Jesus freaks at my door

[The Doctor]

The Doctor...

I must at first stress that it is in no way my intention to 'stir things up' on this thread, I'm not religious myself, and therefore don't often like or choose to become involved in any such debate.

 

Having read yours and everyone else's contribution to the thread, it's very evident that you're far from stupid. And this is why I really am amazed at the number of times you refer to God and Jesus as if their existence had actually been proven beyond doubt - I refer to the way in which you talk, for example, of how 'Jesus spent his time with people who were isolated, marginalised...' and in the way you responded to one poster who had suggested that God had not created our planet - 'He did, he made it perfect and we messed it up'.

 

A question I'd really like you to answer is this. Do you refuse to rule out the possibility that there has indeed never been a God, or Jesus, or some form of higher being that created ourselves and the world? I don't know if you do or not - try to understand that you believe in your faith because you choose to believe in it. You choose to believe in it. Some other people don't. And, remembering how the thread actually started, that is exactly the reason we're discussing it in the first place.

 

I genuinely do hold nothing whatsoever against people who hold such a strong faith - I really just think they're a wee bit soft in the head to swallow the whole thing. I'm not suggesting that every Christian has had the belief imposed, for want of a better word, on them, however, many are 'schooled' into the way of thinking by other Christians. Where this does not apply, the believer has nonetheless similarly been schooled - by the Bible. Yet again, I must stress that I have no problem with this, if people feel they can take something out of it, than that's fine for them.

 

As we all know our world is far from a perfect place - it's way too far fetched to think that it was ever going to be so. Religion is in no small way accountable for a lot of the ills on our planet. You don't have to be a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist to be a good and moralistic person. By our very nature, and our emotions, and our ability to perceive the emotions of others, we humans are largely good people, we know what is 'right' and 'wrong'. And I believe that this would be so without any religion of any kind ever having originated.

 

In most cases, I'd think it's fair to say that religion has only been brought forth by man's belief that there must have been a creator of the planet we live on, of the stars in the sky above us - of course, with most religions being somewhat ancient, this would be at a point in time where man did not have the scientific knowledge to understand how life was really created.

 

Thanks for your post TIMS (ooh I've just realised how wrong your username is when you turn it into an acronym! Sorry!)

 

I agree with pretty much everything you say, I think religion is a bad thing generally. I have a problem with religious people, who do things for religious reasons, in a religious way. Religion is indeed a man made phenomenon and whilst you will find some religious practices in the bible, particularly the OT, I don't think Jesus teaches us (by us, I mean Christians) to be religious at all.

 

Jesus asks us to follow him, which means do what he did and one of the things he did really well was to upset the religious leaders of his day, who were more concerned with religious practices than the people they were supposed to be ministering to. Time and time again he comes up against the Pharisees and Saducees and challenges their attitude.

 

There are a couple of exceptions, I would say that the sacraments of communion and baptism are religious practices and I am happy to endorse both, but these only remind us of the nature of Jesus and his sacrifice, they are not any kind of means to an end, they are not designed to curry God's favour, although He often blesses people through them.

 

To answer your question, of course I speak about God and Jesus as if their existence had actually been proven. I have no reason to doubt the existence of God and I have a personal relationship with Him. I realise that that makes me sound like a loony, my big pal in the sky, but it's not like that.

 

It comes down to faith and a personal experience of the reality of Jesus. I was lost and now I am found, I was burdened by the guilt of sin and now I am free, I was unsure of my place or purpose in the world, now I am a child of God, adopted into His family. (Sorry for all the religious language, sometimes the preacher in me just pops out! Besides I don't know a better way to put it!)

 

I'm not sure whether I choose to believe in it or not. Really this is a matter of debate in Christian theology that has been raging for almost two thousand years! Did I choose to become a Christian or did God reveal Himself to me? Am I acting of my own free will or was I predestined to follow Christ. The debate began between Augustine and a possibly Scottish Theologian called Palageous, it was never resolved and continued between Calvin and Armenius in more recent times. Why has it never been resolved? I believe both concepts are true, I was both chosen and responded by my free will. This is a paradox, but that's ok, I mentioned paradoxes earlier and I am happy to live in them, I think we all do.

