Armed Forces Day

[Scnorthedinburgh]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I take it you are referring to the NHS. The NHS has a much closer interest in the health and wellbeing of servicemen, in particular when it comes to their mental health problems, so it's only right they recognise that.

 

Quite why we need to it is beyond me so the answer to your last question is probably "no".

That is not the reason the nhs signed, far from it indeed.

They signed as they have a lot of staff who are reservists, they were protecting their employment rights.

That's the bit we both agree on, their rights should be protected as a norm.

Nhs benefits from staff serving in field hospitals learning skills that unfortunately come in hand in a city environment.

Both employers benefit, as do the public.

If you turn Sunday on its head it makes more sense.

The service people there will be showing their appreciation to hearts for signing up.

[Scnorthedinburgh]

7 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Another PR disaster from the club.  Sending emails to young lads telling them to reconsider the name “Gorgie boys” then launching an armed forces day that will be hikacked by the hello hello, Union Jack waving billy boys. We as a club pay more respect to our past sacrifices etc and to previous war efforts than most clubs. The soldier on the walk way, the memorial garden, the remeberence service, the plaque on the new stand, the museum and the continual links and ties to macreas battalion are all more than enough for me, subtle and dignified. Inviting this type of event and the sort of “fan” that it will attract is a wrong step in my opinion. Hopefully the day passes off as a non event other than a nice day for the people of the armed forces and we can reevaluate if there is another way to celebrate our past. 

 

 

So we let that kind of fan win? Can't do that the minority of idiots will turn it into an ibroxthon.

That's fast track to letting them dominate.

[Boab]

53 minutes ago, busby1985 said:

Another PR disaster from the club.  Sending emails to young lads telling them to reconsider the name “Gorgie boys” then launching an armed forces day that will be hikacked by the hello hello, Union Jack waving billy boys. We as a club pay more respect to our past sacrifices etc and to previous war efforts than most clubs. The soldier on the walk way, the memorial garden, the remeberence service, the plaque on the new stand, the museum and the continual links and ties to macreas battalion are all more than enough for me, subtle and dignified. Inviting this type of event and the sort of “fan” that it will attract is a wrong step in my opinion. Hopefully the day passes off as a non event other than a nice day for the people of the armed forces and we can reevaluate if there is another way to celebrate our past. 

 

 

 Do you honestly think you'll see a show of Union flag waving characters on Sunday because of this signing of the covenant ?

With respect, I think you're over-egging this, mate.

It will be something that passes off with most people unaware of it, as it will be outwith the 90 mins of football.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Juanjo15 said:

 

What about a 12/13 year old who see the “cool army” at Tynie, the place they love most and get it into their heads that’s what they want to do when they get a bit older? 

Since they can choose their gender at that age these days I am not sure that choosing a career is that big a deal.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Francis Albert

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, busby1985 said:

Another PR disaster from the club.  Sending emails to young lads telling them to reconsider the name “Gorgie boys” then launching an armed forces day that will be hikacked by the hello hello, Union Jack waving billy boys. We as a club pay more respect to our past sacrifices etc and to previous war efforts than most clubs. The soldier on the walk way, the memorial garden, the remeberence service, the plaque on the new stand, the museum and the continual links and ties to macreas battalion are all more than enough for me, subtle and dignified. Inviting this type of event and the sort of “fan” that it will attract is a wrong step in my opinion. Hopefully the day passes off as a non event other than a nice day for the people of the armed forces and we can reevaluate if there is another way to celebrate our past. 

 

 

Got to say I agree with this post.

I missed the bit about the e mail to the young guys about the 'Gorgie Boys'.

What wrong with that title because that's what they are 

Gorgie Boys.

The club just seems to be stumbling from one feck up to another these days.

Dividing the support is not a good idea.

[Francis Albert]

10 hours ago, ADAM said:

What shopping centre and when exactly were current servicemen doing this?

 

At the last Armed Forces Day at Ibrox there were large military guns on display directly outside the ground. Would that be acceptable in the Plaza at Tynecastle? 

 

I have young 12/13yr olds family members who go to Tynecastle unaccompanied and we don't want them exposed to or influenced by military personnel - it's a football game FFS!!!..

