Would you support an independent review into the SFA/SPL's handling of Rangers' use of EBTs and it's consequences?

[Gizmo]

If a team using a scheme which the status, even then, was known to be iffy - hence the side letters - to gain a massive advantage over the rest of us for years doesn't bother you, I have to ask whether even the concept of "sport" matters to you. Might as well watch WWE...
 

[OTT]

Why is there a 'don't care' option, surely if you don't care theres no point voting? Skews the results a bit on an otherwise black or white issue.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Can't see what's wrong with BB mentioning that Celtic and numerous English clubs used the EBT scheme. They did.

 

Your obsession with painting him out as a sympathiser is becoming a bit wearing. He's stated on numerous occasions that half his family are Rangers fans. It's not exactly a crime.

I don't have to paint him as some kind of sympathiser. He's doing just fine on his own.

You could put me on ignore if I'm becoming a bit wearing though. Also you won't have to defend him ever again.

Not sure what having Newco fans as family has to do with anything he posts on this matter. You either agree they cheated Hearts and all other teams or you don't.

[NANOJAMBO]

I don't have to paint him as some kind of sympathiser. He's doing just fine on his own.

You could put me on ignore if I'm becoming a bit wearing though. Also you won't have to defend him ever again.

Not sure what having Newco fans as family has to do with anything he posts on this matter. You either agree they cheated Hearts and all other teams or you don't.

 

I don't have to paint him as some kind of sympathiser. He's doing just fine on his own.

You could put me on ignore if I'm becoming a bit wearing though. Also you won't have to defend him ever again.

Not sure what having Newco fans as family has to do with anything he posts on this matter. You either agree they cheated Hearts and all other teams or you don't.

.

[NANOJAMBO]

Im all for a review, but theres a wee bit of me asking. Was the EBT scheme against the rules when Rangers first implemented it? Did they just find a loophole and exploit it?

Imagine we were subject to review for 2006 cup cause Romanov was dodgey with some cash handling. Or am i looking at this far too simplistically??

EBTs are not illegal. There's no reason a company can't  use loans to incentivise their employees using this scheme but when you use EBTs in place of their paid salary so the company and the employee dodges tax & NIC then you're gonna have  a problem.

 

To put things into context : Barry Ferguson was on ?9k per week on his return from Blackburn and he get ?2.5 MILLION in an EBT in the same season. That was nearly 10 years after HMFC was paying Stephan Adam ?8k per week . So by that analogy , Deidco was paying their best players the same that Hearts were paying 10 years earlier. But why have an enquiry ? 

 

And no one noticed anything ?

 

HMFC were investigated by HMRC and were hammered for it. 

[Big Slim Stylee]

I don't have to paint him as some kind of sympathiser. He's doing just fine on his own.

You could put me on ignore if I'm becoming a bit wearing though. Also you won't have to defend him ever again.

Not sure what having Newco fans as family has to do with anything he posts on this matter. You either agree they cheated Hearts and all other teams or you don't.

 

You forgot the "don't care" option. I don't care about pursuing Rangers. I'd hazard a guess that I'm in the majority of fans outside of forum world.  

[ToadKiller Dog]

Why is there a 'don't care' option, surely if you don't care theres no point voting? Skews the results a bit on an otherwise black or white issue.

Think because there was an argument put forward by some posters in the debate thread that possibly the majority of fans were not interested and only interested in their own clubs fortunes.

[Sydney]

If I thought it would result in anything beneficial, then I would say "yes, go for it", but I don't think anything good would some from it, and as such I think it would be a monumental waste of time and money.  

[Mr Benn]

The whole thing stinks of a cover up so I would like a review. It has to be independent though. As far as possibly damaging the Scottish game is concerned, I'm not sure how much further damage could be caused. A national team that hasn't qualified for a major tournament since 1998, a top League that has only been won by two clubs since 1985 (something the powers that be and the media seem content with) and now it is something of a major success if teams that qualify for Europe can scrape their way past the qualifying rounds.  

[newbie]

I don't care about pursuing Rangers. I'd hazard a guess that I'm in the majority of fans outside of forum world.  

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of fans outside 'forum world' don't know the facts, because the only information they get is Level 5 inspired propaganda faithfully reproduced by our embarrassing media.

 

Every single journalist and editor in this country knows the full facts about the most prolific and longest lasting case of cheating ever to hit Scottish sport, yet they remain mute. Every last one of them also knows that the club currently playing out of Ibrox isn't legally the same club as the one formed in 1872. We know they know this because every single one of them told us so, in unison, back in 2012, but even if they suffer from selective amnesia, this fact was established in recent court cases.

