Robbie Neilson was not good enough

[Lucille's Thirsty]

Agree.

 

I would also add there has been a smugness around the club since 2014, that we're doing things in a much more modern, enlightened way and that backwards Scottish football better get ready to eat our dust. It's made us look a bit silly in almost every roll-up-your-sleeves-and-fight cup tie since. Robbie wasn't the cause of that but he did buy into it with all his talk of triple training sessions and Scotland being 15 years behind Europe. When guys like Tommy Wright and Alan Stubbs upped the tempo and the stakes, went toe to toe with him, he didn't have an answer and showed little sign of finding one.

Tommy Wright and Alan Stubbs should be managers and coaches when available we should be trying to acquire at Hearts IMO we don't always need to go for a up and coming coach.

 

Let's not forget about Neilson he was given a decent start in the championship with part time teams and I know we had to compete with Hibs and Rangers.

 

Cathro hasn't had that he's been thrown in literally at the deep end.

[socrates82]

Tommy Wright and Alan Stubbs should be managers and coaches when available we should be trying to acquire at Hearts IMO we don't always need to go for a up and coming coach.

 

Let's not forget about Neilson he was given a decent start in the championship with part time teams and I know we had to compete with Hibs and Rangers.

 

Cathro hasn't had that he's been thrown in literally at the deep end.

Has to be a wind up. Alan Stubbs!

[Lucille's Thirsty]

Decent results sure but you're stretching it a bit calling it a 'myth' and by including a couple of draws. There's a list just as big of important games lost.

We're on the same page I was more in the region of big games that we were excited about if you get my drift.

 

Most games and Cup games Vs Hibs

St Johnstone game league cup

Birkarkara

4-0 Celtic league cup

 

He had some fine results in the league games against bigger clubs.

[Lucille's Thirsty]

Has to be a wind up. Alan Stubbs!

 

Apologies.

[Victorian]

Lol. Lies, damned lies.. etc.

 

During the Neilson times, I saw posters slating his 'big matches' record. More than once posters would group the big games together as being Celtic, Rangers and Hibs. No mention of Aberdeen (the team who seem to finish second top of the league). This was when we were beating Aberdeen on a regular basis.

 

Funny that, ay?

 

That said, at the same time we struggled against St.Johnstone. But generally Neilson's 'big match' record was reasonably competitive.

[Silvery_Moon]

Mothy do you honestly think that everybody is basing there opinions based on form now , Because if you do i advise you think again , Robbie and the teams form away from home was woeful the way we went out of cup competitions was woeful , and even some of our home form in games we should have won his tactics, decision making , and we drew was woeful as well , Robbie made excuse after excuse for them and half the time it was utter bull . The problems have been there long before Robbie left and he chose to leave himself however trying to kid ourselves on that everything was rosy under him could not be further from the truth because some of the away games was just brutal . Now in my opinion there has been plenty mistakes been made however its was Robbie that had to take the flak and now it's Cathro and i don't believe for a minute that is right while our DOF sits cosy and everyone knows that he makes many of the decisions . what you got to ask yourself is when is he going to hold his hands up . will he i very much doubt it . AYE and some say it's all a agenda huh i say take the blinkers of .

Good post. How I see it.

[luckydug]

What people forget, is Neilson had a whole summer to build a team before the season started, and built a very good team in the second league.

 

Cathro has been thrown straight into the deep end, and wasn't exactly left with a perfect squad.

 

I would have more sympathy for that point of view if Cathro hadn't shipped out  Igor Rossi and Robbie Muirhead when he knew we were already short of players.

[st1874]

Wanted Neilson out.

 

And I'm still delighted he's away.

[richiehmfc]

Are these folk saying Robbie left because a small section of the crowd got on at him serious???

 

I'm pretty sure he left because he viewed it as a chance to advance his career and get a pay rise. Doubt some belters on kickback moaning about him was given a 2nd thought.

 

Also just because Cathro currently has us playing crap football we don't need to re-write history.

 

Robbie was over cautious and defensive away from home, had a shocking record in cups, including Europe and made some really bad signings.

[Henroddy]

Another myth.

 

2-1 win versus Rangers at Ibrox.

2-0 win versus Rangers at Tynecastle.

