Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Victorian]

Thatcher famously was a real thorn in the side of the EU.    Won concessions in the way of the rebate and was a tough negotiator.     I doubt that the EU as an institution has forgotten or would be tolerant of a repeat performance.     To that end it may have been a severe handicap to negotiations for them to conducted by Thatcher Mk2.    Thatcher Lite.    Shan Maggie.

 

It's a bit not liking Elvis and being forced to sit through a full set by the worst holiday camp cabaret Elvis Impersonator in the world.

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

She's bonkers!  Proper bunker mentality!

 

Who Sourbitch?

[Thunderstruck]

16 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Er, if you want to maintain the pretence of having facts to support your argument, don't swipe at another poster based on where they come from, don't make up stuff about what another poster has posted, and above all else don't go full conspiracy theorist.  You never go full conspiracy theorist.  

 

If you want to open a thread to discuss your feelings about TTIP and stuff like that you go right ahead, and I might even contribute.  On this thread I'm going to do my best to stick to Brexit and its associated negotiations.

 

Er, if you want to accuse another poster of being a ‘conspiracy theorist’, try not to make yourself look foolish by neglecting to carry out even a cursory bit of research of your own. 

 

Such research might have shown the serious concerns raised by, for example and in your own country, the Irish Senate, Irish opposition parties, Irish Farmers and Irish Trades Unions. What would they know, eh? Maybe they also are conspiracy theorists. 

 

The bottom line is that, on both sides of the Atlantic, there are serious concerns about this “mixed” (extending beyond simply Trade) Agreement. To trivialise these concerns by cheap shots is beneath you. 

 

In fact, I’m not sure if you confirmed Ireland’s current position on CETA. Has it moved beyond Provisional Adoption or has the considerable internal opposition (surely they can’t all be conspiracy theorists) stymied any progress?

 

This is about Brexit which, as I’m sure you know, was about ‘taking back control’. Hopefully, Brexit will be a catalyst for changing the powers of the EU’s unelected elite; the process around CETA has hardly exemplified openness and honesty. 

 

If Brexit really is your concern, one might have thought that getting a transitional deal in place might be a priority if Veradkar had any concern for Irish business and agriculture. Constructive dialogue might, therefore, have been more useful that his Davos comments about having an Army (whose army?) on the Border. I’m sure you have been equally scathing of his antics. 

 

As for Ireland as a Tax Haven, I think I have every right to call out anyone who wishes to criticise the UK for greed and stupidity while living in a country enriched by welcoming the tax-avoiding activities of the likes of Apple and Microsoft. These and similar corporations have managed to “offshore” untaxed reserves of $1trillion over the 4 years to 2018; that’s the basis for a helluva lot of tax. 

 

And, yes, I know, it’s all Britain’s fault - we had a referendum. 

 

 

[Boris]

55 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Who Sourbitch?

 

If that's how you refer to May, then yes.

[Ulysses]

50 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

[....]

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

RTÉ News suggested last night that the PM had constructive discussions with the EU.  But this morning the tone is back to being a bit more negative. I wonder what's actually going on?

[Cade]

PM says "Talks are going fine"

 

Junker says 

"Brexit is deconstruction, it is not construction.

Brexit is the past, it is not the future.

We are trying to deliver our best efforts in order to have this Brexit being organised in a proper, civilised, well-thought-out way.

But we are not there, because in the British parliament there is, every time they are voting, a majority against something, there is never a majority in favour of something.

If a no-deal would happen – and I can’t exclude this – this would have terrible economic and social consequences, both in Britain and on the continent, and so my efforts orient in a way that the worst can be avoided.

But I am not very optimistic when it comes to this issue."

[Victorian]

Just now, Ulysses said:

RTÉ News suggested last night that the PM had constructive discussions with the EU.  But this morning the tone is back to being a bit more negative. I wonder what's actually going on?

 

The government spin machine was trying to portray it as tangible progress about to be revealed.     Further meeting with JCJ in a week.     Probably just a teaser to buy another week in the big run-down-the-clock game.

[Cade]

Barnier says

"The process is in an impasse at the moment.

