Mikey1874 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 On 02/10/2019 at 19:11, Sexton Hardcastle said: The usual mob will hijack it sadly much like rangers do with their forces day. Utterly pathetic given the background and history. Not really what happened last time, last season. It was okay. Maybe you missed it if you weren't at the game. Pretty low key overall. Nothing like the Ibrox one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouLetYourClubDie Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Forever Hearts said: Well the pacifists can stay away for one day. Not that I think for one second there will be Hearts fans so opposed to war that Armed Forces Day will stop them attending Tynecastle on Saturday. Fans aren't being asked to dress as Action Man or anything like that and I think you are massively overreacting. It won't discourage existing fans from attending as everyone who has been to Tynecastle when it has been on before knows that we don't sing Rule Britannia and wave Union flags before the game. It could prevent us from attracting new fans however as anyone who has seen the same event at Ibrox could be confused for thinking we do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, YouLetYourClubDie said: It won't discourage existing fans from attending as everyone who has been to Tynecastle when it has been on before knows that we don't sing Rule Britannia and wave Union flags before the game. It could prevent us from attracting new fans however as anyone who has seen the same event at Ibrox could be confused for thinking we do the same. They really wouldn't think that and you are being a massive drama queen over this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouLetYourClubDie Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 3 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said: I think if you were not aware that joining the Army could get you killed, there is a fair chance you would not pass their selection ( I did also spend some time on the recruitment and selection process). I didn't know that but I still don't think it is a career Hearts should be promoting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Taffin said: I wasn't aware they were only two options. Love America or hate the UK? In that case get the BBQs out for the pre match grill and hand me a star spangled banner. Not being in favour of a football team having an armed forces day doesn't mean you hate your country. I could never hate Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Was Armed Forces day political? Of course it was/is. The then Labour government wanted to minimise the Political damage from body bags flown back from the middle east. Should we support the armed forces? Yes, because they only fight the wars our democratically elected Politicians choose to fight. Should Hearts have an armed forces day? Mmm I don’t have a problem with a day for armed forces charities but have reservations around a recruitment day for folks to go fight and get killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 hours ago, YouLetYourClubDie said: It won't discourage existing fans from attending as everyone who has been to Tynecastle when it has been on before knows that we don't sing Rule Britannia and wave Union flags before the game. It could prevent us from attracting new fans however as anyone who has seen the same event at Ibrox could be confused for thinking we do the same. What a load of rubbish,,stop us from attracting fans ?..nonsense Sometimes you wonder what world the odd poster lives in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 4 hours ago, davemclaren said: Was Armed Forces day political? Of course it was/is. The then Labour government wanted to minimise the Political damage from body bags flown back from the middle east. Should we support the armed forces? Yes, because they only fight the wars our democratically elected Politicians choose to fight. Should Hearts have an armed forces day? Mmm I don’t have a problem with a day for armed forces charities but have reservations around a recruitment day for folks to go fight and get killed. I'm sure potential recruits are well aware that joining the Armed Forces could see them in some form of conflict at some point. I'm also sure they know that the Armed Forces offer tremendous career opportunities that could make them see the world and learn skills that will set them up for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Forever Hearts said: I'm sure potential recruits are well aware that joining the Armed Forces could see them in some form of conflict at some point. I'm also sure they know that the Armed Forces offer tremendous career opportunities that could make them see the world and learn skills that will set them up for life. Unfortunately so many of our armed forces are abandoned and forgotten about by the UK government. Abandoning them to the streets with mental health, addiction issues. Its charities that take up the slack, It's the Charities that should be promoted. The way the British treat their veterans is utterly shameful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 10 hours ago, YouLetYourClubDie said: I didn't know that but I still don't think it is a career Hearts should be promoting. I don't think that the main aim of this is a recruitment drive. If a few people feel compelled to sign up on the back of this I suspect they were probably thinking about joining anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 14 hours ago, YouLetYourClubDie said: Fair enough. Still no idea why it is being promoted at Tynecastle as we are meant to be open to all. I don't see how this conflicts with the club on this