Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[redjambo]

10 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Your arrogant assumption about what they were voting for sums up the remainers response to their unfortunate defeat,

 

You were the first with the assumption about why people voted, although I wouldn't be as arrogant as to call your assumption arrogant.

[annushorribilis III]

1 minute ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

 

Yes but it’s a technicality - once you suck 30m+ people into voting, you can’t just bury it and move on. It’s like having a Scottish Indy ref, yes winning and everyone going - “yeah but we were just kidding, it wasn’t actually binding.”

 

In technical terms, it was advisory. Back in the real world, was it bollocks. 

Yes , I take your point, the genie was out of the bottle as soon as people were allowed a vote.

[dobmisterdobster]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 Johnsons language and rhetoric is going to get someone seriously hurt or killed.

 

The left have been calling the Tories murderers and fascists (along with other dehumanising language) for years. But Boris saying humbug is incitement sure.

[Mikey1874]

There have been suggestions that the Conservatives were going to use their Conference to announce their Brexit plan - their plan to break the deadlock / replace the Backstop.

 

But it could also be the spark that leads to a No Confidence vote and a Unity Government. I think after losing a No Confidence vote Government has 14 days to win another or a new Government can be formed from Opposition if they can agree  

 

Time is running out so something I think has to happen next week. 

[Mikey1874]

14 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The left have been calling the Tories murderers and fascists (along with other dehumanising language) for years. But Boris saying humbug is incitement sure.

 

If you can link to the quotes in Parliament 

 

Which you can't 

[Cade]

Nigel Fromage reported to police for saying this:
"Once Brexit is done, we will take the knife to the pen-pushers in Whitehall"

 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

On 27/09/2019 at 13:57, I P Knightley said:

"Snowflake" is about the most pathetic insult that I hear nowadays; confirmed when I heard Rees-Mogg using it the other week. 

 

Using it as above (or at all) is a symbol of much that is wrong with current 'debate'. Johnson has caused offence to some people. He may or may not have meant to but any decent, civil person who discovers that something he's said would pause to take on board how his language had caused that offence and try to moderate future discussion. Johnson is neither decent nor civil so he, his cronies and his equally ignorant followers come up with a justification that the other person should not have taken offence. 

 

Obviously, there are occasions when the offence is faux and the response is to just get on with it (thinking of the supporters of various football teams, here) but when there is a murder fresh in the memory which involved use of similar rhetoric, to call those concerned about it "snowflakes" is just callous and sub-human. 

 

The inability to punctuate or use good, British grammar (over which, incidentally, we have full sovereignty) is just sub-intelligent. 

Well said. The " snowflake" insult is pathetic. 

[Victorian]

2 hours ago, Cade said:

Nigel Fromage reported to police for saying this:
"Once Brexit is done, we will take the knife to the pen-pushers in Whitehall"

 

 

 

Aside from the knife comment,   which is innocent enough because he's obviously talking about cutting red tape,   this is what Farage has been threatening for a while.     To morph from the EU warrior that he's been to some kind of bogus revolutionary against the establishment.      It will be his next gravy train.

[Footballfirst]

According to Trump, Johnson is about to announce his alternative to the backstop

 

"We are going to build a wall"

"It's going to be a great wall"

"And the E.U. is going to pay for it"

 

[ri Alban]

8 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

I'm not Francis Albert, believe it or not.

Just having a wee laugh.

[annushorribilis III]

3 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

Aside from the knife comment,   which is innocent enough because he's obviously talking about cutting red tape,   this is what Farage has been threatening for a while.     To morph from the EU warrior that he's been to some kind of bogus revolutionary against the establishment.      It will be his next gravy train.

Like when he said it's enough to make him don khaki & reach for his rifle. Aye, sure. Innocent. 

Now he's moved on from a "knife" to an axe. 

[ri Alban]

John Bercow is to be the new PM. 

 

Brilliant!

[gjcc]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

John Bercow is to be the new PM. 

 

Brilliant!

 

Where are you hearing this?

 

All I can seem to find is plans to pass legislation allowing Bercow to bypass Bowis in asking the EU for an extension. 