We are waiting for Theresa May to tell us how she sees things and what she wants.

But we are not going to reopen negotiations on the Withdrawal Treaty, we will not change the content of the Irish protocol which preserves peace in Ireland and the integrity of the single market.

It is rather for the UK, as guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, to respect the integrity of our single market and to bring us solutions."

[Toggie88]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Barnier says

"The process is in an impasse at the moment.

We are waiting for Theresa May to tell us how she sees things and what she wants.

But we are not going to reopen negotiations on the Withdrawal Treaty, we will not change the content of the Irish protocol which preserves peace in Ireland and the integrity of the single market.

It is rather for the UK, as guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, to respect the integrity of our single market and to bring us solutions."

 

...so the exact same situation as before Christmas. 

 

It's quite funny the view from the US - they see Trump as a complete loon, political liability etc etc but the mantra is 'at least it's not as bad as Brexit'. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

If that's how you refer to May, then yes.

 

Not sure the best epithet for May just yet, so no not her.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Seymour M Hersh

[Cade]

As many as 25 ministers are ready to vote for an extension of Article 50 unless May takes No Deal off the table.

Challenging May to sack them all and do another cabinet reshuffle.

 

Even then, the EU 27 may not even agree to an extension of Article 50 if it's only going to give  Westminster more time to rip itself to pieces instead of actually finding solutions to the Brexit issues.

 

 

[Victorian]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

As many as 25 ministers are ready to vote for an extension of Article 50 unless May takes No Deal off the table.

Challenging May to sack them all and do another cabinet reshuffle.

 

Even then, the EU 27 may not even agree to an extension of Article 50 if it's only going to give  Westminster more time to rip itself to pieces instead of actually finding solutions to the Brexit issues.

 

 

 

There's the option to revoke altogether if need be.   That is unilateral.     It isn't all that clear regarding whether it can be re-invoked.      

[Ibrahim Tall]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533

 

So, no Turkey or Japan deals. Thought it was all meant to be easy and they were virtually lining up?

 

”But so far the Department of International Trade has only been able to finalise "continuity agreements" with seven of the 69 countries and regions with which the EU has trade deals.

These include Switzerland, Chile, the Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa, Israel and the Palestinian Authority.”

 

So... 10%. Its nice to see we’ve focussed on the priorities like the Faroes and Palestine. I’m sure the country was sick with worry at the thought of tariffs on aid shipments to Palestine..

[RobboM]

Matthew Parris writing in The Times on Friday in an article entitled "Theresa May s the Death Star of British Politics". Jeez this is grim!

 

"Time and again I’ve protested that she may not be the answer but she didn’t create this mess: she’s just an unimaginative, unremarkable, perhaps wooden but dogged politician, overly cautious and rather shy. Time and again my informants — MPs, former MPs, civil servants, special advisers — tell me, eyes flashing, that I’ve got it wrong and the public have it wrong, and she’s so much worse than that. She’s not normal. She’s extraordinary. Extraordinarily uncommunicative; extraordinarily rude in the way she blanks people, ideas and arguments. To my surprise there is no difference between the pictures of her that Remainers and Brexiteers paint.

Theresa May, they tell me (in a couple of cases actually shouting) is the Death Star of modern British politics. She’s the theory of anti-matter, made flesh. She’s a political black hole because nothing, not even light, can escape. Ideas, beliefs, suggestions, objections, inquiries, proposals, projects, loyalties, affections, trust, whole careers, real men and women, are sucked into the awful void that is Downing Street — and nothing ever comes out: no answers, only a blank so blank that it screams. Reputations (they lament) are staked on her, and lost. Warnings are delivered to her, and ignored. Plans are run by her, unacknowledged. Messages are sent to her, unanswered. She has become the unperson of Downing Street: the living embodiment of the closed door."

What strikes me too is that so many of the criticisms can be levelled at Jeremy Corbyn too and I voted for him! He's lacked leadership, been posted missing and left the debate open to the wings of the Tory party. Instead of Rees Mogg on the telly every day it should be Corbyn, hammering the government's sheer incompetence and putting forward an alternative Brexit which he should promise to put before the electorate.

