Jesus freaks at my door

[Pete Seeger]

I refuse to worship a joiner, all of the ones I have worked with have been tossers.

 

Thats my thoughts. I bet Jesus wasn't the most helpful of chaps. He might have been able to pull fish from thin air but I bet he moaned at having to box pipes in.

[bigwull22]

tell the morons to *** right off back to the dark ages,and take their hocus pocus superstition with them, if reigion is of comfort to you as an individual then thats fine, dont try and ram your p**h down others throats.

[I.J]

Jesus wore a dress, and therefore loved the boaby.

 

I find it hard to believe anyone could take him seriously.

 

[The Doctor]

Perfect in terms of what? If you mean perfect in terms of each lifeform perfectly adapted to survive in it's own environment, then perfection will be reached in some cases where the environment is so isolated or remains unchanged for eons. Many lifeforms will not reach their perfect stage of evolution because their environment will change causing them to constantly evolve and remain in a state of flux. Or did you mean perfect as in heavenly where all men are equal, there is no war or poverty and everyone is happy in their lives?

 

By using the word supposed, you suggest that the world was created by something that had a plan. I disagree that the world was created by a being and would suggest it was probably made by natural occurring phenomena with no plan, no intention and no higher state of being so the word supposed is not relevant.

 

'Supposed' was the wrong word to use, you're right in that it assumes a sentience.

 

To try to clarify what I meant, if every species on earth is evolving and with particular reference to man, then wherever we are in this process of evolution at any point in time, we must be at the pinnacle of that process. Right now, man is at the pinnacle of his (or her) evolutionary process, this must be the case. I can accept that there will be fluctuations, I like Stokesy's assertion that he's passing his bad eyesight genes on, but in general the trend must be towards being fitter and stronger, smarter and better.

 

Is that how it feels?

[Acey]

Is that how it feels?

 

Considering that you and I will live for <100 years, I don't think we will have the experience to answer that question.

 

If forced, I don't see why we can't take our current standpoint as the highest point on the evolutionary slope.

[cosanostra]

'Supposed' was the wrong word to use, you're right in that it assumes a sentience.

 

To try to clarify what I meant, if every species on earth is evolving and with particular reference to man, then wherever we are in this process of evolution at any point in time, we must be at the pinnacle of that process. Right now, man is at the pinnacle of his (or her) evolutionary process, this must be the case. I can accept that there will be fluctuations, I like Stokesy's assertion that he's passing his bad eyesight genes on, but in general the trend must be towards being fitter and stronger, smarter and better.

 

Is that how it feels?

 

I guess every species would evolve to their most optimal state that maximised their ability to survive if their environments were completely isolated and there were no other factors that influenced their ecosystem. Factors like exposure to humans, disease, destruction of natural habitat, pollution, global warming etc mean that environments are changing so most species, such as humans, will never reach perfection. For example, in 5000 years, if the human race is still in existance and on earth, we may have greater natural tolerance to environmental polution and disease as we've evolved that way.

[cosanostra]

Also, we may not be fitter and more physically able as evolution progresses. As computer technology, artificial intelligence, robotics etc becomes more sophisticated, humans may require to do less menial, physical tasks that require physical strength or speed. We may evolve to be smaller and our bodies may be less powerful but maybe our mental abilities will increase and we'll be able to utilise parts of our brain that we still don't fully understand.

 

I realise that's a load of sci-fi stylee nonsense , just illustrating a point that we probably will be evolving as a species at the moment, but as for how is anyone's guess.

[The Doctor]

Genuine questions, not taking the ****, but please forgive the tone, I find this subject difficult to keep cool over.

 

How do you justify the clear contradictions between areas of the Bible. For example, the God in the old testament is, frankly, an awful awful being, killing people for little reason and demanding sacrfice, compared with the kind forgiving god of the New Testament?

 

The God of the OT and the God of the NT are exactly the same. What has changed is the testament or covenant between them. The way God relates is different. We are under a new covenant (agreement), bought with the blood of Christ. God put his own son to death for our sake, how fluffy and lovely is He now? A well known evangelical, Steve Chalke, got in enormous trouble a couple of years ago for writing a book that described the cross as cosmic child abuse. It has caused ructions in the church, Chalke was thrown off of several boards, people refused to share platforms (pulpits) with him, he ahd many speaking engagements cancelled, but I can see his point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Chalke#Controversy

 

There is also something to be said about the way Almighty God has been preached over the years. Some modern theologians have emphasised the gracious and forgiving aspects of God's character at the expense of the holy, righteous and vengeful aspects of God. God remains holy, God remains judge and sovereign over us. If you had sat in a Presbyterian kirk a hundred years ago and heard a 'fire and brimstone' sermon you may not think there's as much of a difference as you do.

 

Whilst God does not change our understanding of God evolves and changes often. It is as susceptible to the vagaries of fashion as philosophy, psychology even hard science.

 

Also, the clear contradictions between the "synoptic" gospels themselves?