[ri Alban]

11 minutes ago, gjcc said:

 

Where are you hearing this?

 

All I can seem to find is plans to pass legislation allowing Bercow to bypass Bowis in asking the EU for an extension. 

He's being lined up, as he's the only one who all parties will back as temporary PM. 

 

Vote of no confidence, imminent.

Edited September 29, 2019 by ri Alban

[gjcc]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

He's being lined up, as he's the only one who all parties will back as temporary PM. 

 

Vote of no confidence, imminent.

 

Good news. One of the few tolerable “tories”. 

[ri Alban]

Just now, gjcc said:

 

Good news. One of the few tolerable “tories”. 

Ken  Clark is the other option. Swinson is raging it's no her, and may not help take out the Tories. She's a narcissistic boot.

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

He's being lined up, as he's the only one who all parties will back as temporary PM. 

 

Vote of no confidence, imminent.

The idea is that the Commons vote to empower him to ask the EU for an extension to the Article 50 deadline. Remainers are certainly being imaginative in overcoming the Leave vote.  Lessons for unionists if Scotland ever has the temerity to vote for independence?

[ri Alban]

Just now, Francis Albert said:

The idea is that the Commons vote to empower him to ask the EU for an extension to the Article 50 deadline. Remainers are certainly being imaginative in overcoming the Leave vote.  Lessons for unionists if Scotland ever has the temerity to vote for independence?

Edited September 29, 2019 by ri Alban

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Ken  Clark is the other option. Swinson is raging it's no her, and may not help take out the Tories. She's a narcissistic boot.

That she is narcissistic hardly makes her stand out in the current house of commons. What a bunch they are.

[Francis Albert]

On 28/09/2019 at 00:36, annushorribilis III said:

It's called the EU. 

A group of foreign states. At least at the current stage of the EU project. The Irish staged an uprising and civil war to be a state foreign from the UK . I respect their right to remain so.

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

You are certainly easily amused.

[Mysterion]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

That she is narcissistic hardly makes her stand out in the current house of commons. What a bunch they are.

She’s commonly known as the absentee MP. 
 

She is a local girl done good, picked up her seat first time through a lot of good feeling towards a young person wanting to make a positive change then wrecked a lot of that with her coalition voting record. If the SNP put up someone competent (Nicholson did not cover himself in glory) then she’d struggle to retain her seat. Last GE a number of Tory and Labour voters tactically voted for her.

[shaun.lawson]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

The idea is that the Commons vote to empower him to ask the EU for an extension to the Article 50 deadline. Remainers are certainly being imaginative in overcoming the Leave vote. 

 

 

Good lord.  

 

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

 Swinson is raging it's no her, and may not help take out the Tories. She's a narcissistic boot.

 

Yep. Fracking Jo Swinson is completely full of shit.

[shaun.lawson]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

That she is narcissistic hardly makes her stand out in the current house of commons. What a bunch they are.

 

At last, you've got something half right. By which I mean the apocryphal Dennis Skinner quote:

 

Skinner: "Half the members opposite are crooks!"

 

Speaker: "Please withdraw that".

 

Skinner: "OK - half the members opposite aren't crooks".

 

More generally: for months and months - in fact, years - some of us have continually reiterated the reality to you. You deny reality and instead indulge in never-ending fantasy. God knows why. I know you're a contrarian, but your posts on this have taken the biscuit.

 

Shall I spell the bleedin' obvious out to you for the 537th time?

 

1. A country cannot leave freedom of movement while remaining in the single market.

 

2. As the UK has a land border with the Republic of Ireland, this creates an immediate problem.

 

3. Northern Ireland must remain in the customs union for there not to be regulatory divergence and hence, a hard border.

 

4. "Technical solutions" to this are pie in the sky. Comparisons with Switzerland, equally so.

 

5. The consequences of a hard border in Northern Ireland will be dire. On this, you've truly surpassed yourself: apparently, you now think you know better about what's good for the people of Northern Ireland than those who grew up during The Troubles. The arrogance. The ego. The reckless irresponsibility and playing with people's lives. Jacob Rees-Mogg, eat your heart out.