Bunch of fannys the lot of them.

[Unknown user]

On 21/02/2019 at 13:51, Ulysses said:

RTÉ News suggested last night that the PM had constructive discussions with the EU.  But this morning the tone is back to being a bit more negative. I wonder what's actually going on?

Nothing!

The EU don't want to and don't need to budge, it's been obvious since day one.

May's trying, making noises, but nothing substantial will change from their side. 

[Unknown user]

On 21/02/2019 at 19:12, Cade said:

As many as 25 ministers are ready to vote for an extension of Article 50 unless May takes No Deal off the table.

Challenging May to sack them all and do another cabinet reshuffle.

 

Even then, the EU 27 may not even agree to an extension of Article 50 if it's only going to give  Westminster more time to rip itself to pieces instead of actually finding solutions to the Brexit issues.

 

 

 

They will, there's no point in not doing it when we can effectively do it without their permission by withdrawing article 50 and reinstating it again

[Mikey1874]

Nothing next week

 

 

[scott herbertson]

11 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Nothing next week

 

 

 

 

It's like a recurrent nightmare, keep waking up and thinking, "Oh no, it's going to happen again tomorrow"

[RobboM]

17 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

It's like a recurrent nightmare, keep waking up and thinking, "Oh no, it's going to happen again tomorrow"

Now is the time for Corbyn to submit a Vote of No confidence

[scott herbertson]

1 minute ago, RobboM said:

Now is the time for Corbyn to submit a Vote of No confidence

 

 

Unfortunately he seems to be mesmerised by a method of working whohich reminds me of the SWP at UNI in the 1970s. He has a plan but he's not saying what- it's a complete misjudgement of what the people will actually respect. If he would simply be open and honest he would probably carry a great number of people with him, instead of all this 'following conference's decisions' nonsense.

[Mikey1874]

23 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

 

Unfortunately he seems to be mesmerised by a method of working whohich reminds me of the SWP at UNI in the 1970s. He has a plan but he's not saying what- it's a complete misjudgement of what the people will actually respect. If he would simply be open and honest he would probably carry a great number of people with him, instead of all this 'following conference's decisions' nonsense.

 

So in practical terms Corbyn can deliver a deal?

[Cade]

Doesn't matter if Corbyn takes over tomorrow.

 

The EU say a deal has been done.

They will not renegotiate it.

 

All Corbyn could do would be to either get the deal through parliament or withdraw article 50. Extending it won't do anything as the EU aren't going to renegotiate a done deal.

 

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

So in practical terms Corbyn can deliver a deal?

 

Where did i say that?

 

I think he has no intention of doing that in the present administration.

[Mikey1874]

31 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

Where did i say that?

 

I think he has no intention of doing that in the present administration.

 

You're putting the onus on Corbyn.

 

Suppose you just want to stay in EU and think Corbyn can make that happen. 

[The Mighty Thor]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Nothing next week

 

 

It's remarkable that this farce is being allowed to continue. She's got nothing from two weeks of 'negotiations' and she'll have the same in two weeks time. Nothing.

 

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Doesn't matter if Corbyn takes over tomorrow.

 

The EU say a deal has been done.

They will not renegotiate it.

 

All Corbyn could do would be to either get the deal through parliament or withdraw article 50. Extending it won't do anything as the EU aren't going to renegotiate a done deal.

 

 

This is what amazes me. The EU and the UK negotiators agreed a transition deal however any deal had to be sanctioned by the the UK Parliament. It wasn’t and in my way of thinking the deal was never really a deal at all. As the two main party’s, the EU and the UK had to agree the deal and they didn’t. 

 

[RobboM]

1 hour ago, Cade said:

Doesn't matter if Corbyn takes over tomorrow.

 

The EU say a deal has been done.

They will not renegotiate it.

 

All Corbyn could do would be to either get the deal through parliament or withdraw article 50. Extending it won't do anything as the EU aren't going to renegotiate a done deal.