point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 18 hours ago, FruitJuice said: This is a very good point. The club can't have things like this and then moan if some fans go a bit jingoistic waving certain flags at games. I'd rather keep politics and religion out of it altogether. I'm not against supporting servicemen, but this is too political for the football. The club are leaving themselves down to accusations of hypocrisy with events like this. Like the vast majority of the crowd I will applaud the members of the armed forces that take to the pitch. I don't see how that remotely makes me anything like the wee bigots that wave their tatty wee flags and sing shit about events in another country 300 years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Clearly being brought in to protect the Main Stand from the post-match proles uprising. I know your game, Chairman Budge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 No issues with the soldiers themselves if that’s the career they choose to go down but don’t think we should be hosting the armed forces day. We already do a lot in November in commemoration for the fallen which for me is the most important thing. I don’t really like the idea of the club continuing to link itself with the military, don’t feel it’s needed and will be pretty disappointed with the club if they are allowing recruiting on the plaza. It wouldn’t put me off a match but just don’t think it’s necessary at all. The military is a very divisive topic in society and think it would be better if the club didn’t align itself with it. Just my opinion and if the majority of the people want it at tynecastle and are happy with it then thats just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OBE Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 On 02/10/2019 at 19:22, Roxy Hearts said: That's the issue. It dilutes our history a little. IMO. I've no time for the jingoistic, "help for heroes" stuff. I support our armed forces, just don't want the BoJo type element of it. We've had our Scots regiments for centuries now it's one. Whenever I'm in a town in the Highlands I always pay my respects to memorials. Brave men from wee places, real heroes. Help For Heroes charity also support our armed forces, "jingoistic" extremely harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 22 minutes ago, Morph said: No issues with the soldiers themselves if that’s the career they choose to go down but don’t think we should be hosting the armed forces day. We already do a lot in November in commemoration for the fallen which for me is the most important thing. I don’t really like the idea of the club continuing to link itself with the military, don’t feel it’s needed and will be pretty disappointed with the club if they are allowing recruiting on the plaza. It wouldn’t put me off a match but just don’t think it’s necessary at all. The military is a very divisive topic in society and think it would be better if the club didn’t align itself with it. Just my opinion and if the majority of the people want it at tynecastle and are happy with it then thats just the way it is. Is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandjambo3 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Morph said: No issues with the soldiers themselves if that’s the career they choose to go down but don’t think we should be hosting the armed forces day. We already do a lot in November in commemoration for the fallen which for me is the most important thing. I don’t really like the idea of the club continuing to link itself with the military, don’t feel it’s needed and will be pretty disappointed with the club if they are allowing recruiting on the plaza. It wouldn’t put me off a match but just don’t think it’s necessary at all. The military is a very divisive topic in society and think it would be better if the club didn’t align itself with it. Just my opinion and if the majority of the people want it at tynecastle and are happy with it then thats just the way it is. Recruiting on the plaza is accurate to a point however, there is no sergeant with a clipboard saying “sign here sunny and we will see you Monday morning”. Seeing the military on the streets going about their business in general can help promote their image but does not directly target recruiting, it can however help to improve recruitment when someone decides “I could do that”. There are a lot of people enquire then decide it’s not for them, there are also a lot who try to join but fail for some reason or another. The vast majority of new recruits into the Army are encouraged by relatives and friends and, they had ambitions to join the military for a while. Troops on the plaza are more about breaking down the stigma of joining up. If you have no friends or family and, your military view is guided only by what you hear or see then your perception of the Army may be quite different to what it actually is. In the main, a lot of young people believe you have to be some sort of physical superman to get through the training process and are immediate put off. Talking to troops on the plaza can help break down that myth. The SAS actively send out teams to the army to deliver presentations on their selection process. They were desperately short of recruits as regular soldiers had the perception that SAS selection was almost impossible to pass, again a big myth, any trooper you meet will tell you to go and have a go (ps, you have to be in the military first though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, highlandjambo3 said: Recruiting on the plaza is accurate to a point however, there is no sergeant with a clipboard saying “sign here sunny and we will see you Monday morning”. Seeing the military