Doc Rob Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Have been having a (metaphorical) square go with a Sevco fan on a different forum. Quite an eye-opener. Apparently Hearts fans don’t get to criticise Rangers because we did the same thing they did. The logic seems to be that VR signed players to Kaunas and loaned them to Hearts to avoid tax, which is almost certainly true, and that this is ‘just the same’ as the EBT scheme used by Rangers as a secret means of systematic tax evasion over many years. Obviously this is utter nonsense (VR didn’t even try to hide what he was doing, for a start), but the guy claimed that we ‘did a deal’ with HMRC to reduce our PAYE bill, whereas Rangers were ‘used as a test case’ and that’s why they couldn’t get a CVA. This got me thinking. Did we ever pay Hector the money we owed? The ‘deal’ mentioned was a phased repayment plan to pay off the full sum, but then we went into admin the next year. HMRC don’t accept CVAs, but they were a minor creditor compared to UBIG (we owed them £1.7m out of £30m or so). Having said that, if HMRC thought that HMFC still owed them money, I suspect they would still be pursuing us for it now. We’re still the same club, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tynietigers Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I think we might of paid the first £500 grand instalment ? but that might be all in my head ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fxxx the SPFL Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Doc Rob said: Have been having a (metaphorical) square go with a Sevco fan on a different forum. Quite an eye-opener. Apparently Hearts fans don’t get to criticise Rangers because we did the same thing they did. The logic seems to be that VR signed players to Kaunas and loaned them to Hearts to avoid tax, which is almost certainly true, and that this is ‘just the same’ as the EBT scheme used by Rangers as a secret means of systematic tax evasion over many years. Obviously this is utter nonsense (VR didn’t even try to hide what he was doing, for a start), but the guy claimed that we ‘did a deal’ with HMRC to reduce our PAYE bill, whereas Rangers were ‘used as a test case’ and that’s why they couldn’t get a CVA. This got me thinking. Did we ever pay Hector the money we owed? The ‘deal’ mentioned was a phased repayment plan to pay off the full sum, but then we went into admin the next year. HMRC don’t accept CVAs, but they were a minor creditor compared to UBIG (we owed them £1.7m out of £30m or so). Having said that, if HMRC thought that HMFC still owed them money, I suspect they would still be pursuing us for it now. We’re still the same club, after all. We definitely paid off all the debts I think except the hector one unless that's been getting done quietly in the background Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Doc Rob said: Have been having a (metaphorical) square go with a Sevco fan on a different forum. Quite an eye-opener. Apparently Hearts fans don’t get to criticise Rangers because we did the same thing they did. The logic seems to be that VR signed players to Kaunas and loaned them to Hearts to avoid tax, which is almost certainly true, and that this is ‘just the same’ as the EBT scheme used by Rangers as a secret means of systematic tax evasion over many years. Obviously this is utter nonsense (VR didn’t even try to hide what he was doing, for a start), but the guy claimed that we ‘did a deal’ with HMRC to reduce our PAYE bill, whereas Rangers were ‘used as a test case’ and that’s why they couldn’t get a CVA. This got me thinking. Did we ever pay Hector the money we owed? The ‘deal’ mentioned was a phased repayment plan to pay off the full sum, but then we went into admin the next year. HMRC don’t accept CVAs, but they were a minor creditor compared to UBIG (we owed them £1.7m out of £30m or so). Having said that, if HMRC thought that HMFC still owed them money, I suspect they would still be pursuing us for it now. We’re still the same club, after all. He's confused about the circumstances at Rangers. Their CVA was nothing to do with the EBT scheme. Their tax bill at the time of administration was mainly as a result of unpaid VAT and NI contributions, as Whyte was withholding payments to try and prop up Rangers' cashflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridge of Djoum Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I paid it. Close thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brunoatemyhamster Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) Did you ask him if their outstanding tax liabilities were purchased with their history ? Since its the same club and that. Ask him. Edited October 3, 2018 by brunoatemyhamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Rob Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 27 minutes ago, brunoatemyhamster said: Did you ask him if their outstanding tax liabilities were purchased with their history ? Since its the same club and that. Ask him. TBH I already wiped the floor with him. It was so easy I was actually embarrassed for the guy. Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 We used the poppy money to pay it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTT Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Doc Rob said: TBH I already wiped the floor with him. It was so easy I was actually embarrassed for the guy. Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? Good man. Nothing I hate more than those delusional hun ****s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott herbertson Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, Doc Rob said: TBH I already wiped the floor with him. It was so easy I was actually embarrassed for the guy. Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? HMRC usually take precedence over other creditors i thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyphoonJambo Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Thought the loot from the poppy scam covered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 And the raffle money. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 41 minutes ago, Doc Rob said: Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? Yes, I'm sure that s/was the case. They are just another secured creditor. 24 minutes ago, scott herbertson said: HMRC usually take precedence over other creditors i thought. That used to be he case but hasn't been for a few years. AFAICR (as far as I can remember!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 44 minutes ago, Doc Rob said: TBH I already wiped the floor with him. It was so easy I was actually embarrassed for the guy. Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? Correct, they're unsecured creditors and the debt was wiped after the cva was completed. Football creditors were paid as that was a condition of us being able to continue in our trade, but HMRC got the same pence in the pound deal as the other unsecured creditors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsofgold Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 34 minutes ago, scott herbertson said: HMRC usually take precedence over other creditors i thought. The bulk of Hearts debt was secured on Tynecastle and other assets. That's why the administrators of UKIO Bankas got the vast majority of the funds raised by the CVA. Unsecured creditors, including the HMRC were seen as minor interested parties. With most CVAs the secured creditors hoover up most of any money raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVB Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 We would have paid x pence in the pound to HMRC under the CVA. The reason we were able to get a CVA and they weren’t was because HMRC weren’t due that high a percentage of the total money we owed. Whilst Rangers were due HMRC a fortune as they didn’t pay PAYE allowing them to be able to afford half the Dutch national team. HMRC do not vote for CVAs and as they were a large creditor for Rangers they were unable to obtain a CVA and were liquidated. HMRC was not a large creditor of Hearts and thus when the Lith banks agreed we were able to get a CVA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonhertz Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Our mysterious benefactor paid it off ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
151 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 We're Heart of Midlothian, we'll pay who we want. ? Nah in all seriousness, **** the Rangers *****! Hope we hammer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Maybe we should organise a cake bake to pay it off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Rob Posted October 3, 2018 Author Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, DVB said: We would have paid x pence in the pound to HMRC under the CVA. The reason we were able to get a CVA and they weren’t was because HMRC weren’t due that high a percentage of the total money we owed. Whilst Rangers were due HMRC a fortune as they didn’t pay PAYE allowing them to be able to afford half the Dutch national team. HMRC do not vote for CVAs and as they were a large creditor for Rangers they were unable to obtain a CVA and were liquidated. HMRC was not a large creditor of Hearts and thus when the Lith banks agreed we were able to get a CVA. Yeah, that’s roughly what I thought. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Doc Rob said: Have been having a (metaphorical) square go with a Sevco fan on a different forum. Quite an eye-opener. Apparently Hearts fans don’t get to criticise Rangers because we did the same thing they did. The logic seems to be that VR signed players to Kaunas and loaned them to Hearts to avoid tax, which is almost certainly true, and that this is ‘just the same’ as the EBT scheme used by Rangers as a secret means of systematic tax evasion over many years. Obviously this is utter nonsense (VR didn’t even try to hide what he was doing, for a start), but the guy claimed that we ‘did a deal’ with HMRC to reduce our PAYE bill, whereas Rangers were ‘used as a test case’ and that’s why they couldn’t get a CVA. This got me thinking. Did we ever pay Hector the money we owed? The ‘deal’ mentioned was a phased repayment plan to pay off the full sum, but then we went into admin the next year. HMRC don’t accept CVAs, but they were a minor creditor compared to UBIG (we owed them £1.7m out of £30m or so). Having said that, if HMRC thought that HMFC still owed them money, I suspect they would still be pursuing us for it now. We’re still the same club, after all. It's fairly clear, as you say, that the whole Kaunas loans thing was intended to save on tax, however as you say, there was no attempt to hide anything, it was simply thought to be a legal way to reduce our tax bill. EBTs were an attempt, especially when the side letters are factored in, to completely mislead HMRC about the nature of payments to the recipients, i.e. rangers pretended that they were loans, where they were actually salaries. Hearts and HMRC agreed a deal regarding staging of payments of the bill that we were due when HMRC ruled what we'd done as not being within the rules. We'd paid a significant chunk before going into administration and I think (although I may be wrong) that we did settle the remaining balance and all other payments due to HMRC as I think this was required under football rules, even though they weren't a secured creditor. As far as the even Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Doc Rob said: TBH I already wiped the floor with him. It was so easy I was actually embarrassed for the guy. Was just curious as to what eventually happened with our bill. If a majority of creditors voted for the CVA, does that mean that HMRC have to be satisfied with what they get? That is the case. If we owed money to HMRC, they will have got a partial payment, in the same proportion as all other creditors, and they just have to suck it up. Basically, coming through administration successfully means that the slate is wiped clean. The only liability we retained was our footballing debt, as the SFA rules stipulate that a club has to honour its footballing debts as a condition of retaining SFA membership. There is no legal requirement to honour these debts, but if we wanted to retain our right to play football in Scotland, we had to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 IIRC, we paid an installment of around £300k in the days before we went into administration. And that may have been crucial (or perhaps not) in reducing the total proportion owed to them in the final package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, FarmerTweedy said: It's fairly clear, as you say, that the whole Kaunas loans thing was intended to save on tax, however as you say, there was no attempt to hide anything, it was simply thought to be a legal way to reduce our tax bill. EBTs were an attempt, especially when the side letters are factored in, to completely mislead HMRC about the nature of payments to the recipients, i.e. rangers pretended that they were loans, where they were actually salaries. Hearts and HMRC agreed a deal regarding staging of payments of the bill that we were due when HMRC ruled what we'd done as not being within the rules. We'd paid a significant chunk before going into administration and I think (although I may be wrong) that we did settle the remaining balance and all other payments due to HMRC as I think this was required under football rules, even though they weren't a secured creditor. As far as the even We didn't pay the full hmrc amount, they received a small percentage from the cva, and that was all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenNaismith Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Zuckerberg paid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordie1968 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) How much did the face painter get?? Edited October 4, 2018 by gordie1968 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangkokHearts Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 To clarify, the Rangers died and the Hearts survived. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonhertz Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Seen this on Facebook Apparently hibs died too ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartyhub Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 37 minutes ago, BangkokHearts said: To clarify, the Rangers died and the Hearts survived. ? Indeed they did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section Q Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 42 minutes ago, Toonhertz said: Seen this on Facebook Apparently hibs died too ?? What a shame.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 11 hours ago, DVB said: We would have paid x pence in the pound to HMRC under the CVA. The reason we were able to get a CVA and they weren’t was because HMRC weren’t due that high a percentage of the total money we owed. Whilst Rangers were due HMRC a fortune as they didn’t pay PAYE allowing them to be able to afford half the Dutch national team. HMRC do not vote for CVAs and as they were a large creditor for Rangers they were unable to obtain a CVA and were liquidated. HMRC was not a large creditor of Hearts and thus when the Lith banks agreed we were able to get a CVA. Surely we must have paid it off tho? Did we not raise like £1.1m or the likes for this in a big push at Xmas time. I remember over £1m getting raised for that very purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section Q Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Toonhertz said: Seen this on Facebook Apparently hibs died too ?? Interesting that Farmer said they were a "new club". Should we now refer to them as "new hibs" or "hibs lite"....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartofmidlothian Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Surely we must have paid it off tho? Did we not raise like £1.1m or the likes for this in a big push at Xmas time. I remember over £1m getting raised for that very purpose. This is what I wondered. When there was a big drive for season tickets and bums on seats, what did that money go to? Was it the HMRC bill or general wages and running costs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarmerTweedy Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 8 hours ago, Smithee said: We didn't pay the full hmrc amount, they received a small percentage from the cva, and that was all. Yeah, I think my memory is letting me down (not unusual)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, Section Q said: Interesting that Farmer said they were a "new club". Should we now refer to them as "new hibs" or "hibs lite"....! The "shite" will still do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Only isse with calling them new Hibs is there are no trophies to take off them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: Surely we must have paid it off tho? Did we not raise like £1.1m or the likes for this in a big push at Xmas time. I remember over £1m getting raised for that very purpose. You'll remember that HMRC had a vote in our CVA, that could only happen because we owed them money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzas right boot Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Smithee said: You'll remember that HMRC had a vote in our CVA, that could only happen because we owed them money Aye, because I remember the three installments of £500k, we made the first two I think then it all went to shit. Mind might be playing tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, tartofmidlothian said: This is what I wondered. When there was a big drive for season tickets and bums on seats, what did that money go to? Was it the HMRC bill or general wages and running costs? 1.8 million we owed them when we went into administration https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13116282.Hearts__a_debt_of___29m_and_200_creditors/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 14 hours ago, Bridge of Djoum said: I paid it. Close thread. Good man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graygo Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Sid said: Only isse with calling them new Hibs is there are no trophies to take off them! You sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Hearts were presented with a bill of around £450k around Oct/Nov 2012 for unpaid VAT and PAYE. That bill was paid off from the proceeds of the share issue in December 2012. In a separate agreement, Hearts accepted a tax liability for the Kaunas loanees of £1,576,000 (tax, interest and costs) and agreed a two year "time to pay" deal with monthly instalments starting in May 2013. The club went into administration in June 2013 so that bill was never settled. The administrators report shows that HMRC had a total claim of £1,881,065.58 against the club when it went into administration. HMRC actually voted against the CVA, as they did with Rangers, but the amount of their claim was insufficient to block the CVA. Unsecured creditors, including HMRC, got 0p in the £1 from the CVA settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boab1874 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Farmer bought Hibs from Hibs holdings.The holding company went down.Farmer got the land and the club and paid the holding company.The shareholders got 1 share for 3 something like that.The football club never went bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humblerogue Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 The taxman has been paid from us agreeing a Cva settlement and him getting the tax on our brand new super duper shiny main stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Boab1874 said: Farmer bought Hibs from Hibs holdings.The holding company went down.Farmer got the land and the club and paid the holding company.The shareholders got 1 share for 3 something like that.The football club never went bust. Yet according to Farmer "the original club people had bought shares in went into liquidation. There was a new club, a new Hibernian" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 9 hours ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said: The "shite" will still do. Shite lite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superjack Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, RobNox said: Shite lite Shitco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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