 

However, almost as bad as journalists lack of balls is the attitude of some Hearts fans who couldn't give a flying fork about the Rangers saga, they just want to carry on supporting Hearts in peace. What part of Rangers cheated Hearts out of league positions, many thousands of pounds and umpteen cup ties do these folk fail to understand?

 

And let's not forget that the football authorities not only turned a blind eye to the cheating going on at Ibrox, they actively assisted in that cheating! The very people charged with looking after the integrity and governance of the game are themselves corrupt. No wonder they want to discourage us from having an independent inquiry or Judicial Review - they don't want the truth seeing the light of day. Incidentally, any independent review has to be truly independent of the football authorities, both in the terms of reference and the period covered, otherwise we'll just end up with another LNS-style farce where the outcome was predetermined. 

[The Treasurer]

For me, if an independent review takes place, then it's not specifically to punish sevco

Although they deserve to receive some sort of sanctions for the blatant cheating they've been getting away with for years.

It would expose the corrupt way the game in this country is run to the benefit of two clubs at the expense of all the others.

It's this reason that the authorities want us all to "move on" 

They know there are a lot of cans of worms that could be opened if there was a truly independent investigation, which is the last thing they want

[Dia Liom]

Of course, a no brainer. The whole thing is a disgrace.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

If Celtic or The Rangers (or even hibs for that matter) were cheating now, how would we know?  Who would stop them?  

 

Unless there is a full independent review to flush out the rats I don't see how anyone can have any confidence that cheating is not taking place now or would not take place in the future.

[Boris]

For me, if an independent review takes place, then it's not specifically to punish sevco

Although they deserve to receive some sort of sanctions for the blatant cheating they've been getting away with for years.

It would expose the corrupt way the game in this country is run to the benefit of two clubs at the expense of all the others.

It's this reason that the authorities want us all to "move on" 

They know there are a lot of cans of worms that could be opened if there was a truly independent investigation, which is the last thing they want

 

Agreed.  A review isn't about Rangers and EBT's, it's about how the SFA allowed them to get away with it, primarily the misregistration of players due to no side letters regarding their EBT monies.

 

Whether EBT's were legal or not, they were part of the players' remuniration and as such needed to be registered.

 

Surely Campbell Ogilvie would have known that?

[@VladMagic]

I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and if there is an investigation into Rangers use of EBT's a load more will come out in the wash so to speak.

 

Its clear certain people and bodies are desperate to avoid any such investigation because they are terrified at what will be discovered outwith the EBT issue. There is potentially widespread corruption to be uncovered and there are squeaky bums all over the place right now.

 

I would be delighted if an independent review was set up to unearth exactly what has gone on and who was responsible for it. 

[Thomaso]

The only way we would get full agreement is if it was Celtic who cheated. Like it or not a few people choose to support Hearts because they think we're a prodding club.

 

 

A "prodding" Club!!!

 

 

[moonraker]

Wilfredo Pareto would be impressed with these figures.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Agreed. A review isn't about Rangers and EBT's, it's about how the SFA allowed them to get away with it, primarily the misregistration of players due to no side letters regarding their EBT monies.

 

Whether EBT's were legal or not, they were part of the players' remuniration and as such needed to be registered.

 

Surely Campbell Ogilvie would have known that?

100% agreement from me too. It's the way the debacle was handled that needs thoroughly looked at. Too many inconsistencies and illogical steps have been followed to date to the point that there's no chance of 'moving on' without some sort of enquiry.

 

As far as Rangers use of EBT'S is concerned the book is closed. Rangers acted unlawfully in not deducting payroll taxes from their payments into these and came within a smidgen of being done on more serious charges for their obstructions and concealing of the facts from HMRC.

[loveofthegame]

General apathy from me on the whole thing to be honest. Couldn't care less.

[loveofthegame]

General apathy from me on the whole thing to be honest. Couldn't care less.

[redjambo]

General apathy from me on the whole thing to be honest. Couldn't care less.

 

You couldn't care less so much that you posted the same thing twice?

[alwaysthereinspirit]

You couldn't care less so much that you posted the same thing twice?

He really really doesn't care.

[loveofthegame]

You couldn't care less so much that you posted the same thing twice?

 

Blame the internet at work for that one.... 

