VAR

[Jammy T]

The dinosaurs on the Beeb were going a bit OTT about it tonight.

 

’Lawro’ was adamant that Portugal’s wasn’t a pen and the studio begrudgingly said it was probably a penalty when it was a clear penalty.

 

It got Ronaldo’s booking right also.

 

Then re Iran’s pen they kept going on about ‘how can that be deliberate handball’ when that isn’t the precise criteria for giving handball against a player.

 

One thing I would say is that they haven’t got the camera angles right for replays. In rugby you have a camera angle for every possible viewpoint. Can’t be difficult to sort that for an 18 yard zone with the money in football.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Jammy T

[Jammy T]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Both this and simulation could've been stopped in a flash many years ago. Start giving red cards out, and no-one would do it any more. But FIFA seem to view it as part of the game?!

 

I agree - again take a leaf out of rugby’s book. Any dissent or harassing the referee and you’re booked, free kick to other side.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Jammy T said:

 

I agree - again take a leaf out of rugby’s book. Any dissent or harassing the referee and you’re booked, free kick to other side.

 

It is the most fantastic thing that in rugby, 300lb brick shithouses tower over the ref and say "Yes, Sir. Sorry, Sir". But it's also only football that has this endemic lack of respect for officials: which of course, can only make each passing generation of refs worse than before. Because what kind of person would want to be a referee in the first place? Only an attention seeker or a Joe 90 little Hitler type.

[The White Cockade]

the Portugal handball one was never a penalty in a million years

looks like at the competition any handball is automatically a penalty

and why is VAR not being used to cut out the cheating?

the amount of playacting going on is beyond a joke - it's cheating and they should be carded

[Smoked-Glass]

We would have lost 2 more derbies if they had var.  No thanks.

[milky_26]

22 minutes ago, graygo said:

Is it not the case that it's not up to the referee to decide whether something needs looked at so players asking him to do so are pissing in the wind anyway.

 

I thought it was the wee gadgeys in the studio in Moscow who told the referee he needed to have a look.

i think the ref can also decide if he wants to have another look at something. i think it happened with the pen in the belgium game on saturday. the debate was was it a freekick or a pen

[Jammy T]

33 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

We would have lost 2 more derbies if they had var.  No thanks.

 

We’d also have won the league.

 

I’d take that over two pissy derbies against a club that we would still own notwithstanding that. 

[Rocky jamboa]

23 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

We’d also have won the league.

 

I’d take that over two pissy derbies against a club that we would still own notwithstanding that. 

That's why the bum cheeks will make sure it never comes in up here 

[superjack]

I'm for VAR, the problem tonight was the referee I thought. 1st penalty was correct I thought, second 1 no way. If it was the fourth official in charge of it, maybe we wouldn't see the lengthy hold ups we seen tonight.

[DesertDawg]

Shaun,

 

I'd add the NHL "enhancement" rule too.  Players penalized get 2 minutes in the "sin bin."....equivalent of a yellow card.  If you're on the other team and caught "enhancing" the penalty....you also get 2 minute penalty.

 

  

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, DesertDawg said:

Shaun,

 

I'd add the NHL "enhancement" rule too.  Players penalized get 2 minutes in the "sin bin."....equivalent of a yellow card.  If you're on the other team and caught "enhancing" the penalty....you also get 2 minute penalty.

 

  

 

Well, here's the thing. I've long believed the two-card system in football is horrendously flawed. I think there should be three cards, with a middle amber or green card meaning a 10 minute sin binning.

 

As it stands, it's way too easy for a player to be sent off after two slightly mistimed challenges; and too often, a ref bottles out of giving a red, and has only yellow as an alternative. A middle option would solve much of that.

[I P Knightley]

On 6/24/2018 at 14:51, Phil Dunphy said:

 

The whole point is they're trying to make football perfect.

 

If that can't be achieved 100% by VAR then it's an unnecessary annoyance.

