Alistair Wilson Murder Case

[Guest Paul Allen]

On 29/11/2017 at 07:53, Armageddon said:

And then there’s the murder weapon, only 13 found in the UK, yet 12 months ago a second was found in Nairn.  German made antique pistols used during the war, could it be the son or grandson or somebody local?

 

So, 3 of these German made pistols found in Nairn. The murder weapon, one identical to the murder weapon, and another very similar to the murder weapon. The identical one was handed in last year after a house clear-out, and it was brought back from Germany as a trophy by someone from Nairn who was kept as a PoW in WW2. Since 2008 there has been 11 of these recovered in the UK, another one in Scotland which makes 3 inclusive of the murder weapon, so to get two in a relatively small place like Nairn must be significant. The non-identical one was apparently owned by a Polish allied soldier  with connections to Nairn if I am picking that up right. Certainly not a prevelant gun in the UK, but the bullets were seemingly modern ammunition not nornally associated with that pistol.

[Judge Fudge]

17 hours ago, scott herbertson said:

One thing against the professional hitman theory is he just knocked on the door, with his face visible, the wife answered the door and he sent her to get the husband

 

cant believe a professsional would allow a full facial view to a potential witness. Why not just get Wilson when he is on his own?

A pro wouldn't have done that surely, unless the wife was involved. Life insurance or an affair maybe? As has been said a pro would end him right there and then. Could have been a low calibrate weapon.

[jake]

On 29/11/2017 at 08:25, Martin_T said:

 

Professional to an extent, he survived long enough to be taken to hospital, maybe I've been watching too many films but I would expect a professional assassin to render a trip to hospital as moot.

Also the fact that the gun was so rare .

For me it's been personal.

[Yoda]

On 29/11/2017 at 08:07, Dawnrazor said:

We could turn this into a TV series, "Kickback Cold Cases" I suspect the "Jack the Ripper" episode will be a hit!

Half of JKB will have Craig Levein as the culprit.

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

7 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Half of JKB will have Craig Levein as the culprit.

Definetly no one from Hearts

 

We struggle to get a shot on target in 90 mins

[JWL]

4 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Half of JKB will have Craig Levein as the culprit.

 

Nobody from Hearts would have been willing to shoot.

 

Anyway, what if the wife was in on it? She knows the shooter, maybe even having an affair with him and he's prepared to do the husband, after all it does seem pretty amateurish. Guy knocks on the door, she answers knowing full well who he is, gets her husband saying 'it's for you', husband goes to see who it is and bang, broon breid. 

No idea where the envelope with 'Paul' comes into play though.

[Irufushi]

Reckon the wife’s in on it.

[Gorgiewave]

Quite a lot of people on this thread who're sure of what a professional hitman would and would not do.

[scott herbertson]

2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Quite a lot of people on this thread who're sure of what a professional hitman would and would not do.

 

 

 

Best not to delve into that too deeply with us

 

 

 

 

[JWL]

Also, the wife told the police that the guy at the door was 6 foot plus and stockily built. Could well be 5 ft 5 with a physique like Charles Hawtrey. 

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

 

Best not to delve into that too deeply with us

 

 

 

 

An excellent book and film.

[Gorgiewave]

Has it ever been made public what Alistair Wilson said to his wife when he went inside with the envelope? If some kind of threat had already been made, why go back to the door and not call the police from inside the house? If not a threat, why would he need to consult his wife about what had been said on the doorstep? Was what was said about her or would it affect her?

 

If a stranger came to my door and handed me an empty envelope for no obvious reason, I'd be suspicious and wouldn't engage further.

[scott herbertson]

6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Has it ever been made public what Alistair Wilson said to his wife when he went inside with the envelope? If some kind of threat had already been made, why go back to the door and not call the police from inside the house? If not a threat, why would he need to consult his wife about what had been said on the doorstep? Was what was said about her or would it affect her?

 

If a stranger came to my door and handed me an empty envelope for no obvious reason, I'd be suspicious and wouldn't engage further.

 

The logical conclusion is that he had been asked to put something (money?) in the envelope - why else leave the giver of the envelope at the door and come inside if not to fetch something to put in it and return to him.

 

if Wilson said to his wife- “there’s a strange man at the door - do you know someone callled Paul?” then the inference would be that it was a gambling debt and mistaken identity. If the envelope was not discussed then the inference would be it was not mistaken identity and Wilson was “buying time” to think about it. If the former it’s hard to believe the visitor would have been instructed to kill him if the money was not received. After all, his death would mean no money to be had, and he seems to have had means.

 

if the latter then perhaps he tried to bluff it out, got nowhere, the gun was drawn as a threat and perhaps a scuffle got out of hand.

 

the police must certainly know more than they are revealing (as they are not detailing the conversation between husband and wife) which suggest to me a gamblin* debt and they are fishing for more witnesses or 8nside info as they haven’t enough to proceeed.