2-1 win versus Hibs at Tynecastle

2-1 win versus Aberdeen at Tynecastle

1-0 win versus Aberdeen at Tynecastle

1-0 win versus Aberdeen at Pittodrie

0-0 draw versus Celtic at Celtic Park

2-2 draw with Celtic at Tynecastle

2-0 win versus Rangers at Tynecastle

Alas, some on here hate him no matter what particularly as we didnt get the result against Hibs. The same people who hated him probably think Wayne Foster is a Hearts legend even though he was utter shite! Opinion is opinion. Facts are facts. When he left we were 2nd. We are now struggling to hold onto top 6

[iainmac]

You said it was shocking. What does that make our other managers?

His record is shocking. It's a moot point about the others. Different debate.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

What is your take on the present situation given that you were so vociferous in wanting Robbie out ?

FWIW I feel that Robbie felt he was taking unfair flak from the fans and decided to take a job where he would be his own man and not tied to the DOF strategy .

In other words if he is getting flak at least it will be because of his own decisions.

delighted that he chose to jump ship

delighted that no-one seriously tried to stop him

 

cathro was always going to be a gamble - things looking worrying at the moment but hopefully he can turn it round relatively quickly

 

I raised concerns about dof+rookie manager when we were winning games 10-0 so the whole model is slightly worrying - levein is now rightly coming under pressure too but hopefully it will turn around

 

arguably our attempts at replacing mchattie have so far failed but that doesn't mean it was a mistake to replace him - the mistake part is in the chosen replacements

 

minimum requirement from a hearts manager from me is to finish above the dross and put in fighting performances when we lose and be competitive in the cups

 

neilson failed other than finishing above the dross including the championship season which was dross but deserves credit for delivering that due to its importance

 

neilson also got a free pass from me for the cups in the championship season due to the importance of the main/only objective

 

I don't think what I'm looking for is too much to ask, I'm not even that bothered about entertaining football

 

hopefully cathro can exceed my expectations if he doesn't I shouldn't think it should be too difficult to find a hybrid dinosaur who could - that obviously would depend on the 'levein situation'

[Tasavallan]

What has surprised me is the timing of it all. We had the Board meeting one week, Neilson resigns (mutual consent) and joins MKD the next week, then Cathro & McPhee arrive soon after. These moves must have been well orchestrated, just look at the mess over at Castle Greyskull.

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

Alas, some on here hate him no matter what particularly as we didnt get the result against Hibs. The same people who hated him probably think Wayne Foster is a Hearts legend even though he was utter shite! Opinion is opinion. Facts are facts. When he left we were 2nd. We are now struggling to hold onto top 6

totally disrespectful to Wayne foster

 

no Robbo no jc but a very decent player over a number of years who showed effort courage and some skill throughout

 

2 goals in a European tie - not many in that club im guessing

 

'Struggling to hold onto top 6' is subjective so in the context of you sentence

[Jammy T]

It's still a big 'meh' for me. He did a good job, great job even, but I felt the slip into dull mediocrity was happening long before he left and the team was bailed out by CP a number of times.

 

I guess it depends where your expectations are. Personally I feel being where "Hearts have usually been" is underachieving in the current context of Scottish football, with finances evening out, Rangers awful, and our big crowd sizes and extra income. Bobbing around between 3rd and 4th and papped out the cups with a whimper was decent return for Craig Levein in 2003 but a lot different now. That doesn't mean he should have been sacked for underachieving but it did mean to me we should have been aiming higher, more ambitious. It's a different debate entirely whether having Cathro here has helped or hindered that.

 

I never felt Robbie had it in him to propel the team on when the stakes were high and I still don't. I'm not sure his successor floundering a bit changes that really. Robbie's reputation with us was helped massively by that last win over Rangers, which was a great win but really our first barnstorming performance against decent opposition in more than two years.

 

Anyway, I like him and wish him well but I don't think his loss will do us any damage over the long term.

Good players have bailed us out for years.

 

Rudi baled Sergio out.

 

Without Kyle JJs team was shite

[queensferryjambo]

I was a Neilson fan but also had a feeling he had taken us as far as could. Had he gotten the same options of new players in the January transfer window that Cathro got would he have taken us further to a 3rd place or better IMO very probably.

 

Never got and still don't get the level of hate some of our support could muster for him. Robbie IMO always tried his best for the club. 

[The Internet]

We're on the same page I was more in the region of big games that we were excited about if you get my drift.