 

I don't agree that they are contradictions, you could say the same of two newspaper reports of the same football match, they don't always report things the same way. The gospels were written at different times and aimed at different people groups, some bits were inspired by (copied from) other gospels (much of Matthew and Luke is probably drawn from Mark's gospel), but Matthew is aimed at educated Jews, Mark at gentiles, Luke tries to bring all the information he could gather together and writes for all believers, even if his gospel is directed to his friend. The fourth gospel, probably the last written, is more thoughtful, philosophical and has a more developed theology.

 

I don't see contradictions that negate the truth held within. There are many contradictions in life, ask any parent how much they love their kids and then offer to take them to beach for the afternoon to give the parents a break! I'd say that was a paradox and life is full of paradoxes. Not surprisingly Christian faith and Christian theology then is full of paradoxes.

 

How can you claim that the bible is the word of god when it advocates acts and principles you cannot possibly subscribe to? For example, there is a passage in there which says something along the lines of, 'keeping a slave is acceptable as long as he/she is released after 7 years of service'.....? Not to mention the various sacrifices and massacres god demands, particularly in the old testament....

 

As I've said the agreement and so the relationship between God and man changed.

 

I also cant understand this ability of people to pick and choose which parts of the bible to accept. Surely, if this is the word of god, it must all be right or all be wrong. If you start picking what to believe, you may as well throw it out the window. It is hypocritical to say love thy neighbour (which incidentally does not mean neighbour in its current usage, but fellow jew), and then be against the slaughter of non believers....

 

This is just not true, of course you pick and choose. This is not some list of rules and regulations handed down by a scary but benevolent overseer. This is a dynamic and real relationship with the living God, made possible by the death of Jesus as our substitute on the cross.

 

Jesus then passes on His authority to us, whatever is loosed by us on earth will be loosed in heaven and whatever is bound by us on earth will be bound in heaven. God expects this from us and empowers us through the Holy Spirit to make these decisions. We are supposed to wrestle with the scriptures, we are supposed to question them, to discuss them, to argue and debate and come to a conclusion.

 

There are parts of the bible that are clearly cultural (the passages on slaves for example), but there are still principles that we can learn from (How does an employer treat his employees? Do we exploit the poor? Should we embrace fair trade?) There are passages that are poetry, songs, parables and there are some historical facts. We are not supposed to take it all literally, that would be ridiculous and nonsensical. We are supposed to interpret it. When Jesus tells the parable of the man with the plank in his eye does there have to be a man with a plank in his eye?

 

Did Jesus really walk on water? I don't know, but I know what it means.

Did Adam and Eve really live in a fabulous garden and name all the animals? I don't know, but I know what it means.

Was Mary really a virgin? I don't know, but I know what it means?

 

I could go on all day......

 

You can go on all day if you like, I'm going to bed, but I hope I've answered some of your questions. You seem awful angry about Christianity. If you want to meet up for a pint and chat about it, feel free to PM me. (That's an open invitation!)

[The Doctor]

Jesus wore a dress, and therefore loved the boaby.

 

I find it hard to believe anyone could take him seriously.

 

 

You wear a dress and your boyfriend loves it.

 

How serious do you feel now?

[cosanostra]

Interesting stuff doctor.

 

We have plenty kickbackers who slaughter religeon and christianity. It's cool to hear the other side of things from a reasonable bloke like yourself.

[The Doctor]

Interesting stuff doctor.

 

We have plenty kickbackers who slaughter religeon and christianity. It's cool to hear the other side of things from a reasonable bloke like yourself.

 

Right up to my last post Cosa!

 

[BigC]

You can go on all day if you like, I'm going to bed, but I hope I've answered some of your questions. You seem awful angry about Christianity. If you want to meet up for a pint and chat about it, feel free to PM me. (That's an open invitation!)

 

Dont do it! He's trying to convert you into one of them!

 

 

You are feeling Jeeeesuuuussss....

[BigC]

In all serious, if you are looking to find out more about the arguments put forward by proponents of the "Intellegent Design" "Theory", and the arguments used to debunk the theory... This is a good starting point:

 

 

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3LgqEz_3Bzs&feature=related

 

 

It's a BBC documentary and it includes interviews with all the major players in the Dover trial in 2005 (where parents sued the heavily Christian school board to stop them teaching Creationism in schools).

[The Doctor]

Dont do it! He's trying to convert you into one of them!

 

 

You are feeling Jeeeesuuuussss....

 

And you have foiled my master plan, damn you!

 

May my vengeful God strike you down and make you pay for your unbelief, you heathen swine.

 

Anyway kidnapping and psychological torture is more my thing than hypnotism.

 

Damn you made me give myself away! Damn you swine!

 

Duck tape is wonderful stuff...

[Moriarty]

[BigC]

Duck tape is wonderful stuff...

 

One of my mates always makes jokes about gaffer tape every time he sees a girl he fancies....

 

I won't repeat it as I value my 0% warning level.

