Holding midfielder

[Captain Lithuania]

Kitchen has been poor since he joined. He's not good enough to play for us, he's as bad as a man down.

[i8hibsh]

Kitchen has been poor since he joined. He's not good enough to play for us, he's as bad as a man down.

 

 

True but he is capable.  First game of the season (Celtic) I was like wow.  But then Sunday you think what is the ****ing point in him being here.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

True but he is capable.  First game of the season (Celtic) I was like wow.  But then Sunday you think what is the ******* point in him being here.

He was suspended for the first game of the season

[King prawn]

True but he is capable. First game of the season (Celtic) I was like wow. But then Sunday you think what is the ******* point in him being here.

This is what I don't understand. I thought he was going to be a good find and he did look the part when he first joined. Has his form dipped roughly since he was made captain?

[i8hibsh]

He was suspended for the first game of the season

 

 

Maybe it was end of last season then.  I remember him playing v Celtic and he was outstanding.  

[Howdy Doody Jambo]

Our defence ATM isn't as strong as your username.

 

Nothing wrong with that, especially if the full backs are attacking.

Suppose we should be scared stiff of the mighty Raith Rovers attack force

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Maybe it was end of last season then.  I remember him playing v Celtic and he was outstanding.  

Think you are talking about the game at Parkhead? We started well and Walker scored. To be honest they beat us 3-1 quite comfortably and were happy to stand off and give us the ball and time. Even Oshinawa looked good that day

[Bazzas right boot]

Suppose we should be scared stiff of the mighty Raith Rovers attack force

Dunno about that.

 

I wouldn't play two holding midfielders tho. Novak or kitchen needs dropped for prince or fish man.

[i8hibsh]

Think you are talking about the game at Parkhead? We started well and Walker scored. To be honest they beat us 3-1 quite comfortably and were happy to stand off and give us the ball and time. Even Oshinawa looked good that day

 

 

Bingo.

[portobellojambo1]

if we intend to play this holding midfielder role who is the best player to fit into this position

 

Kitchen for me isn't a footballer he possibly could play centre half ....(. Debatable as it is )

 

The best defensive footballer we have by miles is John Souter very good on the ball .... has he been played there and if so did he do well ?

 

I said from the outset we didn't need a defensive midfield player, there should be sufficient energetic players in midfield which means the only reason defending needs come into consideration is if the opposition have reached the back four. There have already been comments on this board in the last couple of days about us defending, especially at corners, with everyone in or around our own penalty area. It is a symptom of having no one in midfield you can count on to win the ball at the edge of the box and move to release it quickly going forward, safer to just pack our own area and move forward slowly. Midfield players who are predominantly attacking can hold the midfield, because it isn't actually the midfield you are holding it is access to the ball. Players who are fast, can use and accurately move the ball in a forward direction effectively hold the midfield as they are forcing the opposition to defend much further up the park, pulling them away from their own penalty area and creating space automatically for our players to run into.

[beerbandit]

if we intend to play this holding midfielder role who is the best player to fit into this position

 

Kitchen for me isn't a footballer he possibly could play centre half ....(. Debatable as it is )

 

The best defensive footballer we have by miles is John Souter very good on the ball .... has he been played there and if so did he do well ?

Been saying this for a while now. Souter also has a bit pace, something we lack in central midfield. Play Novak centre back. 

[i8hibsh]

Been saying this for a while now. Souter also has a bit pace, something we lack in central midfield. Play Novak centre back. 

 

 

He needs to have pace to chase his first touch.

[portobellojambo1]

Maybe it was end of last season then.  I remember him playing v Celtic and he was outstanding.  

 

 

Yet in the game we did open this season against Celtic with he was missing, and that is the best we have played against Celtic for donkeys, because the emphasis was on trying to match them going forward rather than just holding the middle of the park.

[mr fox]

The best I have seen at it in Scotland are McStay, Bett and Barry Ferguson. All can read a game and great passers. You don't need a defensive stopper!

