Minimum unit pricing

[DVB]

Read this earlier:

 

• A 310cl bottle of Frosty Jack’s cider contains 22.5 units of alcohol. It currently costs £3.59, but will go up to £11.25.

[Rocco_Jambo]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

All the medical experts support it, good enough for me. The biggest opponents are companies not wanting to lose profits.

 

Scotland has a shite relationship with alcohol.

 

The multi national supermarkets and their shareholders will be creaming themselves at this windfall.

[Rocco_Jambo]

9 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

Think it was confirmed on tv tonight that under current plans a bottle of cheap cider (3L jungle juice) could go from say £2.50/£3 to £6/£7. Whilst thecheaper end of the Prosecco shelf wouldn't be hit at all - £8 a bottle would remain £8.

 

A reasonable jump. It'll hit cheap spirits and high alcohol content cheap wine (Glens and Lambrini?).

 

However beer won't be massively hit, Prosecco/champagne won't and higher quality spirits won't either.

 

In effect... does this not really just force a change in what you buy rather than the amount drank?

 

I'm skeptical on this. I think I'm right in saying the major public health concern on drinking is "middle class" binging at home. To me the solution seems simple: make social drinking in bars more affordable and force people out to drink rather than unsociable and uncontrollable drinking at home.

 

Beer will be massively hit. We can expect to see at about a 33% increase in the price of standard lager/beer in the supermarkets.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

All the medical experts support it, good enough for me. The biggest opponents are companies not wanting to lose profits.

 

Scotland has a shite relationship with alcohol.

 

Think that's a bit of skewed vision. The policy isn't a tax. Money won't flow to the government purse to be spent in public health programs to combat drimk related health issues. It's merely a government boost to prices to make things attractive - like with cigarettes and soon sugar.

 

The money raised (folk will still buy booze in large quantities) will flow straight to the big supermarkets coffers, to the likes of Diageo shareholders and to the wee off licences. 

 

The reasons for the challenge were: 

 

1. European Commission advice to the government said it was  a disproportionate measure to the freedom of goods in the single market to tackle a public health issue. Fearing artificial price rises would impede trade between member states in the free market  (This was rejected by the Supreme Court today).

 

2. Strangely the SWA called for tax rises as being a better way forward. Adding Minimum Pricing would be ineffective in tackling alcohol misuse, penalise responsible and poorer drinkers, and damage an export industry worth more than £4bn to the Scottish economy every year. (Interestingly an industry touted by the SNP as being a vehicle to independence being sustainable in the immediate future).

 

So the reasons aren't simply SWA members losing money - the EC advice had a lot to play here. 

[JamboX2]

Just now, Rocco_Jambo said:

 

Beer will be massively hit. We can expect to see at about a 33% increase in the price of standard lager/beer in the supermarkets.

 

So I buy wine for the house now... see this is why I'm skeptical on the policy as I reckon it'll shift attitudes on what people buy not necessarily to drink or not.

[Rocco_Jambo]

Just now, JamboX2 said:

 

So I buy wine for the house now... see this is why I'm skeptical on the policy as I reckon it'll shift attitudes on what people buy not necessarily to drink or not.

 

I agree. The assertion put forth by the SNP that this will only really affect the high strength cheap drinks like frosty jack or Tesco value cider though is simply untrue.  This will affect the price most medium strength beers and ciders in the supermarkets.

 

If the prices of the standard products go up then the premium products aren't going to still be sold at the same price. They will also go up in price to represent their premium place in the market.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Rarely ever buy multi pack supermarket stuff, as for Tennents Lager   

 

 

Yip, I usually buy mine from a company in Kings Lynn, they have recently just got over 150 new Belgian beers in stock, even for me that might take me a few months to work my way through them, yum yum.

Have to admit I'm a bit partial to a nice Abbey Beer.