After tonight's game, I was beginning to come closer to your way of thinking on this. What we saw was a decent system in the hands of a set of complete and utter cretins.

 

So... pretty much how it would work in Scotland

On 6/24/2018 at 15:04, Cade said:

Does it waste more time than players surrounding a ref? Not really.

 

Does it get it right more often than refs do without it? Yes.

 

VAR is working just fine.

"Just fine" is how I'd describe it. Spain's goal was a good outcome of VAR; in the sense of being fair and unequivocal. Lots of other examples where it delivered a fair result. But, as Lineker said, it has a human interpretation element to it and will, therefore, carry some risk of error.

 

Overall, I think it will have been good for this tournament on balance but, as Zabaleta was saying, there has to be something to stop the players whining incessantly about it.

 

2 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

They need to sort this out. Perhaps take another leaf from egg chuckings book and start moving the ball forward 5 yards or something or simply bring in rule where only the captain can speak to the ref and any player pressuring the ref, nipping the ref can be sin binned for 5 minutes.

 

 

The other one I'd introduce is mandatory 10 minutes off the pitch for a head injury assessment for any player who goes to the ground clutching his head. Bunch of effing pussies.

 

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It is the most fantastic thing that in rugby, 300lb brick shithouses tower over the ref and say "Yes, Sir. Sorry, Sir". But it's also only football that has this endemic lack of respect for officials: which of course, can only make each passing generation of refs worse than before. Because what kind of person would want to be a referee in the first place? Only an attention seeker or a Joe 90 little Hitler type.

Over the years, the "Sir" has become closer to a "with all due respect" idiom. They say it but you can tell they don't want to. (At least it's still observed and you don't get the behaviour we've had to watch in a few games this tournament).

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

On 24/06/2018 at 11:17, davemclaren said:

Ultimately we will be able to do away with Referees and Linesman and just leave all decisions and the running of the game to the technology. I give it 10 years before we have that sort of technology. 

 

Is the technology prodestant or Catholic? 

[shaun.lawson]

16 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

The other one I'd introduce is mandatory 10 minutes off the pitch for a head injury assessment for any player who goes to the ground clutching his head. Bunch of effing pussies.

 

Hmm. Yet by the same token, football is miles behind when it comes to properly observing concussion protocols - because it'd involve players being off the pitch too long, leaving their team down to ten men through no fault of its own.

 

How to solve this? By allowing rolling substitutions for as long as a player is being checked. That'd be a massive change to the game, but I think it's very necessary.

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Hmm. Yet by the same token, football is miles behind when it comes to properly observing concussion protocols - because it'd involve players being off the pitch too long, leaving their team down to ten men through no fault of its own.

 

How to solve this? By allowing rolling substitutions for as long as a player is being checked. That'd be a massive change to the game, but I think it's very necessary.

 

An excellent idea. It's ridiculous that something like that has not already been done. My guess is because to do so would admit football does cause damage. That's something they want to avoid. (even tho we all know it.) 

[shaun.lawson]

If only football were like this, and had referees like this.

 

 

 

[John Findlay]

If VAR was working in the way it is intended to. We wouldn't be having threads like this. It's flawed and therefore should not be in use imho. If that makes me a neanderthal in the eyes of some then I'm happy to be so.

[The Internet]

I'm completely sold on it after last night. I mean it's an absolute nonsense and will never ever work properly but can't argue with the drama. 

[Maroon Sailor]

35 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

If VAR was working in the way it is intended to. We wouldn't be having threads like this. It's flawed and therefore should not be in use imho. If that makes me a neanderthal in the eyes of some then I'm happy to be so.

 

It was embarrassing last night and it changed the whole dynamics of that group. Nearly cost Portugal a place in the next round altogether.

 

A complete shambles to be honest

[Dalstonjambo]

As someone who has to jog up the road to Haymarket to catch the 5.15 back to Kings Cross most weeks if we finish late i'm very anti var. If we had anything like that Portugal game last night I wouldn't get home until Monday!