[Gorgiewave]

13 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

The logical conclusion is that he had been asked to put something (money?) in the envelope - why else leave the giver of the envelope at the door and come inside if not to fetch something to put in it and return to him.

 

if Wilson said to his wife- “there’s a strange man at the door - do you know someone callled Paul?” then the inference would be that it was a gambling debt and mistaken identity. If the envelope was not discussed then the inference would be it was not mistaken identity and Wilson was “buying time” to think about it. If the former it’s hard to believe the visitor would have been instructed to kill him if the money was not received. After all, his death would mean no money to be had, and he seems to have had means.

 

if the latter then perhaps he tried to bluff it out, got nowhere, the gun was drawn as a threat and perhaps a scuffle got out of hand.

 

the police must certainly know more than they are revealing (as they are not detailing the conversation between husband and wife) which suggest to me a gamblin* debt and they are fishing for more witnesses or 8nside info as they haven’t enough to proceeed.

 

Presumably the envelope was discussed, otherwise how would Veronica Wilson know it said Paul on it? Unless she noticed that by chance.

 

Also, why a gambling debt specifically? Could it have been another debt?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Gorgiewave

[scott herbertson]

34 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Presumably the envelope was discussed, otherwise how would Veronica Wilson know it said Paul on it? Unless she noticed that by chance.

 

Also, why a gambling debt specifically? Could it have been another debt?

 

Sorry I meant if it wasn’t discussed in the sense that Alistair didn’t say it was mysterious, ie he understood what was required of him and didn’t think it surprising ( I realise that isn’t was it is implied in the reporting)

 

Gambling debts are probably the most commmon ones where violence is threatened (as court action isn’t always possible, although it is more so since the Gambling Act)

[FWJ]

Presumably all we know about this, and the sequence of events, is from what the wife has said?

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Presumably all we know about this, and the sequence of events, is from what the wife has said?

 

There doesn't seem to be any other confirmed witness, except their children who presumably heard the shots.

[Gorgiewave]

Apparently they did discuss the envelope and didn't know its meaning:

 

"We thought it was strange but there was no sense of danger or threat," said Mrs Wilson.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/one-year-on-who-killed-alistair-wilson-517368.html

[FWJ]

The envelope that was never found....

[scott herbertson]

15 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Apparently they did discuss the envelope and didn't know its meaning:

 

"We thought it was strange but there was no sense of danger or threat," said Mrs Wilson.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/one-year-on-who-killed-alistair-wilson-517368.html

 

Its frustratingly uninformative

 

Wilson told his wife he didn’t know the man and presumably at that point showed her the envelope (why and what Explanation did he give?). It begs the questions,  as there was “no sense of danger or threat” why didn’t he just send the man away , why leave him at the  door, and what did the man want. Surely the man didn’t just silently give him an envelope or suggest he showed it to his wife without any explanation of why he was there and what he wanted.

 

if the police want answers they should surely reveal a little more?

Edited December 4, 2017 by scott herbertson

[Gorgiewave]

11 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

Its frustratingly uninformative

 

Wilson told his wife he didn’t know the man and presumably at that point showed her the envelope (why and what Explanation did he give?). It begs the questions,  as there was “no sense of danger or threat” why didn’t he just send the man away , why leave him at the  door, and what did the man want. Surely the man didn’t just silently give him an envelope or suggest he showed it to his wife without any explanation of why he was there and what he wanted.

 

if the police want answers they should surely reveal a little more?

I read that Mr Wilson had a "muffled conversation" with the murderer before going inside. Does this mean it sounded muffled from upstairs or did they lower their voices?

 

I agree that it makes no sense to just hand over an envelope without an explanation, unless it was supposed to be obvious to Mr Wilson. Either way, Mr Wilson surely knew the purpose of the envelope. If so, did he tell his wife?

 

If no explanation had been volunteered or given after being asked, why did he go back inside? Going indoors and reporting, "There's a man at the door who just gave me an envelope but I don't know who he is or what he wants" is a scenario a child would get into, not a grown man.

 

 

[scott herbertson]

10 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I read that Mr Wilson had a "muffled conversation" with the murderer before going inside. Does this mean it sounded muffled from upstairs or did they lower their voices?

 

I agree that it makes no sense to just hand over an envelope without an explanation, unless it was supposed to be obvious to Mr Wilson. Either way, Mr Wilson surely knew the purpose of the envelope. If so, did he tell his wife?

 

If no explanation had been volunteered or given after being asked, why did he go back inside? Going indoors and reporting, "There's a man at the door who just gave me an envelope but I don't know who he is or what he wants" is a scenario a child would get into, not a grown man.

 

 

 

 

Yes, either Mrs Wilson can’t remembervwhstvwas said due to the trauma, or Mr Wilson surely gave some clearer account to her of what was said at the door and the police for whatever reason don’t want that known

[Zico]

38 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I read that Mr Wilson had a "muffled conversation" with the murderer before going inside. Does this mean it sounded muffled from upstairs or did they lower their voices?