[Bindy Badgy]

I guess every species would evolve to their most optimal state that maximised their ability to survive if their environments were completely isolated and there were no other factors that influenced their ecosystem.

 

Specis don't evolve to reach an optimal state. Being better than their competitors is enough.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn13640-evolution-myths-evolution-produces-perfectly-adapted-creatures.html

[Jamie_the_Jambo]

My thoughts which disproves the creationist theory is quite a simple one.

 

God supposedly created the earth in 6 days and rested on the Sabbath.

 

Now I cant believe for one minute that someone would work for 6 days and stop on the Sunday when everyone knows Sundays are double time.

 

End of.

 

Cant wait to grow my wings by the way. How cool would that be.

 

Jamie

[Tynie b]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19819/jehovah-s-witnesses-31&rel=NOFOLLOW

 

In god's hands.

 

PS - In the case of minors, the decision is taken away from them by means of a court order (if necessary). And quite rightly too.

 

.

 

See, That article itself makes me so Ferkin Angry, They listen or believe some made up ****ey God,there only to brainwash people,Now 2 babies have no Mother when she could EASILY have been helped...She would have been Shunned by other JW's, So F****** What,Probably the best thing that could have happened to her, at least she would be there for her kids, and if her "Grieving Husband"(My Arse) was any kind of man atall, Not a Brainwashed Moron, he would have made sure she was treated properly and been with her and Their kids for a long time!!

 

They should take the Kids into care, These people don't deserve to breed...Freaks, the lot of them!!

 

Rant (Almost) Over!!

 

I believe that these People, Mormons, JW's, Scientologists etc...Only Now follow "Their God" because they are Guilty of something, Pervs, Murderers or Just Simply can't live in a normal society...Before anyone starts I know people who are Mormons...Freaks, The lot of them!!

[Craig R]

Here's a couple of interesting things...

 

If you believe in evolution and no God then the world as a system must be at the most perfect and evolved place it can be at this moment in time. People must be more highly evolved than their ancient ancestors, better adapted, smarter and stronger. Maybe 8,000 years of history is not enough to make a comparison, regardless, the world must be exactly as it's supposed to be right now.

 

Christians assert that the world is not as it should be, that it has gone wrong, that the human race (in particular, but less specifically all of creation) has become broken and perverse.

 

Which world view feels more accurate?

 

What are you basing this assumption on? Why should evolution make things absolutely perfect? Sounds like nonsense to me.

 

I would suggest that your "God" should be more likely to make things perfect and as they should be. He is supposedly the magical, all powerful, loving, wonderful creator after all. If he wants something done he can do it. He made a planet in seven days after all, just cos he felt like it.

[coppercrutch]

This thread is interesting. Seems fair game to abuse many religions out there like Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc.... If you look into things however you will find that one of the most creepy and ****ed up religions going is the Catholic Church.

 

However as I have said for many years a religion is just a cult that has reached a certain size.

 

There is nothing more 'strange' or 'brainwashed' about the Mormons or Jehovahs compared to the Church of England or Catholic church.

 

To think that you must be, well... brainwashed.

 

How ironic.

[Tynie b]

This thread is interesting. Seems fair game to abuse many religions out there like Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc.... If you look into things however you will find that one of the most creepy and ****ed up religions going is the Catholic Church.

 

However as I have said for many years a religion is just a cult that has reached a certain size.

 

There is nothing more 'strange' or 'brainwashed' about the Mormons or Jehovahs compared to the Church of England or Catholic church.

 

To think that you must be, well... brainwashed.

 

How ironic.

 

Mate, I'm not Brainwashed into any religion, I don't believe in any of these Made up Gods, Jebus the Joiner or Loaves and Fishies stories, As I've said, Something to hide or socially inadiquate....Catholic, Proddies, Jehova, Mormon you name it, it's all complete Bull in my book!!

[bigwull22]

This thread is interesting. Seems fair game to abuse many religions out there like Jehovah witnesses, Mormons etc.... If you look into things however you will find that one of the most creepy and ****ed up religions going is the Catholic Church.

 

However as I have said for many years a religion is just a cult that has reached a certain size.

 

There is nothing more 'strange' or 'brainwashed' about the Mormons or Jehovahs compared to the Church of England or Catholic church.

 

To think that you must be, well... brainwashed.

 

How ironic.

 

All religion is brainwashing, to a certain extent some are worse than others, any deeply religious person,if you are ever in conversation with them,have a mad look in their eyes, I find that disturbing, and they sometimes seem to be allowed to govern

[coppercrutch]

Mate, I'm not Brainwashed into any religion, I don't believe in any of these Made up Gods, Jebus the Joiner or Loaves and Fishies stories, As I've said, Something to hide or socially inadiquate....Catholic, Proddies, Jehova, Mormon you name it, it's all complete Bull in my book!!

 

Fair enough I just thought you were picking on certain ones !!