 

Most games and Cup games Vs Hibs

St Johnstone game league cup

Birkarkara

4-0 Celtic league cup

 

He had some fine results in the league games against bigger clubs.

Is that Celtic game the one where we were a championship side and played with 10 men for 85 minutes? Doesn't really belong alongside the Birkirkara debacle.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I think if Robbie had stayed we'd finish second this year, and that would be good enough for me for this season.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It still amazes me that the Robbie lovers think that fans forced him out. Surely their ire should be aimed at Levein or Budge for not trying to keep him?

 

He chose mid-table obscurity in England's third tier. He's welcome to it.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think if Robbie had stayed we'd finish second this year, and that would be good enough for me for this season.

 

With Sammon and Watt blasting in the goals?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

 

With Sammon and Watt blasting in the goals?

 

No, both clearly would have been shipped out and replaced. On the other hand, when Robbie left, Johnsen was on pace of a goal about every three games rather than looking like the lost soul he is now.

[Victorian]

I think Jammy made a valid comparison there. I fail to understand the derision.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

No, both clearly would have been shipped out and replaced. On the other hand, when Robbie left, Johnsen was on pace of a goal about every three games rather than looking like the lost soul he is now.

I hate to break it to you but Aberdeen are a far better side than us. A fit Paterson is about the only player who would get in their team.

[Spellczech]

Far too cautious after our Championship season and shocking away from home & in cup competitions.

 

Was never a "Phoodle Oot" guy but wasn't devastated when he moved on either.

 

Having said that, current performances are unacceptable & I'd be expecting everyone at the club from AB down to be working hard - and I'm sure they are - to rectify the situation.

Mind reader. Well said.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

I think Jammy made a valid comparison there. I fail to understand the derision.

The comment was "CP bailed us out a lot earlier in the season". Do you agree or disagree with that? What is the relevance of previous times that happened? Although while we're on it, worth pointing out that JJ was sacked just months after KK stopped bailing him out.

[Bowmans_Boot]

I hate to break it to you but Aberdeen are a far better side than us. A fit Paterson is about the only player who would get in their team.

 

Jamie Walker would walk into their team. I think Goncalves would get a game, as well. Fair enough he isn't flavour of the month but he is quality and will show it once he has settled in. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

I think if Robbie had stayed we'd finish second this year, and that would be good enough for me for this season.

 

What is this based upon? We were never second when every club had played the same number of games, anyway.

[Victorian]

The comment was "CP bailed us out a lot earlier in the season". Do you agree or disagree with that? What is the relevance of previous times that happened? Although while we're on it, worth pointing out that JJ was sacked just months after KK stopped bailing him out.

CP certainly made a huge contribution. Maybe the way to look at it is that we simply miss a very influential player. The Skacel comparison was quite valid. That team was average, even with Rudi. He was critical to that team.

[Bowmans_Boot]

Another myth.

 

2-1 win versus Rangers at Ibrox.

2-0 win versus Rangers at Tynecastle.

2-1 win versus Hibs at Tynecastle

2-1 win versus Aberdeen at Tynecastle

1-0 win versus Aberdeen at Tynecastle

1-0 win versus Aberdeen at Pittodrie

0-0 draw versus Celtic at Celtic Park

2-2 draw with Celtic at Tynecastle

2-0 win versus Rangers at Tynecastle

 

Good God. a 2-2 home draw against Celtic is an example of a great result?? 

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

CP certainly made a huge contribution. Maybe the way to look at it is that we simply miss a very influential player. The Skacel comparison was quite valid. That team was average, even with Rudi. He was critical to that team.

Fair enough, agree with that.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I hate to break it to you but Aberdeen are a far better side than us. A fit Paterson is about the only player who would get in their team.

 

This is all counterfactual, so there's no resolution to this argument.  On our current form, you might be correct, but many of our players were playing considerably better in October than they are now. Considine, Taylor, and Logan, for instance, are hardly world beaters.

 

I think that with updates to the squad that Robbie would have made over January that we would have been a better squad than Aberdeen.  On their better days (which we haven't seen in a while) Djoum, Walker, and Cowie make a formidable midfield.  

 

When Robbie left we were a left back and a second striker shy of being a truly formidable squad. Paterson's injury aside, our players didn't coincidentally turn to shite at the same time he left.  We've stopped playing as well as we were.  The reason is that Robbie, by talent or experience, is currently a much better manager than Cathro. 