 

6. The backstop is necessary in order to prevent a hard border.

 

7. The European Union is, correctly and naturally, committed to protecting its ongoing member state, the Republic of Ireland; not the member state which wants to leave, ie. us.

 

8. The EU cannot give us something which doesn't exist. This isn't Alice in Wonderland; it's real life.

 

9. No Deal means catastrophic consequences for the economy, which is why the government tried to hide the impact assessments. Medical and food shortages mean that people will die. Doctors have already been told not to refer patients to specialists; preparations for No Deal are already imperilling people's lives.

 

10. The idea that 52% of the electorate voted for something which will destroy environmental and food standards, lead the NHS to be carved up by US health insurance companies, plunge us into deep recession, kill people in the weeks and months after we leave and mean not less, but more immigration from any country we want a trade deal with (ie. India) is so ridiculous, it isn't even worth discussing. Naturally, you've gone on suggesting it did.

 

Boris Johnson and his backers are playing a game. A sick, sick game. Turn the people against Parliament; lie forever and ever about the reality (which is that Parliament has protected the people); whip up the mob, seriously endanger the safety of elected legislators and claim that No Deal, which they'll profit from enormously at everyone else's expense, is "the will of the people". It isn't. It never has been. It never will be. And no amount of sophistry, spin and bullshit - sophistry, spin and bullshit about a government which has TRIED TO BREAK THE LAW - from you will ever change that.

Edited September 29, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[SwindonJambo]

36 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Good lord.  

 

 

Yep. Fracking Jo Swinson is completely full of shit.

 

Her politics apart, Swinson just doesn't strike me as any kind of leader. Lacks gravitas and far too hysterical and screechy. I honestly have no idea who I'd vote for at the next election. The poorest choices I can ever remember. For different reasons, I can't stand any of them.

 

If Labour binned Corbyn and replaced with Cooper or Starmer and smoked out the poisonous Momentum organisation from the party, they'd stand a fighting chance of winning. Imho.

Edited September 29, 2019 by SwindonJambo

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

If Labour binned Corbyn and replaced with Cooper or Starmer and smoked out the poisonous Momentum organisation from the party, they'd stand a fighting chance of winning. Imho.

 

The eldest Miliband brother for me.

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The eldest Miliband brother for me.

This!

 

He better get his finger out.

[ri Alban]

The UK government missed a trick, letting Tam Cook go bust. With freedom of movement to and From!!!! India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cambodia, China, USA, Australia, Bangladesh, Syria, Iran, Congo, SA, Colombia, Egypt, Sudan, Israel, Mexico, Canada, NZ, Russia, Libya, Somalia, Iraq, Turkey etc...etc... They'd  have made a fortune!

[SwindonJambo]

5 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The eldest Miliband brother for me.

I agree. He would wipe the floor with the whole lot of them. But unfortunately I think that ship's sailed. He's moved on with his life. Even if he was up for it and came back, he has to deal with Momentum just as Neil Kinnock had to deal with Militant back in the 80s. It could take a while.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The eldest Miliband brother for me.

 

1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said:

I agree. He would wipe the floor with the whole lot of them. But unfortunately I think that ship's sailed. He's moved on with his life. Even if he was up for it and came back, he has to deal with Momentum just as Neil Kinnock had to deal with Militant back in the 80s. It could take a while.

 

He was interviewed last week by Sky News and was asked if he thought that it was time for him to come back.

He basically said that he's happy with what he's doing and has no intentions of giving that role up and re-enter the bear pit that is British politics.

I took that as an emphatic not a bloody chance.

 

I agree though, someone like David Miliband would imo obtain a huge landslide victory for Labour, but only if he was able to get rid of Momentum and the entire Labour front bench, thus making Labour electable.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Nice deflection from the Tories.

£13 billion for new hospitals.

£25 billion for road upgrades.

Utopia.

[jake]

10 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

At last, you've got something half right. By which I mean the apocryphal Dennis Skinner quote:

 

Skinner: "Half the members opposite are crooks!"

