Torquay United in trouble

[davemclaren]

Ownership by a fans consortium hasn’t worked out too well. 

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/04/20/sad-demise-torquay-united-may-never-return-football-league/

 

 

 

[SwindonJambo]

2 hours ago, davemclaren said:

Ownership by a fans consortium hasn’t worked out too well. 

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/04/20/sad-demise-torquay-united-may-never-return-football-league/

 

 

 

 

A cautionary tale and a stark reminder that when Ann Budge exits any day to day involvement with the club we will have to have a  rigid and watertight constitution and articles of association to stop us following suit. So no pantwetting, overspending in a dash for glory or other such rash moves.

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

A cautionary tale and a stark reminder that when Ann Budge exits any day to day involvement with the club we will have to have a  rigid and watertight constitution and articles of association to stop us following suit. So no pantwetting, overspending in a dash for glory or other such rash moves.

Absolutely. 

[usagi]

I'm hopeful Ann will agree to stay on when we finally take over, pretty sure she indicated she would consider that. She could be the first hire we make as a fan owned club 

[Don Dan]

28 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

A cautionary tale and a stark reminder that when Ann Budge exits any day to day involvement with the club we will have to have a  rigid and watertight constitution and articles of association to stop us following suit. So no pantwetting, overspending in a dash for glory or other such rash moves.

 

Our fans will be two steps from the Hearts boardroom as it is now. However the need to have the correct person in overall charge is a must. 

[Dagger Is Back]

4 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

A cautionary tale and a stark reminder that when Ann Budge exits any day to day involvement with the club we will have to have a  rigid and watertight constitution and articles of association to stop us following suit. So no pantwetting, overspending in a dash for glory or other such rash moves.

 

Spot on. 

[Francis Albert]

I take a slightly different lesson. That the idea that non-football related revenue is the way to secure the future of a football club could be  a dangerous fallacy. We have been there before 50 years ago. Selling exhibition space and conference facilities in deepest Gorgie could prove to be the equivalent of having an upscale cabaret venue there in the 60's.

[James1874f]

Oh no not Torquay !

[SwindonJambo]

5 hours ago, usagi said:

I'm hopeful Ann will agree to stay on when we finally take over, pretty sure she indicated she would consider that. She could be the first hire we make as a fan owned club 

 

So am I but do bear in mind that she’s 70 years old. At some point down the line, FoH will have to appoint a CEO who is not her and It has to be the right appointment and fans will have to not throw their toys out the pram at the 1st sign of trouble. All of the other fan owned clubs around the U.K. are smaller than Hearts. Until last year, a similar sized club, Pompey spent 4 years in fan ownership after being rescued by our very own Bryan Jackson from near death at the hands of a Reckless Vladesque owner after a roller coaster ride which included a length stay in the EPL and an FA Cup win followed by free fall to the basement division and penury . Last year, after 4 years of stable fan ownership,  they sold out to a foreign investor. So far so good but they’re only a year down the track and this could easily go tits up as it did previously. ForeIgn owners are fine and happy to be seen and accept kudos when things are going well but as soon as the Going gets tough, they lose interest and willingness to support financially as they generally have no heartfelt attachment to the club.

 

  The  trouble with football fans is that many of them are fickle and happy to accept success regardless of the trouble the means of getting it might store up for the future.

[fabienleclerq]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I take a slightly different lesson. That the idea that non-football related revenue is the way to secure the future of a football club could be  a dangerous fallacy. We have been there before 50 years ago. Selling exhibition space and conference facilities in deepest Gorgie could prove to be the equivalent of having an upscale cabaret venue there in the 60's.

 

Its not like we've built a conference centre purely for non football use is it? We are trying to maximise the use of what we have. Gorgie is like a five minute taxi from the town centre too.

[Tazio]

Slightly related but does anyone know why Torquay home games always used to kick off later than anyone else’s?

[RobNox]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

I take a slightly different lesson. That the idea that non-football related revenue is the way to secure the future of a football club could be  a dangerous fallacy. We have been there before 50 years ago. Selling exhibition space and conference facilities in deepest Gorgie could prove to be the equivalent of having an upscale cabaret venue there in the 60's.

