Minimum unit pricing

[The Brow]

11 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Ban alcohol altogether.  Simple.

 

**** Off John 

 

[JamboX2]

19 hours ago, Cade said:

The govt can't get the money, as that would be a tax in the form of extra alcohol duty.

 

Which is a reserved matter for Westminster.

 

Most recent devolution acts allow for the creation of new taxes. This came after this policy was begun but given the policy has been dragged through the courts for 5 years a change in policy was possible.

[Unknown user]

19 hours ago, John Findlay said:

As long as there is alcohol there will be alcoholics. Alcoholics from all walks of life. Rich, poor, well educated, uneducated. Humans are fallible and always will be.

That may be true but banning alcohol won't stop alcohol being produced, it'll just force it underground and make it impossible to manage

[OTT]

My view on this is that it only effects the bottom of society, low income alcoholics. Alcoholism is an addiction meaning for an alcoholic bevy is an inelastic good - Price has no bearing on their consumption and they will happily go without to ensure they get their fix. If they have kids then what is the effect? Will they be able to still buy decent food for the kids or will they move down to super noodles so they can save an extra quid or so for drink?

 

All this legislation - 'pasty tax', 'sugar tax' etc. pushes up the cost of living and takes a little more money out your pocket each time.

 

I think its an invasive policy that is little more than a vanity project by Sturgeon. I'm an SNP yes voter but i'm deeply unhappy at this legislation. Independence is a major issue for me but if that gives them carte blanche to implement these utterly ridiculous nanny statesque policies it really leaves me at a loose end. In my opinion the governments role is to provide essential services, not police what you consume. 

 

I'm not a driver but this 20 mph nonsense is another utterly ridiculous policy. I've never seen so much congestion in Edinburgh before. No one voted for it, yet its being thrust upon us. Hardly democratic. 

[maroongoals]

4 hours ago, OTT said:

My view on this is that it only effects the bottom of society, low income alcoholics. Alcoholism is an addiction meaning for an alcoholic bevy is an inelastic good - Price has no bearing on their consumption and they will happily go without to ensure they get their fix. If they have kids then what is the effect? Will they be able to still buy decent food for the kids or will they move down to super noodles so they can save an extra quid or so for drink?

 

All this legislation - 'pasty tax', 'sugar tax' etc. pushes up the cost of living and takes a little more money out your pocket each time.

 

I think its an invasive policy that is little more than a vanity project by Sturgeon. I'm an SNP yes voter but i'm deeply unhappy at this legislation. Independence is a major issue for me but if that gives them carte blanche to implement these utterly ridiculous nanny statesque policies it really leaves me at a loose end. In my opinion the governments role is to provide essential services, not police what you consume. 

 

I'm not a driver but this 20 mph nonsense is another utterly ridiculous policy. I've never seen so much congestion in Edinburgh before. No one voted for it, yet its being thrust upon us. Hardly democratic. 

I agree to a tee, well put Sir, the 20mph is the council decision .

Edited May 15, 2018 by maroongoals

[Helzibob]

4 hours ago, OTT said:

My view on this is that it only effects the bottom of society, low income alcoholics. Alcoholism is an addiction meaning for an alcoholic bevy is an inelastic good - Price has no bearing on their consumption and they will happily go without to ensure they get their fix. If they have kids then what is the effect? Will they be able to still buy decent food for the kids or will they move down to super noodles so they can save an extra quid or so for drink?

 

All this legislation - 'pasty tax', 'sugar tax' etc. pushes up the cost of living and takes a little more money out your pocket each time.

 

I think its an invasive policy that is little more than a vanity project by Sturgeon. I'm an SNP yes voter but i'm deeply unhappy at this legislation. Independence is a major issue for me but if that gives them carte blanche to implement these utterly ridiculous nanny statesque policies it really leaves me at a loose end. In my opinion the governments role is to provide essential services, not police what you consume. 

 

I'm not a driver but this 20 mph nonsense is another utterly ridiculous policy. I've never seen so much congestion in Edinburgh before. No one voted for it, yet its being thrust upon us. Hardly democratic. 

 

I can’t say I disagree with any of that. I’ve been saying all along that those who drink 2L bottles of strong cider for breakfast will still be addicted and will still do so. That children will suffer as their parents aren’t buying appropriate food and that theft in shops will increase. Rather than minimum pricing which just puts more money in the retailers pockets we should be putting money into prevention and treatment of alcohol issues. 