The Walnuts, Orpington, several times. I m afraid I didn't take a note of the dates and times. I wasn't traumatised by the sight. Nor as far as I could tell was anyone else.

I think most normal 12 or 13 year olds would be interested in seeing soldiers and large military guns.

But I suppose now it would be a bit tame compared ( as someone has mentioned) to violent computer games.

[August Landmesser]

3 hours ago, Walter Bishop said:

And? 

 

Military weapons are generally associated with the armed forces. Its ok though i doubt they will turn them on the crowd so i reckon your safe.

Though, if they did it wouldn't be the first time British forces have machine-gunned a crowd of British citizens at a sporting event.

 

The UK has form for that sort of thing.

[Chuck Berry]

2 hours ago, busby1985 said:

Another PR disaster from the club.  Sending emails to young lads telling them to reconsider the name “Gorgie boys” then launching an armed forces day that will be hikacked by the hello hello, Union Jack waving billy boys. We as a club pay more respect to our past sacrifices etc and to previous war efforts than most clubs. The soldier on the walk way, the memorial garden, the remeberence service, the plaque on the new stand, the museum and the continual links and ties to macreas battalion are all more than enough for me, subtle and dignified. Inviting this type of event and the sort of “fan” that it will attract is a wrong step in my opinion. Hopefully the day passes off as a non event other than a nice day for the people of the armed forces and we can reevaluate if there is another way to celebrate our past. 

 

 

 

Spot on.

[Strachsuit]

21 hours ago, August Landmesser said:

No, they're not. The club have proposed an event, with which some people disagree.

 

It seems from the general chat on here that the vast majority of folk are broadly in favour of the club signing up to the Covenant. However, some people are uncomfortable with the concept of an 'Armed Forces Day' as part of a normal day out at a football match. The two things are actually separate, but related, issues.

 

I couldn't give a monkey's if the Armed Forces have all the days they want, so long as it's on their own time, away from Tynie, and it doesn't interfere with my day out at the football. The only reason I go to Tynie is to watch Hearts play football matches, and that's all I'm interested in watching there on a match day (unless a particularly large seagull happens to appear, or there's a cloud shaped like a knob).

 

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of people use the football as an opportunity to escape from the issues of daily life. It's why folk get upset when Rantic come to town with their 'party songs' as it brings an element of the outside world into what should be a purely sporting occasion. It's why Kickback has 'The Shed' - to keep non-football chat away from folk who really only come here for the football.

And clearly support/opposition for such a thing is a political stance insofar as 'politics' relates to the public affairs of a country.

'People looking for things to be offended over' is a shitty attempt to close down debate, and stinks of weary cynicism. It also betrays a lack of any confidence in the strength of your argument.

Speaking for myself, some of the discussion on this thread (particularly from (ex)service personnel) has caused me to think again about my initial reaction to the covenant, and that's what debate is for. It should be deeper and more involved than just shouting at 'Celtic-minded' 'pantwetters' and 'snowflakes' seeking to be offended. 

 

Fair comment. To be honest if you'd come on here with this outlook from the start, perhaps the reaction wouldn't have been so volatile? 

 

I certainly have weary cynicism in abundance.

 

From my POV, I don't see the club turning the day into any sort of triumphalism like they have at Castle Greyskull. It will be the signing of the covenant in a professional and dignified manner, as has always been the case from the club under AB. I'm very confident of that.

[August Landmesser]

4 minutes ago, Strachsuit said:

 

Fair comment. To be honest if you'd come on here with this outlook from the start, perhaps the reaction wouldn't have been so volatile? 

 

I certainly have weary cynicism in abundance.

 

From my POV, I don't see the club turning the day into any sort of triumphalism like they have at Castle Greyskull. It will be the signing of the covenant in a professional and dignified manner, as has always been the case from the club under AB. I'm very confident of that.

My OP was a heat of the moment knee-jerk blurt, that's for sure! I should really teach myself to count to ten....

And I agree with you on the triumphalist/greyskull caper - we'll wait and see how it goes on Sunday, hopefully tasteful and understated.