 

I don't think we are relying on non-football related revenue to secure our future. We might be looking to improve our future through non-football related revenue, but that's a different scenario.  If we do generate the additional revenues that we hope to as  a result of the new stand development, then I'm sure we'll see some benefit flow through to the footballing budget, but until then, I'm certain we'll be managing within a prudent budget based on current revenue, as we have consistently done under the current regime.

[shaun.lawson]

Sad story. I've kept an eye on Torquay's fortunes ever since 1987: when a dog running onto the pitch saved them on the last day, and sent Lincoln down instead. Torquay scored during the injury time added on for the dog's antics.

 

Then they became this weird team which would spend most of its time clinging on at the foot of the old Fourth Division (being saved one year when Stevenage were disgracefully denied promotion for ground grading reasons)... but would also yo-yo into contention out of nowhere. I remember them missing out on promotion in the last seconds at Leyton Orient and Hells Bells Helen Chamberlain bursting into tears.  

 

But once the EFL brought in the long overdue two up, two down; and once the National League only accepted clubs whose grounds would be good enough for the EFL, Torquay's goose was always going to be cooked at some point.

 

I don't regard this as any sort of cautionary tale against fan ownership at all though. The difference between them and us is (1) We have far, far more fans (2) We're important to Scottish football in a way they're not at all to English football, so their plight hasn't been publicised much (3) Ann Budge v Clarke Osborne. She's a Hearts season ticket holder who's never sought to make money out of the club. He's a dodgy as hell arsehole who doesn't care about their club at all.

 

I hope, as other former League clubs have, they can rebuild and sort themselves out now they've gone down to National League South. But I doubt it, because sadly, they just don't matter enough to enough people. 

[Gorgiewave]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

Sad story. I've kept an eye on Torquay's fortunes ever since 1987: when a dog running onto the pitch saved them on the last day, and sent Lincoln down instead. Torquay scored during the injury time added on for the dog's antics.

 

Then they became this weird team which would spend most of its time clinging on at the foot of the old Fourth Division... but would also yo-yo into contention out of nowhere. I remember them missing out on promotion in the last seconds at Leyton Orient and Hells Bells Helen Chamberlain bursting into tears.  

 

But once the EFL brought in the long overdue two up, two down; and once the National League only accepted clubs whose grounds would be good enough for the EFL, Torquay's goose was always going to be cooked at some point.

 

I don't regard this as any sort of cautionary tale against fan ownership at all though. The difference between them and us is (1) We have far, far more fans (2) We're important to Scottish football in a way they're not at all to English football, so their plight hasn't been publicised much (3) Ann Budge v Clarke Osborne. She's a Hearts season ticket holder who's never sought to make money out of the club. He's a dodgy as hell arsehole who doesn't care about their club at all.

 

I hope, as other former League clubs have, they can rebuild and sort themselves out now they've gone down. But I doubt it, because sadly, they just don't matter enough to enough people. 

Value-added post.

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

Sad story. I've kept an eye on Torquay's fortunes ever since 1987: when a dog running onto the pitch saved them on the last day, and sent Lincoln down instead. Torquay scored during the injury time added on for the dog's antics.

 

Then they became this weird team which would spend most of its time clinging on at the foot of the old Fourth Division (being saved one year when Stevenage were disgracefully denied promotion for ground grading reasons)... but would also yo-yo into contention out of nowhere. I remember them missing out on promotion in the last seconds at Leyton Orient and Hells Bells Helen Chamberlain bursting into tears.  

 

But once the EFL brought in the long overdue two up, two down; and once the National League only accepted clubs whose grounds would be good enough for the EFL, Torquay's goose was always going to be cooked at some point.

 

I don't regard this as any sort of cautionary tale against fan ownership at all though. The difference between them and us is (1) We have far, far more fans (2) We're important to Scottish football in a way they're not at all to English football, so their plight hasn't been publicised much (3) Ann Budge v Clarke Osborne. She's a Hearts season ticket holder who's never sought to make money out of the club. He's a dodgy as hell arsehole who doesn't care about their club at all.

 

I hope, as other former League clubs have, they can rebuild and sort themselves out now they've gone down to National League South. But I doubt it, because sadly, they just don't matter enough to enough people. 