 

 

The deal that has been done is the deal that meets the red lines that May set before the negotiations started. If you change those red lines then a different deal is possible

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The entire country should be on the streets about this. She’s playing a ridiculous game of brinksmanship.

[Don Dan]

1 hour ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

The entire country should be on the streets about this. She’s playing a ridiculous game of brinksmanship.

 

Happens a lot when there’s negotiations. 

[Cade]

There ARE no negotiations FFS

 

The deal with the EU has been made.

It's a done deal.

It's not the EU's fault if Maggie May forgot to get Parliament's approval for the deal before she signed it with the EU.

 

 

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Happens a lot when there’s negotiations. 

Yeah but we're talking about Brexit, there's no negotiations, the deal is the deal and the EU aren't going to change it.

[Don Dan]

15 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Yeah but we're talking about Brexit, there's no negotiations, the deal is the deal and the EU aren't going to change it.

 

So they say. 

[Don Dan]

20 minutes ago, Cade said:

There ARE no negotiations FFS

 

The deal with the EU has been made.

It's a done deal.

It's not the EU's fault if Maggie May forgot to get Parliament's approval for the deal before she signed it with the EU.

 

 

 

Its not a done deal. Have the UK Parliament agreed the deal? Answers on a post card please. 

[Unknown user]

3 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

So they say. 

 

And sometimes they speak the truth!

 

The EU has to send the message out to it's members that leaving in a huff won't get you a good deal, that they're strong, and that they'll always put their interests before those of a nation who doesn't want to play. They're not negotiating, they don't need to.

 

The brinkmanship is with our parliament in a desperate attempt to get her deal passed.

 

I've said before that we'll still be in the EU on 30th March and I stand by it.

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

 

And sometimes they speak the truth!

 

The EU has to send the message out to it's members that leaving in a huff won't get you a good deal, that they're strong, and that they'll always put their interests before those of a nation who doesn't want to play. They're not negotiating, they don't need to.

 

The brinkmanship is with our parliament in a desperate attempt to get her deal passed.

 

I've said before that we'll still be in the EU on 30th March and I stand by it.

 

I hope your right. 

The EU have history of last minute deals. 

My hope and I think it will happen is a second referendum and Remain wins which I’m sure it will.

 

[Captain Sausage]

There is a 0% chance we are leaving on 29th March. 

 

It speaks volumes for how ineffective Corbyn is when arguably the worst prime minister in British politics is going almost unchallenged. 

[scott herbertson]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You're putting the onus on Corbyn.

 

Suppose you just want to stay in EU and think Corbyn can make that happen. 

 

 

I think you're reading things into my post that aren't there.

 

I was giving my view (a poor one) of Corbyn. I would like to have seen a left wing party in Britain with clear policies. I think Corbyn has been a huge disappointment in that respect. I have no faith in him to deliver a  clear strategy with regard to the EU.

 

I do want to stay in the EU and voted for that , but not for Labour.

 

I'm not putting any onus on Corbyn , just saying he has shown no leadership  to the party. 

[scott herbertson]

4 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

I hope your right. 

The EU have history of last minute deals. 

My hope and I think it will happen is a second referendum and Remain wins which I’m sure it will.

 

 

I think you are underestimate how stubborn people will be if parliament, in their terms, 'betrays' them. In my view if there was another referendum with remain as an option it might be the same result as last time

[Don Dan]

6 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

There is a 0% chance we are leaving on 29th March. 

 

It speaks volumes for how ineffective Corbyn is when arguably the worst prime minister in British politics is going almost unchallenged. 

 

My view of Corbyn is he’ll never be PM. Not withstanding that he is anti EU and that maybe why he’s ineffective on the EU. 

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

My view of Corbyn is he’ll never be PM.

Not as long as he has a hole in his arse.

[Ulysses]

26 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

The EU have history of last minute deals.

 

 

 

Why do people keep clinging to this fantasy about the EU and last-minute deals?  The EU has shown a huge degree of flexibility in negotiations - but only for members, for insiders.  The UK is no longer an insider.  Go and find examples of this "history of last-minute deals" for outsiders and post them here.  You might find one or even two instances over the decades, but that's it.