 

Oh and 20 MPH ??. Why is it 24 hours? I finished work about 4am last year and had to try drive through the centre of town at 20, it’s almost impossible on an empty road. 

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, OTT said:

My view on this is that it only effects the bottom of society, low income alcoholics. Alcoholism is an addiction meaning for an alcoholic bevy is an inelastic good - Price has no bearing on their consumption and they will happily go without to ensure they get their fix. If they have kids then what is the effect? Will they be able to still buy decent food for the kids or will they move down to super noodles so they can save an extra quid or so for drink?

 

All this legislation - 'pasty tax', 'sugar tax' etc. pushes up the cost of living and takes a little more money out your pocket each time.

 

I think its an invasive policy that is little more than a vanity project by Sturgeon. I'm an SNP yes voter but i'm deeply unhappy at this legislation. Independence is a major issue for me but if that gives them carte blanche to implement these utterly ridiculous nanny statesque policies it really leaves me at a loose end. In my opinion the governments role is to provide essential services, not police what you consume. 

 

I'm not a driver but this 20 mph nonsense is another utterly ridiculous policy. I've never seen so much congestion in Edinburgh before. No one voted for it, yet its being thrust upon us. Hardly democratic. 

 

Was it not a manifesto pledge from the parties on the Council? In which case it was voted on by the people. Seem to recall the Edinburgh Tories opposed it, but they don't form the Council Executive. The SNP and Labour do (albeit I now think due to resignations from the SNP the Tories are the biggest group).

[Stuart Lyon]

I can't recall the 20mph being in any party's manifesto! If that was the case why hasn't any party put a congestion charge in its manifesto and just steamrollered the policy through? Very few drivers are obeying the 20mph limit. The police (no blue lights flashing) and buses are the obvious example! Occasionally you get a law abiding citizen who obeys the limit and causes a convoy of cars going at a snails pace. There is a place for 20mph outside schools, hospitals and old people homes but not this blanket approach 24 hours a day.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

5 hours ago, OTT said:

My view on this is that it only effects the bottom of society, low income alcoholics. Alcoholism is an addiction meaning for an alcoholic bevy is an inelastic good - Price has no bearing on their consumption and they will happily go without to ensure they get their fix. If they have kids then what is the effect? Will they be able to still buy decent food for the kids or will they move down to super noodles so they can save an extra quid or so for drink?

 

All this legislation - 'pasty tax', 'sugar tax' etc. pushes up the cost of living and takes a little more money out your pocket each time.

 

I think its an invasive policy that is little more than a vanity project by Sturgeon. I'm an SNP yes voter but i'm deeply unhappy at this legislation. Independence is a major issue for me but if that gives them carte blanche to implement these utterly ridiculous nanny statesque policies it really leaves me at a loose end. In my opinion the governments role is to provide essential services, not police what you consume. 

 

I'm not a driver but this 20 mph nonsense is another utterly ridiculous policy. I've never seen so much congestion in Edinburgh before. No one voted for it, yet its being thrust upon us. Hardly democratic. 

 

Absolutely, been saying this since day one.

The folks who have a drink problem and their drink of choice is say an £8 bottle of wine, well they are not affected by this, their drink of choice is still £8 a bottle and they'll still have a drink problem.

This legislation only affects those at the lower end of the social scale and if they have kids, then it's the kids who will also suffer.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

12 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Well it’s early days, but it appears that minimum pricing has actually seen an increase in volume being drunk. 

 

 

 

It would appear so.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1111861/scottish-law-minimum-alcohol-price-increase-drinking-domestic-violence

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Boris]

14 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

Well it’s early days, but it appears that minimum pricing has actually seen an increase in volume being drunk. 

 

 

As a consequence of minimum pricing? Or a coincidence?

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I doubt that drinking increased due to minimum pricing; that doesn’t seem logical. It’s probably due to events like the World Cup, good summer  etc.

 

However, when a football tournament or sunny day has a greater impact on alcohol intake, than a governmental policy designed to reduce it. I think it’s fair to question it’s apparent effectiveness/suitability.

 

The policy has always been well intentioned but aren’t all policies? Whether it will achieve any real impact on the cultural of drinking in Scotland, should be the question.

