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Would you support an independent review into the SFA/SPL's handling of Rangers' use of EBTs and it's consequences?


kila

Independent review  

621 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you support an independent review into the SFA/SPL's handling of Rangers' use of EBTs and it's consequences?

    • Yes
      501
    • No
      31
    • Don't Care
      89


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What happened at Rangers has exposed the deep routed corruption in the game. Those involved as doing the level best to make it go away. Well I don't think that will happen.

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The argument on Twitter is that if you just want to let it slide and let them move on, you must just be a diet hun without a bus fare.

 

I maybe wouldn't go that far... but why the **** would you want to let the horrible scummy club get away with anything?

 

I hate that club and their fans more than ANY other. I can't wrap my head around feeling any other way than wishing them the most severe punishment.

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Bring Back Paulo Sergio

The argument on Twitter is that if you just want to let it slide and let them move on, you must just be a diet hun without a bus fare.

 

I maybe wouldn't go that far... but why the **** would you want to let the horrible scummy club get away with anything?

 

I hate that club and their fans more than ANY other. I can't wrap my head around feeling any other way than wishing them the most severe punishment.

The only way we would get full agreement is if it was Celtic who cheated. Like it or not a few people choose to support Hearts because they think we're a prodding club.

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The argument on Twitter is that if you just want to let it slide and let them move on, you must just be a diet hun without a bus fare.

 

I maybe wouldn't go that far... but why the **** would you want to let the horrible scummy club get away with anything?

 

I hate that club and their fans more than ANY other. I can't wrap my head around feeling any other way than wishing them the most severe punishment.

This is where the argument breaks down: you are saying it is all about holding Rangers to account, whereas others are saying it is all about the SFA and their role in it. Which is it?

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Im all for a review, but theres a wee bit of me asking. Was the EBT scheme against the rules when Rangers first implemented it? Did they just find a loophole and exploit it?

Imagine we were subject to review for 2006 cup cause Romanov was dodgey with some cash handling. Or am i looking at this far too simplistically??

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The only way we would get full agreement is if it was Celtic who cheated. Like it or not a few people choose to support Hearts because they think we're a prodding club.

I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

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I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

Here here. Sod all to do with religion where im from..

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Has this thread title changed, Kila ?

 

I read it earlier as a review into the use of EBTs, now it's the SFA's handling of the case.....which be argued as quite different...kinda !

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Im all for a review, but theres a wee bit of me asking. Was the EBT scheme against the rules when Rangers first implemented it? Did they just find a loophole and exploit it?

Imagine we were subject to review for 2006 cup cause Romanov was dodgey with some cash handling. Or am i looking at this far too simplistically??

The use of EBTs was not clear cut at all and was debated, with the eventual outcome being that they shouldnt have been used. Many English clubs, and Celtic on one occasion (that we know of) also used them.

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I think it should be wider than just the EBTs.

 

There should be a rank and file review of all of Scottish football processes and procedures.

 

For example, I don't believe Ann Budge should be on SFA / SPFL boards or committees.  The 5-year administration rule should be extended as a cub to bar them from holding roles.  In the event of liquidation at least 10 years and in no way should board of directors or key personnel at the time of an insolvency event be allowed on such committees.

 

The ridiculous independent panels that are allowed to hand down punishments outside the scope of the rules / articles.  Similar for the independent disciplinary committees that ignore the advice of both the CO and Head of Referees.

 

Problem is, any Heads of Terms would be 'fixed' by the football authorities so maybe to expose the whole thing is for the Celtic Resolution 12 guys and other well off supporters to push for a Judicial Review.

 

And to counter that well off Rangers supporters push for a Judicial Review of their own on any grievances they have although they probably know that it wouldn?t end well.  Well apart from being told that they are lucky sods to have been treated as lightly as they have been, outside of the rules, but under board discretion.