 

I agree, I think most of it is tosh. Whatever religion you are talking about. However I reckon people just suck it in for something to believe in. Gives them a reason to live and get on with things. I personally don't need that but many people do. If they want to believe in fish and loaves and the parting of the seas then up to them !!

 

Main problem with religion is the amount of wars and suffering it causes. But then on the other hand many religions do very good charitable work (Much of it out of the public eye) and without them many places in this World would be in a far worse situation.

 

Tough one really. Main question is this IMO:

 

Has religion done more bad than good ?

 

Not a questions anyone can really answer I imagine.

[coppercrutch]

All religion is brainwashing, to a certain extent some are worse than others, any deeply religious person,if you are ever in conversation with them,have a mad look in their eyes, I find that disturbing, and they sometimes seem to be allowed to govern

 

Definitely. I have known many. Some are prefectly reasonable people, you can discuss their religion with them and they are open to questions criticisms etc... However some are just clearly mental.

 

But then there are mental people everywhere in this World. Why would religion be any different ?

 

I imagine it just gives them the perfect standpoint to act mental and for it to be almost acceptable..

[The Doctor]

What are you basing this assumption on? Why should evolution make things absolutely perfect? Sounds like nonsense to me.

 

I never said absolutely perfect, I suggested that whenever you examine the system it must be at it's nadir. I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. I'm not talking about something that is finished or complete, even at the end of the process, but at this point in time the evolutionary process must be at it's peak.

 

I would suggest that your "God" should be more likely to make things perfect and as they should be. He is supposedly the magical, all powerful, loving, wonderful creator after all. If he wants something done he can do it. He made a planet in seven days after all, just cos he felt like it.

 

He did, he made it perfect and we messed it up, that's the story you'll read in the first chapters of the bible. But the good news is that God is all about restoration. He has made a way for the world to be restored and for us to be restored, to ourselves, to each other and to Him.

 

I would suggest that the main cause of problems in this world are not that God doesn't want to do something about it, He did already, but that people would rather go their own way, do their own thing, please and satisfy themselves than regard anything God might want to say to them. Which is the problem in the first place.

 

Judges 21:25 "Everyone did that which was right in their own eyes"

[The Doctor]

All religion is brainwashing, to a certain extent some are worse than others, any deeply religious person,if you are ever in conversation with them,have a mad look in their eyes, I find that disturbing, and they sometimes seem to be allowed to govern

 

I just wanted to pick up on something in this post, there are an inordinate number of people with mental health problems who are attracted to the church. I could tell you some stories! Why is that though?

 

I believe it's for two main reasons, people with mental health problems are often left isolated and marginalised in their communities, they are rejected and written off even feared and afforded little worth. I'm not just talking about people who are schizophrenic or bi-polar, even people who struggle with depression can feel isolated and alone. I'm sure most of us know someone who has suffered in this way, many will have experienced it themselves. The church often provides a safe and comfortable place for people who can't find a welcoming community, because Christians believe that everyone has a great inherent worth they are treated as equals, listened to and respected. I don't think that church is unique in this and not all people with a mental health problem will find their way to a church, many, even most, will have caring and patient families and friends who will love and care for them no matter how ill they are, but for those who don't the church can be a haven.

 

The reason that the church does this, or at least should do this is because the church is the body of Christ, it functions in the way that Jesus did when he was living directly among us. Jesus spent his time with people who were isolated, marginalised and rejected. The sick, the mentally ill, the disabled, prostitutes, thieves, the poor, widows, children. People who had little or no status in the community. The church should be doing that today, that's why so many churches are at the forefront of charitable endeavour, that's why the church has a long and impressive history of charitable work, not to win favour with God, but as a response to what Christ did for us.

 

I also want to say that the church is not full of simple, mentally ill, charity cases. I know many very smart and together people who are Christians, doctors, even a consultant paediatrician, lawyers, architects, several professors, people in senior management, successful businessmen etc etc. I run a house group in which I am the only person (I think) who's not a graduate (yet).

[i8hibsh]

Dropped by 10 minutes ago to tell me about the love that Jesus can offer me apparently.

 

Their key points were that

 

1. Evolution is not real. If it was, people would still be evolving into "fish or monkeys" and we would be "growing wings from our backs".

 

2. The position and alignment of our solar system is proof that they were designed by an almighty creator called God.

 

3. Nobody saw evolution happen so there's no proof that it happened. Nobody saw God exist either but proof is not needed for that because they just know he's there.

 

4. Dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible because they play no significant role in the story of Jesus and the creation of the earth.

 

5. The bible was not actually written by god but it was written on his behalf by 40 men who were his "secretaries" in the same way as a "boss might dictate letters to his employee".

 

6. Christianity is true, all other religeons are wrong because bloke A said he's "looked into it" and was convinced by the "facts" he had found.

 

 

First of all, why are these lunatics allowed to walk the streets and why are they not in a secure home for the mentally disadvantaged or brain washed? Secondly, why do they think it's ok to annoy people on a Sunday and attempt to preach this utter madness to the public?