[Hammys goal celebrations]

I voted yes to a review but I don't hold out much hope of it ever being allowed to happen, for sixty odd years now I have felt cheated by those in charge of our game, that won't stop me being a Hearts fan but it has always dismayed me that apart from Jambos and perhaps Dons fans there has always been a deafening silence about the corruption in our game and the bias shown by the media.

[VALDOS]

What do you think Hearts have to hide?

he must know the things you dont know. I would change to about 95% certain.

[OTT]

See for me, I don't just see it as a way to punish the huns for the cheating but also a means to an end to get Doncaster, Regan and the rest of those spineless weasels out of office. No person in the SFA is capable of actually doing their job competently (Except MAYBE the tea lady). They all need to go, and if this is the way it happens then great.

[hurdie]

he must know the things you dont know. I would change to about 95% certain.

He must 'think' he knows things, I'ii stick with 100%, thanks all the same.

[reaths17]

Agreed.  A review isn't about Rangers and EBT's, it's about how the SFA allowed them to get away with it, primarily the misregistration of players due to no side letters regarding their EBT monies.

 

Whether EBT's were legal or not, they were part of the players' remuniration and as such needed to be registered.

 

Surely Campbell Ogilvie would have known that?

it amounts to the same thing. Ogilvie is the link, a man who was receiving tax evading payments and also responsible for implementing the regulations/rules oldco were supposed to be abiding by. the hiding of side letters and no declaration of payments to players would be well known to Ogilvie and bain etc who were all sitting on various boards of rule administrators within the SPL/SFA. if you review those supposed to be administering the rules it has to invalidate all decisions/conclusions reached regarding oldco. you cant have the crooks dishing out the consequences of their own actions.

[Mikey1874]

Pretty decisive

 

Clear message

[Independence]

I couldn't care less to be honest .time to leave it behind mi

Yes lets give in. Let them get away with it because.....? What rubbish we should never let this die until it has bee reviewed...independently.

[Bazzas right boot]

This poll is restoring my faith!

[Charlie-Brown]

The real scandal is that Rangers players had undeclared secret hidden 2nd contracts / ebt side letters which are clearly against the rules of football, the SFA & the SPL but also Rangers officials were also SFA & SPL officials and duty bound to 1) uphold the rules 2) a duty to those other member clubs they would act in utmost good faith.

They are bang to rights yet the football authorities dont seem to want to investigate their own officials shafting everyone and concealing massive rule breaking for a decade.

[Boab]

A question.

 

If Hearts followed Aberdeen and Hibs and said they were not in support of a review, what action would the fans propose ?

 

This question is open to Aberdeen and Hibs fans obviously.

 

Hibs seem to be acting against the wishes of fans.......if social media is a good barometer of course !

 

I ask this question in view of the huge % for in the above poll.

[Riccarton3]

A question.

 

If Hearts followed Aberdeen and Hibs and said they were not in support of a review, what action would the fans propose ?

 

This question is open to Aberdeen and Hibs fans obviously.

 

Hibs seem to be acting against the wishes of fans.......if social media is a good barometer of course !

 

I ask this question in view of the huge % for in the above poll.

Is it not enough that the SPFL board has asked the SFA to be involved in a review? Or, I should say, to sanction one.

[niblick1874]

I've had a rethink.

 

let sleeping dogs lie.

 

Who knows where this could end up.

 

What if it turns out that there were things going on that end up with some in front of a judge.

 

  

[kila]

A question.

 

If Hearts followed Aberdeen and Hibs and said they were not in support of a review, what action would the fans propose ?

 

This question is open to Aberdeen and Hibs fans obviously.

 

Hibs seem to be acting against the wishes of fans.......if social media is a good barometer of course !

 

I ask this question in view of the huge % for in the above poll.

 

I think there'd be some disgust if the club came out in favour of sweeping under the carpet and moving on

 

I'd be surprised though, as I'd expect Budge to have been one of the SPFL board members in favour of an independent review. She's mentioned in the past how she'd change things in Scottish football, some controversial (too many teams for a country of 5.3 million), so I don't expect her to be in favour of the status quo.

[Riccarton3]

It's a case of self preservation at the SFA. Newco can't be punished and will continue without little disruption but the axe hovers over folks' jobs at Hampden with any independent review.

[Mikey1874]

The real scandal is that Rangers players had undeclared secret hidden 2nd contracts / ebt side letters which are clearly against the rules of football, the SFA & the SPL but also Rangers officials were also SFA & SPL officials and duty bound to 1) uphold the rules 2) a duty to those other member clubs they would act in utmost good faith.