 

The question then becomes about people who don't choose to believe, is it just that, or has God not revealed Himself to them? If God, through the Holy Spirit revealed your need for forgiveness to you, if you were suddenly burdened by guilt, would you turn to Him? Would you seek redemption?

 

I also want to say that I was not brought up a Christian, I became a Christian at the age of 19 (I'm now 36), I went to bible college, studied the bible for myself and I've been a member of 3 churches. So I don't believe I've been indoctrinated, I have a balanced and reasoned faith. I have input from Christians of all backgrounds, from fervent evangelicals to extreme liberals, I have friends who come from every side of Christian belief and I listen to and respect them all.

 

Thanks for your question, I hope I've answered it to your satisfaction. I'm very happy to respond to any questions, but I'm still struggling a little with a website pointed out to me in a previous similar thread. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

It's a naughty one!

[Pete Seeger]

I assume that all those on this thread who are sneering at other people's beliefs, particularly Christianity do not celebrate Christmas? If you do, does that not make you the biggest hypocrites?

 

I celebrate christmas as it's good to have time off work and get around the family and usually a good football season. Hypocritical? Maybe but if it didn't exist we would still have a fortnight in the winter.

[JALBO]

I'm a Jesus freak and (controversial this one, sorry brothers, esp Jalbo) I'm not convinced that unrepentant sinners go to hell for all eternity, otherwise why would redemption in Christ offer the gift of eternal life?

 

Hi Doc

 

here was me thinking I'd drop into this thread and have a nice wee quiet read in the background, and now look what you've gone and done!

 

Actually, I'll read on through the thread and find some other stuff to reply to. We can have a right good argument about hell next time I see you......

[The Doctor]

Notice "not convinced", suggests that I'm still wrestling with that one!

 

Nice of you to drop in though...

[JALBO]

Strangely enough there was a documentary on the national geographic channel recently. With recent excavations on large plains (in I think America) where they had found remains human and dinosaur as well as arrow/spearheads lodged in the dinosaur bone. Which this guy figured proved man in a 'devoloped state'/dinosaur co-existed. Unfortunately I don't have a link for this though.

 

Yeah, it definitely happened. I'm watching it right now on ITV2. It's called Jurrasic Park III and humans and dinosaurs are definitely co-existing, but not happily, nor for long, as the dinos are doing their level best to put these particular representatives of mankind into the fossil record.

[JALBO]

Notice "not convinced", suggests that I'm still wrestling with that one!

 

Nice of you to drop in though...

 

About to drop in to bed.....!

[K1874M]

Dropped by 10 minutes ago to tell me about the love that Jesus can offer me apparently.

 

Their key points were that

 

1. Evolution is not real. If it was, people would still be evolving into "fish or monkeys" and we would be "growing wings from our backs".

 

2. The position and alignment of our solar system is proof that they were designed by an almighty creator called God.

 

3. Nobody saw evolution happen so there's no proof that it happened. Nobody saw God exist either but proof is not needed for that because they just know he's there.

 

4. Dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible because they play no significant role in the story of Jesus and the creation of the earth.

 

5. The bible was not actually written by god but it was written on his behalf by 40 men who were his "secretaries" in the same way as a "boss might dictate letters to his employee".

 

6. Christianity is true, all other religeons are wrong because bloke A said he's "looked into it" and was convinced by the "facts" he had found.

 

 

First of all, why are these lunatics allowed to walk the streets and why are they not in a secure home for the mentally disadvantaged or brain washed? Secondly, why do they think it's ok to annoy people on a Sunday and attempt to preach this utter madness to the public?

What do you guys say to these nutters when they ring your doorbell?

 

How funny would it be if it was two boys who had got totally twisted and thought it would be funny to do door to door preaching.