This is it nailed on we need a player in there not Nowak or kitchen a proper midfield player a good passer and comfortable on the ball

Why do we persist with defenders in this role it beggars belief

 

I do think levein is behind this thinking

[mr fox]

It's a role that has ruined modern football. A role for someone with little actual footballing ability.

So true but what do we know

[portobellojambo1]

Been saying this for a while now. Souter also has a bit pace, something we lack in central midfield. Play Novak centre back. 

 

 

Souttar is playing in his best position, he got pissed off with being moved here, there and everywhere while at Dundee United. We now have an experienced centre half who is here as well to bring Souttar on even further. and that is what we need to do in his best position, reap the rewards now and the financial rewards when he moves on rather than stick him somewhere else to plug existing problems created by poor signings, we should have learned that doesn't work by the number of players who we've ruined by trying the same sort of thing previously.

[cosanostra]

Busquets, Xavi, Roy Keane, Edgar Davids, Souness, Lothar Mattheus, Didier Deschamps, Dunga, Makelele, Michael Essien, Sami Khedira, Bryan Robson, Rino Gattuso, N'golo Kante and that's just off the top of my head.

Not really in full agreement that the hard tackling, hard working, protector of the defence style of midfielder has "ruined the modern game".

In fact, that's a terrible, terrible shout.

[amadjambo]

Busquets, Xavi, Roy Keane, Edgar Davids, Souness, Lothar Mattheus, Didier Deschamps, Dunga, Makelele, Michael Essien, Sami Khedira, Bryan Robson, Rino Gattuso, N'golo Kante and that's just off the top of my head.

Not really in full agreement that the hard tackling, hard working, protector of the defence style of midfielder has "ruined the modern game".

In fact, that's a terrible, terrible shout.

All those guys you mentioned could pick a pass, take a shot, and as you said tackle hard and protect the defence. Kitchen can do none of those.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Busquets, Xavi, Roy Keane, Edgar Davids, Souness, Lothar Mattheus, Didier Deschamps, Dunga, Makelele, Michael Essien, Sami Khedira, Bryan Robson, Rino Gattuso, N'golo Kante and that's just off the top of my head.

Not really in full agreement that the hard tackling, hard working, protector of the defence style of midfielder has "ruined the modern game".

In fact, that's a terrible, terrible shout.

Holy shite, are you for real? Xavi, Keane, Davids, Souness, Matthaus, Robson were great all round midfielders. 

[i8hibsh]

You can go an entire game and barely notice a striker, a goalie, a winger or defender and it is not the end of the world.  If you go an entire game and not even notice your captain who is a central midfielder you are literally ****ed.  I utterly despise Scott Brown but he really does get involved in every tackle and you ntoice him throughout.  I remember Kitchen popping up on the TV screen once during Sunday's game.

[cosanostra]

All those guys you mentioned could pick a pass, take a shot, and as you said tackle hard and protect the defence. Kitchen can do none of those.

 

I agree re Kitchen but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

 

 

Holy shite, are you for real? Xavi, Keane, Davids, Souness, Matthaus, Robson were great all round midfielders. 

 

Eh, yeah, obviously. They were primarily ball winners though. Making tackles in midfield was their job. Clearly they were some of the best of all time in that role as they proved but they were ball winners first and foremost.

[amadjambo]

I agree re Kitchen but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

 

 

 

Eh, yeah, obviously. They were primarily ball winners though. Making tackles in midfield was their job. Clearly they were some of the best of all time in that role as they proved but they were ball winners first and foremost.

In Scotland, Scott Brown plays the role brilliantly, and Shinnie & Jack have also been impressive in that role at Aberdeen. It can work, but not with an empty jersey in the role.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

I agree re Kitchen but that's not really relevant to the point I was making.

 

 

 

Eh, yeah, obviously. They were primarily ball winners though. Making tackles in midfield was their job. Clearly they were some of the best of all time in that role as they proved but they were ball winners first and foremost.

You are actually backing up our point though. A team like Hearts need midfielders who can contribute more to the game

[cosanostra]

In Scotland, Scott Brown plays the role brilliantly, and Shinnie & Jack have also been impressive in that role at Aberdeen. It can work, but not with an empty jersey in the role.