What do you guys say to these nutters when they ring your doorbell?

 

 

If they invaded my doorstep I would have shot them point blank in the face

 

Or more likely told them to GTF

 

A Harry Potter book is more believable to me than the bible

[Bigsmak]

Here's a couple of interesting things...

 

If you believe in evolution and no God then the world as a system must be at the most perfect and evolved place it can be at this moment in time. People must be more highly evolved than their ancient ancestors, better adapted, smarter and stronger. Maybe 8,000 years of history is not enough to make a comparison, regardless, the world must be exactly as it's supposed to be right now.

 

Christians assert that the world is not as it should be, that it has gone wrong, that the human race (in particular, but less specifically all of creation) has become broken and perverse.

 

Which world view feels more accurate?

 

Sorry if this is a bit long and disjointed. Its hard to type what I'm trying to say!

 

I 'believe' (it's an interesting word isn't it?) in Evolution. My proof that I've seen happen? The Dutch. They're tall, and getting taller all the time. The tall ones breed with other tall ones and the kids are even taller. Its fact (provable over the last 150 years) that we, as a race, are getting taller all the time. It is evolution at its most basic level.

 

Anyway, The idea that the world has by accident become the perfect place that we live in is a flawed one. It was going to be like this whether we were here or not. It hasn't become like this for us. We, as a species were just the most suited to live here.

 

My point is (and its blooming hard one to make) An intelligent fish would look at his world (underwater) and say, wow, this living environment is perfect for me... Was it an accident or did someone create it that way. They would probably not know about the people that lived out of the water and would have little comprehension, if any, that life was blossoming outside the water.

 

From our point of view, we know about the fish and we respect that the fish are perfectly suited to live in the water. Just as we are suited to live on Earth. Horses for courses (or fishes for swimming or something)...

 

So what I am trying to say is that, the Earth / Universe isn't a perfect place to live, we just happen to be the the species most apt to live in it. If the Earth had more sulphur in the air or less oxygen, it would be another species discussing the merits of Gods etc.

 

All pure chance.

[coppercrutch]

Right now, man is at the pinnacle of his (or her) evolutionary process, this must be the case.....Is that how it feels?

 

Not in Drumchapel.....

 

[irontart]

Be very careful when these people come to your door.....generally they dont have full time jobs and sponge of others to live......so on weekends they invade the streets knocking at your door distracting you whist others are round the back eying up your crockery and brasses!!!! watch out especially for bald one with beady eyes and lots of kids who dont go to school!!! filth

[Jambofaebirth]

Here's a couple of interesting things...

 

If you believe in evolution and no God then the world as a system must be at the most perfect and evolved place it can be at this moment in time. People must be more highly evolved than their ancient ancestors, better adapted, smarter and stronger. Maybe 8,000 years of history is not enough to make a comparison, regardless, the world must be exactly as it's supposed to be right now.

 

Christians assert that the world is not as it should be, that it has gone wrong, that the human race (in particular, but less specifically all of creation) has become broken and perverse.

 

Which world view feels more accurate?

 

You seem to be over complicating evolution a bit here. It is actually a very simple process, with no purpose or strive for perfection. A creature that has evolved for a million years is not necessarily going to be better in a quantifiable, physical way. It is likely however be better adapted to the environment it exists in.

All that that the theory of evolution says at its most basic level is that if you have a group of animals (or plants, bacteria etc.) any which have an advantage over the others in the group that makes them more able to survive and breed will pass these advantages on to the next generation. Over time these advantages will naturally become more common because of there increased likelihood to be passed on.

There are literally millions of examples of this, from breeds of dogs to the MRSA superbug, but my favourite occured on an island in the atlantic. In the early 1400s (the dates are a bit hazy but this is a true story) a ship ran aground on an uncharted island. The rats on the ship abandoned it and inhabited the island which was split into two areas - white beach and black volcanic. The darker coloured of the rats were more likely to survive in the rocks and the lighter coloured on the beach for obvious reasons. When the island was next discovered in (I think) the 1800s there were two different breeds of rats, one all black and the other all white each inhabiing there own area of the island.

I apologise for the length of this post, but evolution is something i feel quite strongly about - not that you could tell or anything.............