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BertieBollocks

The use of EBTs was not clear cut at all and was debated, with the eventual outcome being that they shouldnt have been used. Many English clubs, and Celtic on one occasion (that we know of) also used them.

your dragging this debate all over the place with whataboutery , shoudnt they have declared the ebts as renumeration but more importantly shouldnt the sfa have investigated the set especially as hmfc had all ready pointed them in that direction in 2009 , did you have an ebt bowman ?

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No, there will be no absolute conclusion that would ever be accepted. Also its wonderful that Celtic actually need a hand from the other clubs on this matter, which just isn't happening, hope they remember this. Oh and Yes, this is a Celtic/ Rangers off field battle.

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your dragging this debate all over the place with whataboutery , shoudnt they have declared the ebts as renumeration but more importantly shouldnt the sfa have investigated the set especially as hmfc had all ready pointed them in that direction in 2009 , did you have an ebt bowman ?

I simply answered the question that was asked!

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Yes , now the titles changed

 

 

It is an absolute  must

 

Just imagine if it had been Hearts or any other club.

 

Where would we / they be now  ?

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i wish jj was my dad

I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

I think you're right.Most Hearts fans have a healthy contempt for both sets of bigots

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The powers that be have stated they have no legal authority to bring further charges on Rangers. Anne and the SPFL Board had asked for a Judicial Review of the original decision making process. The SFA refused without giving any good reason. I think the Judicial Review, if it ever happens, is likely to expose a failed decision making process, easily manipulated.

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Im all for a review, but theres a wee bit of me asking. Was the EBT scheme against the rules when Rangers first implemented it? Did they just find a loophole and exploit it?

Imagine we were subject to review for 2006 cup cause Romanov was dodgey with some cash handling. Or am i looking at this far too simplistically??

It's a fair question. We had players on loan from Kaunas for extended periods who were (sort of) "off-the-books", though I have no doubt whatever info it is necessary to give to register a loaned player was legit. 

 

I would love to know about Campbell Ogilvy's role around EBTs though...He had one himself. He was at Rangers when they were doing them for players who were joining, not just staff who were leaving... If he knew about them then why was the knowledge about the financial advantage not (perhaps) shared with Hearts, or if it it was, not implemented at Hearts?  In the below link the journo goes very easy on him, probably because he is "self-efacing" and a nice guy, but what does a "football administrator" actually do? Was the Company Secretary not responsible for corporate governance at Rangers because that is exactly what a Company Secretarial role is!? How can he just blithely lay all the blame at the door of his professional advisers and get away with it? Is it not highly likely that he was the one filling in or signing the forms for these EBTs?

 

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13116622.Campbell_Ogilvie__on_his_EBT__leaving_Rangers__and_the_SFA_vision_for_Scottish_football/

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Nucky Thompson

I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

Yup. I support Hearts because I'm a Gorgie boy through and through, feck all to do with proddies and Caflicks.

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I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

I feel lonely as the 0.001%. My father is a Morton supporter if any team. He leaned towards them because he was born in Greenock. I support Hearts because we lived in Fairmilehead when I was born. I went to school in the south side of Glesga though, which is why I am no fan of the OF...Guess I'm a rebel!

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I think 99.999% of fans chose to support Hearts because their family or friends did, nothing much to do with being proddies.

 

That would make an interesting poll if you want to set it up some time.

 

I think you would surprised as some folk may have started supporting Hearts because they were students or otherwise came to live the Edinburgh, because they liked the name, because they watched us play in one game etc., with no previous family or friends connection.

 

If you do set up a poll, don't include the religious aspect though - the Hibees on here will all vote for that. :)

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I feel lonely as the 0.001%. My father is a Morton supporter if any team. He leaned towards them because he was born in Greenock. I support Hearts because we lived in Fairmilehead when I was born. I went to school in the south side of Glesga though, which is why I am no fan of the OF...Guess I'm a rebel!

You dodged a bullet by not following your dad....!!

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It's a fair question. We had players on loan from Kaunas for extended periods who were (sort of) "off-the-books", though I have no doubt whatever info it is necessary to give to register a loaned player was legit.