on the streets going about their business in general can help promote their image but does not directly target recruiting, it can however help to improve recruitment when someone decides “I could do that”. There are a lot of people enquire then decide it’s not for them, there are also a lot who try to join but fail for some reason or another. The vast majority of new recruits into the Army are encouraged by relatives and friends and, they had ambitions to join the military for a while. Troops on the plaza are more about breaking down the stigma of joining up. If you have no friends or family and, your military view is guided only by what you hear or see then your perception of the Army may be quite different to what it actually is. In the main, a lot of young people believe you have to be some sort of physical superman to get through the training process and are immediate put off. Talking to troops on the plaza can help break down that myth. The SAS actively send out teams to the army to deliver presentations on their selection process. They were desperately short of recruits as regular soldiers had the perception that SAS selection was almost impossible to pass, again a big myth, any trooper you meet will tell you to go and have a go (ps, you have to be in the military first though). Yeah i understand why they do it, i just don't like that it's done at tynecastle invited by Hearts. I feel a bit uneasy about the recruitment targeting an environment that has a large portion of young working class people too, I don't know the ins and outs of the recruitment process but from what i've read/heard about it certain parts of the job are kept a bit vague as to push the military lifestyle that you see on the TV adverts where it's pushed as a big adventure etc. I think a lot of these people i mention will maybe come out of school with not a lot going for them and buy into the whole ''nothing else i can do so i'll join the army'' when i don't think that has to be the case at all. I am just coming at it from a different point of view from you, I personally feel we should have an army only for defence at home so it's understandable that we probably have different views on the military as a whole. It's not something i would actively protest against or anything, i understand the need for a military i just feel it should be kept separate from a football club where you will have fans of all different view points. I don't think even the biggest pacifist in the world would criticise the club for commemorating the soldiers who lost their lives with McCraes but i'm just not so keen on it having a close relationship with the modern military now. As i said just my opinion and don't want to shit on anyone or what they choose to do for a job, but i don't think i feel the same as others when it comes to celebrating the military. I would much rather see us have an Emergency Services day which the military could play a part in alongside NHS staff/fire service/police etc and would probably be ok with recruitment there as long as all the professions are represented. Yes forever hearts, of course the military is a divisive topic within Britain/Scotland. Not everyone feels the same way about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 hours ago, jumpship said: Unfortunately so many of our armed forces are abandoned and forgotten about by the UK government. Abandoning them to the streets with mental health, addiction issues. Its charities that take up the slack, It's the Charities that should be promoted. The way the British treat their veterans is utterly shameful. The way the British Government treats its veterans is utterly shameful. The public does its bit, but is hindered by a lack of understanding of the issues that many veterans face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homme Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Be nice if we could do an NHS day, or an emergency services day perhaps. Those who make a difference to our day to day life. (Not meaning to take away from the armed forces, just think if we are showing appreciation to groups then the above would be popular and well taken up, IMO) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Dont see why they need any kind of special recognition over any other workforce really. They sign up for the job and get paid an agreed salary for doing it. Anyway I'm not too bothered either way as I will go and watch the football and the whole armed forces thing is meaningless to me. Would rather have cancer research or British heart Foundation day if we are going to do these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 What about Hearts fans who are pacifists due to their religion etc, does the fact that this sort of thing goes against their beliefs not matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Forever Hearts said: Is it? Aye it is, just look at some of the replies on here. This thread should illustrate that it is a divisive subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: What about Hearts fans who are pacifists due to their religion etc, does the fact that this sort of thing goes against their beliefs not matter? Are we just going to cater for every small minority that might be offended or are you just taking things to the extreme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 I see the arguments have moved on from the thread that appeared this time last year then!