[maroonlegions]

so were do ETs or alien life forms fit into all major religions , if they were ever discovered or contacted or even landed:eek:, all scientific , religious points of view would be blown apart , just say they (ETs) made it clear that all religions and scientific apotheosis's were way of the mark and had proof of that, indeed there have been some people that claim to have been contacted and the above was indeed said , one was told that," WE ARE ALL GOD , THERE IS NO BEGINNING OR END , WE ALL JUST ARE , HAVE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE US AND THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS DEATH ,ONLY A TRANSGRESSION TO ANOTHER VIBRATIONAL , FREQUENCY LEVEL , in fact it was hinted that WE are the makers of our own destiny , WE and no one else can change what we want from exsistance , they said it was just FREE WILL..Now if the above is even slightly true it makes things a lot more interesting given the fact that we have NO ONE TO BLAME for our mistakes but our selfs, rather we have the uncomfortable thought that no god or angle will save us from the choices we make from the free will we have , this i think is the wisdom and beauty of it , we learn from it as i think we have to ,to fully understand our own actions and outcomes from life's experience's so that we can EVOLVE in to a higher state of being and that is more precious i think than relying on some religious deity to make our choices for us and have CONTROL over us, religions exist on controlling by installing FEAR (hell) to take away our FREE WILL and discouraging us from finding out about our selfs and who we truly are , imagine that WE all are god and always have and will be , no one to answer or BLAME to but ourselfs , mmm, whole new ball game there eh.

[Pants Shaton]

Here's a couple of interesting things...

 

If you believe in evolution and no God then the world as a system must be at the most perfect and evolved place it can be at this moment in time. People must be more highly evolved than their ancient ancestors, better adapted, smarter and stronger. Maybe 8,000 years of history is not enough to make a comparison, regardless, the world must be exactly as it's supposed to be right now.

 

Christians assert that the world is not as it should be, that it has gone wrong, that the human race (in particular, but less specifically all of creation) has become broken and perverse.

 

Which world view feels more accurate?

 

Even if you infuse evolution with a final purpose then your argument is unsound; as it implies a better time existed than the current epoch. Of course, evolution has no 'purpose' as we understand the term and human beings no more represent the 'end point' of evolution than currently existing bacteria. Naturally occurring genetic mutations survive in subsequent generations where they provide a selective advantage in reproduction - that is all. With respect to genetic influences on human behaviour, it should not surprise us that the stable state is one in which aggression and altruism have reached a certain equilibrium - anything else would compromise the likelihood of reproductive success. You conflate evolution by natural selection with the flawed concept of perfectibility in human nature.

 

The world has not become broken or perverse it has always been thus. The philosopher John Gray, whilst rejecting the truth of the Abrahamic religions, also rightly pours scorn on liberal, secular faith in human progress. Christianity, sets an unattainable goal of human conduct, which can result in nothing other than shame and guilt. It devalues our one and only opportunity to live with its false, and rigidly conditional, promise of immortality.

 

We are animals, uniquely cursed and blessed with an unprecedented level of consciousness. Through this, we have the opportunity to develop our civilization and transcend our biological impulses. Nothing further is gained by combining weak philosophical arguments for God with Middle Eastern myths (often morally repugnant and frequently contradictory). Misappropriating arguments from biology certainly doesn't lend it extra respectability.

[paulah]

My Gran told me years ago to always tell them you are a good practising catholic and i swear it works every time.They run for their lives

[The Doctor]

Even if you infuse evolution with a final purpose then your argument is unsound; as it implies a better time existed than the current epoch. Of course, evolution has no 'purpose' as we understand the term and human beings no more represent the 'end point' of evolution than currently existing bacteria. Naturally occurring genetic mutations survive in subsequent generations where they provide a selective advantage in reproduction - that is all. With respect to genetic influences on human behaviour, it should not surprise us that the stable state is one in which aggression and altruism have reached a certain equilibrium - anything else would compromise the likelihood of reproductive success. You conflate evolution by natural selection with the flawed concept of perfectibility in human nature.

 

That wasn't what I meant at all, I never suggested evolution has a purpose in that regard. "aggression and altruism have reached a certain equilibrium - anything else would compromise the likelihood of reproductive success", is that how your world looks? Try telling that to a 15 year old who's just found out she's pregnant, "don't worry your pregnancy should be expected because aggression and altruism have reached an equilibrium".

I never said that evolution would lead to perfection, I suggested that the system of evolution must bring us to where we are, as we are, at the pinnacle of the evolutionary process to this point in time.

It was never meant to be an argument to disprove evolution, why would I do that? I'm not a creationist, I have no interest in trying to disprove evolution. You're very defensive.

 

The world has not become broken or perverse it has always been thus. The philosopher John Gray, whilst rejecting the truth of the Abrahamic religions, also rightly pours scorn on liberal, secular faith in human progress. Christianity, sets an unattainable goal of human conduct, which can result in nothing other than shame and guilt. It devalues our one and only opportunity to live with its false, and rigidly conditional, promise of immortality.

 

Good for John Gray, but I don't really think he's qualified to speak on the results of Christian belief. It's only his opinion, he's rejected Christianity, what can he know of life In Christ? I feel no shame or guilt. I don't believe that Christianity sets an unattainable goal of human conduct at all. That sounds like an excuse for selfish behaviour to me. Some people will try to justify their bad behaviour any way they can! (As I said, 'everyone did that which was right in their own eyes') I refute his assertion that immortality is false and to say it's rigidly conditional shows a lack of theological understanding.