 

 

Link please.....I'm off to Brussels next weekend to see what I've not tried yet in Cafe Delerium

[Doctor FinnBarr]

3 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Rarely ever buy multi pack supermarket stuff, as for Tennents Lager   

 

 

Yip, I usually buy mine from a company in Kings Lynn, they have recently just got over 150 new Belgian beers in stock, even for me that might take me a few months to work my way through them, yum yum.

Have to admit I'm a bit partial to a nice Abbey Beer.

 

 

Link please.....I'm off to Brussels next weekend to see what I've not tried yet in Cafe Delerium

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 hours ago, bikerjambo said:

 

Link please.....I'm off to Brussels next weekend to see what I've not tried yet in Cafe Delerium

 

http://www.beersofeurope.co.uk/

 

Huge selection of World beers from Argentina to Ukraine and everywhere in between.

[Unknown user]

12 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

Like putting a plaster over a knife wound. 

 

Won't solve the main problems that causes anti social behavior.

 

SNP aren't doing themselves any favours winning back the lost voters. 

This. I don't doubt it has the best of intentions behind it but it does nothing to tackle the causes of alcoholism and basically just punishes a hell of a lot of people - and I'm not much of a drinker. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

Think it was confirmed on tv tonight that under current plans a bottle of cheap cider (3L jungle juice) could go from say £2.50/£3 to £6/£7. Whilst thecheaper end of the Prosecco shelf wouldn't be hit at all - £8 a bottle would remain £8.

 

A reasonable jump. It'll hit cheap spirits and high alcohol content cheap wine (Glens and Lambrini?).

 

However beer won't be massively hit, Prosecco/champagne won't and higher quality spirits won't either.

 

In effect... does this not really just force a change in what you buy rather than the amount drank?

 

I'm skeptical on this. I think I'm right in saying the major public health concern on drinking is "middle class" binging at home. To me the solution seems simple: make social drinking in bars more affordable and force people out to drink rather than unsociable and uncontrollable drinking at home.

 

That's the bit I'm not convinced about as I suspect the retailers will try and cash in.

 

A standard bottle of spirits at 40% alc has 28 UK units, so under the new minimum pricing the cheapest that bottle will cost is £14.

I regularly pay £20-£30 for a bottle of good rum, which has 28 units in it, so you would think that minimum pricing won't affect it,  I remain skeptical about that, only time will tell.

 

[Jambomb]

Those that that this is supposed to target will still drink and will find the money some way or another causing them further issues, and the fact it’s not a tax and will go straight to the Supermarkets bank accounts is incredible, additional tax to fund education and healthcare I could understand but this!! Another SNP headline look at me policy with absoletly no substance.

 

a bit like the 5p carrier bags, why was that not a tax or a stipulation that it must go to charities - supermarkets have made a killing  again, 10p bags now that don’t have any of the guidlines for charity donations.

[JamboX2]

51 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

That's the bit I'm not convinced about as I suspect the retailers will try and cash in.

 

A standard bottle of spirits at 40% alc has 28 UK units, so under the new minimum pricing the cheapest that bottle will cost is £14.

I regularly pay £20-£30 for a bottle of good rum, which has 28 units in it, so you would think that minimum pricing won't affect it,  I remain skeptical about that, only time will tell.

 

 

It's a massive cash-cow for the supermarkets. Massive.

 

Taxing it would've been wiser. Albeit I get at the time they had limited scope to pass new taxes. Now they can... makes me think that the policy (whilst well intentioned) has been overtaken by time.

[Boris]

I think that there is a long term view to be taken here.

 

If, as it seems, that the drink most affected by minimum pricing is of the cheap, heavily laden with alcohol, "jungle juice" variety then it's not about stopping those with drink problems right now (although it may help), but rather to prevent future generations from going down this route.

 

If you look at the smoking ban and the effect that has had on public health, it really is far more successful than was first expected.  It is quite possible this will have similar success.

 

As I saw posted on social media, "The world's going to end because cheap cider has been made more expensive".

 

Similarly, the argument with the supermarkets, if they all simply hike prices using this as an excuse they will be found out.  Then one supermarket starts selling at current prices, and hoovers up the trade.  Market forces, and all that.