 

Speaker: "Please withdraw that".

 

Skinner: "OK - half the members opposite aren't crooks".

 

More generally: for months and months - in fact, years - some of us have continually reiterated the reality to you. You deny reality and instead indulge in never-ending fantasy. God knows why. I know you're a contrarian, but your posts on this have taken the biscuit.

 

Shall I spell the bleedin' obvious out to you for the 537th time?

 

1. A country cannot leave freedom of movement while remaining in the single market.

 

2. As the UK has a land border with the Republic of Ireland, this creates an immediate problem.

 

3. Northern Ireland must remain in the customs union for there not to be regulatory divergence and hence, a hard border.

 

4. "Technical solutions" to this are pie in the sky. Comparisons with Switzerland, equally so.

 

5. The consequences of a hard border in Northern Ireland will be dire. On this, you've truly surpassed yourself: apparently, you now think you know better about what's good for the people of Northern Ireland than those who grew up during The Troubles. The arrogance. The ego. The reckless irresponsibility and playing with people's lives. Jacob Rees-Mogg, eat your heart out.

 

6. The backstop is necessary in order to prevent a hard border.

 

7. The European Union is, correctly and naturally, committed to protecting its ongoing member state, the Republic of Ireland; not the member state which wants to leave, ie. us.

 

8. The EU cannot give us something which doesn't exist. This isn't Alice in Wonderland; it's real life.

 

9. No Deal means catastrophic consequences for the economy, which is why the government tried to hide the impact assessments. Medical and food shortages mean that people will die. Doctors have already been told not to refer patients to specialists; preparations for No Deal are already imperilling people's lives.

 

10. The idea that 52% of the electorate voted for something which will destroy environmental and food standards, lead the NHS to be carved up by US health insurance companies, plunge us into deep recession, kill people in the weeks and months after we leave and mean not less, but more immigration from any country we want a trade deal with (ie. India) is so ridiculous, it isn't even worth discussing. Naturally, you've gone on suggesting it did.

 

Boris Johnson and his backers are playing a game. A sick, sick game. Turn the people against Parliament; lie forever and ever about the reality (which is that Parliament has protected the people); whip up the mob, seriously endanger the safety of elected legislators and claim that No Deal, which they'll profit from enormously at everyone else's expense, is "the will of the people". It isn't. It never has been. It never will be. And no amount of sophistry, spin and bullshit - sophistry, spin and bullshit about a government which has TRIED TO BREAK THE LAW - from you will ever change that.

On point 10.

So the EUs relentless drive towards TTIP mark 2 wont have American Health insurance companies carving up the NHS.

What basis do you have for assuming environmental and food standards will be destroyed?

And what measures have any first world countries agreed on that address the environment?

 

The idea that the UK cannot feed ourselves or source 99% of our medical supplies is scaremongering  on steroids.

 

Also the original point FA made has merit.

Do you think that the same scaremongering hasn't happened regarding Scottish independence?

And wont be ramped up if we vote for it?

 

Also your personal attacks on FA regarding ego etc.

Pish patter .

[annushorribilis III]

16 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

A group of foreign states. At least at the current stage of the EU project. The Irish staged an uprising and civil war to be a state foreign from the UK . I respect their right to remain so.

Whatever. 

"I respect their right to remain so".....you're all over the place. It wasn't even under debate but you ignore the points I made previously to post this crap. 

 

But troll away. 

[Pans Jambo]

25 minutes ago, jake said:

On point 10.

So the EUs relentless drive towards TTIP mark 2 wont have American Health insurance companies carving up the NHS.

What basis do you have for assuming environmental and food standards will be destroyed?

And what measures have any first world countries agreed on that address the environment?

 

The idea that the UK cannot feed ourselves or source 99% of our medical supplies is scaremongering  on steroids.

 

Also the original point FA made has merit.

Do you think that the same scaremongering hasn't happened regarding Scottish independence?

And wont be ramped up if we vote for it?

 

Also your personal attacks on FA regarding ego etc.

Pish patter .

