Stewart MacD Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Willian III of England. Most other members of the inbred hereditary royalty squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 ...was she not really embarrassed by questions by a young girl on a talk show about the Falklands war and struggled and tried to avoid answering her questions. IIRC, it was old lady who made her squirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maroonlegions Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 IIRC, it was old lady who made her squirm. ah , good on her eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Irvine Jambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Ally McCoist - smug, selt satisfied, arrogant little tosser. He was a very ordinary player for Scotland and he is painfully unfunny on TV. I change the channel as soon as i see his smug face. Cannot stand the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart MacD Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Ally McCoist - smug, selt satisfied, arrogant little tosser. Neither historic nor historical. Sighted at Vilnius Airport today...perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosanostra Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 How do you mean Neither historic nor historical? He is the Scottish prem's all time top scorer, Rangers all time top scorer and is in the Scotland Hall of Fame. In terms of Scottish history and Scottish football history, he's fairly significant and well known outside of Scotand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Shaton Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Nelson Mandela: an over-rated historical figure??? Try telling that to any one of the 32 million black South Africans who benefited from his struggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 wat tyler - the english peasant's revolt was poo. The revolt of the ciompi; now thats where its at. oliver cromwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 wat tyler - the english peasant's revolt was poo. The revolt of the ciompi; now thats where its at. Er, aye, good point like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Sexington Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Bonnie Prince Charlie, definitely. How anyone can get misty eyed over that self serving, cowardly, incompetent little Italian creep is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_ Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Willian III of England.Most other members of the inbred hereditary royalty squad. Damn, beat me to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seats Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Is someone going to explain why Nelson Mandela was 'over rated'? In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments. Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[9][3] Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[10] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Mandela is as overrated as FW de Klerk is underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley_ Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 No, but you can have a present historic figure e.g. Nelson Mandela. So what is a past historical figure then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Bonnie Prince Charlie, definitely. How anyone can get misty eyed over that self serving, cowardly, incompetent little Italian creep is beyond me. Spot on. Shat it when the chips were down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid. A few decades later, MK did wage a guerrilla war against the regime, especially during the 1980s, in which many civilians were killed. Mandela also raised funds for MK abroad, and arranged for paramilitary training, visiting various African governments. Mandela explains the move to embark on armed struggle as a last resort, when increasing repression and violence from the state convinced him that many years of non-violent protest against apartheid had achieved nothing and could not succeed.[9][3] Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.[10] Okay, but why would someone say that he was 'over rated'? Is that because he was not completely pure? Or that he once did things in order to secure a future that he believed in? I visited Robben Island a couple of years ago. It is a place that I think many should visit. And it should fill us with shame that our country is complicit in imprisoning political prisoners without trial at Guantanamo Bay now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Okay, but why would someone say that he was 'over rated'? Is that because he was not completely pure? Or that he once did things in order to secure a future that he believed in? I visited Robben Island a couple of years ago. It is a place that I think many should visit. And it should fill us with shame that our country is complicit in imprisoning political prisoners without trial at Guantanamo Bay now. I was going to recommend i8hibsh visit Robben Island, certainly: it might give him an insight as to what Mandela went through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandt Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 EH YOU FORGOT THE POLL TAX, she rammed up the poor"s sun don't shines and we in Scotland got it first , she attacked a ARGIE SHIP THAT WAS HEADING AWAY FROM THE NO GO ZONE, she was responsible for a 1000 deaths in that war , no matter how you look at the free milk she stopped she still took it away from poor kids mouths(caring eh) she was a union basher and would have been happy to see all unions go down the toilet and create a 18th century work house for workers , she was DRACONIAN IN HER ACTIONS AND WAYS, a very unpopular prime minister , the mass protests at the poll tax were proof of that , she aimed to please middle class ,middle England , was she not really embarrassed by questions by a young girl on a talk show about the Falklands war and struggled and tried to avoid answering her questions. I could be wrong but didnt that girl go onto the missing list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Mandela is as overrated as FW de Klerk is underrated. De Klerk, of course, was part of PW Botha's government, which administered apartheid for many years. There are, though, parallels that can be drawn between him and what Gorbachev did in the Soviet Union: I agree that his role has often been overlooked, but certainly not that Mandela's has been overstated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Nelson Mandela: an over-rated historical figure??? Try telling that to any one of the 32 million black South Africans who benefited from his struggle. GMAN that point is moot. South Africa today is simmering. External investment keeps a lid on it otherwise you would have Zimbabwe writ large. Things had to change and they did. Whether the poorer black Sarf Efricans are any better off? It may take another 25-50 years for the answer to that one to come out. A beautiful country and great people white and black but i think when Mandela finally shuffles off you'll see another SA emerge. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 De Klerk, of course, was part of PW Botha's government, which administered apartheid for many years. There are, though, parallels that can be drawn between him and what Gorbachev did in the Soviet Union: I agree that his role has often been overlooked, but certainly not that Mandela's has been overstated! in stating that Mandela is overrated I am not saying that his role has been overstated, it is more a comment on the esteem that others hold him in. I do not diminish his role in helping to bring about an end to Apartheid in South Africa but many hold him up as some kind of flawless saint and in that regard he is overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 GMAN that point is moot. South Africa today is simmering. External investment keeps a lid on it otherwise you would have Zimbabwe writ large. Things had to change and they did. Whether the poorer black Sarf Efricans are any better off? It may take another 25-50 years for the answer to that one to come out. A beautiful country and great people white and black but i think when Mandela finally shuffles off you'll see another SA emerge. Sadly. I agree with this. There are a lot of problems still. My friends in South Africa all talk of getting out and none want to bring up children there. Even in Cape Town the constant security cages etc on shops and houses as well as the robberies, muggings etc must wear you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynie b Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 in stating that Mandela is overrated I am not saying that his role has been overstated, it is more a comment on the esteem that others hold him in. I do not diminish his role in helping to bring about an end to Apartheid in South Africa but many hold him up as some kind of flawless saint and in that regard he is overrated. Agreed...The Man was a Terrorist!! On the Subject of Over-rated Historical figures...William of Orange...Well it's that time of Year!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I agree with this. There are a lot of problems still. My friends in South Africa all talk of getting out and none want to bring up children there. Even in Cape Town the constant security cages etc on shops and houses as well as the robberies, muggings etc must wear you down. I have a number of friends that have settled here in the UK and across Europe and none of them will go back to SA. Many believe the president in waiting Zuma will create a whole world of problems down there as he is despotic African leader personified (well a close second to Zim's uncle Bob) As i say Mandela is still well respected and is the glue that keeps the 'tribes' in the ANC together. He goes and it unravells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toggie88 Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Agreed...The Man was a Terrorist!! On the Subject of Over-rated Historical figures...William of Orange...Well it's that time of Year!! Yes, he effectively was. He was fighting for what was right though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitonastranger Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitonastranger Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 A war that ended 3 years before her next election?destroyed communities? mining was and is dead. It was not making money, it was wasting money. Any leader with half a brain would have closed them. Milk snatcher - Britian spent ?9 million a year on free milk(more than on books and new buildings). Most of the milk was going to waste as it was not refrigerated. - again very sensible and made sense She enpowered people into owning their own homes and making more money she made mistakes (35 years in Westminster - she is bound to) but I definately argue she was not over rated she lead a country how it should be lead. She was a workaholic and so so passionate into making Britain great. Her determination knocked down so many prejudices and barriers to move Britian into the 20th century by having a first female leader. she had world leaders sacred of her, not a a doormat like every one of her succesors ahh the tory view, bet you didnt live through any of it:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spitonastranger Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 yup silly me however all other points are fact Q.Was coal mining dead? was it making Britian money or losing Britian money? Q.Did she make it easy for people to own their own homes Q.Was school milk the biggest waste of money EVER? A. do we use coal nowadays and import it A. And built no furhter social homes, causing massive homelessness, repossesions and suicides A. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Agreed...The Man was a Terrorist!! On the Subject of Over-rated Historical figures...William of Orange...Well it's that time of Year!! Of course he was a terrorist. So was George Washington; so was William Wallace. Perhaps you'd like to tell us what Mandela's course of action should've been instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Mary Queen of Scots. Didn't really do anything important yet we all know about her. There has been a book written about how Mary's role in history is overstated which I find ironic but the point is valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Harris Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Of course he was a terrorist. So was George Washington; so was William Wallace. Perhaps you'd like to tell us what Mandela's course of action should've been instead? I'm speaking generally here as I don't know enough about Umkhonto we Sizwe to comment on them specifically. The end does not justify the means. One man's terrorist is not another man's freedom fighter. The targeting of Civilians is always wrong. That is not to say that a guerrilla campaign against legitimate military targets is always wrong.(and for me, that would not come under my definition of terrorism as the targets are not civilian.