[Martin_T]

I was a Robbie fan and thought he did a good job, but it was his choice to leave, so I also don't understand the told you so brigade on here.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

This is all counterfactual, so there's no resolution to this argument. On our current form, you might be correct, but many of our players were playing considerably better in October than they are now. Considine, Taylor, and Logan, for instance, are hardly world beaters.

 

I think that with updates to the squad that Robbie would have made over January that we would have been a better squad than Aberdeen. On their better days (which we haven't seen in a while) Djoum, Walker, and Cowie make a formidable midfield.

 

When Robbie left we were a left back and a second striker shy of being a truly formidable squad. Paterson's injury aside, our players didn't coincidentally turn to shite at the same time he left. We've stopped playing as well as we were. The reason is that Robbie, by talent or experience, is currently a much better manager than Cathro.

Based on the evidence of who we signed in the close season, that's some claim to make that he would magic up a better team in the January window!

[Jammy T]

The comment was "CP bailed us out a lot earlier in the season". Do you agree or disagree with that? What is the relevance of previous times that happened? Although while we're on it, worth pointing out that JJ was sacked just months after KK stopped bailing him out.

Don't know what your problem is.

 

Genuinely.

 

There was no inflammatory language in that post.

 

Certain players have bailed teams out a lot. We've had recent examples.

 

Sorry if that ****s over your point.

[queensferryjambo]

Good God. a 2-2 home draw against Celtic is an example of a great result?? 

 

Have to say considering we were losing with 91 minutes on the clock and Sow scored a screamer - it was a great result.

 

 

Any excuse - 

 

[VALDOS]

Huge backwards step since he left, the majority of the players believed in him.

Thats certainly not the case with Cathro.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Based on the evidence of who we signed in the close season, that's some claim to make that he would magic up a better team in the January window!

 

I think Robbie wouldn't have shipped Rossi out, which would instantly improve our current CH situation. I think he'd be getting more out of Goncalves and certainly out of Johnsen.  I don't think it's a stretch to say Walker wouldn't be in such a poor run of form, or that Kitchen would be looking so utterly lost. I think he'd be setting us up considerably better and getting more out of Choulay and possibly Tziolis (CMs tended to look good in Robbie's system -- e.g., Gomis, Pallardo).

 

Cathro may end up being better than Neilson in the end, but we're simply playing worse under him than we were under Neilson. Is that even arguable?

[Bowmans_Boot]

Have to say considering we were losing with 91 minutes on the clock and Sow scored a screamer - it was a great result.

 

 

Any excuse - 

 

 

It was an exciting end to the game (& I absolutely loved it!!), it wasn't an example of a "great result", lets not kid ourselves. A great result would be beating them, not drawing.

[iainmac]

I think Robbie wouldn't have shipped Rossi out, which would instantly improve our current CH situation. I think he'd be getting more out of Goncalves and certainly out of Johnsen. I don't think it's a stretch to say Walker wouldn't be in such a poor run of form, or that Kitchen would be looking so utterly lost. I think he'd be setting us up considerably better and getting more out of Choulay and possibly Tziolis (CMs tended to look good in Robbie's system -- e.g., Gomis, Pallardo).

 

Cathro may end up being better than Neilson in the end, but we're simply playing worse under him than we were under Neilson. Is that even arguable?

I don't think anyone shipped Rossi out - I think he was made an offer that improved his lot & presumably we were paid a fee for his services.

 

You are basically saying that the players you name would've produced more under Robbie than they are under Ian. If that's the case, they should have a long look at themselves. Not the type of players we need at our club.

[Nucky Thompson]

Huge backwards step since he left, the majority of the players believed in him.

 

Hahaha. You're having a laugh. He couldn't motivate any of them

[Ray Gin]

Good God. a 2-2 home draw against Celtic is an example of a great result?? 

 

It's a very good result considering Celtic's budget is at least 5 times that of our own.

[Lucille's Thirsty]

It's a very good result considering Celtic's budget is at least 5 times that of our own.

If you were talking about the Celtic of this year then you have a point.

[Bowmans_Boot]

It's a very good result considering Celtic's budget is at least 5 times that of our own.