By the way, how many people in positions of authority over the last 3 years saying that the UK will struggle with readily available pharmaceuticals that cannot be stocked or stored easily (i.e. are manufactured and delivered to the point of need in "just in time" fashion that are either manufactured in the EU or the if they are manufactured in the UK, the main ingredients are sourced from the EU) does it need for you to get your head out your arse!

 

Head in the sand on steroids!

[Pans Jambo]

11 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

At last, you've got something half right. By which I mean the apocryphal Dennis Skinner quote:

 

Skinner: "Half the members opposite are crooks!"

 

Speaker: "Please withdraw that".

 

Skinner: "OK - half the members opposite aren't crooks".

 

More generally: for months and months - in fact, years - some of us have continually reiterated the reality to you. You deny reality and instead indulge in never-ending fantasy. God knows why. I know you're a contrarian, but your posts on this have taken the biscuit.

 

Shall I spell the bleedin' obvious out to you for the 537th time?

 

1. A country cannot leave freedom of movement while remaining in the single market.

 

2. As the UK has a land border with the Republic of Ireland, this creates an immediate problem.

 

3. Northern Ireland must remain in the customs union for there not to be regulatory divergence and hence, a hard border.

 

4. "Technical solutions" to this are pie in the sky. Comparisons with Switzerland, equally so.

 

5. The consequences of a hard border in Northern Ireland will be dire. On this, you've truly surpassed yourself: apparently, you now think you know better about what's good for the people of Northern Ireland than those who grew up during The Troubles. The arrogance. The ego. The reckless irresponsibility and playing with people's lives. Jacob Rees-Mogg, eat your heart out.

 

6. The backstop is necessary in order to prevent a hard border.

 

7. The European Union is, correctly and naturally, committed to protecting its ongoing member state, the Republic of Ireland; not the member state which wants to leave, ie. us.

 

8. The EU cannot give us something which doesn't exist. This isn't Alice in Wonderland; it's real life.

 

9. No Deal means catastrophic consequences for the economy, which is why the government tried to hide the impact assessments. Medical and food shortages mean that people will die. Doctors have already been told not to refer patients to specialists; preparations for No Deal are already imperilling people's lives.

 

10. The idea that 52% of the electorate voted for something which will destroy environmental and food standards, lead the NHS to be carved up by US health insurance companies, plunge us into deep recession, kill people in the weeks and months after we leave and mean not less, but more immigration from any country we want a trade deal with (ie. India) is so ridiculous, it isn't even worth discussing. Naturally, you've gone on suggesting it did.

 

Boris Johnson and his backers are playing a game. A sick, sick game. Turn the people against Parliament; lie forever and ever about the reality (which is that Parliament has protected the people); whip up the mob, seriously endanger the safety of elected legislators and claim that No Deal, which they'll profit from enormously at everyone else's expense, is "the will of the people". It isn't. It never has been. It never will be. And no amount of sophistry, spin and bullshit - sophistry, spin and bullshit about a government which has TRIED TO BREAK THE LAW - from you will ever change that.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, jake said:

On point 10.

So the EUs relentless drive towards TTIP mark 2 wont have American Health insurance companies carving up the NHS.

 

Not if the UK government vetoed it!

 

1 hour ago, jake said:

What basis do you have for assuming environmental and food standards will be destroyed?

 

Do you trust the Tories?

 

1 hour ago, jake said:

 

The idea that the UK cannot feed ourselves or source 99% of our medical supplies is scaremongering  on steroids.

 

The UK needs imports of these things, so given a no deal and WTO etc, not to mention customs etc, then the costs will rocket, and the supply will get in, but eventually, hence the worry of shortages.  Current supply chains, aided by customs union and single market access allow the movement of foods and medical supplies in a just in time case.

 

 

[jake]

27 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

By the way, how many people in positions of authority over the last 3 years saying that the UK will struggle with readily available pharmaceuticals that cannot be stocked or stored easily (i.e. are manufactured and delivered to the point of need in "just in time" fashion that are either manufactured in the EU or the if they are manufactured in the UK, the main ingredients are sourced from the EU) does it need for you to get your head out your arse!

 

Head in the sand on steroids!