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazio Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The average black South African is worse off now than pre Mandela. There is a new apartheid in place that splits the country very rigidly between the haves and have nots. The (poor) rights afforded the poorest strata of society have been taken away as the new ruling class tread on them in their lust for wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The average black South African is worse off now than pre Mandela. There is a new apartheid in place that splits the country very rigidly between the haves and have nots. The (poor) rights afforded the poorest strata of society have been taken away as the new ruling class tread on them in their lust for wealth. There are many post-colonial nations where that is the case. Apartheid was just one of the 'wrongs' in South Africa which needed to be 'righted'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 William Wallace - was not as important as everyone thinks, his main battle was more down to success of his co leader Murray's plan. Only down to blind harry that he is so bigged up. George Washington - serial failure who lost often to the British, only when the French decided to help the Americans that he managed to succed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest S.U.S.S. Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Yes, he effectively was. He was fighting for what was right though. No not effectively, he was a terrorist, and is it ok to kill innocent people if ur doing it for the right reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Thatcher - engineered a war to win an election, destroyed communities and industries yet many view her as saving the UK. Bonnie Prince Charlie - well over rated. Even dressed as a bird to run away. Could have taken London but decided not to. *****! Woefully inaccurate but I concur with your nomination. As others have said, Charles Edward Stuart was self-serving and had little, if any, interest in Scotland the nation. I'd say Churchill is a tad over-rated as well, nobody ever remembers he was booted out straight after the war and had an inglorious second Premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 No not effectively, he was a terrorist, and is it ok to kill innocent people if ur doing it for the right reasons? The British and the Americans thought it was fine during WW2 with the mass firebombing of German cities and the atomic boms on Nagasaki and Hirashima. In both of those cases innocent people were killed, but they were done for the right reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor.Arturo Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Mohammed......if you believe that stuff, he was actually just a third rate prophet, way down the pecking order compared to others, bit like comparing a toilet cleaner to a solicitor. Also not very nice to very young kids....its in the qu'ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Arthur Scargill: Killed the mining industry as much as many believe Margaret Thatcher did. Over-rated in history: Past: Florence Nightingale: Present: Nelson Mandela: John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Arthur Scargill: Killed the mining industry as much as many believe Margaret Thatcher did. Over-rated in history: Past: Florence Nightingale: Present: Nelson Mandela: John The Mandela one is interesting but it's too early to judge imo. Mountbatten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deek Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Mohammed......if you believe that stuff, he was actually just a third rate prophet, way down the pecking order compared to others, bit like comparing a toilet cleaner to a solicitor. Also not very nice to very young kids....its in the qu'ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Kidd Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Loch Ness Monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest S.U.S.S. Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The British and the Americans thought it was fine during WW2 with the mass firebombing of German cities and the atomic boms on Nagasaki and Hirashima. In both of those cases innocent people were killed, but they were done for the right reasons. These were open and declared wars, and were not perpetrated against their own people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 These were open and declared wars, and were not perpetrated against their own people. So killing innocent foreigners is fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Kidd Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Arthur Scargill: Killed the mining industry as much as many believe Margaret Thatcher did. Over-rated in history: Past: Florence Nightingale: Present: Nelson Mandela: John Your Scargill one is wrong. Everything the man was fighting for came true. If it wasn't for the scabs from Nottingham he would have won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portobellojambo1 Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The average black South African is worse off now than pre Mandela. There is a new apartheid in place that splits the country very rigidly between the haves and have nots. The (poor) rights afforded the poorest strata of society have been taken away as the new ruling class tread on them in their lust for wealth. Is that not a fairly common result in such scenarios though Tazio, where there has been division before it tends to re-manifest itself, but in a slightly different guise. One could probably say the same now about what was formerly the USSR (or at least that part which is now known as Russia). There are massive divisions forming there again, again based on wealth. I was watching a documentary series recently, think it was Jonathan Dimbleby doing a trip across Russia (both North to South and West to East) and discovered from that programme that Moscow is now the most expensive city on the planet, and the gap between the haves and the have nots is massive, and was replicated in many of the other larger cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest S.U.S.S. Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 So killing innocent foreigners is fine? I realise it does read like that;) Only the ones called Johnny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor.Arturo Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Your Scargill one is wrong. Everything the man was fighting for came true. If it wasn't for the scabs from Nottingham he would have won. While his huge mortgage was still being paid, and his Jag had a full tank of petrol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Findlay Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Your Scargill one is wrong. Everything the man was fighting for came true. If it wasn't for the scabs from Nottingham he would have won. Rubbish: Scargill was a confrontationist. Yes what he predicted came right but he played a big part in making his own prediction come true. People go on about Vlad only having a plan A and no B C or D. Scargill struggled with a plan A. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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