 

I would love to know about Campbell Ogilvy's role around EBTs though...He had one himself. He was at Rangers when they were doing them for players who were joining, not just staff who were leaving... If he knew about them then why was the knowledge about the financial advantage not (perhaps) shared with Hearts, or if it it was, not implemented at Hearts? In the below link the journo goes very easy on him, probably because he is "self-efacing" and a nice guy, but what does a "football administrator" actually do? Was the Company Secretary not responsible for corporate governance at Rangers because that is exactly what a Company Secretarial role is!? How can he just blithely lay all the blame at the door of his professional advisers and get away with it? Is it not highly likely that he was the one filling in or signing the forms for these EBTs?

 

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/13116622.Campbell_Ogilvie__on_his_EBT__leaving_Rangers__and_the_SFA_vision_for_Scottish_football/

Interesting read. Going to do a little bit more research. It seems Ogilvie was fairly innocent in all this.

However the point you make about all the "loanees" we had is exactly the street im looking at. Seems very very sketchy and a review into all that could be damning for us.

I think itd be fair to say that the rangers saga needs to come to an end. They've suffered, they technically didnt breach any rules at the time. However moving forward there should be clear and set rules laid out and adhered to.

The SFA... That just needs binned and overhauled. Id like to see every individual reviewed. Vetted by an independent board of other sports directors and a new structure put in place. Basically i hope a review would uncover the corruption going on.

 

(Aware that post seems a bit disjointed but I'm on a coach and have been for seven hours. Not sure if im quite getting it across correctly)

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Bazzas right boot

No, there will be no absolute conclusion that would ever be accepted. Also its wonderful that Celtic actually need a hand from the other clubs on this matter, which just isn't happening, hope they remember this. Oh and Yes, this is a Celtic/ Rangers off field battle.

 

 

It is, but is shouldn't be.

 

If you take a step back, it's about sporting integrity, not siding with Celtic in all the things they stand for.

 

To ignore the latest court hearing and do nothing, not even review it is imo scandalous. It's up there with Italian Bribery/Juve, Barca/ Messi tax ect, and we are choosing to ignore it despite the court ruling.

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That would make an interesting poll if you want to set it up some time.

 

I think you would surprised as some folk may have started supporting Hearts because they were students or otherwise came to live the Edinburgh, because they liked the name, because they watched us play in one game etc., with no previous family or friends connection.

 

If you do set up a poll, don't include the religious aspect though - the Hibees on here will all vote for that. :)

It would be interesting, perhaps Ill make a poll!

 

I honestly believe that the vast, vast majority follow their family, or their mates if their family arent into football. I support Hearts because my brother did (my family are west coast Rangers fans) and my daughter and son support Hearts because they had no choice!!

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You dodged a bullet by not following your dad....!!

Haha - true but at least he is not like most people in Greenock who jump on the supporters buses to Parkhead and Ibrox. Last time I was at Cappielow was the early 80s and I have to say it was mainly old duffers. Perhaps sometimes the pensioners and bampots who "cannot afford the bus fare" to Glasgow are the most genuine of fans. I'll always have more respect for someone who supports their local team than any gloryhunter...

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Interesting read. Going to do a little bit more research. It seems Ogilvie was fairly innocent in all this.

However the point you make about all the "loanees" we had is exactly the street im looking at. Seems very very sketchy and a review into all that could be damning for us.

I think itd be fair to say that the rangers saga needs to come to an end. They've suffered, they technically didnt breach any rules at the time. However moving forward there should be clear and set rules laid out and adhered to.

The SFA... That just needs binned and overhauled. Id like to see every individual reviewed. Vetted by an independent board of other sports directors and a new structure put in place. Basically i hope a review would uncover the corruption going on.

 

(Aware that post seems a bit disjointed but I'm on a coach and have been for seven hours. Not sure if im quite getting it across correctly)

I think this is a very good post. Would we all support a full, thorough and complete investigation into the Vlad era? Honestly?

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For me a review is needed to get to the bottom of what went on with the SFA and various agreements. Everyone at the top of the SPFL and SFA should be grilled and emptied if the book was not followed.