I'm not saying there are not specifics involving medicines and a no deal.

 

What I am saying is the hysteria being generated is lies and propaganda.

And what FA was saying should Scotland vote independence the very same tactics will be used.

What I also pulled Shaun up for is the lie that brexit would lead to a NHS carve up while ignoring the relentless drive by the EU to implement TTIP mark 2.

Which enshrines the rights of companies over elected governments.

 

Also all the talk of language that incites bad behaviour seems to totally escape those who wish to remain.

 

My opinion may be different from yours.

Yours is no more factual than mine and is based on worst case scenarios.

As is mine regarding remaining.

 

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Not if the UK government vetoed it!

But wait you ask me if I trust the tories and then you put faith in them to veto what you say they want

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Do you trust the Tories?

 

 

The UK needs imports of these things, so given a no deal and WTO etc, not to mention customs etc, then the costs will rocket, and the supply will get in, but eventually, hence the worry of shortages.  Current supply chains, aided by customs union and single market access allow the movement of foods and medical supplies in a just in time case.

I dont deny there will be difficult problems .

It's the 21st century.

Are you saying the countries that we would rely on for these products would not supply them.

There are as far as I'm aware already plans in place to deal with this.

 

Its scaremongering Boris and the point FA made should be noted regarding Scotland and it's possible independence.

Not dismissed as egotistical as Shaun did.

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

 

[Boris]

Just now, jake said:

 

But wait you ask me if I trust the tories and then you put faith in them to veto what you say they want

 

Not at all.  Just highlighting the mechanism within the EU to prevent TTIP (as was vetoed previously).  You say the EU is hell bent on it, but it appears so is the UK.  Especially the Tories.  At least within the EU we have the hope of veto!

 

Just now, jake said:

I dont deny there will be difficult problems .

It's the 21st century.

Are you saying the countries that we would rely on for these products would not supply them.

There are as far as I'm aware already plans in place to deal with this.

 

No, not saying they wouldn't supply us at all.  What I am saying is that it will take longer for these items to get into the country.

 

Just now, jake said:

 

Its scaremongering Boris and the point FA made should be noted regarding Scotland and it's possible independence.

Not dismissed as egotistical as Shaun did.

 

I'm of the opinion that no deal will be horrific for the country and the people.  I wouldn't trust a tory as far as i could throw one.  They're a bunch of crooks, using a gross misrepresentation of "sovereignty" to hoodwink people into giving them the ability to essentially "heist" the nation.

 

I think FA's points are bullshit to be honest.  Leaving the EU and Scotland gaining independence are two wholly different things.

 

[jake]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Not at all.  Just highlighting the mechanism within the EU to prevent TTIP (as was vetoed previously).  You say the EU is hell bent on it, but it appears so is the UK.  Especially the Tories.  At least within the EU we have the hope of veto!

I've no doubt.

Politicians everywhere are in the pockets of big business.

I disagree that the EU offers more hope.

At least we can still throw stones at our mps to steal an old Scottish saying.

 

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

No, not saying they wouldn't supply us at all.  What I am saying is that it will take longer for these items to get into the country.

Initially perhaps.

Although I accept that's far from ideal

1 minute ago, Boris said:

I'm of the opinion that no deal will be horrific for the country and the people.  I wouldn't trust a tory as far as i could throw one.  They're a bunch of crooks, using a gross misrepresentation of "sovereignty" to hoodwink people into giving them the ability to essentially "heist" the nation.

No deal isn't happening anyway.

And I'm no Tory.

Theres a left wing case for Brexit but asides from that my opinion is that the EU is something that's driven by and for big business.

It's a capitalist club and if this planet is to be fit for future generations it's not the answer.

 

All my opinion fwiw

1 minute ago, Boris said:

I think FA's points are bullshit to be honest.  Leaving the EU and Scotland gaining independence are two wholly different things.

 

They maybe .

But the tactics used to scupper the brexit vote will be the same.

 

They already have been.

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, jake said:

I've no doubt.

Politicians everywhere are in the pockets of big business.

I disagree that the EU offers more hope.