 

Are there any teams you don't profess to keep an eye out for or have an interest in?

 

Any thread about any team and you arrive to tell us about your affinity for them. 

 

I'm starting to think you're a bullshit artist. 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

Are there any teams you don't profess to keep an eye out for or have an interest in?

 

Any thread about any team and you arrive to tell us about your affinity for them. 

 

I'm starting to think you're a bullshit artist. 

 

"Kept an eye on" does not equal "affinity for". And as I said some time back, I know precisely what your game is. Like the Old Firm, it won't wash.  

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

"Kept an eye on" does not equal "affinity for". And as I said some time back, I know precisely what your game is. Like the Old Firm, it won't wash.  

 

I should add there is nothing really wrong with being a bullshiter, if it makes you happy it doesn't bother me at all. 

 

As for 'my game' it's simply calling posts and posters as I see them. No offence is intended. 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

As for 'my game' it's simply calling posts and posters as I see them. No offence is intended. 

 

No it's not. It's to be a windup merchant instead. Hope this helps. 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No it's not. It's to be a windup merchant instead. Hope this helps. 

 

Why would I want to wind you up? I don't know you, you don't know me. Why would I bother? 

 

Lets move on then, how often do you get to Tynecastle? 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

Why would I want to wind you up? I don't know you, you don't know me. Why would I bother? 

 

Lets move on then, how often do you get to Tynecastle? 

 

"Torquay United in trouble". 

[hughesie27]

 Turning a thread into a food fight because you can't resist the urge to have a go at an easy target ?

[Serge Pizzorno]

3 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

 Turning a thread into a food fight because you can't resist the urge to have a go at an easy target ?

This x100, how pathetic?

[jkbmod 9]

'Torquay United in trouble'.

 

Please stay on-topic.

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

I see Shaun’s falling into his own trap again by forgetting this is a forum for supporters of a football club that has existed since 1874 and not his personal blog. 

 

Shaun, please don’t forget you’re just one of us, we’re not your audience. 

 

Point taken - I know I'm my own worst enemy very often - but The Terrace is for discussion of HMFC and football in general, and this thread's about Torquay United.  

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Barack said:

Shaun, old bean. How old are you, if I may ask? 

 

(Terrible news about Torquay. Helen must be inconsolable...)

 

?

 

39, why?

[DETTY29]

Rather (F×ckin) Hells Bells had self combusted than burst in to a flood of tears.

 

 

[jambo1961]

Re TUFC that whole story just stinks of tarry fingers

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If it wasn't for people having teenage crushes on Helen Chamberlain, no one would give a toss.

[Tasavallan]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

Sad story. I've kept an eye on Torquay's fortunes ever since 1987: when a dog running onto the pitch saved them on the last day, and sent Lincoln down instead. Torquay scored during the injury time added on for the dog's antics.

 

Then they became this weird team which would spend most of its time clinging on at the foot of the old Fourth Division (being saved one year when Stevenage were disgracefully denied promotion for ground grading reasons)... but would also yo-yo into contention out of nowhere. I remember them missing out on promotion in the last seconds at Leyton Orient and Hells Bells Helen Chamberlain bursting into tears.  

 

But once the EFL brought in the long overdue two up, two down; and once the National League only accepted clubs whose grounds would be good enough for the EFL, Torquay's goose was always going to be cooked at some point.

 

I don't regard this as any sort of cautionary tale against fan ownership at all though. The difference between them and us is (1) We have far, far more fans (2) We're important to Scottish football in a way they're not at all to English football, so their plight hasn't been publicised much (3) Ann Budge v Clarke Osborne. She's a Hearts season ticket holder who's never sought to make money out of the club. He's a dodgy as hell arsehole who doesn't care about their club at all.

 

I hope, as other former League clubs have, they can rebuild and sort themselves out now they've gone down to National League South. But I doubt it, because sadly, they just don't matter enough to enough people. 