I'd also like to apologise to you for the grammar 'correction' - total daftie behaviour too.

[Strachsuit]

3 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

My OP was a heat of the moment knee-jerk blurt, that's for sure! I should really teach myself to count to ten....

And I agree with you on the triumphalist/greyskull caper - we'll wait and see how it goes on Sunday, hopefully tasteful and understated.

I'd also like to apologise to you for the grammar 'correction' - total daftie behaviour too.

 

Haha no need to apologise, certainly lots more to worry about than some of the stuff on here! I thought it was quite funny though. 

 

 

[August Landmesser]

4 minutes ago, Strachsuit said:

 

Haha no need to apologise, certainly lots more to worry about than some of the stuff on here! I thought it was quite funny though. 

 

 

It'll be the kind of thing I'll remember by chance in ten years' time - instant riddy, cold sweats... nightmare

[MacDonald Jardine]

9 hours ago, August Landmesser said:

Though, if they did it wouldn't be the first time British forces have machine-gunned a crowd of British citizens at a sporting event.

 

The UK has form for that sort of thing.

And there's your complete lack of respect from one of the anti brigade.

It makes a bit of a mockery of previous comments that those not in favour respect the armed forces but just don't happen to agree with an event in this context. 

[Elmore]

18 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

And there's your complete lack of respect from one of the anti brigade.

It makes a bit of a mockery of previous comments that those not in favour respect the armed forces but just don't happen to agree with an event in this context. 

Not everybody who is against the AFD is against the armed forces.  We should've waited to see how this event went before signing up to it being obligational that we have it every year.  

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just now, Elmore said:

Not everybody who is against the AFD is against the armed forces.  We should've waited to see how this event went before signing up to it being obligational that we have it every year.  

I know they aren't and there's ridiculous claims on both sides but that post was the pick of any.

My view is we see how it pans out.

I'd be amazed if it was the jingoistic union flag fest some seem to fear.

[Elmore]

1 minute ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

I know they aren't and there's ridiculous claims on both sides but that post was the pick of any.

My view is we see how it pans out.

I'd be amazed if it was the jingoistic union flag fest some seem to fear.

We should've waited to we how this one went before being obliged to have it as an annual event.  No weapons should be on display at this.  

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just now, Elmore said:

We should've waited to we how this one went before being obliged to have it as an annual event.  No weapons should be on display at this.  

I might be a different generation but as a kid I remember military displays in a number of public places, and frankly they were family days out.

Another poster mentioned the Meadows and I remember getting taken there.

I'm not sure what the harm would be. 

[fila]

People upset / offended because the club are recognising the armed forces of this country , should not even be a debate 

[Scnorthedinburgh]

28 minutes ago, fila said:

People upset / offended because the club are recognising the armed forces of this country , should not even be a debate 

They are entitled to their view. As are you. Few things are entirely wrong or right and indefensible.

[August Landmesser]

1 hour ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

And there's your complete lack of respect from one of the anti brigade.

It makes a bit of a mockery of previous comments that those not in favour respect the armed forces but just don't happen to agree with an event in this context. 

Ha! I should have had a bingo card with your username on it.

 

My remark was a facetious and throwaway comment about turning the guns on a sporting audience. It references the history of certain armed forces acting on behalf of the British govt. You and I both know fine well which particular force and which particular action I was talking about, and yet you've managed to extrapolate from that a 'complete lack of respect from the anti brigade' towards individuals in today's armed forces.

 

Nice work.

 

 

[August Landmesser]

39 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

I might be a different generation but as a kid I remember military displays in a number of public places, and frankly they were family days out.

Another poster mentioned the Meadows and I remember getting taken there.

I'm not sure what the harm would be. 

The Meadows and public places are exactly that. Public places. People would go to military displays for the express purpose of visiting a military display. 

 

People are heading to Tynie for the express purpose of watching Hearts struggle to put away lower league opposition. That's all I wanted to do on Sunday, but now there's a possibility that some form of military display will be thrust upon me [insert matron smiley] against my will, so y'know, it's a different situation to the Meadows etc.