At least we can still throw stones at our mps to steal an old Scottish saying.

 

Useless under our current system though.  The EU is pilloried as undemocratic, yet Westminster is equally, if not more so.  IMO.

11 minutes ago, jake said:

 

Initially perhaps.

Although I accept that's far from ideal

No deal isn't happening anyway.

And I'm no Tory.

Theres a left wing case for Brexit but asides from that my opinion is that the EU is something that's driven by and for big business.

It's a capitalist club and if this planet is to be fit for future generations it's not the answer.

 

Feel more comfortable with a group of nations agreeing standards etc than going it alone.  The whole "western" world is a capitalist club, mitigating that is a better solution, imo, than kissing the US's erse.

 

I'm sure there is a left wing argument for Brexit, except that isn't the road we are going down.

 

11 minutes ago, jake said:

All my opinion fwiw

They maybe .

But the tactics used to scupper the brexit vote will be the same.

 

They already have been.

 

In what way?  And regards "scuppering brexit", what has been done to do that?  Brexiteers not voting for May's deal?  

 

A lot of conflation by people that ruling out no deal = no brexit.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, jake said:

I'm not saying there are not specifics involving medicines and a no deal.

 

What I am saying is the hysteria being generated is lies and propaganda.

And what FA was saying should Scotland vote independence the very same tactics will be used.

What I also pulled Shaun up for is the lie that brexit would lead to a NHS carve up while ignoring the relentless drive by the EU to implement TTIP mark 2.

Which enshrines the rights of companies over elected governments.

 

Also all the talk of language that incites bad behaviour seems to totally escape those who wish to remain.

 

My opinion may be different from yours.

Yours is no more factual than mine and is based on worst case scenarios.

As is mine regarding remaining.

 

But wait you ask me if I trust the tories and then you put faith in them to veto what you say they want

I dont deny there will be difficult problems .

It's the 21st century.

Are you saying the countries that we would rely on for these products would not supply them.

There are as far as I'm aware already plans in place to deal with this.

 

Its scaremongering Boris and the point FA made should be noted regarding Scotland and it's possible independence.

Not dismissed as egotistical as Shaun did.

 

 

I haven't seen or heard any hysteria about No Deal.

 

But there will be hysteria if there is No Deal. And mass panic and a risk of the actual need for the Government to take emergency powers. 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Not at all.  Just highlighting the mechanism within the EU to prevent TTIP (as was vetoed previously).  You say the EU is hell bent on it, but it appears so is the UK.  Especially the Tories.  At least within the EU we have the hope of veto!

 

 

No, not saying they wouldn't supply us at all.  What I am saying is that it will take longer for these items to get into the country.

 

I'm of the opinion that no deal will be horrific for the country and the people.  I wouldn't trust a tory as far as i could throw one.  They're a bunch of crooks, using a gross misrepresentation of "sovereignty" to hoodwink people into giving them the ability to essentially "heist" the nation.

 

I think FA's points are bullshit to be honest.  Leaving the EU and Scotland gaining independence are two wholly different things.

 

Agreed. A much closer and longer union will be more problematic to end than a relatively loose and short one.

[Francis Albert]

15 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

At last, you've got something half right. By which I mean the apocryphal Dennis Skinner quote:

 

Skinner: "Half the members opposite are crooks!"

 

Speaker: "Please withdraw that".

 

Skinner: "OK - half the members opposite aren't crooks".

 

More generally: for months and months - in fact, years - some of us have continually reiterated the reality to you. You deny reality and instead indulge in never-ending fantasy. God knows why. I know you're a contrarian, but your posts on this have taken the biscuit.

 

Shall I spell the bleedin' obvious out to you for the 537th time?

 

1. A country cannot leave freedom of movement while remaining in the single market.

 

2. As the UK has a land border with the Republic of Ireland, this creates an immediate problem.

 

3. Northern Ireland must remain in the customs union for there not to be regulatory divergence and hence, a hard border.

 

4. "Technical solutions" to this are pie in the sky. Comparisons with Switzerland, equally so.