 

Moving on, the Welsh government is interested in this as is Westminster, iirc.  Going back to the long term view, things are not going to change overnight, but eventually they hopefully will.

 

[Craig_]

24 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It's a massive cash-cow for the supermarkets. Massive.

 

Taxing it would've been wiser. Albeit I get at the time they had limited scope to pass new taxes. Now they can... makes me think that the policy (whilst well intentioned) has been overtaken by time.

 

Possibly, although they'll now not be able to use loss-leaders to get people in the door.

 

Besides, I buy most of my booze online these days, usually from south of the border. Not sure how the legalities will play out for that...

[Do The Dance]

Like Boris says, this isn’t about the current alcoholics, as you’re not going to cure them by putting prices up. It’s a tool to discourage future generations from falling into the same traps. Education by parents and schools need to help with this too. I don’t know if nutrition already falls into P.E, but it should.

 

Supermarkets may well try and rise other premium prices around it, but as also mentioned other companies will always undercut them. One of the reasons for not making it a tax, I guess.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

36 minutes ago, Boris said:

I think that there is a long term view to be taken here.

 

If, as it seems, that the drink most affected by minimum pricing is of the cheap, heavily laden with alcohol, "jungle juice" variety then it's not about stopping those with drink problems right now (although it may help), but rather to prevent future generations from going down this route.

 

If you look at the smoking ban and the effect that has had on public health, it really is far more successful than was first expected.  It is quite possible this will have similar success.

 

As I saw posted on social media, "The world's going to end because cheap cider has been made more expensive".

 

Similarly, the argument with the supermarkets, if they all simply hike prices using this as an excuse they will be found out.  Then one supermarket starts selling at current prices, and hoovers up the trade.  Market forces, and all that.

 

Moving on, the Welsh government is interested in this as is Westminster, iirc.  Going back to the long term view, things are not going to change overnight, but eventually they hopefully will.

 

 

Seen a report on the news last night (can't remember which channel), anyway this was the angle they were reporting, that it's a long-term project.

Basically (and I might be wrong with the figures here) they were saying that in year 1 it will save 5 lives a month (or something like that), but by year 10 it will be 120 lives per month or year.

It is hoped that it will discourage the young jaky's from getting blootered out of their minds for £3 or £4 on cheap 7.5% cider, and by doing so it is hoped that they won't evolve into alcoholics whilst still in their teens, which if minimum pricing does help to cut back on this happening, then it can only be a good thing.

 

[Locky]

It's ****ing maximum pricing we need to bring in.

 

I've only just started to accept having to pay £4 a pint places but a fiver is just scandalous.

[Francis Albert]

Will we have border controls to stop smuggling and private booze runs to Carlisle and Berwick? There is a decent profit margin for anyone with a decent sized van.

 

As someone said booze is incredibly cheap in many Mediterranean countries but there is no "drink culture" there.

 

Also worth looking across the pond to consider the opioid epidemic that is destroying many communities over there, suggesting that booze is not the fundamental problem,  but more of a symptom.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Thunderstruck]

54 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

It's a massive cash-cow for the supermarkets. Massive.

 

Taxing it would've been wiser. Albeit I get at the time they had limited scope to pass new taxes. Now they can... makes me think that the policy (whilst well intentioned) has been overtaken by time.

 

The Exchequer still wins through VAT if the overall sale price increases. I’m sure Mr Hammond will be grateful. 

 

On the overall aim, the Scandanavian countries already have very expensive booze and, in the case of Norway, Vinminopolet (state-run monopoly) sells everything above 4.5%abv. These countries are not known for temperance or lack of alcohol-related problems.  

 

Canada has minimum pricing but it seems to have done little to dampen the resolve of Canadians to by booze (with beer the biggest seller) if Canadian Govt stats are an indication:

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/160510/dq160510b-eng.htm

 

 

This is is one view on the impact:

https://health.spectator.co.uk/stop-telling-us-that-minimum-alcohol-pricing-works-in-canada-its-nonsense/

 

and another:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/30/canada-state-controlled-drinking-health

 

I suspect that this will be another case of “where there is a will there is a way”.