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: Aye it is, just look at some of the replies on here. This thread should illustrate that it is a divisive subject. A tiny minority don't appreciate the Armed Forces. The rest of us do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 16 hours ago, upgotheheads said: Certainly that was true of the second world war, but not of the Great war, or the Korean war, or of the Iraq wars, or of just about any war of Empire over the last 300 years. These were wars in defence, or expansion of, the greed which promoted the wealth of a few but which sacrificed our youth in the name of our Empire and sometimes the USA's Empire. Your history is a little simplistic and doesn't make sense. Wars of expansion are also defensive wars depending on the threat you offer or face, such as happened in the Great War. Britain had no interest in a a Central European war but was compelled to defend France as its nearest neighbor against Invasion and occupation. South Korea was invaded and sought UN intervention and forces under its banner to defend it. You can't lump those interventions in with earlier British Imperial adventures (or Iraq). Armed forces deserve the recognition for the good they do for those of us who wish to live free and peaceful lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 21 minutes ago, Longshanks said: Dont see why they need any kind of special recognition over any other workforce really. They sign up for the job and get paid an agreed salary for doing it. Anyway I'm not too bothered either way as I will go and watch the football and the whole armed forces thing is meaningless to me. Would rather have cancer research or British heart Foundation day if we are going to do these. I can see your point, why is there no recognition of the emergency services, medical services etc etc. They do a difficult and vital job, but they are not alone in that respect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 It's a job they get paid. In my view they are not due any more appreciation than any other branch of the emergency services. None of these organisations should be begging for charity imo. Successive governments have failed in their obligations to these groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armageddon Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 On 03/10/2019 at 10:43, dannymack said: Armed Forces Day was not created by Rangers Football Club ! Tell that to the hijacking brain dead element within our support! I hate what SevCo have turned it into and we defo have that same element in a small portion of our support (the Lee Rigby banner v Celtic was a disgrace!) Great initiative by the club to really recognise our history, our present and our future - the club do these things with such class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambothejambo Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said: The SAS actively send out teams to the army to deliver presentations on their selection process. They were desperately short of recruits as regular soldiers had the perception that SAS selection was almost impossible to pass, again a big myth, any trooper you meet will tell you to go and have a go (ps, you have to be in the military first though). Not so sure about your thoughts on selection. SF training is now combined for both SAS and SBS. Anyone who has passed it has to be both superfit (and be incredibly lucky to avoid any feet/leg injury issues) but more importantly have the right mental attitude. This more than anything lets you down. It's not a myth how tough SF selection is to pass it's the truth. It's called special for a reason, and that's why there's so few of them. Apologies for slightly going off topic. As an ex Royal Marine most people are aware I have a slight bias towards our armed forces, thankfully 95% of JKB viewers share that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 14 hours ago, YouLetYourClubDie said: It won't discourage existing fans from attending as everyone who has been to Tynecastle when it has been on before knows that we don't sing Rule Britannia and wave Union flags before the game. It could prevent us from attracting new fans however as anyone who has seen the same event at Ibrox could be confused for thinking we do the same. Nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 37 minutes ago, Forever Hearts said: A tiny minority don't appreciate the Armed Forces. The rest of us do. That's just simply not true. I don't have anything against people who choose to be vocal and active in their support for the armed forces but lets not pretend it's just a wee handful of the country that have a different viewpoint. It's a divisive subject where people on both sides can be very passionate about what they think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, rambothejambo said: Not so sure about your thoughts on selection. SF training is now combined for both SAS and SBS. Anyone who has passed it has to be both superfit (and be incredibly lucky to avoid any feet/leg injury issues) but more importantly have the right mental attitude. This more than anything lets you down. It's not a myth how tough SF selection is to pass it's the truth. It's called special for a reason, and that's why there's so few of them. Apologies for slightly going off topic. As an ex Royal Marine most people are aware I have a slight bias towards our armed forces, thankfully 95% of JKB viewers share that. Played football once at Brize Norton in my RAF days. Kept clipping the heels of the guy I was marking. Got told at half time he was a Major in SAS, never touched the bugger all 2nd half. Great guys but anyone who thinks its for everybody is just fekkin wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kila Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 On the whole I'm not keen on this sort of thing being mixed with football. However last time it ended up being quite a low key thing. There was a big gun on the plaza and a few army