[Ulysses]

Speaking at the LAS-EU summit in Sharm El-Sheikh, Leo Varadkar has again ruled out any changes to the Withdrawal Agreement.

 

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0224/1032455-varadkar-arab-league-eu/

 

"The Withdrawal Agreement, including the Irish Protocol and the backstop, are not up for renegotiation."

 

"We’re happy to discuss with the United Kingdom assurances that they may need to give them further confident that the backstop, if ever applied, will not be permanent.  It will only apply unless and until something supersedes it."

 

So we’re happy to talk to them about mechanisms to give them that reassurance, which some of them need. However, we can’t agree to something that would contradict the legal reality or the spirit behind what is already agreed."

 

"The March 29 deadline is self-imposed, nobody in Ireland or the EU is threatening no deal. This is a situation the United Kingdom has created for itself."

 

"A backstop that includes a time limit is not a backstop at all. Nor would a unilateral exit clause work for us."

 

"The whole point of the backstop is to give us an assurance that we won’t see the emergence of a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland as a consequence of Brexit."

 

 

[Ulysses]

The Guardian is claiming that EU sources are suggesting there may be an extension of Brexit by 21 months to give the two sides time to devise a permanent trade deal, which would eliminate the need for a the temporary backstop.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/24/brexit-could-be-delayed-until-2021-eu-sources-reveal

[Don Dan]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Why do people keep clinging to this fantasy about the EU and last-minute deals?  The EU has shown a huge degree of flexibility in negotiations - but only for members, for insiders.  The UK is no longer an insider.  Go and find examples of this "history of last-minute deals" for outsiders and post them here.  You might find one or even two instances over the decades, but that's it.

 

To be honest I’ve never bothered following it over the years but from the recent reports they have in instances. I remember one where (not specifically) where there went into the wee small hours to thrash out a deal. I’m sure there are others. Put it this way if push comes to shove I’m sure that despite the collective  rhetoric  a deal will be reach. It may even be that the UK Parliament bites the bullet and accepts the Back Stop. 

 

It it suits me fine if the plug was pulled and we stayed in. I’m here in Tenerife for six weeks and booked another four weeks in September, despite the uncertainty, enjoying the freedom that being in the EU gives me. I would have bought an apartment but got cold feet at the last minute due to Brexit and the uncertainty it has created. 

[RobboM]

59 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

I think you are underestimate how stubborn people will be if parliament, in their terms, 'betrays' them. In my view if there was another referendum with remain as an option it might be the same result as last time

More and more I'm coming to the view that the second referendum is essential, not so much for the possibility of Remain, but for the Brexiteers to finally have to "own" the shithouse Brexit they have brought about. Without it the Brexit extermists will always blame someone else for the mess it has turned into.

[Mikey1874]

41 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

The Guardian is claiming that EU sources are suggesting there may be an extension of Brexit by 21 months to give the two sides time to devise a permanent trade deal, which would eliminate the need for a the temporary backstop.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/24/brexit-could-be-delayed-until-2021-eu-sources-reveal

 

No. Its an extension of the transition period. Would still leave on 29 March. Still needs Parliament agreement.

 

It's a plan put forward behind the last vote May won. 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Mikey1874

[Victorian]

8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

No. Its an extension of the transition period. Would still leave on 29 March. Still needs Parliament agreement.

 

Nope.   It's a postponement to replace the transition period.    

Edited February 24, 2019 by Victorian

[Cade]

The 21 month extension is an EU kindness to allow the UK to get it's feckin act together.

 

It's replacing the transition period.

[Victorian]

58 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Why do people keep clinging to this fantasy about the EU and last-minute deals?  The EU has shown a huge degree of flexibility in negotiations - but only for members, for insiders.  The UK is no longer an insider.  Go and find examples of this "history of last-minute deals" for outsiders and post them here.  You might find one or even two instances over the decades, but that's it.

 

A cliche for desperate leavers and lazy thinkers.      It would only have any relevance if there was a direct or similar comparible.    There isn't.    Brexit is unique therefore dogmatic beliefs such as that are irrelevant.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Victorian