 

I don’t think it will. Time will tell and all that.

 

This is key. Policies can't be judged in such a short space of time. Give it 5 years and look at the trends. 

[davemclaren]

12 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

This is key. Policies can't be judged in such a short space of time. Give it 5 years and look at the trends. 

Correct. Anyone that thinks there’s a causal relationship between increasing the price of alcohol and increased consumption has been drinking too much. 

 

I can't say I noticed any price increase in the stuff I drink anyway 

[Justin Z]

I will say it's steeled my resolve to bring alcohol with me back to Scotland anytime I visit the US even more than I used to. As well as buy online in bulk from England. My consumption has maybe not increased but my volume of purchases certainly has--just not from Scottish merchants.

[Toggie88]

Last year was a bumper one for the alcohol industry (world cup, warm summer, record tourist numbers). I doubt the increase in pure amount of alcohol sold is more than rUK. 

 

We've also seen a huge uptake in gin sales, which has more 'pure alcohol' than beer, so there's lots which can account for the increase. 

 

Watch Alcohol Focus Scotland and other government-funded temperance movements call for an increase to 60p though. 

[Toggie88]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

I will say it's steeled my resolve to bring alcohol with me back to Scotland anytime I visit the US even more than I used to. As well as buy online in bulk from England. My consumption has maybe not increased but my volume of purchases certainly has--just not from Scottish merchants.

 

Are you seriously doing this? What are you buying from rUK which is cheap enough to fall under MUP by such a margin that delivery fees alone don't negate any savings? Has to be bulk buying 3 litre bottles of ciders or off-brand vodka to make it worthwhile. 

 

If you're going to that much trouble, it would be much more cost effective to buy from the continent where excise duty is significantly less. Nothing to do with MUP but my family and friends all do an order at Christmas from a vineyard in Tuscany - top quality wine for roughly £5.50 a bottle including delivery. You save because you're buying direct from the producer but also tax on it is paid in Italy. 

[Justin Z]

Just now, Toggie88 said:

 

Are you seriously doing this? What are you buying from rUK which is cheap enough to fall under MUP by such a margin that delivery fees alone don't negate any savings? Has to be bulk buying 3 litre bottles of ciders or off-brand vodka to make it worthwhile. 

 

If you're going to that much trouble, it would be much more cost effective to buy from the continent where excise duty is significantly less. Nothing to do with MUP but my family and friends all do an order at Christmas from a vineyard in Tuscany - top quality wine for roughly £5.50 a bottle including delivery. You save because you're buying direct from the producer but also tax on it is paid in Italy. 

 

It depends for sure and I just play it as a numbers game. There was this really good absinthe liqueur, apple flavoured, that is 33%. £7.49 for a 70cL bottle--if I'm doing the arithmetic right the minimum price in Scotland on that would be £11.55. Bought six bottles to stock up my bar, so a savings of £24, and then shipping was £5, so a net +£19.

 

From the States, I brought over for example a 750mL bottle of 40% bourbon that retailed for $10.99, and a 1.75L bottle of 40% vodka that retailed for $11.99 or £9.90 after tax. The vodka's minimum price here would've been £35.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

I will say it's steeled my resolve to bring alcohol with me back to Scotland anytime I visit the US even more than I used to. As well as buy online in bulk from England. My consumption has maybe not increased but my volume of purchases certainly has--just not from Scottish merchants.

 

No offence but that sounds like the behaviour of high functioning alcoholic. Jesus. 

[AlimOzturk]

Personally I no longer buy cases of lager from super markets due to the increase. I now buy myself 3-4 large bottles of l Staropramem (£1.50 each) and a litre of vodka and just get tanned like i have always done then head to pub for a few pints of Guiness then home. 

[Governor Tarkin]

55 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

No offence but that sounds like the behaviour of high functioning alcoholic. Jesus. 

 

It's quite surprising how little booze you have to consume to be considered a hight functioning alcoholic.

 

If it wasn't for my frequent spells at sea with no access to drink then I'd be right up there.

[AlphonseCapone]

4 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It's quite surprising how little booze you have to consume to be considered a hight functioning alcoholic.

 

If it wasn't for my frequent spells at sea with no access to drink then I'd be right up there.