 

I agree that it makes no sense to just hand over an envelope without an explanation, unless it was supposed to be obvious to Mr Wilson. Either way, Mr Wilson surely knew the purpose of the envelope. If so, did he tell his wife?

 

If no explanation had been volunteered or given after being asked, why did he go back inside? Going indoors and reporting, "There's a man at the door who just gave me an envelope but I don't know who he is or what he wants" is a scenario a child would get into, not a grown man.

 

 

The muffled conversation was, I think, because they were downstairs. And apparently went on for a few minutes. Contrary to others opinions, I think his missus knew **** all about it. I think he knew exactly what it was about and played dumb to her, thinking he could talk his way out of it. 

[Dawnrazor]

Is the wife the only one saying there was a man at the door?

[Armageddon]

The envelope was blue and looked like something that would come with a greetings card, not something you would expect money to be stuffed into.

 

This Criminal Psychologist that received an 8 page document, the document names a second witness and gave the details of the blue envelope with the name Paul on it, the Police have then confirmed this to be correct.

 

'Allegedly' in the circles of the legal world it's well know what's gone on here and they are meant to be unbelievably close to making an arrest.

[SUTOL]

6 hours ago, Armageddon said:

 

'Allegedly' in the circles of the legal world it's well know what's gone on here and they are meant to be unbelievably close to making an arrest.

 

 

Stay safe Dawnrazor.  

 

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

6 hours ago, Armageddon said:

The envelope was blue and looked like something that would come with a greetings card, not something you would expect money to be stuffed into.

 

This Criminal Psychologist that received an 8 page document, the document names a second witness and gave the details of the blue envelope with the name Paul on it, the Police have then confirmed this to be correct.

 

'Allegedly' in the circles of the legal world it's well know what's gone on here and they are meant to be unbelievably close to making an arrest.

 

Always got socks for his birthday type post.

[Tommy Brown]

10 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Is the wife the only one saying there was a man at the door?

Getting nervous?

[Locky]

Don't believe the envelope was empty. Clearly there was something inside which has been disposed of. A letter would be my best bet.

 

Of course the police know far more than their letting on. Do we honestly believe Joe Public knows more or as much as them?

 

It has to be something of a criminal nature. No idea what or why he was the target, but no way this isn't somewhat professional.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Good article on the BBC site, mentions a possible Loyalist paramilitary connection.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_doorstep_murder_alistair_wilson

[William H. Bonney]

10 hours ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Good article on the BBC site, mentions a possible Loyalist paramilitary connection.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_doorstep_murder_alistair_wilson

 

I like the theory of money owed to criminals. My guess is the envelope with the name Paul on it was expected to be handed back with cash in it. 

It's an extremely interesting case. 

[ri Alban]

I take it the wife has been ruled out?

[steve123]

A bit of a bump for this thread, apparently they have police over in Canada speaking to his friend who owned the pub opposite his house.

 

They had a bit of a fall out about decking or something of a sort, seems a bit of a stretch to go from golfing partners to murder over decking but who knows.

[HamishMcGonagall]

I just listened to a podcast series about this not too long ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p067wdql for anyone who likes that kind of thing.

[steve123]

34 minutes ago, HamishMcGonagall said:

I just listened to a podcast series about this not too long ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p067wdql for anyone who likes that kind of thing.

Cheers will give a listen.

[Pluto]

On 04/12/2017 at 12:48, Armageddon said:

The envelope was blue and looked like something that would come with a greetings card, not something you would expect money to be stuffed into.

 

This Criminal Psychologist that received an 8 page document, the document names a second witness and gave the details of the blue envelope with the name Paul on it, the Police have then confirmed this to be correct.

 

'Allegedly' in the circles of the legal world it's well know what's gone on here and they are meant to be unbelievably close to making an arrest.

2022 now so this clearly wasn't the case.

[Armageddon]

17 hours ago, Pluto said:

2022 now so this clearly wasn't the case.

 

Aye total rubbish.  I was told by an ex-copper they knew the background and were close to making an arrest, obviously just an ex-copper who thought he still had a finger in a pie but was well off the mark.

 

Totally mental to think he's complained about a planning application and then days later is shot, how obvious would that be?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

On 29/05/2018 at 23:16, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Good article on the BBC site, mentions a possible Loyalist paramilitary connection.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_doorstep_murder_alistair_wilson

Incredibly peculiar. Unless I’m missing it, has his wife actually spoken about what was said between them when he came upstairs? Like, he must have passed on what the guy at the door said to him.

 

Difficult not to feel that the police have made extraordinarily hard work of this

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

53 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

 

Aye total rubbish.  I was told by an ex-copper they knew the background and were close to making an arrest, obviously just an ex-copper who thought he still had a finger in a pie but was well off the mark.

 

Totally mental to think he's complained about a planning application and then days later is shot, how obvious would that be?

I just can’t see how the planning application would be the answer to this. Imagine taking 20 years to solve a case which comes down to decking in a hotel beer garden over the road. Seriously