They are bang to rights yet the football authorities dont seem to want to investigate their own officials shafting everyone and concealing massive rule breaking for a decade.

Its that simple

[NANOJAMBO]

The real scandal is that Rangers players had undeclared secret hidden 2nd contracts / ebt side letters which are clearly against the rules of football, the SFA & the SPL but also Rangers officials were also SFA & SPL officials and duty bound to 1) uphold the rules 2) a duty to those other member clubs they would act in utmost good faith.

They are bang to rights yet the football authorities dont seem to want to investigate their own officials shafting everyone and concealing massive rule breaking for a decade.

And lied about it,  obstructed justice for years and then removed those side letters from their own documentation. They were only caught because  an unrelated raid on Ibrox  unearthed  one years after they denied the existence of these contracts. If it wasn't for that raid Deidco would NEVER have been caught and they might still be doing it now. All the while Smith (who quit  his SFA role as soon as this scandal became known) and Ogilvie kept their mouths shut. Ogilvie even lied to the SFA about his knowledge in setting up the EBT schemes. This has now moved beyond use of EBTs and is a critical issue of governance - either the SFA were totally incompetent or they were complicit. Either way Reagan knows he is toast if this enquiry goes ahead as he hasn't got a defence in either case. 

[reaths17]

Is it not enough that the SPFL board has asked the SFA to be involved in a review? Or, I should say, to sanction one.

apart from adding a letter SPFL are much the same people (doncaster) all their doing is avoiding involvement and shuffling it off to the SFA, they are all culpable. the SPFL and the SFA should be investigated.

 

It's a case of self preservation at the SFA. Newco can't be punished and will continue without little disruption but the axe hovers over folks' jobs at Hampden with any independent review.

if it's found that there were people on the boards/quangos/departments who made the decisions to sweep this away/5 way agreement/nimmo-smith carve up and were also involved with oldco and new about the deliberate tax avoidance then surely that makes these arrangements illegal and therefore oldco would be back in the firing line.

[i wish jj was my dad]

For me, if an independent review takes place, then it's not specifically to punish sevco

Although they deserve to receive some sort of sanctions for the blatant cheating they've been getting away with for years.

It would expose the corrupt way the game in this country is run to the benefit of two clubs at the expense of all the others.

It's this reason that the authorities want us all to "move on" 

They know there are a lot of cans of worms that could be opened if there was a truly independent investigation, which is the last thing they want

This.  That Rangers cheated is beyond doubt.  I'm almost beyond caring about that.

 

What bothers me is how and why the authorities are complicit in covering it up. I hope and actually think Celtic might come to regret calling for an independent enquiry because if and when an independent reviewer starts looking under stones I have no doubt they will find plenty of skullduggery at work to give Celtic an unfair advantage.

[BRAVEHEART1874]

why can't we see the 30 that said no i could do with a f laugh  i got brownbear, triggers broom, brycee boy but didn't know we had 30

[Footballfirst]

I think there'd be some disgust if the club came out in favour of sweeping under the carpet and moving on

 

I'd be surprised though, as I'd expect Budge to have been one of the SPFL board members in favour of an independent review. She's mentioned in the past how she'd change things in Scottish football, some controversial (too many teams for a country of 5.3 million), so I don't expect her to be in favour of the status quo.

 

PMGB seems to think that she will not come out and support a review.

 

[CJGJ]

PMGB seems to think that she will not come out and support a review.

 

Who cares what this charlatan posts.. he's a cheat, a liar and yet some (and god knows why) still want to quote him as if he is a fountain of truth

[BertieBollocks]

Who cares what this charlatan posts.. he's a cheat, a liar and yet some (and god knows why) still want to quote him as if he is a fountain of truth

wha did he cheat and lie about just out of interest ?

[Riccarton3]

wha did he cheat and lie about just out of interest ?

the mood will be no better after that equalizer.

[CJGJ]

the mood will be no better after that equalizer.

What a sad little comment..I hope you feel better for posting another lie but it's all you've got and that should make you think a little..

[The Real Maroonblood]

the mood will be no better after that equalizer.

Ouch!

[Justin Z]

the mood will be no better after that equalizer.

 

[jumpship]

wha did he cheat and lie about just out of interest ?

He's been caught lying on many occasions.  on twitter he use to make up story's about Celtic players and fans receiving sectarian abuse.  but when pushed on it he would just bloke people. He's a professional sh1t chucker. That's how he makes his money. winds up the knuckle draggers.