[MacDonald Jardine]

7 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

Ha! I should have had a bingo card with your username on it.

 

My remark was a facetious and throwaway comment about turning the guns on a sporting audience. It references the history of certain armed forces acting on behalf of the British govt. You and I both know fine well which particular force and which particular action I was talking about, and yet you've managed to extrapolate from that a 'complete lack of respect from the anti brigade' towards individuals in today's armed forces.

 

Nice work.

 

 

Your remark was facetious but hardly throwaway. 

It's indicative if your position and the reason for it. 

[MacDonald Jardine]

4 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

The Meadows and public places are exactly that. Public places. People would go to military displays for the express purpose of visiting a military display. 

 

People are heading to Tynie for the express purpose of watching Hearts struggle to put away lower league opposition. That's all I wanted to do on Sunday, but now there's a possibility that some form of military display will be thrust upon me [insert matron smiley] against my will, so y'know, it's a different situation to the Meadows etc.

There might be some military element. 

It's hardly going to be traumatic for anyone.

As I said previously I'd wait and see how it's actually presented rather than leaping to wild assumptions. 

[August Landmesser]

2 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

Your remark was facetious but hardly throwaway. 

It's indicative if your position and the reason for it. 

This should be good.

 

What's my position then?

 

More interestingly, what do you reckon is the reason for it?

[MacDonald Jardine]

2 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

This should be good.

 

What's my position then?

 

More interestingly, what do you reckon is the reason for it?

You take the view the British Forces are colonial butchers and base this on isolated past incidents. 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

3 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

This should be good.

 

What's my position then?

 

More interestingly, what do you reckon is the reason for it?

 

Drunk on the floor? 

 

Because you are a steaming mess? 

 

How many points? 

[Elmore]

10 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

There might be some military element. 

It's hardly going to be traumatic for anyone.

As I said previously I'd wait and see how it's actually presented rather than leaping to wild assumptions. 

Shouldn't we have waited to see how it went before agreeing to have it as an annual event?  

[MacDonald Jardine]

2 minutes ago, Elmore said:

Shouldn't we have waited to see how it went before agreeing to have it as an annual event?  

I do see that argument, or alternatively see how it goes and adjust next year's event accordingly. 

I do think a lot of this debate could be moot once everyone sees what the AFD actually means.

Edited July 27, 2018 by MacDonald Jardine
My own ADD lead to a mistake.

[August Landmesser]

18 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

You take the view the British Forces are colonial butchers and base this on isolated past incidents. 

I haven't called anyone a butcher in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear what you think my reasons are for being so down on the forces...

[Elmore]

11 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

I haven't called anyone a butcher in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear what you think my reasons are for being so down on the forces...

Its the cheap 'complete lack of respect' card being played, when the discussion is about military displays at a football match.  I wonder if you will get an answer to your question?  

[August Landmesser]

2 minutes ago, Elmore said:

Its the cheap 'complete lack of respect' card being played, when the discussion is about military displays at a football match.  I wonder if you will get an answer to your question?  

I reckon we both know the answer to that one already. 

[Scnorthedinburgh]

2 minutes ago, Elmore said:

Its the cheap 'complete lack of respect' card being played, when the discussion is about military displays at a football match.  I wonder if you will get an answer to your 

18 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

I haven't called anyone a butcher in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear what you think my reasons are for being so down on the forces...

August why not just tell him why you don't agree, asking him to read your mind drags the argument on and adds nothing.

[MacDonald Jardine]

13 minutes ago, Elmore said:

Its the cheap 'complete lack of respect' card being played, when the discussion is about military displays at a football match.  I wonder if you will get an answer to your question?  

Is it aye? Did you read the post I replied to?

[MacDonald Jardine]

29 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

I haven't called anyone a butcher in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear what you think my reasons are for being so down on the forces...

I've already given the answer.

You see the armed forces as a colonial occupation force.

[August Landmesser]

5 minutes ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

 

Sorry, Scnorth, I've explained my reasons at various points in the thread above. The issue that MJ has with me relates to a specific comment I made about a specific incident in history. 