I enjoyed the irony of 2 rugby videos being posted as examples of what the game should be like. One which is about a player being told off for diving. In rugby? Surely not!

[Dave McCreery's knee]

I hate it. The game is supposed to be about quick decisions by players and officials. Human error, in my view, is an integral part of the game. Be it a goalie’s fumbke, missed penalty, ref getting a decision wrong. 

To me, VAR is driven by the huge amounts of cash that are in the game, including betting. I can see advert breaks whilst VAR decisions being made. 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

 

This is where I am with VAR. For it to properly work in the end we need the ref to stick to his guns and say no I'm happy my initial decision after reviewing the incident. I think VAR puts them under pressure to change their minds.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Maroon Sailor

[Chaps]

Don’t have to worry about VAR getting used in Scotland as we can’t afford it along with goal line technology 

[Maroon Sailor]

 

Shearer must have been reading my comments in another VAR thread. Said exactly the same.

 

Great minds think alike !

[Spellczech]

I think the problems last night derived from Egypt's complaint against the Paraguayan ref in their game against Russia. I suspect the VAR in Moscow was told to keep an eye on the ref last night, and therefore exceeded his remit. Three "Oi, look again please" calls in one half of football was more than we've seen in any other match...

[Escobar PHM]

I like VAR. Just about every decision reversed or made using it in the World cup has been right. Its also adds to the drama and as long as its done quickly, I think its a good addition.

Last night though !! FFS how can that ref look at that 5 or 6 times from multiple angles and still get it so badly wrong. He's a lucky boy that Iran missed the last minute sitter.

Having said that, there was at least one penalty shout for Iran that wasn't referred and looked worth doing so.

[Escobar PHM]

12 hours ago, Smoked-Glass said:

We would have lost 2 more derbies if they had var.  No thanks.

True, but we might have won the league in 05/06 if they'd had it for the Celtic new year game ??

[Cruyff Turn]

10 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Hmm. Yet by the same token, football is miles behind when it comes to properly observing concussion protocols - because it'd involve players being off the pitch too long, leaving their team down to ten men through no fault of its own.

 

How to solve this? By allowing rolling substitutions for as long as a player is being checked. That'd be a massive change to the game, but I think it's very necessary.

 There should be head assessments. 

 

It's p ridiculous that in 2018 two centerbacks, in the same side, could go up for a header and both take a dunt which could leave them with a head injury. Now if they both go off for stitches, their team be playing with 9 men for what could be as long as 10 minutes. 

 

100% agree that we should be using temporary replacement. 

[Rudy T]

What I'm still a little unsure of is what's included in VAR. Is it only for penalties? Or only used within 20 yards of the goal.

 

Been a number of off the ball incidents which seem to go unchecked...iirc a German player threw an arm out in their last game which didn't seem subject to VAR.

[Spellczech]

35 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

I like VAR. Just about every decision reversed or made using it in the World cup has been right. Its also adds to the drama and as long as its done quickly, I think its a good addition.

Last night though !! FFS how can that ref look at that 5 or 6 times from multiple angles and still get it so badly wrong. He's a lucky boy that Iran missed the last minute sitter.

Having said that, there was at least one penalty shout for Iran that wasn't referred and looked worth doing so.

I think it was telling that the last angle he was shown appeared to be a slo-mo of the ball hitting the arm. To me that was irrelevant, we all knew the ball hit Cedric's arm - the question was whether there was any intention on Cedric's behalf, whether it blocked a goalbound header and whether the arm was at an angle that it shouldn't have been...

[Escobar PHM]

31 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I think it was telling that the last angle he was shown appeared to be a slo-mo of the ball hitting the arm. To me that was irrelevant, we all knew the ball hit Cedric's arm - the question was whether there was any intention on Cedric's behalf, whether it blocked a goalbound header and whether the arm was at an angle that it shouldn't have been...