 

5. The consequences of a hard border in Northern Ireland will be dire. On this, you've truly surpassed yourself: apparently, you now think you know better about what's good for the people of Northern Ireland than those who grew up during The Troubles. The arrogance. The ego. The reckless irresponsibility and playing with people's lives. Jacob Rees-Mogg, eat your heart out.

 

6. The backstop is necessary in order to prevent a hard border.

 

7. The European Union is, correctly and naturally, committed to protecting its ongoing member state, the Republic of Ireland; not the member state which wants to leave, ie. us.

 

8. The EU cannot give us something which doesn't exist. This isn't Alice in Wonderland; it's real life.

 

9. No Deal means catastrophic consequences for the economy, which is why the government tried to hide the impact assessments. Medical and food shortages mean that people will die. Doctors have already been told not to refer patients to specialists; preparations for No Deal are already imperilling people's lives.

 

10. The idea that 52% of the electorate voted for something which will destroy environmental and food standards, lead the NHS to be carved up by US health insurance companies, plunge us into deep recession, kill people in the weeks and months after we leave and mean not less, but more immigration from any country we want a trade deal with (ie. India) is so ridiculous, it isn't even worth discussing. Naturally, you've gone on suggesting it did. 

 

Boris Johnson and his backers are playing a game. A sick, sick game. Turn the people against Parliament; lie forever and ever about the reality (which is that Parliament has protected the people); whip up the mob, seriously endanger the safety of elected legislators and claim that No Deal, which they'll profit from enormously at everyone else's expense, is "the will of the people". It isn't. It never has been. It never will be. And no amount of sophistry, spin and bullshit - sophistry, spin and bullshit about a government which has TRIED TO BREAK THE LAW - from you will ever change that.

And someone just posted that he had seen no hysteria about no deal.

[annushorribilis III]

23 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I haven't seen or heard any hysteria about No Deal.

 

But there will be hysteria if there is No Deal. And mass panic and a risk of the actual need for the Government to take emergency powers. 

Panic over what? 

 

Why would the govt need to take emergency powers ? 

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Agreed. A much closer and longer union will be more problematic to end than a relatively loose and short one.

 

Disagree, as they are different types of "union".  Also lots of precedents re nations becoming independent.

 

Brexit is unique.

[Mikey1874]

14 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

Panic over what? 

 

Why would the govt need to take emergency powers ? 

 

Let's wait and see. 

 

No Deal would be a challenge. If you think it will be easy fair enough. 

[AlimOzturk]

12 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Disagree, as they are different types of "union".  Also lots of precedents re nations becoming independent.

 

Brexit is unique.

 

Would not be a walk in the park Scotland leaving the UK.  As others have said, if Brexit is prevented and another referendum votes to remain it sets a precedent. The result from a new Scottish independence referendum would have to be at least a 60% in favour of leaving to stop unionists from campaigning for another referendum. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Would not be a walk in the park Scotland leaving the UK.  As others have said, if Brexit is prevented and another referendum votes to remain it sets a precedent. The result from a new Scottish independence referendum would have to be at least a 60% in favour of leaving to stop unionists from campaigning for another referendum. 

 

Why shouldn't Unionists campaign for another referendum?  I don't see a problem with that.

[AlimOzturk]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Why shouldn't Unionists campaign for another referendum?  I don't see a problem with that.

 

Because a referendum is meant to put the debate to rest. A well intentioned referendum when the truth is told and fear mongering isnt at the forefront. 

 

The problem with last couple referendums is that they where hijacked by the worst crop of politicians the country has probably ever seen. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by AlimOzturk

[jake]

57 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

I haven't seen or heard any hysteria about No Deal.

 

But there will be hysteria if there is No Deal. And mass panic and a risk of the actual need for the Government to take emergency powers. 

You should watch C4 news.

😄 

Or the multitude of stories ran by the papers.

 

It's full on.

 

Anyway no deal Brexit wont happen and neither will we leave with a deal.

Just confirms to me anyway that the EU is already too powerful and its remoteness makes it unaccountable.

 

The very same arguments were used to get us to join back in 73.

We wont be able to feed ourselves 

Etc etc.