 

 

[Boris]

Just now, Thunderstruck said:

 

The Exchequer still wins through VAT if the overall sale price increases. I’m sure Mr Hammond will be grateful. 

 

 

Isn't VAT devolved now?  Albeit the rate can't be set by Holyrood, but sure I read that VAT receipts taken in Scotland go to the Scottish Government.

[Thunderstruck]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Isn't VAT devolved now?  Albeit the rate can't be set by Holyrood, but sure I read that VAT receipts taken in Scotland go to the Scottish Government.

 

I may have missed a change but I thought that a straight 50% of VAT receipts were reassigned but overall control of VAT was one of the “post-Brexit” changes sought by Sturgeon. 

 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Brian Dundas said:

If this is going to result in a huge windfall for the Supermarkets and Alcohol companies, why didn't they use these prices before now?

 

Because it would spoil the narrative.

[Boris]

14 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I may have missed a change but I thought that a straight 50% of VAT receipts were reassigned but overall control of VAT was one of the “post-Brexit” changes sought by Sturgeon. 

 

 

You could well be right!

[Rocco_Jambo]

1 hour ago, Brian Dundas said:

If this is going to result in a huge windfall for the Supermarkets and Alcohol companies, why didn't they use these prices before now?

 

I'm not sure if this is a serious question but if it is then because if one supermarket or alcohol company started to charge at least 50p a unit of alcohol then no one would buy from them. If all supermarket or alcohol companies raised their prices on alcohol to at least 50p a unit of alcohol then it would be a clear case of price fixing and they would all be in breach of competition laws.

[Rocco_Jambo]

1 minute ago, Brian Dundas said:

But they do all charge the same at the moment, although I accept there is some merit in your argument, however if Cider was going to gain more money at £10 a bottle than £4 then the manufacturer would raise the prices.

 

If the total spend on alcohol goes up it does not mean that the total profit has gone up.

 

 

They do all charge roughly the same like any other product because they will have similar costs and profit margin and prices rise roughly about the same because they all have the similar costs.

 

If all manufacturers or supermarkets could agree that they would not sell a case of lager for less than 12.80 or a bottle of vodka for less than 14 quid then they probably would. But it would be a clear case of price fixing and be illegal. In this case the government has fixed the price for them which will result in a large increase in profit for them.

 

 

[Darren]

3 hours ago, Craig_ said:

 

Possibly, although they'll now not be able to use loss-leaders to get people in the door.

 

Besides, I buy most of my booze online these days, usually from south of the border. Not sure how the legalities will play out for that...

 

I don't think you are the kind of drinker this legislation is targeting.

[Rocco_Jambo]

1 minute ago, Brian Dundas said:

I think it is very unlikely to increase profit for anyone, it will change what brand/type of drink people buy and over time the plan is it will result in less being purchased.

 

On the last part time will tell, but I think it is safe to assume that if you currently buy brand A for £3.50 you are not going to continue to buy it for £5, you are going to buy the brand that is currently £5. Cheaper end of that market brands are going to disappear as they will not be purchased. As others have pointed out it will also affect certain one off promotions, but I can't see it making anyone more money, except perhaps in the very short term.

 

Of course it will increase profit. If the price of most beers go up about 30% then that's an extra few quid in the pocket for someone on each item bought. People who drink ciders like Strongbow, thatchers, Stowford Press etc. aren't just going to start buying single bottles of rasberry Kopparbergs. People who drink Tennents, Stella, Grolsch, Heineken etc. aren't going to suddenly start buying imported Belgium stuff. 