 

It's definitely undercounted the number of high functioning alcoholics there are, which I don't actually think Justin is especially the "middle class alcoholics" consuming a bottle of wine each night. Replace the bottle of wine with a frosty Jack's and suddenly they become tagged as jakies. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by AlphonseCapone

[Toggie88]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It depends for sure and I just play it as a numbers game. There was this really good absinthe liqueur, apple flavoured, that is 33%. £7.49 for a 70cL bottle--if I'm doing the arithmetic right the minimum price in Scotland on that would be £11.55. Bought six bottles to stock up my bar, so a savings of £24, and then shipping was £5, so a net +£19.

 

From the States, I brought over for example a 750mL bottle of 40% bourbon that retailed for $10.99, and a 1.75L bottle of 40% vodka that retailed for $11.99 or £9.90 after tax. The vodka's minimum price here would've been £35.

 

Yeah, if you're buying in bulk, the savings can add up but I honestly don't drink enough to make it worthwhile, imo. The States is a different ball game because of the different tax rates but I get that some bargains can be found. 

 

I guess you're not the target demographic for the policy though. Policy was to effectively stop cheap cider, I would imagine that regular consumers of which aren't doing the math and bulk buying. In that way, you could argue that the policy has worked but the anecdotal evidence so far is that these people are category switching from cider to spirits. 

[Justin Z]

5 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

No offence but that sounds like the behaviour of high functioning alcoholic. Jesus. 

 

Now that I've bought a house I figure stocking up long-term makes sense. But yes you assumed rightly later on in the thread--I've consumed maybe 2% of this stuff. What's worse, I thought I'd be getting a lot more mileage out of it seeing as I'm in a master's programme at uni! You know, uni students drink. But there's been less use for it than I expected.

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Now that I've bought a house I figure stocking up long-term makes sense. But yes you assumed rightly later on in the thread--I've consumed maybe 2% of this stuff. What's worse, I thought I'd be getting a lot more mileage out of it seeing as I'm in a master's programme at uni! You know, uni students drink. But there's been less use for it than I expected.

 

I think the obvious solution is for you to host a JKB house party. Don't want all that drink gathering dust! 

[Justin Z]

18 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I think the obvious solution is for you to host a JKB house party. Don't want all that drink gathering dust! 

 

Buncha drunken arseholes at my place . . .   I shall * have to think about that . . .

 

Spoiler

* not

 

[milky_26]

2 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

I think the obvious solution is for you to host a JKB house party. Don't want all that drink gathering dust! 

Justin is having an empty?

[AlphonseCapone]

23 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

Justin is having an empty?

 

Yup, you game? 

[Norm]

I'm up for a party at Justin's. 

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, milky_26 said:

Justin is having an empty?

Getting!

[AlphonseCapone]

29 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I'm up for a party at Justin's. 

 

The list grows. 

 

Anyone other takers for @Justin Z's House Party? Drinks included. 

[jambo89]

Ri Alban trying on coats in the corner!

 

I’ll bring the toaster 

[gjcc]

Yasssssss good ol’ Fashioned spring break themed kegger.

Can I bring my pal, Chad Hogan? 

[i8hibsh]

If you order booze through Amazon Prime you pay English prices

 

Get it round ye wee krankie!

 

 

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

If you order booze through Amazon Prime you pay English prices

 

Get it round ye wee krankie!

 

 

The borders on all sides of England will go up soon. You better buy as much as you can, when you can, for crying into.

[AlphonseCapone]

7 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

If you order booze through Amazon Prime you pay English prices

 

Get it round ye wee krankie!

 

 

 

Does she not have access to Amazon like? 

[¼½¾]

8 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

If you order booze through Amazon Prime you pay English prices

 

Get it round ye wee krankie!

 

 

The only time I've had a problem with Prime was when ordering some Westons cider.  It didn't turn up and I later found out the courier had reported it as 'damaged in transit'. Aye right, 'minimum pricing' for the driver more like.

[AlphonseCapone]

If anyone is interested in some proper studies and evidence behind MUP;

 

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/5/e013497

 

[Unknown user]

 

38 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

If anyone is interested in some proper studies and evidence behind MUP;

 

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/5/e013497

 

 

It's an interesting debate. I don't doubt MUP has some effect (fairly minimal fron what I read there) but it does nothing to fix the societal and cultural issues that cause binge drinking in the first place and financially penalises the rest of the population to achieve it's effect.