I have looked at this dozens of times now. There is a very slight movement of the arm towards the ball but it looks due to the guys up and down movement when he's jumping rather than an intentional blocking of the ball. I can only think that that slight movement has been viewed as deliberate. Otherwise its simply a wrong decision and the ref's allowed himself to be pressured into it. They have the right to overrule the VAR if they think the original decision is correct. Ive not really seen a ref doing that yet. In the circumstances Ronaldo was very lucky to stay on because the VAR team obviously thought it was a red, even though it wasn't a red card and they actually got that one right and it was flagged up because the ref clearly hadn't seen any of it, as opposed to seeing it and not making the right decision.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Escobar PHM]

40 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

What I'm still a little unsure of is what's included in VAR. Is it only for penalties? Or only used within 20 yards of the goal.

 

Been a number of off the ball incidents which seem to go unchecked...iirc a German player threw an arm out in their last game which didn't seem subject to VAR.

Red cards

Mistaken identity

Penalties

Offsides.

Goal verification if there may have been a foul in the lead up

[Rudy T]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

Red cards

Mistaken identity

Penalties

Offsides.

Goal verification if there may have been a foul in the lead up

 

Offsides...Presumably if the ball ends up in the net and is or isn't flagged it's reviewed? In which case any player with a chance to score regardless of a flag should score and hope for a favorable review??

[milky_26]

5 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

Offsides...Presumably if the ball ends up in the net and is or isn't flagged it's reviewed? In which case any player with a chance to score regardless of a flag should score and hope for a favorable review??

Yes. The linos have been told if it is a tight offside call to keep their flag down and var can correct it assuming a goal is scored

[Escobar PHM]

11 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

Yes. The linos have been told if it is a tight offside call to keep their flag down and var can correct it assuming a goal is scored

Did the Spanish equaliser get flagged last night. Never noticed.

[1953]

There are lots of references to Rugby in this thread so perhaps the best way forward is for VAR to be used like Rugby uses it. The referee is completely in charge and makes the calls as he sees fit but VAR is there when he and only he calls for it if there was something he wasn't sure about. It should be an aid to the ref when he wants it and not a way for others to interfere with his decisions. 

 

The other point about mandatory assessments for head injuries is also a good point as long as a temp sub can come on while the assessment is being carried out. It might also stop players falling down clutching their faces when they haven't been touched as they'll soon get to know that they will have to go off for 10 minutes or so.

[Smoked-Glass]

2 hours ago, Escobar PHM said:

True, but we might have won the league in 05/06 if they'd had it for the Celtic new year game ??

Might have. Still long way to go.

 

[benny]

39 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Did the Spanish equaliser get flagged last night. Never noticed.

Yes.

Var worked in this case.

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

Might have. Still long way to go.

 

Hmmmmm. We crumbled a bit after that defeat to an extent I always felt. Knocked the heart out of us. I think there would have been a massive momentum swing in our favour had we won that game.

Still we'll never know

 

VAR by the way, would have proved that Oli whatsisnames 'goal' was offside in one of the derbies I assume youre talking about. VAR would not have been consulted for the Griffiths 'goal' because it was no where near the line and quite correctly the referee didn't even consider for a second that it might be a goal.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Des' Dad]

On 6/24/2018 at 12:22, Ray Gin said:

 

Disagree. Poor/wrong decisions don't enhance my enjoyment of the game.

Yes but VAR does not prevent poor/wrong decisions which is my point entirely.

[Des' Dad]

9 hours ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

It was embarrassing last night and it changed the whole dynamics of that group. Nearly cost Portugal a place in the next round altogether.

 

A complete shambles to be honest

Absolutely. VAR does not in any way enhance the matchday experience for people who actually attend games but it's loved by armchair fans because it gets them involved. If it can't be used in every game, and it can't because of cost, it should be binned. Leave the game alone for us fans who enjoy going along to matches.

[Ray Gin]

29 minutes ago, Des' Dad said:

Yes but VAR does not prevent poor/wrong decisions which is my point entirely.

 

It has done more often than not. Definitely still needs refined and the refs to be trained better.