 

Well observed Shaun.   I have kept an eye on both Darlington and Hartlepool from the time I lived on Teesside.  Darlington were dragged through the mill by a publicity seeking owner ending up being liquidated, reforming as a 'new' club in the bottom tier of the pyramid and sharing a 3K capacity ground with Darlington RFC, while their overly ambitious old 25K stadium (costing £18M to build) with attendences of under 2,000 is now owned by Mowden Park RFC (bought for £2M).  (Many similarities to Sevco)

 

The plight of Hartlepool Utd has been well documented by that man on the telly.

 

Both clubs suffered at the hands of owners who had little interest in their clubs, unlike at HMFC where Ann Budge has the best interest of the club at heart.

[davemclaren]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If it wasn't for people having teenage crushes on Helen Chamberlain, no one would give a toss.

She certainly adds a bit of interest ( though as I am older thsn her I’d ruke out a teenage crush ) but it does have a bit of relevance to us as it seens to be a consortium of fan owners who have sleep walked their club into this. I’m not sure if this is a consortium of just a handful of supporters or a wider grouping. 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, davemclaren said:

She certainly adds a bit of interest ( though as I am older thsn her I’d ruke out a teenage crush ) but it does have a bit of relevance to us as it seens to be a consortium of fan owners who have sleep walked their club into this. I’m not sure if this is a consortium of just a handful of supporters or a wider grouping. 

 

I don't really think that's fair though. They'd already gone down to the National League when the fan-led consortium took over; in other words, they were already in a right old state. And that consortium could only do so via a loan which wasn't repaid because the money couldn't be raised. 

 

It wasn't as though there were other options on the table. They just did the best they could - but unlike Hearts or Ann Budge, didn't have the number of fans or the guarantor necessary. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

She certainly adds a bit of interest ( though as I am older thsn her I’d ruke out a teenage crush ) but it does have a bit of relevance to us as it seens to be a consortium of fan owners who have sleep walked their club into this. I’m not sure if this is a consortium of just a handful of supporters or a wider grouping. 

Torquay have been perennial strugglers, saved for years by the farcical re-election system in England. They are sinking to their true level.

[Hendricks]

3 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

If it wasn't for people having teenage crushes on Helen Chamberlain, no one would give a toss.

 

She looks like Kyle Lafferty’s twin. You are saying that men thought she was attractive?! Jesus. ?

[Saint Jambo]

The Guardian published a story a which gives a clearer account of the ownership:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/16/torquay-fans-fear-relegation-losing-home-96-years-plainmoor

They weren't a fan owned club as we would understand it.

 

My understanding from quickly googling a few sites (so may not be 100% accurate): The club was financed by a lottery winning couple at a level above sustainability. When the husband died the wife continued funding for a while before passing it on to a consortium of 10 local businessmen (this is the 'fan ownership stage). They also seem to have taken on a significant level of debt for the size of the club. After each businessman put in £40k (not clear but it may have been down to 5 businessmen in the consortium by this stage), they then needed a loan to continue to fund it. At this point Gaming International stepped in to provide a loan. This a is company that were previously responsible for emptying Bristol Rovers from their ground and selling the land which is now the site of an IKEA. The loan to Torquay couldn't be repaid. The Telegraph story claims that there might have been a clause that said at this point ownership passed to Gaming International, but BBC stories at the time seem to suggest there were other potential buyers making it sound more like a normal sale. Either way the club is owned by Gaming International who seem interested in redeveloping the ground but haven't done so, whilst fans believe they may want to asset strip the ground from the club (although there are also references online to the council owning the land which would make that approach seem infeasible). The club is now on the verge of being demoted from the Conference/National League which they were in when the local businessmen consortium to the Conference/ National League  South.

 

Take away from this is that:

- The club was never fan owned, in the sense of mass fan ownership.

- The relegation of the club is not down to owner's/ fans being too involved in day-to-day decisions within the club.

- The club is not struggling as a result of focusing too much on non-match day revenue.. Although Gaming International have talked about this being their vision, they haven't actually made any steps in this direction. (Unless FA has more details about how the club was aiming to run on non-match day income earlier in their existence.)

 

It is maybe hard for us to get our head around in Scotland where towns with a population in four figures play in a national league, but with a population of 65,000 Torquay won't be particularly large to only have a team playing in a regional league in England.  Other teams in National South include Bath (pop. 88,000), St Albans (58,000), Eastbourne (103,000), Chelmsford (110,000), Dartford (105,000). As Shaun Lawson said above, it isn't a surprise that Torquay find themselves at that level.