[K1874M]

Agreed. Christianity isn't a weak philosophy combined with Middle Eastern myth. It's a strong set of ideas made up of basic principles of human decency combined with Middle Eastern myth. Nothing wrong with that, except for the god bit at its core.

 

.

 

Isnt that just because its the norm for us...

 

For instance

 

If you get brought up where every adult that you look up to believe that Hibs will win the scottish cup then you will believe thats poss...

 

If you get me?

[Ulysses]

....humans and dinosaurs are definitely co-existing, but not happily, nor for long, as the dinos are doing their level best to put these particular representatives of mankind into the fossil record.

 

[Ulysses]

Isnt that just because its the norm for us...

 

For instance

 

If you get brought up where every adult that you look up to believe that Hibs will win the scottish cup then you will believe thats poss...

 

If you get me?

 

I get you. That's why I regard Christianity as a "strong philosophy" - a coherent set of ideas (or memeplex) that survives and propagates effectively.

 

A memeplex can be strong without being true, and I reckon this to be the case with Christianity (as indeed it is with Islam). And the most effective way for a memeplex to be propagated is by embedding it deeply in the minds of children.

 

To improve their chances of survival, the brains of young children are designed to soak up information at a far more rapid rate than adults can manage. The minds of young children are also configured to have a high level of trust in information imparted by adults, and an extremely high level of trust in information provided by parents.

 

Which means, of course, that the emergence of religion can be explained by reference to evolutionary biology.

 

Fascinating stuff.

[Debtor]

This falls apart here as most folk sent to sunday school give it, and God, up by their teens. Most Christians who come on here have done that or have never been brought up with a church background. Indeed today most folks do not have one and those who become Christians do so because they have found something new to their experience, a person, Jesus, who is God.

It is true that many follow what is put in front of them, but few Muslims, Hindus, Catholics or Protestants brought up in such circumstances actually believe it.. You might as well say all Celtic fans are true RCs and Rangers fans Protestant believers, they clearly are not! It gives them a lace to view the world and an enemy to blame, but nothing else and is not God.

 

Still, always nice to be different from Ulysses!

[Craigieboy]

You are all upsetting de laad with this thread.

 

You deserve a stoning.

 

.

[irontart]

You are all upsetting de laad with this thread.

 

You deserve a stoning.

 

.

 

would it be possible to set up a stoning please, buried to your head in the ground then set upon by religious people with rocks! CAN U FEEL THE LOVE

[geddy]

2 points.

 

1 JW's consider themselves "christian" inasmuch as they believe in Jesus, he is the only route for salvation and that "christian" has a general meaning of "Christ-like".

Most folk who call themselves "christian" whatever church group they belong to, actually don't follow half the standards and priciples he set out so are not TRULY christian.

 

2 As an atiest I have more right to celebrate what "christians" call christmas than so called believers. Christmas is based on pagan ideas and was an encouragement for the sun to come back up! I like to see summer so I will celebrate to help it along as I wish (or wish not).

If your messiah was born at all he was born Sept/Oct, so rather than us heathens getting it wrong and having no right to celebrate at the end of the year it is YOU who are in the wrong.

Christian churches LIE shock?

Not really. Most of them have tried to keep folk in ignorance and told them whatever suited themselves even if inaccurate or indeed out and out lies.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Most of the posters on this thread have me scared, I think I'm more suited to hanging around on drunk threads.

Let me leave you with 1 thought, I would consider myself Pagan although non-practising and Pagans seem to celebrate things with virgins whilst Christians have Santa Claus. So, who got the best deal?

[geddy]

Being a Satanist or a pagan is difficult these days.

I mean where the hell do you find virgins these days?

[The Doctor]

Hey Geddy!

Thanks for your input.

Just to come back at a couple of points.

2 points.

 

1 JW's consider themselves "christian" inasmuch as they believe in Jesus, he is the only route for salvation and that "christian" has a general meaning of "Christ-like".

Many JWs do consider themselves Christians, but I've yet to meet one who has an assurance of there salvation. Surely if your faith is in Christ you should be sure of your place in heaven?