 

True. Salvatori was great for us in that role. Loved the guy.

[cosanostra]

You are actually backing up our point though. A team like Hearts need midfielders who can contribute more to the game

 

Nope. I'm saying the claim that the holding midfielder ruined the modern game is absolutely ridiculous as some of the finest players of the modern era played that role.

 

If your point is that we need Roy Keane or Michael Essien, then aye, I agree with your point. Unless we produce one ourselves, we clearly can't sign players of that level so that's maybe not likely. Scott Severin was pretty decent I guess.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Nope. I'm saying the claim that the holding midfielder ruined the modern game is absolutely ridiculous as some of the finest players of the modern era played that role.

 

If your point is that we need Roy Keane or Michael Essien, then aye, I agree with your point. Unless we produce one ourselves, we clearly can't sign players of that level so that's maybe not likely. Scott Severin was pretty decent I guess.

I disagree they were holding midfielders. They were all round midfielders. 

[cosanostra]

I disagree they were holding midfielders. They were all round midfielders. 

 

Disagree all you want, their job was to win the ball in midfield primarily.

I just picked the best of the best who all had numerous other strings to their bow eg. Mattheus - thunderous shot, Keane - driving forward runs, born leader,  Kante - great passer etc etc

 

Your point seems to be that because they were / are so good, they can't be classified as tackling midfielders. Well they can because that was their role within the team dynamic. They just excelled and were great at other facets of the game too.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Disagree all you want, their job was to win the ball in midfield primarily.

I just picked the best of the best who all had numerous other strings to their bow eg. Mattheus - thunderous shot, Keane - driving forward runs, born leader,  Kante - great passer etc etc

 

Your point seems to be that because they were / are so good, they can't be classified as tackling midfielders. Well they can because that was their role within the team dynamic. They just excelled and were great at other facets of the game too.

Just need to agree to disagree. They were all-round midfielders, most of them great leaders that drove teams on. When they went forward they had an understanding with their midfield partner, one went, one sat. Just happens they were also good at tackling and being aggressive and reading the game well.

[Spencer]

Maybe it was end of last season then. I remember him playing v Celtic and he was outstanding.

You're probably thinking of the 3-1 defeat at Parkhead last season that some of our fans celebrated like a victory. We were wonderful it would seem

[hmfc_liam06]

Disagree all you want, their job was to win the ball in midfield primarily.

I just picked the best of the best who all had numerous other strings to their bow eg. Mattheus - thunderous shot, Keane - driving forward runs, born leader,  Kante - great passer etc etc

 

Your point seems to be that because they were / are so good, they can't be classified as tackling midfielders. Well they can because that was their role within the team dynamic. They just excelled and were great at other facets of the game too.

 

None of those players sole role was to sit and protect the defence.

 

That's the role we're talking about here.

[upgotheheads]

Our defensive problems seem to stem from the midfield's inability to to press the opposition, especially in the second half of games after dominating the first half. This has happened too often to be a coincidence.

 

Raith Rovers was just the latest example, and as much as I liked Kitchen when he first arrived it's his job to win back posession and break up the opposition attacks, and it's just not happening just now. Maybe it's time to give Souttar a game in that area.

 

We have a soft midfield with not enough creativity and bite. Cowie and Buaben unfortunately are in the same category. We need a box to box midfielder like Scott Severin.

[cosanostra]

None of those players sole role was to sit and protect the defence.

 

That's the role we're talking about here.

 

Say what???

I wrote a list of the best defensive midfielders of the last 20-30 years.

Of course protecting the defence is part of the job of the DM. It's kind of suggested in the position name. 

If a centre half pushes forward with the ball, they can fall back in and cover for them. When the opposition have the ball, they sit in front of the centre halves and try to break up play. 

This is pretty basic stuff tbh.

[Arthur Morgan]

Xavi was not a holding midfielder, that was Busquets job. Xavi was a creative, link player.

[cosanostra]

Xavi was not a holding midfielder, that was Busquets job. Xavi was a creative, link player.

