimation but the ability to pay the bills. Ann has proven her worth continually. does anyone think that the benefactors would have acted without her chairmanship? and who is reaping the benefit.... the fans .... us. 

[Gavsy Van Gaverson]

If you want to know why there is an overspend go to the ****ing AGM and ask.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Gavsy Van Gaverson

[Jambo 4 Ever]

10 minutes ago, Gavsy Van Gaverson said:

If you want to know why there is an overspend go to the ****ing AGM and ask.

this

 

although it always at an annoying time of day so only those who don't work can go

[Unknown user]

50 minutes ago, FarmerTweedy said:

Not arguing with much of what you're saying here but would just like to point out that we're not really two years past the intended completion date. It was always intended to be little more than a shell with seats in to start with, just so we could get games on at Tynecastle, with the rest of the facilities being gradually completed over time (although it was supposed to be completed before now)!

 

Fair point

 

44 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

Happy to be proved wrong but wasn’t the original budget (12 million) for the stand ready for supporters to sit in?

 

In other words did not include the full fit out and completion of all levels?

 

Im sure the original budget was purely for the stand (excluding corporate, restaurants offices etc) complete and passed safety certs ready for customers to sit?

 

No, 12 million was the cost of the stadium redevelopment. 

 

17 minutes ago, Biffa Bacon said:

Budge (and the benefators) have covered the cost of any overspend. why are we getting bent out of shape? costs of a project go up, this is nothing new. The tricky bit is not the under estimation but the ability to pay the bills. Ann has proven her worth continually. does anyone think that the benefactors would have acted without her chairmanship? and who is reaping the benefit.... the fans .... us. 

 

No they haven't, the club's contribution was expected to be 3 million, its been 6.7 so far.

 

[Footballfirst]

18 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

The benefactor has paid 6.75million overall (and very grateful I am too), but 3 million of that was part of the original 12. It's not like the overspend's covered according to the figures the club gave out- 3.75 million of it has been.

 

As of last november there was an 8.5 million overspend- 3.7 of that has come from club resources. 

 

We've spent 6.7 million instead of 3, and I doubt that's gone down. I'd like to know why. 

At least another £1m has come from club resources in the last year. That £1m paid off part of the £1.75m "loan facility" provided by Bidco that was included in the overall funding for the redevelopment project. 

[Jamboelite]

4 hours ago, Smith's right boot said:

Do you think if there was one person at fault for a £6m overspend that we would then keep him on for new projects?

The club will not publish all it's HR issues.

 

 

This makes sense, and once work has started then we had to go with it.

 

 

 

Makes sense

 

 

Likely  a number of people at fault, Budge will surely not rubbish companies or individuals  in the public and any internal HR issues will remain that way.

 

 

Not sure what folk want, someone named and shamed?

Even if that happens, nothing will change in regards to the stand.

 

 

 

I’d suggest that one person has overall oversight of budget and overspend  and that would be AB no ? 
 

I dont really get people moaning because some people for asking some reasonable questions about how the £20.68m cost FF noted was accumulated.

 

I’ll say that again £20.68m cost, coming from a club that has our recent history isnt something that should just be a shrug of the shoulders.

 

No one says there has to be a public flogging, the cost for all the work done might be perfectly reasonable but we did use club funds for some of this that MIGHT have been used in on field matters.

 

Its called transparency and should be something we as fans should all want.

 

Im sure the AGM will cover some of it.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Jamboelite

[Jambo-Fox]

4 hours ago, XB52 said:

We have a brilliant new stand, without any debt being incurred, and people still moan🤪🤪

Understandable with the corners not filled!😉