 

 

[Rocco_Jambo]

13 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Is it going up by 30% though? How many cans of Tennents are sold for less than 85p?? Like I said it will cut down on promotions that reduce prices so instead of getting a case of cheap tennents you will buy the case of Stella or Grolsch

 

 

Yes. Case of 12 tennents can be got for 8 quid will now be 10.80. Case of 12 stella for a tenner will now be 12.60. All the ones you mention will go up in price. The ones that don't will likely be priced higher by the supermarkets to find their premium place in the market.

[peter_hmfc]

Seeing borderline alcoholics lose their shit over this on social media is absolutely hilarious.

 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

8 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

http://www.beersofeurope.co.uk/

 

Huge selection of World beers from Argentina to Ukraine and everywhere in between.

 

Ah, yes. I've actually used them before, thought you'd maybe discovered another site. Good service from them though.

[Space Mackerel]

When Wales and then England follow suit like they did with the smoking ban and 5p on carriers bags, the Brit Nats on here will stop whinging on about this. 

[Francis Albert]

49 minutes ago, peter_hmfc said:

Seeing borderline alcoholics lose their shit over this on social media is absolutely hilarious.

 

Alcoholism is a disease. I am not sure why alcoholics, borderline or otherwise are a source of amusement.

 

The proposals will do nothing to stop alcoholics, borderline or otherwise, from drinking, Nor will they stop people seeking their kicks, if they are so inclined, from doing so in one way or another, some ways even more dangerous than alcohol and with even wider social consequences.

 

But the SNP and the Scottish Government gets another tick for its progressiveness which is the point.

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

I wonder if drug dealers will see an opportunity here to ensnare yet another generation of youngsters. Didn't they flood the city with very cheap heroin in the 80's creating the drug problem we know have? If the cider is too pricy will the kids seek a cheaper way to get blasted?

[JamboX2]

6 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Because it would spoil the narrative.

 

Did the supermarkets stand against it?

 

Certainly the Scotch Whiskey guys did.

[Cade]

41 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

I wonder if drug dealers will see an opportunity here to ensnare yet another generation of youngsters. Didn't they flood the city with very cheap heroin in the 80's creating the drug problem we know have? If the cider is too pricy will the kids seek a cheaper way to get blasted?

"The only way tae keep the weans aff the drugs is tae gie them cheap bevvy, eh but?"

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

2 minutes ago, Cade said:

"The only way tae keep the weans aff the drugs is tae gie them cheap bevvy, eh but?"

 

 

 

That's not what i'm saying you idiot but you know that.

[The Comedian]

The hand of nannying.

 

[AlimOzturk]

So, if I order from day Amazon will I still have to pay the minimum pricing ? How does that work?

[Doctor FinnBarr]

14 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

So, if I order from day Amazon will I still have to pay the minimum pricing ? How does that work?

 

It'll not come into effect until spring next year at the earliest, fill yer boots with Amazon til then

[AlimOzturk]

Just now, bikerjambo said:

 

It'll not come into effect until spring next year at the earliest, fill yer boots with Amazon til then

 

Aii I know that. Just wondering when if does come into effect. If we can just get it online for cheaper then it sort of defeats the purpose of the minimum pricing. 

[Doctor FinnBarr]

4 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Aii I know that. Just wondering when if does come into effect. If we can just get it online for cheaper then it sort of defeats the purpose of the minimum pricing. 

 

At a guess no. Do you actually buy drink from Amazon? No idea they actually did it, I just go to Tesco.

[Rocco_Jambo]

7 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

 

Aii I know that. Just wondering when if does come into effect. If we can just get it online for cheaper then it sort of defeats the purpose of the minimum pricing. 

 

I think it will depend. As I understand it you need a Scottish alcohol licence where the dispatch premises is in Scotland. So if you were to buy from Amazon or a supermarket presumably it would be dispatched from a warehouse in Scotland which would have a licence with the new conditions applied.

 

If you bought alcohol from somewhere that dispatched from outside Scotland they wouldn't have to have a Scottish alcohol licence and the new conditions would not apply.

[peter_hmfc]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Alcoholism is a disease. I am not sure why alcoholics, borderline or otherwise are a source of amusement.