folk dotted about to answer any questions but that was it really, I wasn't fussed in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upgotheheads Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, stan said: Your history is a little simplistic and doesn't make sense. Wars of expansion are also defensive wars depending on the threat you offer or face, such as happened in the Great War. Britain had no interest in a a Central European war but was compelled to defend France as its nearest neighbor against Invasion and occupation. South Korea was invaded and sought UN intervention and forces under its banner to defend it. You can't lump those interventions in with earlier British Imperial adventures (or Iraq). Armed forces deserve the recognition for the good they do for those of us who wish to live free and peaceful lives. History is sometimes surprisingly simple to understand if viewed from the perspective of centuries, and sometimes very difficult to understand when you delve into the detail. I am always prepared to honour the individual, and do so frequently. Too much of what we have seen recently though (and I include Armed Forces Day) is a fetishizing of the armed forces. Reading your last paragraph, and viewing it from the perspective of centuries of British Imperialism, do you detect any irony or contradiction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Forever Hearts said: A tiny minority don't appreciate the Armed Forces. The rest of us do. It's not about who does it doesn't appreciate the armed forces, it's about the context of this event. Does being a pacifist dilute someones patriotism? Some people believe that the football should be just for that. Is tynecastle the only place where you can show your appreciation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fila Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Wow just wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandjambo3 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, rambothejambo said: Not so sure about your thoughts on selection. SF training is now combined for both SAS and SBS. Anyone who has passed it has to be both superfit (and be incredibly lucky to avoid any feet/leg injury issues) but more importantly have the right mental attitude. This more than anything lets you down. It's not a myth how tough SF selection is to pass it's the truth. It's called special for a reason, and that's why there's so few of them. Apologies for slightly going off topic. As an ex Royal Marine most people are aware I have a slight bias towards our armed forces, thankfully 95% of JKB viewers share that. My thoughts are based on 25years service and experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan 10 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 We have more right to fly the British flag than rangers we thought for our country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said: The way the British Government treats its veterans is utterly shameful. The public does its bit, but is hindered by a lack of understanding of the issues that many veterans face. These folk in power, the British government are voted in by the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, euan 10 said: We have more right to fly the British flag than rangers we thought for our country Old firm game crowds were down by half due to the numbers of fans from both clubs that joined up for WW1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euan 10 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 We should be proud to be British the hearts history being British flying the British flag is not sectarian just proud off our clubs history and troops that are fighting just now to keep us safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, jumpship said: These folk in power, the British government are voted in by the public. Is that right? in your opinion, which government out of all the different ones that we have been thus far able to vote into power have done enough for veterans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, euan 10 said: We should be proud to be British the hearts history being British flying the British flag is not sectarian just proud off our clubs history and troops that are fighting just now to keep us safe Half day from school today Euan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Any of them decent strikers ? If so, give them boots ! Big hullabaloo about not much I see. Kickback in auto-repeat. Check out the last Armed Forces Day thread ! Not a problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Hearts Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, John Findlay said: Half day from school today Euan? Never heard that one before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambothejambo Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 2 hours ago, highlandjambo3 said: My thoughts are based on 25years service and experience. Service and experience of what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandjambo3 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, rambothejambo said: Service and experience of what? Army....infantry......warrant officer......8 medals......all the brutal stuff on the tv. Is that enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpship Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 47 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Is that right? in your opinion, which government out of all the different ones that we have been thus far able to vote into power have done enough for veterans? None of them, but the public keep voting form them. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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