[MacDonald Jardine]

1 minute ago, August Landmesser said:

Sorry, Scnorth, I've explained my reasons at various points in the thread above. The issue that MJ has with me relates to a specific comment I made about a specific incident in history. 

A specific comment that reveals a lot.

[August Landmesser]

Just now, MacDonald Jardine said:

I've already given the answer.

You see the armed forces as a colonial occupation force.

I haven't called anyone a 'colonial occupation force' in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear your reasons for why you think I might think this...

[Scnorthedinburgh]

2 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

Sorry, Scnorth, I've explained my reasons at various points in the thread above. The issue that MJ has with me relates to a specific comment I made about a specific incident in history. 

Cheers saves me reading back, and I know your not just trying to be wide.

[August Landmesser]

1 minute ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

Cheers saves me reading back, and I know your not just trying to be wide.

If I came across that way to you, I'm sorry. 

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just now, August Landmesser said:

I haven't called anyone a 'colonial occupation force' in this, or any other, thread.

 

Still keen to hear your reasons for why you think I might think this...

Why make the comment you did?

You can argue it's factually correct but again you're using one specific example of a reason against the whole concept of Armed Forces Day.

Why you felt the need to do that I don't know but it casts some light on your thinking. 

Anyway I'm now out as you and your pals will continually say I haven't answered questions you ask.

[MacDonald Jardine]

3 minutes ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

Cheers saves me reading back, and I know your not just trying to be wide.

Does it?

Happy with his explanation are you?

[Scnorthedinburgh]

2 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

A specific comment that reveals a lot.

If it's the one about croake park, he wins.

Not a high point in the army's history.

I wouldn't and couldn't defend that

 

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just now, Scnorthedinburgh said:

If it's the one about croake park, he wins.

Not a high point in the army's history.

I wouldn't and couldn't defend that

 

I'm not trying to but it was different times.

 

[August Landmesser]

Just now, MacDonald Jardine said:

Why make the comment you did?

You can argue it's factually correct but again you're using one specific example of a reason against the whole concept of Armed Forces Day.

Why you felt the need to do that I don't know but it casts some light on your thinking. 

Anyway I'm now out as you and your pals will continually say I haven't answered questions you ask.

I made a lighthearted comment in direct response/reference to another poster's lighthearted comment.

 

Then, all of a sudden, up you pop, all righteous outrage and moral high ground, demanding to know why I said what I said and insinuating that you knew why I said what I said.

 

If you'd have bothered to read back through this thread, you'd have found my (and others') reasons for feeling uneasy about AFD. But you picked up on this one inconsequential comment. Weird.

[Elmore]

2 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

I'm not trying to but it was different times.

 

The miners strike?  Not turning guns on people but they did cross lines they shouldn't have. This point has nothing to do with Sunday. Just giving an example of something more recent. 

[Scnorthedinburgh]

Just now, MacDonald Jardine said:

I'm not trying to but it was different times.

 

So why keep pushing him on it. I think that was a terrible day for our army. I have backed the signing the covenant and explained on here why. I have also listened to other views.

If you glorify some of the army's actions during the Easter rising. Or bloody Sunday, you are immediately in the wrong.

And I'm not Celtic minded, or protestant. Baptist born and raised not that it matters.

[fila]

2 hours ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

They are entitled to their view. As are you. Few things are entirely wrong or right and indefensible.

 

quite agree , that’s why I commented , but thanks for pointing that out to me anyway

[fila]

46 minutes ago, Scnorthedinburgh said:

So why keep pushing him on it. I think that was a terrible day for our army. I have backed the signing the covenant and explained on here why. I have also listened to other views.

If you glorify some of the army's actions during the Easter rising. Or bloody Sunday, you are immediately in the wrong.

And I'm not Celtic minded, or protestant. Baptist born and raised not that it matters.

 

It matters enough for you to mention it in a post ( again just my view )

[Elmore]

4 minutes ago, fila said:

 

It matters enough for you to mention it in a post ( again just my view )

I think he was referring to being a Baptist. 

[fila]

8 hours ago, Elmore said:

I think he was referring to being a Baptist. 

 

I know, was just sayin it did matter to him as he posted it