 

We are animals, uniquely cursed and blessed with an unprecedented level of consciousness. Through this, we have the opportunity to develop our civilization and transcend our biological impulses. Nothing further is gained by combining weak philosophical arguments for God with Middle Eastern myths (often morally repugnant and frequently contradictory). Misappropriating arguments from biology certainly doesn't lend it extra respectability.

 

My question was not meant to be a misappropriated argument from biology at all, merely a discussion point, thank you for your opinion, but why are you so defensive about it? If your position is so secure why do you feel the need to put down mine so strongly? Misrepresenting me, dismissing Christian belief as a weak philosophy combined with Middle Eastern myth. It's insulting and it does you no credit.

 

I would like to ask though, if we are animals where does your morality come from. As a student of John Gray, I assume you dismiss humanism as he appears to, so how does our unique level of consciousness lead to developing our civilization and transcending our biological impulses. How do know when we've got there?

 

Is it just a case of doing what you think is right?

[tynie1874]

guess it's the nun's bet they've been aboot

[Ulysses]

....dismissing Christian belief as a weak philosophy combined with Middle Eastern myth.....

 

Agreed. Christianity isn't a weak philosophy combined with Middle Eastern myth. It's a strong set of ideas made up of basic principles of human decency combined with Middle Eastern myth. Nothing wrong with that, except for the god bit at its core.

 

 

How do know when we've got there?

 

Got where?

 

Is it just a case of doing what you think is right?

 

In a sense, yes. If we do what we think is right, what we call "morality" will generally influence us in the direction of civilised behaviour. This won't happen 100% of the time, because "morality" is strongly influenced by our physical and social environment. However, if that environment is sufficiently supportive, our "morality" will tend to allow us to find a reasonable combination of self-interest and self-reliance on the one hand with shared interest and interdependence on the other. That "morality" does not depend on Christianity or any other religious or philosophical belief system - people have the same tendency to display moral, immoral or amoral traits regardless of faith or nationality.

 

And there is evidence of "Darwinian" reasons for the emergence of "morality" in humans. In Darwinian terms, homo sapiens evolved with a high degree of cognitive reasoning, consciousness and the capacity to share information and resources - and needing those for survival. The survival of the species depends on using this mixture of abilities in the best way possible - i.e. to maximise opportunities to live, eat and reproduce. Sometimes that requires selfish acts, while at other times it requires communal or collaborative behaviour. So it is reasonable to expect that individuals and groups will find a balance of "selfish" and "selfless" behaviours that will work to the best advantage of the species. That is more or less what humans do.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

I assume that all those on this thread who are sneering at other people's beliefs, particularly Christianity do not celebrate Christmas? If you do, does that not make you the biggest hypocrites?

[cosanostra]

I assume that all those on this thread who are sneering at other people's beliefs, particularly Christianity do not celebrate Christmas? If you do, does that not make you the biggest hypocrites?

 

Disagree.

 

I think the vast majority of people in the UK see Christmas as merely a holiday with time off work, a chance to spend time with loved ones and give each other gifts and don't even spare a thought for the religous aspects. It's more of a tradition than a religous celebration nowadays.

[coppercrutch]

Disagree.

 

I think the vast majority of people in the UK see Christmas as merely a holiday with time off work, a chance to spend time with loved ones and give each other gifts and don't even spare a thought for the religous aspects. It's more of a tradition than a religous celebration nowadays.

 

I would agree it is more of a tradition. When people go to other countries on holiday they take part in various festivals. That doesn't mean they have to become a member of whatever religion/organisation is celebrating the event.

 

Just because you light a few candles for Divali in Calcutta doesn't make you a hindu !!

 

I think the same can be said of the UK and Christmas.

[The Doctor]

Agreed. Christianity isn't a weak philosophy combined with Middle Eastern myth. It's a strong set of ideas made up of basic principles of human decency combined with Middle Eastern myth. Nothing wrong with that, except for the god bit at its core.

 

 

 

 

Got where?

Just to this point in the evolutionary process, which may in fact not be a process at all apparently!

 

 

 

In a sense, yes. If we do what we think is right, what we call "morality" will generally influence us in the direction of civilised behaviour. This won't happen 100% of the time, because "morality" is strongly influenced by our physical and social environment. However, if that environment is sufficiently supportive, our "morality" will tend to allow us to find a reasonable combination of self-interest and self-reliance on the one hand with shared interest and interdependence on the other. That "morality" does not depend on Christianity or any other religious or philosophical belief system - people have the same tendency to display moral, immoral or amoral traits regardless of faith or nationality.

 

And there is evidence of "Darwinian" reasons for the emergence of "morality" in humans. In Darwinian terms, homo sapiens evolved with a high degree of cognitive reasoning, consciousness and the capacity to share information and resources - and needing those for survival. The survival of the species depends on using this mixture of abilities in the best way possible - i.e. to maximise opportunities to live, eat and reproduce. Sometimes that requires selfish acts, while at other times it requires communal or collaborative behaviour. So it is reasonable to expect that individuals and groups will find a balance of "selfish" and "selfless" behaviours that will work to the best advantage of the species. That is more or less what humans do.