[Ray Gin]

26 minutes ago, Des' Dad said:

Absolutely. VAR does not in any way enhance the matchday experience for people who actually attend games but it's loved by armchair fans because it gets them involved. If it can't be used in every game, and it can't because of cost, it should be binned. Leave the game alone for us fans who enjoy going along to matches.

 

How many games have you attended with VAR in operation?

 

If Hearts were initially robbed of a blatant penalty, but then awarded one after the ref checked VAR, it would definitely enhance my matchday experience compared to seething about being mugged by a crap decision. I would enjoy it immensely. 

 

Imagine Celtic scoring an offside goal and their fans giving it big licks, then VAR is checked and it's chopped off. Would love it. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Ray Gin

[Maroon Sailor]

12 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

How many games have you attended with VAR in operation?

 

If Hearts were initially robbed of a blatant penalty, but then awarded one after the ref checked VAR, it would definitely enhance my matchday experience compared to seething about being mugged by a crap decision. I would enjoy it immensely. 

 

Imagine Celtic scoring an offside goal and their fans giving it big licks, then VAR is checked and it's chopped off. Would love it. 

 

On on the flip side you know VAR is going to favour Celtic more often than not. That Iran penalty is a VAR Celtic penalty all day long and they then go on to hit the winner instead of hitting the side netting.

[John Findlay]

Let's turn the clock back to a Hearts v a then team called Rangers. A Greek defender playing for the then Rangers goes down in the box. The referee says no foul goal kick. Suddenly he gets a voice in his ear. Hugh we up here in VAR think you should look at that again. A Hearts player definitely committed a foul there. Hugh checks still doesn't see a foul let's VAR know goal kick is his award. Hugh your not listening, it's a penalty to Rangers, you get the message Hugh? Aye Andy, penalty to Rangers.

 

 

 

Trust me that is not far fetched. 

[Pans Jambo]

22 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Both this and simulation could've been stopped in a flash many years ago. Start giving red cards out, and no-one would do it any more. But FIFA seem to view it as part of the game?!

Correct. The ref needs to start book players for this & sending managers to the stands as well. 

 

Moaning at the ref. 

Diving like you have been shot. 

Dying & rolling around on the pitch then getting up and running about. 

Walking off when you have been subbed to waste time. 

Doing the “pulling a card out of your pocket” to tell the ref to book a player. 

 

All get right on my tits. I dont pay to watch that shite. 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by Pans Jambo

[I P Knightley]

7 hours ago, 1953 said:

The other point about mandatory assessments for head injuries is also a good point as long as a temp sub can come on while the assessment is being carried out. It might also stop players falling down clutching their faces when they haven't been touched as they'll soon get to know that they will have to go off for 10 minutes or so.

I think it was me who introduced this suggestion.

 

The driver behind me thinking of it was not necessarily concussion but more as an attempt to eradicate the worst of the play acting when a guy takes a brush to anywhere in the upper body as a chance to go down clutching his face. If he had to take 10 minutes off (with a HIA replacement) it might make him think twice.

[LeftBack]

1 minute ago, I P Knightley said:

I think it was me who introduced this suggestion.

 

The driver behind me thinking of it was not necessarily concussion but more as an attempt to eradicate the worst of the play acting when a guy takes a brush to anywhere in the upper body as a chance to go down clutching his face. If he had to take 10 minutes off (with a HIA replacement) it might make him think twice.

It's good idea but might also lead to players with genuine head injuries not wanting treatment because they don't want to go off and that could be serious.

[Jammy T]

1 hour ago, LeftBack said:

It's good idea but might also lead to players with genuine head injuries not wanting treatment because they don't want to go off and that could be serious.

 

If you have concussion/a genuine head injury won’t it be kind of obvious?

[LeftBack]

26 minutes ago, Jammy T said:

 

If you have concussion/a genuine head injury won’t it be kind of obvious?

Probably. And I agree with the idea. I'm just saying some footballers might try and downplay it because they don't want to go off.