Most folk who call themselves "christian" whatever church group they belong to, actually don't follow half the standards and priciples he set out so are not TRULY christian.

I'm sorry you've met such shoddy Christians, some of us try to reflect Jesus' love in the way we live, others find it difficult, but all of us should admit that we are far from perfect.

 

2 As an atiest I have more right to celebrate what "christians" call christmas than so called believers. Christmas is based on pagan ideas No it isn't! Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ, some elements of the traditions may have their roots in a pagan mid winter festival, trees and the like, but the incarnation and advent are certainly not pagan ideas. Now if you were talking about Easter, you'd have a stronger point. and was an encouragement for the sun to come back up! I like to see summer so I will celebrate to help it along as I wish (or wish not).

If your messiah was born at all he was born Sept/Oct, so rather than us heathens getting it wrong and having no right to celebrate at the end of the year it is YOU who are in the wrong.

This is not news to me. But I have a right to celebrate the birth of my saviour at some point during the year yeah? Why not the 25th of December?

Christian churches LIE shock?

Not really. Most of them have tried to keep folk in ignorance and told them whatever suited themselves even if inaccurate or indeed out and out lies.

 

I've never knowingly lied to anyone about my faith Geddy, I know churches have been guilty of some horrendous abuses in the past, even the recent past, but as I said earlier in the thread religion doesn't float my boat and the stuff churches do is part of that sometimes.

 

I don't follow a church though, I follow a man, his name is Jesus.

[geddy]

Thanks for your comments.

However depending on ones understanding of the bible depends on the salvation bit.

One can totally believe in Jesus but live a life at odds with Jeus' teachings and say they have "accepted" Jesus as their saviour. However the bible does also teach that faith without action is dead. (James 2: 17 I believe).

So technically just because you accept Jesus as a saviour does not mean you are "saved". Only by continuing to follow Jesus' teachings do you stay in his favour. That is what I believe JW's believe and from my reading seems perfectly sensible and correct.

Or do you not believe that just because you have accepted today, you can't go of the rails tomorrow?

 

To follow Christ you have to follow his teachings and ideas. If you are breaking the laws (more principles to be honest) then you really are not following him.

If you accept the bible then you have to accept that if you are gay, a fornicator, drunkard, idolator etc (I hit three of those pretty well) then you cannot be saved as Paul said those groups will NOT inherit the kingdom of God! Its a hard life if you TRULY want to follow Christ!

 

I would argue that most things done at Xmas are pagan. Just because some blokes high up in a church claim to have made it "holy" holds no truck with me.

If you want to celebrate his birth then you should do it at his birth. It would be like me telling you I was born in January....accepting your presents and partying. When you found out I was born in June you would wonder why I made up my story..."well I prefer January...lovely month, doesnt really matter if its right or not", would not I think be accepted by you or anyone else.

Strangely Jesus would not have celebrated birthdays anyways and would have found as a Jew the idea of celebrating his abhorrent.

I do believe that the bible does say "the day of death is more important than the day of ones birth". That is something if Jesus existed and followed his faith at all would have agreed with.

If you celebrate anything it should be his death. That is what supposedly brings us all the chance of salvation. Oh I don't mean Easter as thats as pagan as Xmas.....I mean remembering the last supper. Quite a different concept altogether.

[BadVlad]

The God of the OT and the God of the NT are exactly the same. What has changed is the testament or covenant between them. The way God relates is different. We are under a new covenant (agreement), bought with the blood of Christ.

 

 

The God of the OT and the God of the NT are exactly the same as the God of the Qu'uran. What has changed is the testament or covenant between them. The way God relates is different. We are under a new covenant (agreement), bought with the message of Mohammed (pbuh).

 

Aha - that would make KB too freaky.

[BigC]

I assume that all those on this thread who are sneering at other people's beliefs, particularly Christianity do not celebrate Christmas? If you do, does that not make you the biggest hypocrites?

 

[Captain Canada]

Best thing to do is never answer your door - works for me, it's only ever the wife's friends, preachers or people scrounging money under dubious pretences anyway!