So is it a good way to tackle the issue? I'd say probably not, as much as I largely support Scottish independence I don't like the SNP's authoritarian approach to this type of issue. 

[AlphonseCapone]

23 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

 

It's an interesting debate. I don't doubt MUP has some effect (fairly minimal fron what I read there) but it does nothing to fix the societal and cultural issues that cause binge drinking in the first place and financially penalises the rest of the population to achieve it's effect.

So is it a good way to tackle the issue? I'd say probably not, as much as I largely support Scottish independence I don't like the SNP's authoritarian approach to this type of issue. 

 

It's definitely interesting. I think there's some evidence there that MUP can have a positive impact but it would be really stupid to only apply this in isolation rather than looking at the numerous other areas that influence problem drinking. 

 

I am torn about how much the state should intervene on these issues. I started a thread last year in relation to the sugar tax and many of the arguments for and against hold for MUP. 

[Unknown user]

32 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

It's definitely interesting. I think there's some evidence there that MUP can have a positive impact but it would be really stupid to only apply this in isolation rather than looking at the numerous other areas that influence problem drinking. 

 

I am torn about how much the state should intervene on these issues. I started a thread last year in relation to the sugar tax and many of the arguments for and against hold for MUP. 

Re your first paragraph, completely agree, and I feel that rather than minimum pricing being a small part of the strategy it's more the sharp end of the battle. 

 

Re the second I'm the same, but I tend to fall on the side that believes we're adults and should make our own decisions for better or for worse. I basically approve of government initiatives that aim to help, but have a problem with those that aim to shape the population. 

 

There's a big difference between "we'll educate individuals to make better decisions, improve society to create less alcoholics and put a support system in place to help those that need it," and "we'll make it difficult for poor alcoholics"

[ri Alban]

2018 had the lowest Alcohol sales in 25 years.

[Jambo, Goodbye]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-48675313

[Justin Z]

From the article

 

· Since 2010 the volume of pure alcohol sold per adult through supermarkets and off-licences has fallen by 9% in Scotland.

. . .

According to Mr Majid, another consequence of the price rise has been a sharp rise in shoplifting.

 

Colour me unconvinced.

[Cade]

Shoplifting is the fault of a store for not having items securely stored or placed within full view of staff.

 

Besides, 50p a unit only affects a tiny fraction of drinks. The cheap manky tramp/teenager ciders and a few other rancid beverages.

 

No other drinks got affected. 

[Better call Saul]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

Shoplifting is the fault of a store for not having items securely stored or placed within full view of staff.

 

Besides, 50p a unit only affects a tiny fraction of drinks. The cheap manky tramp/teenager ciders and a few other rancid beverages.

 

No other drinks got affected. 

Shoplifters steal everything and you cant put everything in full view of staff and even if you could you can't expect them to be able to watch the items 24/7 of Thier shift .

[superjack]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Shoplifting is the fault of a store for not having items securely stored or placed within full view of staff.

 

Besides, 50p a unit only affects a tiny fraction of drinks. The cheap manky tramp/teenager ciders and a few other rancid beverages.

 

No other drinks got affected. 

A bottle of spirits was affected. I now can't get a bottle of whisky for under £14.

[Morgan]

7 hours ago, ri Alban said:

2018 had the lowest Alcohol sales in 25 years.

Not where you stay though.

 

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Shoplifting is the fault of a store for not having items securely stored or placed within full view of staff.

 

Besides, 50p a unit only affects a tiny fraction of drinks. The cheap manky tramp/teenager ciders and a few other rancid beverages.

 

No other drinks got affected. 

 

Shouldn't effect anyone who drinks responsibley. As you pointed out only a small number of neds would be effected. 

[Morgan]

4 hours ago, Cade said:

Shoplifting is the fault of a store for not having items securely stored or placed within full view of staff.

You can’t seriously believe that, Cade.  Do you?

 

Shoplifting is completely the fault of the scumbags that do the said shoplifting.  

 

Any shop, regardless of size, can’t ‘keep an eye’ on every product on every shelf, every second of the day.

 

They also shouldn’t have to.  

 

[ri Alban]

49 minutes ago, Morgan said:

Not where you stay though.