 

The rules should be applied to all clubs equally no matter what "Armageddon" may follow. If our game is to ever move forward we need people with a bit of backbone to run things properly. The influence that the likes of Lawell and Petrie have on decisions in this country is madness.

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Haha - true but at least he is not like most people in Greenock who jump on the supporters buses to Parkhead and Ibrox. Last time I was at Cappielow was the early 80s and I have to say it was mainly old duffers. Perhaps sometimes the pensioners and bampots who "cannot afford the bus fare" to Glasgow are the most genuine of fans. I'll always have more respect for someone who supports their local team than any gloryhunter...

I agree. I have loads of respect for west coast fans who follow their local team.

 

My main memory of Greenock was going there just after Christmas (Boxing Day?) years ago and drinking in the worst bar I have ever been in. Not a nice area around the ground....

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alwaysthereinspirit

The use of EBTs was not clear cut at all and was debated, with the eventual outcome being that they shouldnt have been used. Many English clubs, and Celtic on one occasion (that we know of) also used them.

"and Celtic" for ***** sake grow a pair.
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been here before

The only way we would get full agreement is if it was Celtic who cheated. Like it or not a few people choose to support Hearts because they think we're a prodding club.

You mean we're not??

 

Fxxk sake. I've been going to games since the mid 80s and the only reason I support the Hearts is so I can bowl about poking people.

 

Now I find out thats not the case.

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Interesting read. Going to do a little bit more research. It seems Ogilvie was fairly innocent in all this.

However the point you make about all the "loanees" we had is exactly the street im looking at. Seems very very sketchy and a review into all that could be damning for us.

I think itd be fair to say that the rangers saga needs to come to an end. They've suffered, they technically didnt breach any rules at the time. However moving forward there should be clear and set rules laid out and adhered to.

The SFA... That just needs binned and overhauled. Id like to see every individual reviewed. Vetted by an independent board of other sports directors and a new structure put in place. Basically i hope a review would uncover the corruption going on.

 

(Aware that post seems a bit disjointed but I'm on a coach and have been for seven hours. Not sure if im quite getting it across correctly)

Is the point not that the use of EBT meant that Rangers never declared all payments made to players and as such it breached SFA rules about player registration. So while EBT themselves weren't illegal, the players were not registered properly with the SFA. Something a few small clubs have been guilty of recently through genuine admin errors and chucked out of cup competitions?

 

I'd support a review of the Vlad era purely to find out what the hell went on! I'd love to know what crazy shit he was up to!

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Regards Vlads loanees from Kaunas I think this is what the Inland Revenue challenged us with ie players being paid in Lithuania whilst working in Scotland. We accepted a deal with HMRC basically because we didn't have the money to fight it and pay all the monies up front. I am not sure HMRC case was that strong though. Think it's quite common practice for players to be paid by their parent clubs with the loan club paying the parent club direct. Not 100% sure on this and I would guess that posters such as FF and FA would likely be clearer on this

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BRAVEHEART1874

and there we have it a landslide so far but some sevco sympathisers say they do not know anyone that wants one ;)

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Interesting read. Going to do a little bit more research. It seems Ogilvie was fairly innocent in all this.

However the point you make about all the "loanees" we had is exactly the street im looking at. Seems very very sketchy and a review into all that could be damning for us.

I think itd be fair to say that the rangers saga needs to come to an end. They've suffered, they technically didnt breach any rules at the time. However moving forward there should be clear and set rules laid out and adhered to.

The SFA... That just needs binned and overhauled. Id like to see every individual reviewed. Vetted by an independent board of other sports directors and a new structure put in place. Basically i hope a review would uncover the corruption going on.

 

(Aware that post seems a bit disjointed but I'm on a coach and have been for seven hours. Not sure if im quite getting it across correctly)

 

Did they not have side-agreements alongside the EBTs which did break rules merely by the SFA not being provided with copies nor informed that they existed? I thought the conclusion was that they technically did break rules there? However, Rangers the company which did all this is liquidated. No point in punishing Rangers 2012 for what happened >6years prior to 2012 even if Dave King was a director alongside Ogilvy...