 

Thanks Uly for an interesting, reasoned and clear explanation of a secular view of the origins of morality. I think there are huge questions over what right that gives us to judge criminal behaviour, for example, but I suppose even murder is not considered absolutely wrong in every circumstance, in war for example it's actively encouraged!

 

Obviously I believe our moral code comes from God, inherent in every human being, for me, that's why we're so repulsed (and fascinated) by those psychopaths with apparently no morality. But I accept that your reasoning makes sense of this also.

[Boris]

I tend to say that I am an aethiest and a Marxist which usually ends any parley with them.

[Era Macaroons]

Interesting debate.

 

For my tuppance worth I think all animals/plants have simply 'evolved'.Did Neanderthol man need religion ? no, he needed food and shelter to the best of his ability.

 

Religion/Gods was part of this evolution as a means to explain Earthquakes/Eclipses/no rain for crops/etc when man had no answers to such questions and also served as a means to control the ignorant population for a few thousand years.

 

P.S the earth is flat by the way

 

and to the OP

 

I hate it when the God squad (from whatever religion) turn up at the door. Why they heck do they think that it is acceptable to approach you in your own home and spout THEIR beliefs to you!! FO. I'LL approach YOU if Im interested.

 

They must have a pretty dire success rate!!

 

Also,I'm sure going to church/mosque etc has its place as some people find comfort in this and quite frankly its somewhere to go and 'do' things, meet peolpe and socialise in a nice and pleasant manner.kind of like 'the pub' for over 50's.

[Phage]

The only way id join there fruity little club is if some real stunners came round in their skimpys. Mrs Jambo would be a little annoyed but god would heal my soul, right ?

[The People's Chimp]

Dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible are they? Can't say i've ever heard that before. What Chapter / verse would that be?

 

I know that JH's are not exactly Christian but they are very similar. They did say they were JHs but they also said they came round to tell me about the love that Jesus could offer me.

 

I'd also like to know what the evidence against evolution is, i'm genuinely interested to read about that.

 

Evidence here.

 

[The People's Chimp]

I tend to say that I am an aethiest and a Marxist which usually ends any parley with them.

 

You can also help them on their way by saying that jesus was the original communist. They tend to love that.

[neave]

Firstly while not a Christian myself 'Jesus Freaks' is a pretty derogatory term. As my parents are involved quite a bit in their church I do find it slightly offensive.

 

However I understand there is mentalists in all religions. Sure these weren't Jehovah Witnesses? as Christians rarely go round doors.

 

Secondly there is alot of evidence against evolution, it is only a theory afterall, so much so that recently it is being challenged more about how it is taught in schools.

 

Lastly I think you'll find dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible.

There's always one.

[Cigaro]

Can I just say that a flying spaghetti monster really appeals to me.

[this_is_my_story]

The Doctor...

I must at first stress that it is in no way my intention to 'stir things up' on this thread, I'm not religious myself, and therefore don't often like or choose to become involved in any such debate.

 

Having read yours and everyone else's contribution to the thread, it's very evident that you're far from stupid. And this is why I really am amazed at the number of times you refer to God and Jesus as if their existence had actually been proven beyond doubt - I refer to the way in which you talk, for example, of how 'Jesus spent his time with people who were isolated, marginalised...' and in the way you responded to one poster who had suggested that God had not created our planet - 'He did, he made it perfect and we messed it up'.

 

A question I'd really like you to answer is this. Do you refuse to rule out the possibility that there has indeed never been a God, or Jesus, or some form of higher being that created ourselves and the world? I don't know if you do or not - try to understand that you believe in your faith because you choose to believe in it. You choose to believe in it. Some other people don't. And, remembering how the thread actually started, that is exactly the reason we're discussing it in the first place.

 

I genuinely do hold nothing whatsoever against people who hold such a strong faith - I really just think they're a wee bit soft in the head to swallow the whole thing. I'm not suggesting that every Christian has had the belief imposed, for want of a better word, on them, however, many are 'schooled' into the way of thinking by other Christians. Where this does not apply, the believer has nonetheless similarly been schooled - by the Bible. Yet again, I must stress that I have no problem with this, if people feel they can take something out of it, than that's fine for them.

 

As we all know our world is far from a perfect place - it's way too far fetched to think that it was ever going to be so. Religion is in no small way accountable for a lot of the ills on our planet. You don't have to be a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist to be a good and moralistic person. By our very nature, and our emotions, and our ability to perceive the emotions of others, we humans are largely good people, we know what is 'right' and 'wrong'. And I believe that this would be so without any religion of any kind ever having originated.

 

In most cases, I'd think it's fair to say that religion has only been brought forth by man's belief that there must have been a creator of the planet we live on, of the stars in the sky above us - of course, with most religions being somewhat ancient, this would be at a point in time where man did not have the scientific knowledge to understand how life was really created.