[davemclaren]

6 minutes ago, Saint Jambo said:

The Guardian published a story a which gives a clearer account of the ownership:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/apr/16/torquay-fans-fear-relegation-losing-home-96-years-plainmoor

They weren't a fan owned club as we would understand it.

 

My understanding from quickly googling a few sites (so may not be 100% accurate): The club was financed by a lottery winning couple at a level above sustainability. When the husband died the wife continued funding for a while before passing it on to a consortium of 10 local businessmen (this is the 'fan ownership stage). They also seem to have taken on a significant level of debt for the size of the club. After each businessman put in £40k (not clear but it may have been down to 5 businessmen in the consortium by this stage), they then needed a loan to continue to fund it. At this point Gaming International stepped in to provide a loan. This a is company that were previously responsible for emptying Bristol Rovers from their ground and selling the land which is now the site of an IKEA. The loan to Torquay couldn't be repaid. The Telegraph story claims that there might have been a clause that said at this point ownership passed to Gaming International, but BBC stories at the time seem to suggest there were other potential buyers making it sound more like a normal sale. Either way the club is owned by Gaming International who seem interested in redeveloping the ground but haven't done so, whilst fans believe they may want to asset strip the ground from the club (although there are also references online to the council owning the land which would make that approach seem infeasible). The club is now on the verge of being demoted from the Conference/National League which they were in when the local businessmen consortium to the Conference/ National League  South.

 

Take away from this is that:

- The club was never fan owned, in the sense of mass fan ownership.

- The relegation of the club is not down to owner's/ fans being too involved in day-to-day decisions within the club.

- The club is not struggling as a result of focusing too much on non-match day revenue.. Although Gaming International have talked about this being their vision, they haven't actually made any steps in this direction. (Unless FA has more details about how the club was aiming to run on non-match day income earlier in their existence.)

 

It is maybe hard for us to get our head around in Scotland where towns with a population in four figures play in a national league, but with a population of 65,000 Torquay won't be particularly large to only have a team playing in a regional league in England.  Other teams in National South include Bath (pop. 88,000), St Albans (58,000), Eastbourne (103,000), Chelmsford (110,000), Dartford (105,000). As Shaun Lawson said above, it isn't a surprise that Torquay find themselves at that level.

Thanks for the info. The population figures illustrate the wider demogrsphic challenge for Scottish football. The towns you mention are on a par size wise with, say, Perth and Paisley ( there’s a song there somewhere ) who have teams that are top league, most of the time. 

[EIEIO]

13 hours ago, Tazio said:

Slightly related but does anyone know why Torquay home games always used to kick off later than anyone else’s?

I was told it was so that visiting teams and fans had to spend the night in a hotel or guest house in Torquay thus boosting the coffers of local businesses. Could be pish but is plausible enough to be true.

[kirkierobroy]

2 minutes ago, EIEIO said:

13 hours ago, Tazio said:

Slightly related but does anyone know why Torquay home games always used to kick off later than anyone else’s?

I was told it was so that visiting teams and fans had to spend the night in a hotel or guest house in Torquay thus boosting the coffers of local businesses. Could be pish but is plausible enough to be true.

 

I remembered their odd kick-off times too. Would love that explanation to be true. "Why is the kick-off so late?" "Because Basil Fawlty wants it that way."

 

No dafter a reason than for some of the bonkers KO times we get now.

[Doc Rob]

Not the same circumstances, but a cautionary tale for us. Fan ownership is miles better than being run by lunatics and having no say. The average fan is pretty clueless though and fan ownership should NOT result in actual fans running the day-to-day business of the club. That should be done by proper business people who are employed by the fans (via the Foundation) and answerable to them. This should be subject to regular performance review and the fans should be able to replace them if this is unsatisfactory - but we should not be able to demand for heads to roll at once if we are having a tricky season.