 

Now whether the SFA should be dismissing calls for a review of the decision making process whilst having a recipient of one of these EBTs as "President" is questionable... I'm a little bit more skeptical about Ogilvy's protestation of "I knew nothing" than you appear to be...

 

As for Hearts, I doubt there is any muck to find there - Vlad may have pushed the boundaries of "fair play" with his loans policy but I doubt it was outside of any rules. Probably just a case of Income Tax perhaps being lower in Lithuania than UK, so registering players via Kaunas reduced tax, it certainly didn't avoid it, and definitely didn't evade it.

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I think this is a very good post. Would we all support a full, thorough and complete investigation into the Vlad era? Honestly?

No. The thought terrifies me. After what we've been through. Saying that, perhaps Bryan Jackson would have uncovered any truly outstanding irregularities had they been there.

 

However, back to the SFA im more interested as to why the SFA doesnt want an independent review. Whats to hide? And how did Mr.Doncaster manage to go against the grain there.

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Voted Don't Care. I'm not against an inquiry but I don't really see what it would achieve.

 

Titles lost? The dirty *******s have already celebrated them, taking them away won't change that.

 

They lose the "55" or whatever they're on? It's an embarrassing claim anyway. It's like Mayweather celebrating 55 knockouts against a bunch of handicapped kids.

 

I just don't really see what it'd achieve that's beneficial for the game going forward, unless they haven't actually put rules in place already to deal with this kind of thing going forward.

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Did they not have side-agreements alongside the EBTs which did break rules merely by the SFA not being provided with copies nor informed that they existed? I thought the conclusion was that they technically did break rules there? However, Rangers the company which did all this is liquidated. No point in punishing Rangers 2012 for what happened >6years prior to 2012 even if Dave King was a director alongside Ogilvy...

 

Now whether the SFA should be dismissing calls for a review of the decision making process whilst having a recipient of one of these EBTs as "President" is questionable... I'm a little bit more skeptical about Ogilvy's protestation of "I knew nothing" than you appear to be...

 

As for Hearts, I doubt there is any muck to find there - Vlad may have pushed the boundaries of "fair play" with his loans policy but I doubt it was outside of any rules. Probably just a case of Income Tax perhaps being lower in Lithuania than UK, so registering players via Kaunas reduced tax, it certainly didn't avoid it, and definitely didn't evade it.

Yeah fair one. As I alluded to I'm doing all this reading and researching on my mobile on the most horrendous journey of my life so perhaps im skimming too much and paraphrasing.

But i agree, no point pursuing oldco, but id defo like to see the SFA looked into

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It should be done, that goes without question.

 

However when it comes to Scottish Football, there is no such thing as "independent" as the last inquest into rangers found out, such as with holding vital documents and so on.

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Is the point not that the use of EBT meant that Rangers never declared all payments made to players and as such it breached SFA rules about player registration. So while EBT themselves weren't illegal, the players were not registered properly with the SFA. Something a few small clubs have been guilty of recently through genuine admin errors and chucked out of cup competitions?

 

I'd support a review of the Vlad era purely to find out what the hell went on! I'd love to know what crazy shit he was up to!

All that.

 

Rangers registered players and paid them extra cash off the books. That's against the rules.

 

We were clearly manipulating the loan rules but weren't, unless someone knows otherwise, Beaumont any rules. The tax authorities pulled us up for it and it was a major tipping point when we had to pay the bill. Or were supposed to anyway.

 

I don't think a review will find an outcome that wouldn't cause more uproar but there shouild still be one imo

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It is, but is shouldn't be.

 

If you take a step back, it's about sporting integrity, not siding with Celtic in all the things they stand for.

 

To ignore the latest court hearing and do nothing, not even review it is imo scandalous. It's up there with Italian Bribery/Juve, Barca/ Messi tax ect, and we are choosing to ignore it despite the court ruling.

So what do you want to review, Tosh? There seems to be conflicting opinions.

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