 

The proposals will do nothing to stop alcoholics, borderline or otherwise, from drinking, Nor will they stop people seeking their kicks, if they are so inclined, from doing so in one way or another, some ways even more dangerous than alcohol and with even wider social consequences.

 

But the SNP and the Scottish Government gets another tick for its progressiveness which is the point.

 

 

 

"Alcoholism is a disease" . Oh you!

 

My sympathy is in short supply for them .

[AlimOzturk]

8 minutes ago, peter_hmfc said:

 

"Alcoholism is a disease" . Oh you!

 

My sympathy is in short supply for them .

Alcoholism is an Addiction. Addiction is a disease and to laugh at it is beyond reprehensible. 

[Unknown user]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Alcoholism is a disease. I am not sure why alcoholics, borderline or otherwise are a source of amusement.

 

The proposals will do nothing to stop alcoholics, borderline or otherwise, from drinking, Nor will they stop people seeking their kicks, if they are so inclined, from doing so in one way or another, some ways even more dangerous than alcohol and with even wider social consequences.

 

But the SNP and the Scottish Government gets another tick for its progressiveness which is the point.

 

 

I didn't really see the point until someone brought up the likely longer term effect above, I get it. It seems mental to force the manufacturers to charge more though, taxation would clearly be a better approach if they HAVE to go down that road. 

 

5 minutes ago, peter_hmfc said:

 

"Alcoholism is a disease" . Oh you!

 

My sympathy is in short supply for them .

Alcoholism IS a disease, and one which has destroyed the lives of family members and friends of mine, not to mention their immediate families. But you know that, you rubbish Katie Hopkins you

[peter_hmfc]

6 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

Alcoholism is an Addiction. Addiction is a disease and to laugh at it is beyond reprehensible. 

 

Choosing to carry on feeding your own destructive addiction to the severe detriment of your family and friends is "beyond reprehensible".

 

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

Alcoholism IS a disease, and one which has destroyed the lives of family members and friends of mine, not to mention their immediate families. But you know that, you rubbish Katie Hopkins you

 

Yeah that's me like... "burned" now I think? Is it not like "Oooh burn",  then I'm like "Oh no"? That's what the kids do on the internet these days. Oh no.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, bikerjambo said:

 

At a guess no. Do you actually buy drink from Amazon? No idea they actually did it, I just go to Tesco.

 

I bought a Mauritian Rum just the other week from Amazon, one which I hadn't seen nor couldn't get elsewhere.

 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, peter_hmfc said:

 

Choosing to carry on feeding your own destructive addiction to the severe detriment of your family and friends is "beyond reprehensible".

 

 

Yeah that's me like... "burned" now I think? Is it not like "Oooh burn",  then I'm like "Oh no"? That's what the kids do on the internet these days. Oh no.

For an alcoholic it is not a choice. The levels of ignorance about alcoholism on this thread are amazing. The idea that alcoholism is about "jakeys" getting a fix from cheap booze is so wide of the mark ... but it seems to be informing the Scottish Government's policy. The main reason why alcoholism is putting increasing pressure on NHS resources is that people who grew up in a culture where excessive alcohol consumption was the norm have continued to live that way but have survived long enough for the consequences to catch up with them. The fact is most young people  today drink less than their parents or grandparents, who continue with old habits. The real problem drinkers won't be affected by minimum pricing.

[peter_hmfc]

16 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

For an alcoholic it is not a choice. The levels of ignorance about alcoholism on this thread are amazing. The idea that alcoholism is about "jakeys" getting a fix from cheap booze is so wide of the mark ... but it seems to be informing the Scottish Government's policy. The main reason why alcoholism is putting increasing pressure on NHS resources is that people who grew up in a culture where excessive alcohol consumption was the norm have continued to live that way but have survived long enough for the consequences to catch up with them. The fact is most young people  today drink less than their parents or grandparents, who continue with old habits. The real problem drinkers won't be affected by minimum pricing.

 

No-one said it was though (at least I never did).