[MacDonald Jardine]

37 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

Not the same circumstances, but a cautionary tale for us. Fan ownership is miles better than being run by lunatics and having no say. The average fan is pretty clueless though and fan ownership should NOT result in actual fans running the day-to-day business of the club. That should be done by proper business people who are employed by the fans (via the Foundation) and answerable to them. This should be subject to regular performance review and the fans should be able to replace them if this is unsatisfactory - but we should not be able to demand for heads to roll at once if we are having a tricky season.

You're absolutely right but it'll be easier said than done.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, Doc Rob said:

Not the same circumstances, but a cautionary tale for us. Fan ownership is miles better than being run by lunatics and having no say. The average fan is pretty clueless though and fan ownership should NOT result in actual fans running the day-to-day business of the club. That should be done by proper business people who are employed by the fans (via the Foundation) and answerable to them. This should be subject to regular performance review and the fans should be able to replace them if this is unsatisfactory - but we should not be able to demand for heads to roll at once if we are having a tricky season.

Fan ownership is going to end up with every Tom, Dick and Harry thinking they own a sheepskin coat and can call the shots. As fans are stupid, this will be a recipe for disaster.

[RobboM]

17 hours ago, Tazio said:

Slightly related but does anyone know why Torquay home games always used to kick off later than anyone else’s?

I think it was because they are close by to Exeter and Plymouth and attracted a few more fans that wanted to watch other Devon teams when they also had home matches. As a Cornishman I can just say **** Devon!

 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Unless you have an affinity to Torquay, it’s hard to care. Football’s a game of natural selection and in no way are Torquay entitled to a place in the football league.

[mitch41]

I've been to a Torquay game down in Devon while on holiday many years ago.

Nice little club who have lost their way.

[Maroon Sailor]

21 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

Value-added post.

 

He didn't give the dog's name

 

 

[Maroon Sailor]

 

Love the handler saying the dog was just doing his job. Aye biting in to the thigh of a Torquay player !

 

 

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

36 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Love the handler saying the dog was just doing his job. Aye biting in to the thigh of a Torquay player !

 

 

 

 

I wasn't expecting David Platt to be playing in this game. Playing in a World Cup three years later.

[Maroon Sailor]

13 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I wasn't expecting David Platt to be playing in this game. Playing in a World Cup three years later.

 

Geoff Thomas went on to play for England as well

[Francis Albert]

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 21:40, fabienleclerq said:

 

Its not like we've built a conference centre purely for non football use is it? We are trying to maximise the use of what we have. Gorgie is like a five minute taxi from the town centre too.

But we have built a lot of space and seem either to have changed our minds about how to fill it or only belatedly thinking of how to fill it, The conference/exhibition stuff wasn't as far as I recall mentioned in the initial plans. As for location, Gorgie has, unlike numerous other conference, meeting and exhibition venues in the city, has no decent hotel accomodation within walking distance.

[Francis Albert]

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 23:08, RobNox said:

 

I don't think we are relying on non-football related revenue to secure our future. We might be looking to improve our future through non-football related revenue, but that's a different scenario.  If we do generate the additional revenues that we hope to as  a result of the new stand development, then I'm sure we'll see some benefit flow through to the footballing budget, but until then, I'm certain we'll be managing within a prudent budget based on current revenue, as we have consistently done under the current regime.

As football clubs (including Hearts) have found that "diversification" ventures  can also lose money with a negative effect on the football side of the business.

And while perhaps a cheap shot, the stand project itself has not been a model of planning, budget control  or project management.

[Francis Albert]

On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 14:36, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Fan ownership is going to end up with every Tom, Dick and Harry thinking they own a sheepskin coat and can call the shots. As fans are stupid, this will be a recipe for disaster.

Fortunately or otherwise depending on your view of the intelligence of fans (my own view is that they have often seen things going wrong a lot quicker than those in charge of running the club) a look at the proposed governance proposals should duisabuse anyone of the notion that there is any risk Tom, Dick or Harry or indeed the FoH members en masse "calling the shots". FoH members' role is to continue their subs while self selected people with "special expertise" run the show.

But you have to have a good memory to recall the latest governance proposals, which were issued almost a year ago, with a consultation period ending 8 months ago, with still no summary released of comments received or of any response to those comments. 

The message seems to be "know your place" while being grateful for baubles like virtual plots.