Iniesta was always the creative Barcelona midfielder. Xavi sat deeper and did defend a lot but yeah, probably more of a playmaker than a classic DM.

[cosanostra]

Incidentally, just googled greatest defensive midfielders of all time and greatest holding midfielders of all time and there are dozens of newspaper, magazine and blog article that just about all mention at least most of the players i listed.

Can't believe i missed Rijkaard.

[Cruyff Turn]

None of those players sole role was to sit and protect the defence.

 

That's the role we're talking about here.

I wouldn't even say the role Nowak has or meant to occupy could even be described as a midfield role.

[i8hibsh]

Incidentally, just googled greatest defensive midfielders of all time and greatest holding midfielders of all time and there are dozens of newspaper, magazine and blog article that just about all mention at least most of the players i listed.

Can't believe i missed Rijkaard.

 

 

And Barry Ferguson.

[Glottis]

It's definitely a role we need if our full backs are to be as attacking as we want.

 

The problem seems to be when Novak and Kitchen play. It worked well against Killie as Kitchen be harried them and the other midfielders were enough going forward.

Unfortunately Kitchen's not been enough on the ball or going forward in the games since

[smiler]

Who was the poster that was adamant Pirlo was a defensive mid? I disagreed with him and he got a bit nippy.

He then started a poll on defensive mids, which to be fair was quite decent.

[Serge Pizzorno]

Hamilton

Souttar Hughes

Nowak

Struna Martin Djoum Sowah

Walker Nicholson

Johnson

 

Kitchen back up to Nowak

Buaben/Cowie back up to Martin/Djoum

[Serge Pizzorno]

3-4-3 Chelsea formation above btw

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Who was the poster that was adamant Pirlo was a defensive mid? I disagreed with him and he got a bit nippy.

He then started a poll on defensive mids, which to be fair was quite decent.

Is it just me or was it just midfielders until SKY started analysing the shit out of everything? I can't recall calling Gary Mackay a CAM and Kenny Black a defensive mid. Can mind calling kenny other things mind you

[smiler]

Is it just me or was it just midfielders until SKY started analysing the shit out of everything? I can't recall calling Gary Mackay a CAM and Kenny Black a defensive mid. Can mind calling kenny other things mind you

It might be Sky's fault, or EA's Fifa

[mr fox]

You can go an entire game and barely notice a striker, a goalie, a winger or defender and it is not the end of the world. If you go an entire game and not even notice your captain who is a central midfielder you are literally ****ed. I utterly despise Scott Brown but he really does get involved in every tackle and you ntoice him throughout. I remember Kitchen popping up on the TV screen once during Sunday's game.

Brown is always available for a pass and drives the team on in this position

 

What exactly does kitchen do I am baffled

[i8hibsh]

Brown is always available for a pass and drives the team on in this position

 

What exactly does kitchen do I am baffled

 

 

Doesn't even high 5 the other squad members which is the least you would expect from an American

 

[Kendoll]

I really like Kitchen, but his early promise has definitely faded recently. Think a wee spell out would do him good. I definitely think he has a future here though.

 

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[Bauld]

I really like Kitchen, but his early promise has definitely faded recently. Think a wee spell out would do him good. I definitely think he has a future here though.

 

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A lot of people said the same about Djoum a while back. Now we can't wait to get him back.

 

 

A lot more wanted Buaben hunted out the club. Now most on here are delighted he's fit again because he's become quite vital to our chemistry.

 

 

Sometimes players just go off the boil and it can take time for them to find it again.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

A lot of people said the same about Djoum a while back. Now we can't wait to get him back.

 

 

A lot more wanted Buaben hunted out the club. Now most on here are delighted he's fit again because he's become quite vital to our chemistry.

 

 

Sometimes players just go off the boil and it can take time for them to find it again.

We basically have too many inconsistent players and not enough good ones. Have faith in Cathro to get it right

[i8hibsh]

For me this is the pecking order :

1. Djoum
2. Martin
3. Bauben
4. Cowie
5. Kitchen