 

Up until this season Celtic didn't win every single game, they were beatable. Albeit not by us. So no, it wasn't great, just a good fightback.

[jock _turd]

I did not like the way Robbie set out his team and the style of play was turgid but that was then and Robbie left end of. The problem for me is we have then gone on to employ someone as a manager who quite simply is not up to the task. That is not his fault by the way we employed him... it was a ridiculous appointment for a club of the stature of Heart of Midlothian to have made it should never have happened and now we are reaping the rewards of stupidity. 

[Bowmans_Boot]

I did not like the way Robbie set out his team and the style of play was turgid but that was then and Robbie left end of. The problem for me is we have then gone on to employ someone as a manager who quite simply is not up to the task. That is not his fault by the way we employed him... it was a ridiculous appointment for a club of the stature of Heart of Midlothian to have made it should never have happened and now we are reaping the rewards of stupidity. 

 

I disagree. It isn't working immediately but I do believe that it will, given time. Ian Cathro will prove to be a great Hearts manager and lead us to success we would never, ever have enjoyed under Neilson.

 

If a fan wants to finish 3rd/4th every year, never, ever do anything in Europe and never, ever win a cup then yes, Robbie was the perfect manager. If, however, a fan wishes to experience days like 16/05/98 or 19/05/12 then he most certainly was not. 

[siegementality]

Despite the disappointment of recent results i am convinced we will progress more without Neilson. Whether that is with Cathro or not remains to be seen. At least Cathro is committed to the club, unlike Neilson who fecked off at the first opportunity.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think Robbie wouldn't have shipped Rossi out, which would instantly improve our current CH situation. I think he'd be getting more out of Goncalves and certainly out of Johnsen. I don't think it's a stretch to say Walker wouldn't be in such a poor run of form, or that Kitchen would be looking so utterly lost. I think he'd be setting us up considerably better and getting more out of Choulay and possibly Tziolis (CMs tended to look good in Robbie's system -- e.g., Gomis, Pallardo).

 

Cathro may end up being better than Neilson in the end, but we're simply playing worse under him than we were under Neilson. Is that even arguable?

I'm not arguing that we're playing worse. Nor does it mean I want him back.

 

As for the players you mention they are all Cathro/McPhee signings so they wouldn't be here.

[siegementality]

This is all counterfactual, so there's no resolution to this argument.  On our current form, you might be correct, but many of our players were playing considerably better in October than they are now. Considine, Taylor, and Logan, for instance, are hardly world beaters.

 

I think that with updates to the squad that Robbie would have made over January that we would have been a better squad than Aberdeen.  On their better days (which we haven't seen in a while) Djoum, Walker, and Cowie make a formidable midfield.  

 

When Robbie left we were a left back and a second striker shy of being a truly formidable squad. Paterson's injury aside, our players didn't coincidentally turn to shite at the same time he left.  We've stopped playing as well as we were.  The reason is that Robbie, by talent or experience, is currently a much better manager than Cathro.

 

You are beginning to make a habit of talking shite.

[Rudy T]

There's defining factors in Neilson and Cathro (to date) careers.

 

Neilson lost Sow at an absolutely crucial point in the season.

 

Cathro has lost our one and only leader in Patterson.

 

They were both knocked out of the Cup by Hibs.

 

Neilson didn't recover and I very much doubt Cathro will either. I want him too I really do but I worry about giving him pots of precious cash this summer in what has to be a successful season to continue our stability as a club.

[TheBigO]

Sorry if this has been said but I haven't read rest of thread cos I can probably guess about every 2nd post!!

 

But I said last night that I didn't feel that performance was any different from so many under Neilson.  It was uninventive, slow and stale.  Probably overthought with players either not getting what they were to do, or simply not clever enough to do it.

 

The big difference between Neilson and Cathro?  Calum Paterson.

 

The end.

 

That's not me standing up for Cathro, not having a go at Neilson.  But CP got us wins from draws and draws from losses.  We have noone like that now.

 

The whole thing has needed simplified for 2 years.  442.  We played two wingers last night but it didn't give us the width we need cos they played on the "wrong" wings.  Djoum should have just been 10 yards closer to Johnsen rather than trying to interchange with Cowie.  Johnsen should be on 5 hours a day of how to kill the ball, stick oot his erse and wait feed support.

 

But that sort of stuff could have been written at any time in the last 2 years.